Science and the Islamic world --- The quest for rapprochement

Re: # 474

correction 1000%

why is it insulting jangs? the idea that there is a hindu/idol place which is being actively supported by the pakistani govt even as a token gesture is that in itself bad? I agree that the tolerance shouldnt stop at katas raj but thats different.

yar i find the shyte about katas raj really insulting. that is a tourist shyte...noone goes there, there are no hindus around like for hundreds of miles.

then there is also the jernail who oversees the nankana sahib..

re: PM # 472

"you would've written the last two..."

People like Voltaire (and there were/are many many like him) did and do write similar stuff about Christianity. Was/is that without cause, or out of mere ignorance? :)

"this is because they are Indian muslims, who are certainly not pure by any arabic standards" ...arabs are in no position to judge who is a true muslim or not, only God can do that.

laddu the hindu population of pakistan went down by maybe 100% after partition .....how could there be more temples in pakistan now than before? More news from non indians, muslims who do not hate idolators :

Idols from India for restored Hindu temples in Pakistan
Karachi News.Net
Saturday 20th January, 2007 (IANS)

A three-member team of archaeological experts left here Saturday for India to search for idols of Hindu deities to be installed in restored temples in Pakistan.

The team from the Punjab Archaeology Department will visit the Taj Mahal and Fatehpur Sikri in Agra, Ajmer Sharif and Pushkar in Rajasthan, Varanasi in Uttar Pradesh and Aurangabad and the Ajanta Caves in Maharashtra over the next 11 days.

The team is headed by Oriya Maqbool Jan, the department's director general, who told The Daily Times that the main purpose of the tour would be to gather information about the deities, their rituals and decoration of the temples.

He said pictures and idols of the gods would be bought from India and designers hired to prepare replicas.

The move follows the near-completion of the restoration work, carried out at India's request, of the historic Katas Raj temples in Punjab province. The Archaeological Survey of India had sent an expert there in 2005.

The Katas site houses the Satgraha, a group of seven ancient temples, remains of a Buddhist stupa, a few medieval temples, havelis (old houses) and some recently constructed temples, scattered around a pond considered holy by Hindus.

Pakistan has decided to place idols of Hindu gods in the seven temples and restore them to their original state to attract visitors, Jan said. The project for the conservation of the Katas temples and stupas would be completed next month.

The budget allocated for the project is Rs.51.06 million.

Most of the temples, located some 40 km from the modern city of Chakwal in Pakistan's Punjab, were built during the reign of Hindu kings. The earliest of the Katas Raj temples dates back to the latter half of the 6th century AD.

The temples at Katas are mostly constructed on square platforms. The elevation of the sub shrines seems to form a series of cornices with small rows of pillars, crowned by a ribbed dome.

The Ramachandra temple is situated to the east of the Hari Singh Haveli and is closed from all sides except for an entrance on the east. The double-storied structure has eight rooms of various dimensions on the ground floor and a staircase at the south leading to the first floor. The temple has two jharokas (balconies) that have been severely damaged.

The Hanuman temple is on the western extreme of a high rectangular enclosure with entrances on the south and the north. The temple's ceiling is undecorated, and lime-plastered. The Shiva temple is also built on a square platform. Its entrance is a recessed round arch with faint cusps and a rectangular opening to the north.

Katas Raj temple complex is believed to date back to the Mahabharata era. There are stories about the Pandavas spending time there during their long exile. The lake in the complex is believed to have magical powers and supposed to be where Yudhishtir defeated the Yaksha with his wisdom to bring his brothers back to life.

India is making similar contribution to the restoration of the Angkor Vat temple complex in Cambodia. Revered in India, the temple was visited earlier by India's former deputy prime minister L.K. Advani.

laddu #459 you write If you believe that most of the Pakistanis are ok with idolators like me then I would love to see some idols and temples constructed in Pakistan.

That would be excellent, and I have no doubt that you will find the trip to Pakistan will reward your effort with a new appreciation of Pakistanis as a friendly, hospitable people. Mantolives, who spars frequently with Indians on chowk on political issues, has in fact played a welcoming host to at least two visiting Indian chowkies in Lahore (Stuka and Dost Mittar), and I have no doubt will be glad to show you around the city he is quite rightly proud of. While hindu temples were neglected no doubt over the past 60 years (and after babri masjid, a few misguided fanatics unfortunately attacked some long-abandoned temples in Pakistan), I understand some of them are being restored as more and more hindu visitors come to Pakistan. Perhaps you could even contribute to their upkeep when visiting them - and this way everyone is happy. You get to see hindu temples restored and visited once again, Pakistan has even more to offer tourists visiting Pakistan than before.

And peace in the sub-continent means the true benefits of globalization pour in over time to the entire region - today, I understand India generates only a few million dollars per year in tourist revenues, and which is less than even a single city in europe (like Stuttgart, home to the mercedes benz and porsche) does. So - there is plenty of room for both India and Pakistan to do well in today's world, regardless of the smug fantasy-land people like chaltahi (see my post to him below) live in. But first, we must learn to use our own eyes and minds to understand the ground realities that hindu and muslim ideologues ignore in pronounding their judgements. And basic reality is - Pakistanis are not the bloodthirsty enemies of "idol-worshippers", and indeed are friendly and hospitable to visitors; and peace in the sub-continent is of sigificant national interest to both India and Pakistan.

#463 chaltahai: I dont live in the same world you live in, that is for sure. What I am describing in point 2 of my post #456 to which you object is the real world. These may be minor considerations in the fantasy South Asia you have created, but these are significant factors that no policy maker in delhi burdened with the realities of the subcontinent could afford to ignore.

ajeya: #469
I'm pretty sure that, had you been living in the 18th century, you would've written the last two paragraphs of your post almost verbatim... except changing "Islam" for "Christianity". Heck you might do it living in Britain through the 70s-- replacing it with "Catholicism".

#466 Posted by cliftonbridge

[Laddu the world is full of muslims who are really good friends with idol worshippers like yourself, how can you possibly not know that? ]

But they also make donations into the jihad-boxes at their mosques and community centers.

#455 Posted by PM

["My fore fathers were murdered just because they did not believe in the muslim point of view about a so called 'formless" god.

Ludds, Unless you're Sindhi, you can't even begin to make a case based on historical facts. ]


Really? And what history books have YOU been studying?

Here's a suggestion for you. I'll debate this with you with facts. If you prove me wrong, I'll stop posting of Chowk. And if you are wrong, you do the same.

Deal?

#458 Posted by PM

[So breathe a little easy, my friend... the average Muslim is not out to dimmhiize you these days. ]

Not that they could dhimmi-ize me. Hindus are scared of Islamists not like one would be scared of a lion or a tiger, but more like how you would be scared of a scorpion hiding in your closet - that could bite you when you are least expecting it.

Islam and science will never coexist happily. Therefore Muslims will continue to get weaker economically and otherwise. However, the insidious ideology might persist. Muhammad still lies coiled up in the brains of the mullas and the Islamists. It is a constantly-present threat to humanity. The human race finally is attuned to this fact, and therefore this ideology will be countered wherever it raises it's ugly head. But the problem is that, like all evil, it has to be kept under control - eternal vigilance is the price we pay for freedom.

I hope Islam would be dealt a death-blow, but that may not happen. Good and evil are with us to stay. So Islam, Naziism, Fascism etc., along with goodness and humanity, might never disappear completely.

Re: # 466

Well I have some good muslim friends who do not mind my going to temples and keep idols at my home.

As I said, this is because they are Indian muslims, who are certainly not pure by any arabic standards.

Re: # 465

How many Swami Narayan temples were built after independence (1947) in Pakistan?

Rathar how many temples were built after PAkistani nation came into existence?

Please provide some information.

Laddu the world is full of muslims who are really good friends with idol worshippers like yourself, how can you possibly not know that?

ranjit you are right :

KARACHI: Holi festival celebrated


By Our Staff Reporter

KARACHI, March 6: Like elsewhere in the world, the Hindu community celebrated the annual festival of colours, Holi, here on Saturday. The children threw colours on each other and also visited their relatives. The festival is celebrated to mark the victory of good forces over the evil ones.

Areas like the one near Swami Narayan Temple or those near the Ranchhore Lines, where the Hindus live in considerable numbers, wore a festive look with colours flowing in the air.

Special prayers were offered in all temples, with the main prayer meeting at Swami Narayan Temple.

Religious scholars in their sermons highlighted the importance of Holi and urged people to adopt the path of goodness. Prayers were also offered for the solidarity of Pakistan and prosperity of the community.

Bhajans were also sung on the occasion. Food was distributed freely among the devotees.

The Adviser on Housing and Town planning, Waseem Akhtar, visited the Soldier Bazaar Temple to greet the Hindu community on their festival.