Science and the Islamic world --- The quest for rapprochement

O Ye miserable hindus this is what you do when you have power, that is why God denied it to you for a thousand years, you are worst then the worst Barbarian who called himself muslim i.e. Timur Lang:

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On January 10, 1993, Hajirabi Qureishi saw her husband and eldest son dragged from her house by Shiv Sainiks who used to hang around the local Sena shakha. When she tried to stop the sainiks, they pushed her off the parapet and she lost consciousness. She never saw her husband and son again.

Much before his inquiry into the 1992-93 Mumbai riots was complete, Justice Srikrishna wrote a letter to the government recommending immediate payment of compensation for missing persons in cases that he had personally investigated. The Qureishis headed that list. Hajirabi should have received Rs 4,00,000; instead she received Rs 2,00,000 eight years later for her husband. Compensation for her son Saleem Qureishi continues to form the subject matter of petitions being heard for the ump-teenth time in the Supreme Court.

Unable to cope with memories of their disappearance, Hajirabi left the Hindu-Muslim chawl that had been home for years to live in a Muslim ghetto. Every known and unknown Muslim organisation had its offices there, including SIMI. Yet they could not recruit Hajira's son Rizwan, his father's favourite.

Farooq Mapkar should have been an ideal candidate for SIMI. Shot in his shoulder on January 10, 1993, while praying inside a mosque, this bank employee saw a namazi being shot dead at point-blank range despite coming out of the mosque with his hands up. Along with the other namazis, Farooq was charged under Section 307.

Fourteen years later, Farooq continues to take leave from his job to attend court hearings in a case declared false by the Srikrishna commission. Contrast this with the case of sub-inspector Nikhil Kapse. The commission found him guilty for unprovoked firing that killed six innocent Muslims. But he was exonerated by a bunch of policemen entrusted with implementing the commission's findings.

The policemen didn't think it necessary to talk to those who testified in front of the commission about the incident involving Kapse. In these 14 years, Kapse hasn't faced a day's suspension. More than Farooq and Rizwan, Abdullah would have made the ideal jehadi. As a 12-year-old, he saw his handicapped father being dragged down the stairs of the madrassa where he taught and shot, pleading for water as he lay dying. Abdullah continued to live in the same madrassa. Eight years later, he joined the legal battle to put behind bars the policemen charged with murder for this incident. When he lost, the entire madrassa felt betrayed.

Even while lashing out at the government's indulgence towards policemen charged with murder, Abdullah was packing his bags for further studies in Deoband. He had graduated from his madrassa with flying colours, with full marks in logic. "Why don't you study law", i asked, "you could fight for your father". "My world is the hereafter", he replied. "He can't get involved in all this", added his teachers.

Mumbai's riot orphans have grown up deprived of their childhood, seen their mothers struggle alone - and often fail - to give them the education their fathers desired for them. They've seen those who led the violent mobs become ministers. A sitting judge pronounced these policemen guilty; his report became an election issue and made ministers out of nobodies, but has yet to be acted upon.

They've seen, over the last year, those who took revenge on their behalf by killing innocent Hindus, being made to pay, some even with life sentences.

Last week, as two Muslim accused in the July 11 train blasts in Mumbai confessed on TV (by a mysterious coincidence, all channels got hold of the footage exactly a year after the blasts), the news anchors screamed: "This man not only betrayed his nation, but also humanity. Doesn't your blood boil when you see this traitor"?

Narendra Modi could be accused of having done the same. No channel asks these questions about him. These double standards are now part of being a Muslim in India's "vibrant" democracy. We should be thankful hundreds of Kafeel Ahmeds haven't produced a swadeshi version of jehad.

The writer is a political commentator.

PM writes "Care to elaborate of the modus operandi to which you are referring?? "

The missionary and the natives during the colonial era and for those of us who have studied in the US we are well aware of the new form of that when the CCC- Campus Crusade for Christ targets and tries to bribe International Students towards their "salvation"...

laddu, true or not, # 445 would be a 'stronger' form of argument. One could give it even greater power by understanding that no ideology eliminates individual-level variation, and that one single strategy may be best implemented in many different forms depending upon prevailing external conditions.

The point is, both sides could learn (and probably agree) a little more if neither left gaping holes in their arguments. And I genuinely believe at least some (definitely not all) on both sides are willing to listen (sometimes).

Kaal,

you daid "X: Muslims (don't hesitate to) kill kaffirs.
Y: Muslims ruled for a thousand years and still left so many Hindus alive."

Ther is no in consistency if we look at the wider perspective and program of Islam.

Fact- Islam needs zimmis and kafirs to survive.

Islam needs slaves and dhimmis/zimmis because their economy is based upon rent seeking out of zimmis and looting and plunderings of kafirs.

The reason why moghuls and other muslim rulers did not convert every one by sword was primarily because of stiff idolator resistence , im practicability of doing so and finally because the surviving idolators bribed the qazis and got themselves upgraded as zimmis.

The ruled part of the indian continent was divided into small rent seeking zimmidaris and the original arabic moghuls were given the 'zimma' of keeping my idolator forefathers who thnakfully bribed their way to zimmi-hood. The zimma was valued in terms of wealth of the idolator hindus who were required to pay regularly to the moghul kings.

Those who were incapable to pay or rebelled and refused were demoted to kafirs and were immediately despatched to Allah's hell as prescribed by Quran and hadiths.

The plight of my fore fathers was written dosn as per the Quranic manual. This ping pong between being a zimmi (if you pay) and being a kafir (if you do not pay) went for long . We idolators have suffered long to know why moguls and muslims DID NOT KILL all of us.

If every idolator or zimmi becomes muslim then where would the Allah's booties, slaves and kaneezs come to the faithfuls as ordained by the Quran???

"Not only "modern, educated" but most Muslims are willing to allow any idolater to do whatever they wish to do on their own.

And don't bring in kaaba; that is a different matter."

Kaal,

The roots of muslim violence lies in Kabba.

Remember, the original moment of violence was the destruction of 360 idols in kabba. The original root of in tolerance towards kafirs and idolators in muslim psyche begins there.
If the 360 idols are re-established in the city elsewhere, then the muslim paranoia against idolators would diminish.

It is necessary that muslims MUST up root the source of their original paranoia against idolators that leads to violence and the problem of subsequent justifications and conspiracy theories.

Once the polarity of idolatory vs monotheism is deconstructed the roots of muslim violence would end.

No Ajeya, weak arguments serve little purpose because they convince only those who are already convinced.

Here is another recent example.

X: Muslims (don't hesitate to) kill kaffirs.
Y: Muslims ruled for a thousand years and still left so many Hindus alive.

Both are very weak statements, justifiable, at best, only in light of each other. Nobody in the least understood the other's perspective.

What is the point of such 'discussions, ajeya?'

ALL these Pakis - they have grown up reading this stuff. And add Islam on top of that. How can you expect them to be normal people?

The first time I heard about Chowk was from a co-worker. His message with the hyperlink for Chowk was headed: "Pathetic Pakis".

How true.

Oh, I should also post this:

Hate Material

Associated with the insistence on the Ideology of Pakistan has been an essential component
of hate against India and the Hindus.

For the upholders of the Ideology of Pakistan, the existence of Pakistan is defined only in
relation to Hindus, and hence the Hindus have to be painted as negatively as possible.
That the pathological hate against Hindus is only because of adopting the so-called Ideology
of Pakistan is borne out by the fact that the pre-Ideology (before the 1970s) textbooks of
Pakistan did not contain this hatred. Although a lot of animosity towards Hindus might well
have been expected in the newborn Pakistan because of the bloody riots of the partition,
the early textbooks in Pakistan, many written after the partition, were free of the
pathological hate that we see in textbooks today. For example:

1. The early history books contained chapters on both the oldest civilizations Moen Jo
Daro, Harappa, Gandhara, etc., but also the early Hindu mythologies of Ramayana
and Mahabharata and extensively covered, often with admiration, the great Hindu
and Buddhist kingdoms of the Mauryas and the Guptas.
2. The books indeed showed biases when discussing the more recent history of the
politics of independence, but still one found school textbooks with chapters on Mr.
M. K. Gandhi, using words of respect for him and admiring him for his qualities.
3. Even in the somewhat biased history of politics of independence, the creation of
Pakistan was reasoned on the intransigence of the All India Congress and its
leadership rather than on ‘Hindu machinations’.
4. Some books also clearly mentioned that the most prominent Islamic religious
leaders were all bitterly opposed to the creation of Pakistan.

Such was the enlightened teaching of history for the first twenty five years of Pakistan
even though two wars were fought against India in this period. The print and electronic
media often indulged in anti-Hindu propaganda, but the educational material was by and
large free of bias against Hindus.
Then came the time when Indo-Pakistan History and Geography were replaced with
Pakistan Studies, and Pakistan was defined as an Islamic state. The history of Pakistan
became equivalent to the history of Muslims in the subcontinent. It started with the Arab
conquest of Sindh and swiftly jumped to the Muslim conquerors from Central Asia.
Simultaneously, there started a trend in the 1970s of stressing the so-called Ideology of
Pakistan. This involved creating an ideological straitjacket in which history of Pakistan,
especially that of the Pakistan Movement was to be re-written. Pakistan was told to have
been created to establish a truly Islamic state in accordance with the tenets of Qur’an
and Sunnah. The Ulema who had bitterly opposed the creation of Pakistan were turned
into heroes of Pakistan movement. The Quaid-i-Azam was represented as a pious
practicing Muslim. And hate and denigration was created for Hindus. A few examples of
the expression of this hate in some recent curriculum documents and textbooks are
given below.
Curriculum documents state the following as the specific learning objectives:
[The child should be able to] understand the Hindu and Muslim differences and
the resultant need for Pakistan98
Develop understanding of the Hindu Muslim Differences and need for Pakistan99
98 Curriculum Document, Primary Education, Classes K-V, Integrated and Subject Based, National Bureau of
Curriculum and Textbooks, Ministry of Education, Government of Pakistan, Islamabad, 1995, p 151
99 National Curriculum, Social Studies for Classes I-V, Government of Pakistan, Ministry of Education
(Curriculum Wing) Islamabad, March 2002, p 35
20

Insensitivity to the Religious Diversity of the Nation
Hindu-Muslim Differences in Culture, .. India’s evil designs against Pakistan (the
three wars with India)100
Identify the events in relation to Hindu-Muslim differences, which laid the
foundations for Pakistan101
The textbooks then respond in the following way to the above curriculum instructions:
Hindu has always been an enemy of Islam.102
The religion of the Hindus did not teach them good things -- Hindus did not
respect women...103
Hindus worship in temples which are very narrow and dark places, where they
worship idols. Only one person can enter the temple at a time. In our mosques,
on the other hand, all Muslims can say their prayers together.104
‘ … the social evils of the Hindus’105
Hindus thought that there was no country other than India, nor any people other
than the Indians, nor did anyone else possess any knowledge106.
[A story “The Enemy Pilot”, about a captured Indian pilot, presumably of Hindu
faith] He had only been taught never to have pity on Muslims, to always bother
the neighbouring Muslims, to weaken them to the extent that they forget about
freedom, and that it is better to finish off the enemy. He remembered that the
Hindus tried to please their Devi Kali by slaughtering innocent people of other
faiths at her feet; that they regarded everybody else as untouchables. He knew
that his country India had attacked Pakistan in the dead of the night to bleed
Pakistani Muslims and to dominate the entire Subcontinent.107
The Hindus who have always been opportunists cooperated with the English.108
…but Hindus very cunningly succeeded in making the British believe that the
Muslims were solely responsible for the [1857] rebellion.109
Nehru report exposed the Hindu mentality.110

The Quaid saw through the machinations of the Hindus.111
Hindus declared the Congress rule as the Hindu rule, and started to unleash terror
on Muslims.112
The Hindus always desired to crush the Muslims as a nation. Several attempts were
made by the Hindus to erase the Muslim culture and civilisation. Hindi-Urdu
controversy, shudhi and sanghtan movements are the most glaring examples of the
ignoble Hindu mentality.113
While the Muslims provided all type of help to those wishing to leave Pakistan, the
people of India committed cruelties against the Muslims (refugees). They would
attack the buses, trucks, and trains carrying the Muslim refugees and they were
murdered and looted.114
After 1965 war India conspired with the Hindus of Bengal and succeeded in
spreading hate among the Bengalis about West Pakistan and finally attacked on
East Pakistan in December 71, thus causing the breakup of East and West
Pakistan.11

re: #439

Check this out:

The Subtle Subversion
The State of
Curricula and Textbooks
in Pakistan
Urdu, English, Social Studies and Civics
Editors: A. H. Nayyar and Ahmad Salim


Here's an excerpt:

Four themes emerge most strongly as constituting the bulk of the curricula and textbooks of the three compulsory subjects.

1. that Pakistan is for Muslims alone;
2. that Islamic teachings, including a compulsory reading and memorization of Qur’an,
are to be included in all the subjects, hence to be forcibly taught to all the students,
whatever their faith,;
3. that Ideology of Pakistan is to be internalized as faith, and that hate be created against
Hindus and India; and
4. students are to be urged to take the path of Jehad and Shahadat.


We shall elaborate on them one by one.


Pakistanis as Muslims Alone


The process of equating the Muslim and Pakistani identities starts in very early school
education. For example, the most recent National Early Childhood Education (ECE)
curriculum41 released in March 2002 requires as an objective
To nurture in children a sense of Islamic identity and pride in being
Pakistani.42
There is no mention that this is to be done among Muslim students alone. The suggested
material under this objective is all Islamiat that is to be read by pupils of all religions.
For Class IV and V students, the Urdu curriculum requires that
A feeling be created among students that they are the members of a Muslim
nation. Therefore, in accordance with the Islamic tradition, they have to be
truthful, honest, patriotic and life-sacrificing mujahids (janbaz mujahid)43

Or,
To educate and train the future generations of Pakistan as a true practicing
Muslim44
Or,
To develop a sense of pride in being Muslim and Pakistani45
Or,
Knows that national culture is not the local culture or local customs, but that it
means the culture the principles of which are laid down by Islam46
The textbooks then pick up from this point and express these requirements as follows.
The class II Urdu book has a lesson on “Our Country”, the first sentences of which read:
Our country is Pakistan. We live in our country. Pakistan is an Islamic country.
Here Muslims live. Muslims believe in the unity of Allah. They do good deeds. ..47

The Class 6 book says:
Who am I? I am a Muslim. I am a Pakistani. I love my country and I love my
people. … You know that you are a Muslim and your religion is Islam.48
It conveys the message that being a Pakistani is equated with being a Muslim, and that only
Muslims are true Pakistani citizens. Patriotism has been equated with Islamic zeal. The way
it has been said clearly alienates religious minorities.


Compulsory Teaching of Islamiat to Non-Muslim Students

The educational material attempts to teach Islamiat to all the students irrespective of their
faith through the compulsory subjects of Social/Pakistan Studies, Urdu and English.
Although non-Muslims are not required to take the fourth compulsory subject of Islamiat,
there is an extraordinary incentive for them in the form of 25% additional marks for learning
and taking examinations in Islamiat.
The curricula of all these subjects require every Pakistani, irrespective of his (her) faith, to
love, respect, be proud of and practice Islamic principles, traditions, customs, rituals, etc.,
Both the curricula and textbooks are enlightening in this respect. The National Early
Childhood Education Curriculum (NECEC) would like to impart to the primary school
children, and not just to Muslim children, the following ‘life skills’49:

􀁸􀀃 Use greetings such as Assalam-o-Alaikum
􀁸􀀃 Know when to say “Bismillah”
􀁸􀀃 Recite the first Kalemah and understand its meaning
􀁸􀀃 Name the five daily prayers
􀁸􀀃 Learn about Ramadhan and Eidain


The primary education curriculum of 1995 lays down the following objective in the
Urdu curriculum:To create awareness of and love for Islamic beliefs, and to bring
up children according to Islamic values.50
Or,
Be proud of Islamic way of life, and try to acquire and adopt Islamic teachings51
Or,
Should try to adopt principles of Islamic way of living52
Or,
To participate in Salat ba Jamat in mosques, to develop a sense of respect for
Muezzin and Imam53
Or,
Read Qur’an, and respect it54
Or,
Listen to the events from Islamic history and derive pleasure from them55
Or,
􀁸􀀃 Should try to adopt principles of Islamic way of living
􀁸􀀃 Respect for Islamic beliefs and practices
􀁸􀀃 study religious books in order to understand Qur’anic teachings
􀁸􀀃 respect Islamic or national customs and urge others to do the same
􀁸􀀃 …. To love Islamic traditions
􀁸􀀃 In the textbooks, such subjects be included in sufficient numbers that emphasise
…, the importance and greatness of Islam
􀁸􀀃 Arrange functions/ events on Islamic and national themes, and students be asked
to memorize such poems, …, etc., that express national and Islamic sentiments
And the list is unending.
The Urdu language curriculum even prescribes lessons. A small sample follows56:


Class IV
Suggestions on preparing textbooks

3 Topics of books
a. Events from the life of the Holy Prophet, His family, and Islamic leaders (Imams)
b. Stories from the history of Islam
c. True friendship (from the life of Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddique)
d. …, Islamic preachers, …
e. Famous women of Islam

f. Golden quotes (sayings of the Muslim thinkers, religious scholars and spiritual
leaders)

Class V
3 Topics for lessons

a. Events from the life of the Holy Prophet, His family and Islamic leaders
b. Stories of Imams and the Prophet’s companions (sacrifice: from the life of Hazrat
Usman)
c. Stories about the Pakistan movement, eminent personalities of Pakistan, and
martyrs of Pakistan
d. Simple stories to urge for Jehad
e. Unity of the Islamic world
It is worth noting that the most recent Urdu textbooks in Punjab and the Federal Area have
religious (Islamic) contents in the following proportion: (full details are given in Part B of this
chapter)
Class I57 4 out of 25 lessons
Class II58 8 out of 33 lessons
Class II59 22 out of 44 lessons
Class III60 23 out of 51 lessons
Class IV61 10 out of 45 lessons
Class V62 7 out of 34 lessons
Class VI63 14 out of 46 lessons
Class VII64 16 out of 53 lessons
Class VIII65 15 out of 46 lessons
Class IX-X66 10 out of 68 lessons
Lesson-wise detail is given in Part B.
Similarly, textbooks on Social Studies, another compulsory subject that starts from Class 3,
all have at least 4 chapters on personalities, which are invariably Islamic religious
personalities. Note the detail below.
Class III: Chapters on the prophets Adam, Abraham, Jesus and Mohammad (pbuh)67
Class IV: Chapters on Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hazrat Umar, and
Hazrat Khadija68

Class V: Hazrat Fatima (ra), Mohammad bin Qasim, Shah Waliullah69

Thus all non-Muslim students in the mainstream educational system are taught Islamic
religious studies. In fact, when the most recent national curriculum document clearly vows
To make the Qur’anic principles and Islamic practices as an integral part of
curricula so that the message of the Holy Qur’an could be disseminated in the
process of education as well as training. To educate and train the future
generations of Pakistan as a true practicing Muslim who would be able to usher
in the 21st century and the next millennium with courage, confidence, wisdom
and tolerance70
and requires the following as objectives of teaching Urdu language71
To create love for religion and respect for personalities
a. must have belief in the Unity of God, and know that Allah is the creator of the universe.
b. Must regard Islamic ways as the best of all
c. Must have reverence for all the messengers of God, Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), His
family members, His companions, the Imams and the leaders, and must try to know
their teachings and adopt their ways
d. Must maintain affinity (love) with the Islamic world
e. Must respect the leaders, books, places of worship of other religions
f. Must be aware of the blessings of Jehad, and must create yearning for Jehad in his
heart.
it shows itself to be grossly insensitive to the existence and need of non-Muslims among the
students.

Compulsory reading of Qur’an: misrepresenting and violating the Constitution of Pakistan
The second, and more disturbing part of this is to make the non-Muslim students read
Qur’an, not in Islamiat which they are not required to learn, but in the compulsory subject of
Urdu.
Urdu textbooks from Class I to III, which are compulsory for students of all faiths, contain
lessons on learning to read Qur’an. Progressing from Class I where Arabic alphabets are
introduced in a lesson titled Iqra, to the lesson entitled “E’rab” on punctuations in Class II
Urdu book, to the lessons in Class III Urdu book entitled “Qur’an Parhna” (reading the
Qur’an), which has seven lessons (out of a total of 51) on learning to read Qur’an. The non-
Muslim students must learn these lessons and prepare them for examinations also.
Interestingly, these lessons are not prescribed in the Urdu curricula of these classes.
This clearly violates the rights of religious minorities.
The National Curriculum of March 2002 lays down the following as the first objective:
2.5.1: ”To make the Qur’anic principles and Islamic practices as an integral part
of curricula so that the message of the Holy Qur’an could be disseminated in the

and so on.....

#434 Posted by laddu

[You find the plight of my fore fathers and their genocide BORING??]

laddu,

You are not going to get a straight answer from tahmed. Or any other Paki. Remember, he has grown up studying Pakistani history books.

Get one of those books sometime, and you'll see why he's not likely to give you an answer.

#437 Posted by KaalChakra

[Not only "modern, educated" but most Muslims are willing to allow any idolater to do whatever they wish to do on their own.]

At the very best, the most I can say about your post is that you are effectively saying that there are a FEW Muslims that would NOT "allow any idolater to do whatever they wish to do on their own".

But the more important things about your post are 1)what EFFECT it has on the dialogue, and 2) what your motive is for posting this.

For 1), it is very clear that you want to portray the feeling that whatever laddu is doing is somehow wrong.

And for 2), your motive is to endear yourself with the Islamists so that you can keep continuing your "dialogue".

I think you should take up golf or something.

[And don't bring in kaaba; that is a different matter.]

Why is that a "different matter"?

laddu, you are all over the map, with a myriad "complaints" against Muslims. That is the strategy of whiners who are not looking to actually arrive at any solutions.

Not only "modern, educated" but most Muslims are willing to allow any idolater to do whatever they wish to do on their own.

And don't bring in kaaba; that is a different matter.

tahmed saheb,

You have my respect personally. But, It is my opinion that muslim psyche would transform only when they DO NOT take pride in breaking my idols and places of worship.
Tolerance to idolators and my idolatory is the only solution to the current phobia that is gripping the muslim world.

Modern day educated muslims like you must allow IDOLATORS like me a right to their polytheistic faith in the muslim lands and Kabba. Only then can the mullah's grip over common muslim's mind would end.

laddu #434 Please. I have already been called insensitive (among other) things on another board...by fellow Pakistanis like Masadi no less. :-(

PS: It is hard to take you seriously when you write the kind of things you wrote in #429. If you want to be taken seriously - then try and stick to facts, and try to write something positive. As people who are more fortunate than 99 percent of our countrymen, all chowkies have a responsibility to their less fortunate countrymen do what little we can to promote peace and goodwill in the subcontinent. Those who seek to do the opposite - the arjuns of chowk - are the worst enemies of the people they claim to represent (Indians). You seem like a well meaning fellow, although you get carried away with rhetoric. Try not to become like the gone cases from India on chowk. Seriously speaking!!

Re: # 431

tahmed saheb,

I am not being dramatic.

I am just asking muslims like you to regain their sensitivity towards the cause of hatred in Paksitan and mulim world.

You find the plight of my fore fathers and their genocide BORING??

How insensitive have you become?

laddu: you write Al Qaeda says that I am a legitimate target.

Wow!! That is impressive!! I bet Ben Laden has a price of one dozen camels on your head!!