Science and the Islamic world --- The quest for rapprochement

laddu writes "Every hindu idolator is a 'legitimate' target."

Not every hindu, but you certainly would be a legitimate target for psychiatric treatment. A-holes and lunatics like you don't belong in civilized society, and just like poverty, if we judge from the Chowk Indians, lunacy is quite widespread in India.

Regarding the Quran, the book is a mercy to humankind, it frees the dogmatic mind and it produces brotherhood of man, the kind that bigots like you can never come close to imagining. Don't open your pathetic dirty stinking mouth to lie about that book. You know NOTHING about the Quran and neither does your dimwit friend Arjun

The Lashkar — which functions under the Jamaat-ud-Dawa — is ‘banned’ in Pakistan. But its chief Hafiz Saeed continues his weekly sermons which receive wide publicity on the website that is updated regularly.



Terrorist and terrorist group openly in the land of the pure...

surely this can't be true...prophet tahmed told us so..

Re: # 413

The "mess" is created by Wahabism and literalist Islamists. The mess is already there in Islam- it is already there in Quran. The Hadiths are even more clearer about this 'mess'.

Every hindu idolator is a 'legitimate' target.

Ask Zeemax.
Ask Echoboom.
Ask Naqshabandi.

Ask them all.
Are idolators like me legitimate' targets on not??

Ask them.

Is Al Qaeda wrong in calling me a 'legitimate' target??

They are already sharpening their knives to kill idolators like me.

The butchers have already started shouting allahu while

Yada Yada ....This is the mess called PAKILAND...and what every Paki is viewed across the world when he shows his passport...or has links to Pakiland.
Pak Army repeating its mistakes of ’71: LashkarAds By

The Pakistani Army is repeating the mistakes it committed in 1971 in East Pakistan by taking on militant Islamists in the country today, the Lashkar-e-Taiba has warned in a recent statement posted on its website jamatdawah.org.

"Unfortunately, our rulers are making Pakistan's armed forces commit the same mistakes that they had previously committed in East Pakistan… the situation, therefore, is becoming critical with every passing day," the statement said.

The Lashkar — which functions under the Jamaat-ud-Dawa — is ‘banned’ in Pakistan. But its chief Hafiz Saeed continues his weekly sermons which receive wide publicity on the website that is updated regularly.

The Lashkar argues that the army’s action against militant Islamists in Pakistan today is as unpopular as what the khakis did in East Pakistan in 1971 — when Yahya Khan and other generals played a “despicable role” in “destroying the morals” of unit commanders by participating in and encouraging acts of “licentiousness and lewdness”.

"The result was widespread hatred against the army in East Pakistan and it had to fight a war against its own people," the Lashkar said.
The organisation’s warnings are a pointer to the dangers posed by militant Islamists in Pakistan, which has long received sustenance from the country’s military.

The statement claimed the army’s reputation had been tainted by the Lal Masjid incident, adding that Pakistan’s rulers must “apologise to the nation for the debacle”.

#409 Posted by tahmed32 on August 6, 2007 8:46:51 am


laddu: and what else did they teach you in India? :-)


if you don't believe him, which koran did they teach you in the land of the pure?

tahmed bhai,

I have read the truth about the 'fatwa' on me from Quran and the Hadiths. I can tell you the verses from which I learnt what fate awaits idolators like me. I have learnt from reading the history from the mouth of heros of Pakistan. I have learnt it from Moududi. I have learnt it from all the Wahabis. I have learnt the truth about Quranic fatwa on my head from numerous tafsirs about how a faithful muslim should treat an idolator like me.
Now Al Qaeda also calls me a legitimate target. It is a foregone conclusion because as a country of idolators I have always been a legitimate target.
I have learnt it from muslims. I have not read any book of RSS or VHP in coming to the conclusion about Quran as the source of hatred towards me.

#409 Posted by tahmed32

[laddu: and what else did they teach you in India? :-) ]

India is not an Islamic country like Pakistan. Unlike Pakiland, hate is not institutionalized in India. Unlike Paki schools that have on their curriculum lies about Hindus and hatred for Hindus, Indian schools do not carry books that teach hatred for Muslims.

It is only in the Madrassas of India where they teach hate for Hindus in India. (Ask me for facts and figures on this.)

laddu: and what else did they teach you in India? :-)

Quran had NO positive contribution to make to the world. It is a document of hate. It aims at killing and butchering idolators like me. It justifies random killing , butchery, beheadings and rape of idolators like me. It aims to decimate idolator's civilzation and it's contribution to the mankind.
Mohammad had no contribution to make to the world except create a martial race that believes in fascistic domination over other cultures.
Quran is the most regressive and unscientific document that cannot be accepted in the modern scientific world. It is at variance with scientific virtue of dis-belief and scepticism and aims at enforcing unfounded CERTAINITY about a perverse theology of a blood thirsty god.

zee
[...pakiland is economically well despite problem...]

I don't think that's true... from what I read from paki newspapers - the middle class is shrinking fast... more and more people are being driven into penury... exports have been down for a while...

Some segments have done well: mobile operators, banking etc... foreign money in exchange for assistance in WOT has given support to the economy - other than that there isn't much happening in pakiland - as far as I can tell...

(corrected version of #405- ignore my post #405)

asri #303 I have tried to respond to your individual points below and in summary, the point I have tried to make is that there is much more to muslims than your personal experiences. While I agree that scientific study is the way to go, a broad-based review of religious books also reveals a good deal about human aspirations and fears through the centuries. And studied in that light, these books (Quran, Bible, Vedas etc.) can serve to enrich our lives and deepen our udnerstanding of humanity much more than mere rejection of books of another religion as being the works of the devil.

On your specific points:

you wrote: is your problem with me mentioning Beslan and Koran in one sentence ?

That is indeed my problem. Unless you tell me that no non-nonmuslim ever attacked children.

In response to my statement "you wont find western scholars and statesmen demonizing Islam the way indians do every day on chowk.", you wrote Western people, my dear friend, didn't live with Muslims in their midst creating nuisance in their neighborhoods for decades.

Wrong. A scholar by definition takes a broader and more dispassionate look at the facts. You are merely allowing the communal hatreds festering within your community in India to form your views towards an entire religion. And btw, muslims were making a "nuisance" of themselves in Europe for at least as long as in India - and not merely as part of the Crusades: Spain became the most enlightened part of Europe for centures under muslim rule; Europeans moved from the dark ages to the leader in human progress in large part due to muslim contributions. And even the Crusades were not a total loss - chivalry in battle earnt Salahuddin respect that was reflected centuries later in UK's main armored vehicle being named after him (Saladin); the stimulus to road-building and the economy by the Crusades hastened the end of the dark ages as surely as the more direct manner in which muslims contributed; Charlemagne's, Emperor Frederick I, had a muslim bodyguard (and even a couple of muslim wives, as I read in a book by Karen Armstrong) in his capital Aachen in the heart of Germany.

So, if you are going to demonize the Quran on account of your own negative experiences with muslims in India, how about crediting the Quran with the massive positive contributions of Muslims through the centuries not just in India but on a much vaster playing field around the world??

you write They didn't live with muslims blowing up their festival shoppers and local trains & buses every now and then. and hindus are saints and never did such a thing?

you write If my good American friend/colleague is to be believed, the hatred developing in their hearts is a very familiar note to it.
I have never seen any people so given to hopes of the rest of the world sharing their hatreds as Indians on chowk. This is where I think Indians like you are so clueless about American culture, even though you live in their midst for decades!! They teach diversity and respect for all cultures in US schools right from kindergarten onwards. Indians coming to the US at the university level obviously missed on this basic education, and that is why they fail to understand this basic difference between US and Indian culture.

you write We all know what the famous curse word of white Britons is.... inspite of... you know.. the "fair and lovely" Pakistanis.
This is another example of how you are clinging to straws in your hopes that the rest of the world shares your hatreds. This why I say this: The word "paki" was in vogue 40 years ago among a narrow group of losers in the UK (the skinheads). Such ethnic cuss words are hardly reserved for pakistanis alone (nip for japanese, polack for polish, wop for italian, dago for spanish, limey for englishmen, hun for german, raghead for arab, paddy for irishman ...the list goes on) than anything else. So, the fact that you make a big deal of this to make a big deal tells me how little you understand US or western culture. As for Pakistanis being "fair and lovely", I realized this was the case from Indians like you. In Pakistan, "gandami rang" (the one most Pakistanis are blessed with) is considered to be quite different from "fair". Another example of going off-track by thinking others with a different experience think the way you do.

you wrote Yes I did grow up in the primitive culture of clashes between segregated neighborhoods of Hyderabad old city. I must say my young mind had quite a few experiences as I was growing up...

This of course is why I said earlier that I respect your views (i.e. you are writing straight, rather than trying to be clever like some people do on chowk). As kaalchakra noted below, this gives us a chance to consider that our views are shaped by our experiences. (Perhaps kaalchakra would like to take the time to add his insights on this).

you write I abondoned belief in stupidity (also called religion) long ago. So you are dead wrong on your presumption that I spoke bad about Islam only because I am a Hindu.
religion is about identity as well as theology. you may not believe in hindu theology, but clearly your distaste for muslims is based on negative experiences.

you write Either everybody else is wrong or the Muslims who are fighting everybody else are wrong ?
This is a good question, but the answer you imply is wrong. To find the answer, you need to understand the historical roots (e.g. muslim political successes of past centuries, the retreat from which has led to isolated pockets of muslim communities in europe), and also realize that much of the muslims world is in fact doing very well indeed (Indians go to muslim countries for jobs, not vice versa).

you write It is no exagerration when I say I did read books written by gods. After all, according to those gods, it is possible for a man to fly like a bird, cure diseases like magic, travel to the heavens, harness energy greater than what is contained in himself, etc. May be it is time for humans to realize that and read more of those kinds of books.

Agreed on your basic point. Note though that no one claims that holy books are written by gods. The christians have their four apostles, muslims have scribes commissioned by usman, hindus have their vedas that were transcribed after centuries of verbal recitation by human scribes, and confucius made no bones about who wrote his stuff. These books are "divinely inspired" though, in the sense that they provide us with a sense of there being more to living than individual selfishness - i.e. a moral compass that seeks to channel human behavior to benefit entire mankind, rather than simply "wet one's beak" as the crooks say in the Godfather. And in the sense of there being more to things than what we observe - something scientific inquiry has revealed to us in incredible powerful ways in the centuries since these holy books were penned.

This has been a lengthy post, but hopefully not a total waste of time reading it. :-)

sri #303 I have tried to respond to your individual points below and in summary, the point I have tried to make is that there is much more to muslims than your personal experiences. While I agree that scientific study is the way to go, a broad-based review of religious books also reveals a good deal about human aspirations and fears through the centuries. And studied in that light, these books (Quran, Bible, Vedas etc.) can serve to enrich our lives and deepen our udnerstanding of humanity much more than mere rejection of books of another religion as being the works of the deveil.

On your specific points:

you wrote: is your problem with me mentioning Beslan and Koran in one sentence ?

That is indeed my problem. Unless you tell me that no non-nonmuslim ever attacked children.

In response to my statement "you wont find western scholars and statesmen demonizing Islam the way indians do every day on chowk.", you wrote Western people, my dear friend, didn't live with Muslims in their midst creating nuisance in their neighborhoods for decades.

This is precisely what I am saying: you are allowing the communal hatreds festering within your community in India to form your views towards an entire religion. A scholar by definition takes a broader and more dispassionate look at the facts. And btw, muslims were making a "nuisance" of themselves in Europe for at least as long as in India - and not merely as part of the Crusades: Spain became the most enlightened part of Europe for centures under muslim rule; Europeans moved from the dark ages to the leader in human progress in large part due to muslim contributions. And even the Crusades were not a total loss - chivalry in battle earnt Salahuddin respect that was reflected centuries later in UK's main armored vehicle being named after him (Saladin); the stimulus to road-building and the economy by the Crusades hastened the end of the dark ages as surely as the more direct manner in which muslims contributed; Charlemagne's, Emperor Frederick I, had a muslim bodyguard (and even a couple of muslim wives, as I read in a book by Karen Armstrong) in his capital Aachen in the heart of Germany.

So, if you are going to demonize the Quran on account of your own negative experiences with muslims in India, how about crediting the Quran with the massive positive contributions of Muslims through the centuries not just in India but on a much vaster playing field around the world??

you write They didn't live with muslims blowing up their festival shoppers and local trains & buses every now and then. and hindus are saints and never did such a thing?
you write If my good American friend/colleague is to be believed, the hatred developing in their hearts is a very familiar note to it.
I have never seen any people so given to hopes of the rest of the world sharing their hatreds as Indians on chowk. This is where I think Indians like you are so clueless about American culture, even though you live in their midst for decades!! They teach diversity and respect for all cultures in US schools right from kindergarten onwards. Indians coming to the US at the university level obviously missed on this basic education, and that is why they fail to understand this basic difference between US and Indian culture.

you write We all know what the famous curse word of white Britons is.... inspite of... you know.. the "fair and lovely" Pakistanis.
This is another example of how you are clinging to straws in your hopes that the rest of the world shares your hatreds. This why I say this: The word "paki" was in vogue 40 years ago among a narrow group of losers in the UK (the skinheads). Such ethnic cuss words are hardly reserved for pakistanis alone (nip for japanese, polack for polish, wop for italian, dago for spanish, limey for englishmen, hun for german, raghead for arab, paddy for irishman ...the list goes on) than anything else. So, the fact that you make a big deal of this to make a big deal tells me how little you understand US or western culture. As for Pakistanis being "fair and lovely", I realized this was the case from Indians like you. In Pakistan, "gandami rang" (the one most Pakistanis are blessed with) is considered to be quite different from "fair". Another example of going off-track by thinking others with a different experience think the way you do.

you wrote Yes I did grow up in the primitive culture of clashes between segregated neighborhoods of Hyderabad old city. I must say my young mind had quite a few experiences as I was growing up...

This of course is why I respect your views (i.e. you are writing straight, rather than trying to be clever like some people do on chowk) since (as kaalchakra noted below) this gives us a chance to consider that our views are shaped by our experiences. (Perhaps kaalchakra would like to take the time to add his insights on this).

you write I abondoned belief in stupidity (also called religion) long ago. So you are dead wrong on your presumption that I spoke bad about Islam only because I am a Hindu. religion is about identity as well as theology. you may not believe in hindu theology, but clearly your distaste for muslims is based on negative experiences.

"Your spirit, my friend, is that of too many of your spiteful little countrymen who visit chowk."
you write Either everybody else is wrong or the Muslims who are fighting everybody else are wrong ? This is a good question, but the answer you imply is wrong. To find the answer, you need to understand the historical roots (e.g. muslim political successes of past centuries, the retreat from which has led to isolated pockets of muslim communities in europe), and also realize that much of the muslims world is in fact doing very well indeed (Indians go to muslim countries for jobs, not vice versa).

you write It is no exagerration when I say I did read books written by gods. After all, according to those gods, it is possible for a man to fly like a bird, cure diseases like magic, travel to the heavens, harness energy greater than what is contained in himself, etc. May be it is time for humans to realize that and read more of those kinds of books.

No one claims that holy books are written by gods. The christians have their four apostles, muslims have scribes commissioned by usman, hindus have their vedas that were transcribed after centuries of verbal recitation by human scribes, and confucius made no bones about who wrote his stuff. These books are "divinely inspired" though, in the sense that they provide us with a sense of there being more to living than individual selfishness - i.e. a moral compass that seeks to channel human behavior to benefit entire mankind, rather than simply "wet one's beak" as the crooks say in the Godfather. And in the sense of there being more to things than what we observe - something scientific inquiry has revealed to us in incredible powerful ways in the centuries since these holy books were penned.

Sorry for the lengthy post.

#403 Posted by aslam644 ,

Well your guess is just that ... a guess.

Re: # 402
my guess is over 90% of those in slums in bombay are muslims and dalits.

#401 Posted by aslam644 ,

Glad to note that Bombay is rural.

Indian middle class have never had it so good, rural areas not so good, certain groups, muslims, dalits, tribals facing discrimination and other impediments in their progress.

The challenge now should be to be all inclusive development, so that every group has a rightful place under the Indian sun.