Science and the Islamic world --- The quest for rapprochement

Re: # 590
Tahmed mian,

I did not express any bitterness, just a statment of fact.

My friend, me thinks you are a bit naive in believing that help from India is going to solve any problem in Pakistan. If it helps the status quo, the pro-democracy complains - like you just did. If it helps the pro-democracy folks, your military is going to throw a fit.

The way indians and the indian goverment looks at it, the more you guys stew in your own couldron, the less time you folks will have in blowing some one up in India.

On a serious note

Given the geopolitics of the sub-continent, it is not in the interest of the indian politician nor the Pakistani one to sit down and solve any bilateral issues. Because it is more beneficial to have problems since it makes it easy to rile the masses in their favour.After all the politicans need votes to remain in power to enjoy the perks.

I beleive there are no problems but there is a significant lack of trust.

When Mush came to power, a large majority of pakistanis welcomed it. (Recommend my much earlier post on this subject). After a few years of Bhutto or Nawaz, I bet a majority will be clamoring for Military rule again.

The poor man on the street has short term memory and an even shorter attention span. His needs are immediate. He will go with one who promises a quick fix. Unfortunately, there are no quick fixes.

However, a slight or even a perceived one leaves an emotional scar that even time finds to heal and which is inherited over generations.

I thought that chowk was for promoting greater understanding among peoples of the subcontinent. However, every interact session for every post turns into communal free for all - why? (moi is guilty too)

Some of the interactors were not even born when partition took place. So why the hatred? My belief is that it is an emotional thread that is being inherited via stories that grandma and grandpa told.

So my friend, there is no easy way out. No helping hand and defintely no welfare from east of the border. The long term resolution has come from within and it requires patience and some quality leadership, which has not emerged in Pakistan as yet.( I doubt if we have ever seen any in India either but at least they have been a trifle better)

With apoligies for the sermon.

giani

jang: provide me with a substitute that is politically correct then.

giani #581: So you have no quarrel with the realities of the sub-continent that I present in #436, but are so embittered that Pakistanis chose to form their own country that you are not prepared to support the democracy movement in Pakistan even if you understand it is in the significant economic and security and political interest of India itself for Pakistan to replace dictatorship with democracy.

Thanks for taking the time to read it and provide your honest comments.

All I can say is: 60 years is enough. As educated Pakistanis and Indians who are better off than the vast majority of their suffering people, we can live the luxury of nursing grudges and stoking our tender egos wile ignoring the broader interests of our respective countries only if we really couldnt care less for the broader interests of the very countries we claim to represent. The Indian government is missing a great opportunity at this time by not being more forthcoming in favor or democracy in Pakistan (and thus promoting its own longer term interests of extending influence in the region consistent with its population and growing economy). Your post indicates the reason for this may be more driven by the momentum of the past than by any vision of the future.

#588 tahmed, watch your language...we do not take the perjorative achoot lightly.

#576 arjun: I already gave you the answer to your stupid questions - and I had challenged you to go to my post #436 (the one you keep avoiding as if it was achoot) and tell me how your stupid questions change the realities I put down one bit.

So quit stalling and trying to wiggle away like an eel, and show me you can take a challenge like a man. It is for your own good. Remember: no pain, no gain.

PS: but you have to stop whining and crying muslims being killed by hinuds... you want a fight to the finish [till the last muslim child] - so you should be ready accept the consequences...

Re:borivili
"So this is a long haul train and you will loose if the previous struggles are any example, you can only decide wether you want to loose now or later."

Hahaha!! Sure. In my dreams I also imagine that I am married to Aishwariya Rai. No harm in having fantasies about Kashmir since you will never get it. You can always go to web sites and check out pictures. Hehe!!

Borivili

fair enough... you want a fight , we will give you a fight - till the last muslim child...:)

Re: # 577
Boriwiili,

we are not born morons. Our parents and their parents and their parents and so on ensured that they were not brothers and sisters or first coursins.

Did yours ?

shishapa, giani:

I do not know the answer to your question. The BJP has shown over the years that it is quite capable of changing its colours to suit the prevalent situation. The reality of the Indian situation is that Muslims hold the balance of power in 100-125 Parliamentary seats and no party can come to power which is actively opposed by them.

Re: # 579

DM Sahib,

you have got to admit that BJP showed class in its restrain and in its attempt to hold out a hand of friendship to Pakistan.

And yes, if it did not have to depend on psuedo secularists for staying in power, Article 370 would have been history.

Boriwilli,

Its easy to become a terrorist and start killing with a blindfold on - call it Jihad peehad or whatever,

Re: # 456

Tahmed Mian,

I have no quarrel with your geopolitical view of the sub continent. Magar taali do hath se bajti hai.

So it is okay to ask for support for freedom. But current situation is something the Pakistanis brought it upon themselves. Mind you I am not saying that muslims brought it upon themselves.

The mere act of partition underlined the fact that here was a group of people - followers of a religion who did not want to live with followers of another religion and wanted a separate homeland - mind you there was no plebisite held to determine if the common people really wanted this or was it power grab by a bunch of elites.

So Pakistan and pakistanis represent a group of people who did not want to live with all that constitutes Indians.

What kind of action/ response do you expect from persons when you tell them you do not like them? Hug you?

So a mere act of cab drivers giving free rides or building swami narayan temples does not address the key issue.

So logically, I do not see a solution to the problem you raise.

DMji,

Do you think if BJP had absolute majority in parliament
it would have repealed/removed the Article 370?

arjun#571:

"it's kuldip nayyar clones like you who've kept india from taking reasonable steps like repealing article 370..."

How does article 370 prevent the BJP govt. from bombing jihadi training camps in POK? And while article 370 is one of the tragic legacies of Nehru, why did the BJP not do a thing to remove it while it was in power?

Nelson Mandela at one point was the most dangerous armed fighter in south africa by your definition he was a terrorist. Any way we dont care, your Jihadi is our freedom fighter and we will keep fighting irrespective of what Musharraf, bush or the indian PM does until the majority of kashmiris get what they want.

O hindus are you born morons? 80% of Kashmir has been muslim for hundreds of years now, if they dont want hindus ruling them their struggle is not terorism, just as the Viet Cong's struggle was not terrorism, nor was that of Irish revolutionaries or of the ANC or of hundreds of other struggles.

It is incumbent on every adult muslim male to wage Jihad/armed struggle if his coreligionists are being opressed. and as long as islam and muslims exists this will cotinue wehere ever muslim land is occupied, wether in Palestine, Chechniya or Kashmir.

So this is a long haul train and you will loose if the previous struggles are any example, you can only decide wether you want to loose now or later.