Science and the Islamic world --- The quest for rapprochement

Re: # 593

Hi,

I agree. Most religious books including Bible and some of the Smrities are books that have hate verses.

The difference between muslims world and the rest of the followers of other faiths is that muslims seem to believe in each and every verse from Quran or even Hadith. But this is not true of modern day Christians or Hindus who do not flich an eye is rejecting some regresive part of their tradition-

the same is not true of muslim. Most of them remain apologetic about the hate verses which have spurred terrorism all over the world .

I think so the first task of all universities should be to protect freedom of expression. In Pakistani university campuses there should not be any mosques. It is okay to not to have book stores because there are always libraries which students can use.

During examination season some libraries can be opened 24 hours and at least one reading room in campus should be open at least from dawn to midnight (if not 24 hours) all 7 days a week. Such reading room may have light reading materials also and a very truncated collection of most popular academic books and newspapers. That way serious archival functions (if any) are kept away from browsing crowd.

In India (and I am sure in Pakistan also) there is no public library system to speak of. Many uprooted university graduates are forced to use local university libraries to keep their professional knowledge current. This too is restricted. I have been denied entry into IIT,Kgp and IIT,Bombay sometime.

If you are a university graduate then you should be issued a letter of reference or a Photo-ID to permit willing librarians of local universities to let you use material at their reading rooms. Ideally the uprooted academics who want to keep in touch with their fields should be allowed some borrowing privileges from non-archival collections of university libraries.

Although I have not been able to verify following story about Edwin Land who invented Polaroid camera I am writing it anyways. It is said that he made major portions of his research by gaining clandestine access to the university laboratory.

When a student in university he would become easily distracted by an idea that happened to occur to him and then neglect his regular study to pursue that idea. His wife used to prod him to solve quizzes he was to hand in to his professor and then she would write out the answers and give them to professor.

If "clandestine lab work" story is correct then that is clear indication of heaven in which he lived. Such heaven unfortunately for our scientists can see in their dreams only.

"yeah...post #436 where prophet tahmed(pbuh) claims to have come clean isn't by the prophet anyway..post 435 is but it refers to some other post... "

it is #456 where crazy mullah has audacity to threaten with nuclear holocaust. His Point #2 is as follows:

"2. Indians have every practical reason to seek good relations with Pakistan - militarily, Pakistan has the means to cause a nuclear holocaust in the sub-continent if it came to an existential threat; strategically, India has no choice but to have good relations Pakistan in order to establish links of its growing economy with the middle east (as in case of the gas pipeline) and central asia (e.g. road trade with Afghanistan and even, later, with China via silk route); and to compete in the global marketplace, it is in the Indian interest to have the world see South Asia as a region of peace where investors need not fear future wars."

[India has no choice but to have good relations Pakistan]

yani ke kashmiri khilona tumko chahiye hi chahiye varna tum udham machate hi rahoge. to phir saf saf kyun nahin kahte. kashmir dena padega eisa bolo na. kya mid-east, kya silk routes? India's economic juggernaut is unstoppable. chahe pakistan kitna bhi misbehave karle. nuksan paskitan ka hi hei.

yeah...post #436 where prophet tahmed(pbuh) claims to have come clean isn't by the prophet anyway..post 435 is but it refers to some other post...

tahmed saheb:

You have made dozens of references to "your" post#436. Have you clicked on post#436?

next week, it'll be 60 years since independence


India: confident democracy, booming economy, education system recognized by the world, IT industry

Pakiland: Rice had to call mushy at 2am to stop him declaring an emergency, government making up numbers to boost the GDP, Paki army bombing it's own citizens and using white phosphorus against them...world renowned education system(madrassahs)...IT(Islamic Terrorism) boom...

#603 by tahmed32

Actually, given the economic and military realities underlying India-Pakistan relations in point #2 of my post #436, any responsible Indian would give two hoots - and more - about peace and stability within Pakistan. If they are interested in the interests of people in India, i.e., rather than in merely stoking their own tender egos and insecurities.

India has negligible trade with Pakistan yet its economy is growing at a furious pace. As for military power, even during the Kargil war, India chose not to attack Paki territory despite having a valid reason to do so, so why do you even entertain the thought that India has eyes on Pakistan? As for egos and insecurities, the fact that you refer to Pakistan's military power and nuclear assets at every given opportunity, even when the discussion is far removed from the subject betrays your own insecurity and paranoia.

Read point 1 of my post #436 on the the realities of Pakistan that thousands of Indians saw for themselves when they actually visited Pakistan. How does what you say above jive with the realities I present there?

Are you denying that there exist Chanda boxes where Pakis make contributions to the Jihad against Indian forces in Kashmir? Are you denying that Pakistan arms and trains Kashmiri terrorists who carry out terrorist acts in India? So why should India be swayed by the experiences of a few Indians who visited Pakistan?

#456 Posted by tahmed32


[1. The warm welcome given to Indians visiting Pakistan. This came as a surprise to many Indians who visited Pakistan in large numbers a couple of years ago to watch the test matches. Cab drivers refused to accept payment for their services, crowds applauded Indian players when they scored (and the only person booed in Lahore was a local politician), Indians reported being treated in a more friendly and respectful manner by Pakistani police than their own Indian police ever did. No one, not even Islamist parties, attacked any of the thousands of Indians (or idol-worshippers, as you have been referring to yourself) who came to Pakistan then. Sikhs visiting Pakistan for far longer have always known this basic friendly nature of the average Pakistani. ]

That's no good, if you also support terrorists in Kashmir.


[2. Indians have every practical reason to seek good relations with Pakistan - militarily, Pakistan has the means to cause a nuclear holocaust in the sub-continent if it came to an existential threat;]


This is idiotic logic. Why is "bad relations" being equated to an "existential threat"? India can have AS MUCH bad relations with Pakiland AS LONG as it likes. What is Pakiland going to do? In fact, I hope India continues to give a cold shoulder to Pakiland for the foreseeable future.


[strategically, India has no choice but to have good relations Pakistan in order to establish links of its growing economy with the middle east (as in case of the gas pipeline) and central asia (e.g. road trade with Afghanistan and even, later, with China via silk route); and to compete in the global marketplace, it is in the Indian interest to have the world see South Asia as a region of peace where investors need not fear future wars.]

India DOES NOT HAVE TO trade with the central asian countries. And even if it did, it could use routes OTHER THAN the ones through Pakiland.

India can trade with China using MANY OTHER routes other than routes through Pakiland. And a lot of the Silk Route is OUTSIDE of Pakiland.

Whenever Muslims are involved, there will be no peace, in any case.


[So, put two and two together - Pakistanis are not the bloodthirsty idol-breakers that individual like Jay Thakeray and Ajeya and so many others on chowk try to portray them (as did those from whom you got this impression before coming to chowk). They are normal people, struggling today to gain their freedom from a power-hungry general and his fascist allies. ]

Then WHY are their Paki textbooks the way they are? If one looks through the thousand years of Muslim rulers in India, one would think Hindus have been the victims - not the other way around.



[Today is the time for Indians to stand up and be counted as being supporters of freedom for Pakistan, rather than to seek to demonize them by equating them with the worst of the fascists they are in facting struggling against. I have no doubt that Pakistanis will long remember who stood by them, and who stood aside and merely enjoyed their predicament, during these historic days in Pakistan. ]

I think Islam's nature is not going to change. It is the same in EVERY country, Hindu or no Hindu. It has been the SAME throughout history. I think now is the time for Hindus to be alert and vigilant against the coming deluge of Islamic activity.

Masadi wrote:

"There is no conflict here with the scientific methodology, as there is absolutley no conflict between religion and science, according to the Quran which invites people to use it to arrive at the truth, and then "after the fact" confirm the Quran's statements."

The scientific methodology means all facts are subject to scrutiny. Science is not facts known at one point of time. Science is its method. Facts are its bye-products. In that method all facts are ephmeral and subject to suspicion and revision. Before a revision can be made new facts should be found. And before one embarks on a mission to find new facts a scientist should be allowed to bring into his mind a doubt about old facts or old interpretations. And he should be allowed to express his doubts without his head being chopped off. In science there are no last prophets, there no theory which not a "work in progress". There is no theory which is complete and therefore above question.

Can you convincingly argue that this is the case in case of Islam? In Islam there is conflict between religion and science because religion is presented as ready made theory which is complete in every respect and which should not be questioned.

If the Quran invites people to use it to arrive at the truth and then enjoins upon such qusi-scientists to confirm the Quran's statements only then where is the freedom to bring doubt about Quran and freedom to express it in so many words, and that "not confirming" and refutation of its statements is not allowed (in other words, Quran cannot be subject to scrutiny, it is off limits, untouchable) under the pain of threat of death, then Quran cannot be basis of science.

#614 Posted by tahmed32 on August 9, 2007 2:47:50 pm


when you try to paint Pakistanis as terrorists



pray tell. why were pakis the first among the people required to register after 9/11? Isn't it because pakis are considered by the GOTUS to be most likely to be terrorists?

why is the FBI checking passport information at exit points at paki airports?

why are pakis subject to extra scrutiny when they land at US airports..

pakis come pre-painted..there's no need to paint anything on them..

giani/subhashjoshi/channai/arjun: The truth is there in #436 to which I keep directing your attention. Only giani has chosen to comment on it and been honest enough to acknowledge that he cannot argue with the facts I presented. The rest of you are merely beating around the bush, trying to be clever.

And the implication of the reality as presented in #436 is also inescapable: when you try to paint Pakistanis as terrorists, this serves no purpose other than to stoke your own personal insecurities - since the Indian interest is not in ridiculing Pakistan (which is there, and is going to be there stronger than ever, regardless of what you wish) or Pakistanis, but in being seen as being on the side of the Pakistani people.

Bush understood that today when he called for free and fair elections in Pakistan a couple of days after Musharraf announced his intention to have unfree and unfair elections (i.e. to get rubber stamped for another 5 years in uniform by the current assembly).

And giani #612: You express surprise that (unlike the way all of you came running to poor arjun's aid), I dont need moral support from anyone when I write. All I am concerned about is that what I write makes sense.

Cheers. God bless you merry gentlemen of India. :-)

Boriwilli,

you got that right. you are surely related to us!!! You see you are second person to have called me a moron. The first one was my dad. He use to say giani you moron stop chasing boriwilli's mom, she is your sister. Alas, he was a bit late. You were already on the way

Re: # 610

Subhash,

I do not think Tahmed has anything to say. Unfortunately, he seems to be a victim of the herd mentality whereby any perceived ill towards muslims is blown out of proportion but there is an absolute silence when they are busy blowing themseleves and other people up.

I suprised to see that people like YLH, echo, zeemax etc have just disappeared leaving Tahmed as the lone torch bearer. I guess truth and reality hurts

Pakistan weighs state of emergency
Musharraf cancels trip to Afghanistan. He is to convene his Cabinet and other senior officials today to discuss the step.
By Laura King
August 9, 2007


President Pervez Musharraf, who for months has been under enormous domestic political pressure to step aside or give up his role as army chief, was considering imposing a state of emergency, news reports and senior Pakistani officials said early today.

Musharraf, considered a key U.S. ally, was to convene his Cabinet and other senior officials later today to discuss the step, which would give his government wide-ranging powers, including the ability to restrict opposition political activities, postpone elections and dissolve parliament.

Political opponents expressed deep concern over the prospective move, reports of which came hours after Musharraf abruptly canceled a scheduled trip to the Afghan capital, Kabul, where he was to have taken part in a meeting aimed at combating the presence of insurgents in the tribal belt that straddles the Afghan-Pakistani border.

An emergency declaration would mark a dramatic escalation in the political turmoil that has gripped Pakistan over the last five months, beginning with Musharraf's attempt in March to oust the independent-minded chief justice, Iftikhar Mohammed Chaudhry.

Heightened instability in Pakistan would have repercussions far beyond its borders. The U.S. says Musharraf has been a crucial ally against Taliban and Al Qaeda militants in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks.

At the same time, the Bush administration has been pressing the Pakistani leader hard to deprive the insurgents of sanctuary in the rugged, remote borderlands, particularly after last month's National Intelligence Estimate said Islamic militants had been able to regroup and rearm themselves, using Pakistan's frontier zone as a base.

Musharraf, who seized power nearly eight years ago in a coup, has seen his popularity plunge to an all-time low amid widespread dissatisfaction over his plans to continue as president while retaining his post as the chief of Pakistan's powerful military.

Chaudhry, who was reinstated by the Supreme Court last month, presents a potential impediment to Musharraf's plans to have the outgoing parliament that he controls elect him to another five-year term as president.

The high court today was scheduled to hear an appeal by former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, who was overthrown by Musharraf in 1999 and then exiled. Sharif, like former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, who also is living in exile, has said he wants to return to Pakistan to contest parliamentary elections to take place by early 2008.

Musharraf has declared he will not allow their return.

Two senior Pakistani officials, speaking on condition of anonymity and without providing details, said the emergency measure was being weighed because of Pakistan's deteriorating security situation. Pakistan's minister of state for information, Tariq Azim Khan, speaking to the Associated Press, cited "external and internal threats" facing the country.

Pakistan has been angry over official and unofficial suggestions by U.S. politicians that American forces unilaterally strike Al Qaeda figures believed to be taking shelter in Pakistan's tribal lands if Musharraf's government fails to do so.

Pakistan, which is in the midst of a major military offensive against militants in the semiautonomous border region, said any such U.S. action would violate its sovereignty.

The country in recent weeks has been plagued by suicide bombings and other attacks by Islamic militants angry over the storming of a radical mosque in the capital nearly a month ago. More than 100 people died in the raid by government forces on the Red Mosque, and at least another 250 have been killed in suicide attacks and fighting since then.

Pakistan reinforced its troop presence in the tribal areas, and a 9-month-old truce with militants in volatile North Waziristan broke down.

Musharraf's opponents questioned whether the level of violence alone was sufficient to justify an emergency declaration, suggesting his motives might be political. Bhutto, who has been in talks with Musharraf about a potential power-sharing arrangement, told Pakistan's GEO television from New York that a state of emergency would be "a negative step for the restoration of democracy."

The Bush administration was apparently caught off-guard by Musharraf's sudden announcement Wednesday that he would not attend a traditional council, or jirga, in the Afghan capital. He was to have opened the gathering today with the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai.

Musharraf said he was sending his prime minister, Shaukat Aziz, in his stead because he had other engagements in Islamabad, the capital.

--

laura.king@latimes.com

Special correspondent Mubashir Zaidi in Islamabad contributed to this report.

Re: # 568 Tahmed Chacha

Guruji, I hope you slept well.

So even today you will remain silent, as you have always been (wink wink), about the systematic and state-sponsored massacre of millions of Pakistani Hindus over the last sixty years. Right?

So, what did Modi do, please?

The real meaning of what this tahmed dude is offering is this...

Pls come to pakiland, I shall be your guest..pls invite all your near, dear ones to accompany you...if possible get your neighbours too..the only criterion, they must all be hindus...

I shall take you to Katas Raj temple wherein I get an "have to take" call on my mobile and I shall then move away from the group as far as possible without seeming to run away...

A suicide bomber, set up by this dude in advance then appears and you know the rest.....

The only dampner could be...are there mobile phones in Pakiland?

What a nice guy/statesman Musharraf is, he rejected
imposing emergency and marcial law.
Some of the hateful Pakistanis are unnecessarily berating
him, like those Pundit Hate Indians are berating ...

#606 shishapa: my parents and grandparents fled for their lives too from india in 1947. so save your sad melodies for bollywood.

When your grandparents and parents were living
amongst use, we either killed them or coverted or
kicked them out without remorse just because they
were different than us in only one aspect but you are
welcome to visit as a visitor so we will be nice to
you and/so say how nice we are.

#603 Posted by tahmed32 on August 9, 2007 5:42:25 am


on the the realities of Pakistan that thousands of Indians saw for themselves when they actually visited Pakistan.


translation from prophetese to english: we didn't charge visiting Indians cab fare and whatnot so it's ok if we do the jihadi thingy...and we're still on the moral high ground..because I, prophet tahmed(peace be unto my self-righteous left butt cheek), say so...

#601 jang: not being as smart as you, I can only write inanities. Your posts are loaded no doubt with hidden meanings that a mere mortal like me cannot comprehend.

harish_hyd: #594 Actually, given the economic and military realities underlying India-Pakistan relations in point #2 of my post #436, any responsible Indian would give two hoots - and more - about peace and stability within Pakistan. If they are interested in the interests of people in India, i.e., rather than in merely stoking their own tender egos and insecurities.

You quote me saying "They say that the best way to get rid of an enemy is to make it a friend. In Pakistan, India has a historic opportunity today to do exactly this" you respond And why not the other way round? Why can't Pakistan do the same by demonstrating its sincerity of intent by ceasing support for and acting against terrorist groups that act against India? If Pakistan can do so, would there be any reason for India/Indians to hate Pakistan?

My answer is simple: Read point 1 of my post #436 on the the realities of Pakistan that thousands of Indians saw for themselves when they actually visited Pakistan. How does what you say above jive with the realities I present there?

#601 by jang

mohar and giani, what tahmed means is we should laud his inane pontifications on the chowk.com .. that is what he means by how indians should help ;-)

giani

When mush took over - indian gov't refused to deal with him for a while - because of kargil and the fact that he toppled an elected democratic govt... but pakis were livid at the time - jumping up and down as usual accusing indians all sorts of epithets... mushy was their knight in shining armor...

And now suddenly they want indians to "help" them out against same mushy... :)

"Helping" other countries in their internal matters is risky business even in best of circumstance -e.g. srilanka... in case of a paranoid nation like pakiland - there is no chance...

borivili

you have no beef with hinuds? when did that happen ? when daisy-cutter rained down?... :)

As for "atrocities" against muslims - like I said, we may have killed 4000 - but you killed a million and counting... so actually we treating muslims better than you treat your fellow-muslims... we are not even talking about atrocities of your minorities...

if you want a fight, we will give you a fight... the choice is yours really... be peaceful and live ...or be a bedouin and fight till last muslim child[your words]...

#597 by borivili_express

Listen Ganpats We have no beef with you, we are even related to some of you but for us this life is not as dear as the next, and if you don’t stop your atrocities on muslims we will fight you till either we or u make an exit because according to islam there is no country which can surrender the rights of all muslims.

Yaar Borivili, we sympathize with you. You said for you this life is not as important as the next. We're doing our best helping you transition to the next life.

Listen Ganpats We have no beef with you, we are even related to some of you but for us this life is not as dear as the next, and if you don’t stop your atrocities on muslims we will fight you till either we or u make an exit because according to islam there is no country which can surrender the rights of all muslims.

Correction:

My post #595 was in response to #522 by tahmed.

594 Posted by harish_hyd

[They say that the best way to get rid of an enemy is to make it a friend. In Pakistan, India has a historic opportunity today to do exactly this, per what I wrote in bold at the end.]

As Urstruly will tell you, there is no PERMANENT way to make friends with Muslims as a community. On an individual level - ecrtainly. But not as a group.

Islam teaches them to make friends and be humble when things are inconvenient. But when the going is good - their true colors come out - the emphasis is then on assimilation and coercion of non-Muslims.

#522 by tahmed32

No doubt the US terrorist list LeT. It also includes Modi, elected Chief Minister of Gujerat. Does this mean that the US is going to be concerned with LeT or Modi in the same manner as it is wrt al Qaeda?

Umm..OK, so a single individual Modi being declared a persona non grata by the US is sufficient for you to equate it with the entire country of Pakistan coming close to being declared a terrorist state?

As for the US not being as concerned with the LeT as it is with the US, are you just dumb or are you pretending to be so? It is because the Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for 9/11.

Thus, for policy makers in the US (as in any other country) the prime concern is domestic security.

And your point is? If it weren't for Paki terrorist groups' operations inside India, we would give two hoots to what the LeT or the JeM are upto inside Pakistan.

They say that the best way to get rid of an enemy is to make it a friend. In Pakistan, India has a historic opportunity today to do exactly this, per what I wrote in bold at the end.

And why not the other way round? Why can't Pakistan do the same by demonstrating its sincerity of intent by ceasing support for and acting against terrorist groups that act against India? If Pakistan can do so, would there be any reason for India/Indians to hate Pakistan?

#592 Posted by giani_240

[Some of the interactors were not even born when partition took place. So why the hatred?]

Why the hatred between

a) Muslims and non-Muslims in Thailand?
b) Muslims and non-Muslims in China?
c) Muslims and non-Muslims in Australia?
d) Muslims and non-Muslims in Netherlands?
e) Muslims and non-Muslims in UK?
f) Muslims and non-Muslims in Germany?
g) Muslims and non-Muslims in France?
h) Muslims and non-Muslims in Greece?
i) Muslims and non-Muslims in Malta?
j) Muslims and non-Muslims in Bosnia?
k) Muslims and non-Muslims in Russia?
l) Muslims and non-Muslims in USA?
m) Muslims and non-Muslims in Belgium?
n) Muslims and non-Muslims in Israel?
o) Muslims and non-Muslims in Spain?
p) Muslims and non-Muslims in India?
q) Muslims and non-Muslims in Bangladesh?
r) Muslims and non-Muslims in Canada?
.
.
.
Muslims and non-Muslims anywhere else?

Answer: Read the koran. (you can also read Paki elementary school texbooks).

Re: # 590
Tahmed mian,

I did not express any bitterness, just a statment of fact.

My friend, me thinks you are a bit naive in believing that help from India is going to solve any problem in Pakistan. If it helps the status quo, the pro-democracy complains - like you just did. If it helps the pro-democracy folks, your military is going to throw a fit.

The way indians and the indian goverment looks at it, the more you guys stew in your own couldron, the less time you folks will have in blowing some one up in India.

On a serious note

Given the geopolitics of the sub-continent, it is not in the interest of the indian politician nor the Pakistani one to sit down and solve any bilateral issues. Because it is more beneficial to have problems since it makes it easy to rile the masses in their favour.After all the politicans need votes to remain in power to enjoy the perks.

I beleive there are no problems but there is a significant lack of trust.

When Mush came to power, a large majority of pakistanis welcomed it. (Recommend my much earlier post on this subject). After a few years of Bhutto or Nawaz, I bet a majority will be clamoring for Military rule again.

The poor man on the street has short term memory and an even shorter attention span. His needs are immediate. He will go with one who promises a quick fix. Unfortunately, there are no quick fixes.

However, a slight or even a perceived one leaves an emotional scar that even time finds to heal and which is inherited over generations.

I thought that chowk was for promoting greater understanding among peoples of the subcontinent. However, every interact session for every post turns into communal free for all - why? (moi is guilty too)

Some of the interactors were not even born when partition took place. So why the hatred? My belief is that it is an emotional thread that is being inherited via stories that grandma and grandpa told.

So my friend, there is no easy way out. No helping hand and defintely no welfare from east of the border. The long term resolution has come from within and it requires patience and some quality leadership, which has not emerged in Pakistan as yet.( I doubt if we have ever seen any in India either but at least they have been a trifle better)

With apoligies for the sermon.

giani

jang: provide me with a substitute that is politically correct then.

giani #581: So you have no quarrel with the realities of the sub-continent that I present in #436, but are so embittered that Pakistanis chose to form their own country that you are not prepared to support the democracy movement in Pakistan even if you understand it is in the significant economic and security and political interest of India itself for Pakistan to replace dictatorship with democracy.

Thanks for taking the time to read it and provide your honest comments.

All I can say is: 60 years is enough. As educated Pakistanis and Indians who are better off than the vast majority of their suffering people, we can live the luxury of nursing grudges and stoking our tender egos wile ignoring the broader interests of our respective countries only if we really couldnt care less for the broader interests of the very countries we claim to represent. The Indian government is missing a great opportunity at this time by not being more forthcoming in favor or democracy in Pakistan (and thus promoting its own longer term interests of extending influence in the region consistent with its population and growing economy). Your post indicates the reason for this may be more driven by the momentum of the past than by any vision of the future.

#588 tahmed, watch your language...we do not take the perjorative achoot lightly.

#576 arjun: I already gave you the answer to your stupid questions - and I had challenged you to go to my post #436 (the one you keep avoiding as if it was achoot) and tell me how your stupid questions change the realities I put down one bit.

So quit stalling and trying to wiggle away like an eel, and show me you can take a challenge like a man. It is for your own good. Remember: no pain, no gain.

PS: but you have to stop whining and crying muslims being killed by hinuds... you want a fight to the finish [till the last muslim child] - so you should be ready accept the consequences...

Re:borivili
"So this is a long haul train and you will loose if the previous struggles are any example, you can only decide wether you want to loose now or later."

Hahaha!! Sure. In my dreams I also imagine that I am married to Aishwariya Rai. No harm in having fantasies about Kashmir since you will never get it. You can always go to web sites and check out pictures. Hehe!!

Borivili

fair enough... you want a fight , we will give you a fight - till the last muslim child...:)

Re: # 577
Boriwiili,

we are not born morons. Our parents and their parents and their parents and so on ensured that they were not brothers and sisters or first coursins.

Did yours ?

shishapa, giani:

I do not know the answer to your question. The BJP has shown over the years that it is quite capable of changing its colours to suit the prevalent situation. The reality of the Indian situation is that Muslims hold the balance of power in 100-125 Parliamentary seats and no party can come to power which is actively opposed by them.

Re: # 579

DM Sahib,

you have got to admit that BJP showed class in its restrain and in its attempt to hold out a hand of friendship to Pakistan.

And yes, if it did not have to depend on psuedo secularists for staying in power, Article 370 would have been history.

Boriwilli,

Its easy to become a terrorist and start killing with a blindfold on - call it Jihad peehad or whatever,

Re: # 456

Tahmed Mian,

I have no quarrel with your geopolitical view of the sub continent. Magar taali do hath se bajti hai.

So it is okay to ask for support for freedom. But current situation is something the Pakistanis brought it upon themselves. Mind you I am not saying that muslims brought it upon themselves.

The mere act of partition underlined the fact that here was a group of people - followers of a religion who did not want to live with followers of another religion and wanted a separate homeland - mind you there was no plebisite held to determine if the common people really wanted this or was it power grab by a bunch of elites.

So Pakistan and pakistanis represent a group of people who did not want to live with all that constitutes Indians.

What kind of action/ response do you expect from persons when you tell them you do not like them? Hug you?

So a mere act of cab drivers giving free rides or building swami narayan temples does not address the key issue.

So logically, I do not see a solution to the problem you raise.

DMji,

Do you think if BJP had absolute majority in parliament
it would have repealed/removed the Article 370?

arjun#571:

"it's kuldip nayyar clones like you who've kept india from taking reasonable steps like repealing article 370..."

How does article 370 prevent the BJP govt. from bombing jihadi training camps in POK? And while article 370 is one of the tragic legacies of Nehru, why did the BJP not do a thing to remove it while it was in power?

Nelson Mandela at one point was the most dangerous armed fighter in south africa by your definition he was a terrorist. Any way we dont care, your Jihadi is our freedom fighter and we will keep fighting irrespective of what Musharraf, bush or the indian PM does until the majority of kashmiris get what they want.

O hindus are you born morons? 80% of Kashmir has been muslim for hundreds of years now, if they dont want hindus ruling them their struggle is not terorism, just as the Viet Cong's struggle was not terrorism, nor was that of Irish revolutionaries or of the ANC or of hundreds of other struggles.

It is incumbent on every adult muslim male to wage Jihad/armed struggle if his coreligionists are being opressed. and as long as islam and muslims exists this will cotinue wehere ever muslim land is occupied, wether in Palestine, Chechniya or Kashmir.

So this is a long haul train and you will loose if the previous struggles are any example, you can only decide wether you want to loose now or later.

#573 Posted by tahmed32 on August 8, 2007 11:14:06 am

I asked you a straight forward question. If you've answered it, it shouldn't be so hard to paste the response again... unless you're trying to avoid the question all together because you know you've been exposed as a phony...

#561 Posted by dost_mittar on August 8, 2007 10:37:50 am


On the other hand, your posts merely create/deepen hatred for India/Indias/Hindus among Pakistanis


sure pal..the pakis come to the internet without an ounce of hatred in them...they read my posts and bam!! they turn bat shit crazy..

face it...the politeness and the bhaichara and the we-don't-support-islamic-terrorism thing is just a veneer...scratch the surface and the real paki reveals himself...

it's kuldip nayyar clones like you who've kept india from taking reasonable steps like repealing article 370...

not to worry...people don't live forever.

Re: # 537

clifton saheba,

desecrated temples are not to be used for worship. Any idol that has a defect or develops a crack or is "khandit" (broken) cannot be used for worship again.

That is why I am talking about new temples.

I just want to know - how many new temples were constructed in Pakistan post partition???

The answer would perhaps be too obvious.

So, given the past reality, would PAkistanis allow me to build a huge swami narayan temple on their muslim land???

And, even if it is allowed to be built, would they allow it to remain standing or perhaps bomb it in another moment of frenzy ?

#571 arjun: re-read #543. then read #572. cheers!!

OK. my seemingly unlimited chowk time is now used up. I shall be back later. So, arjun, giani, subhashjoshi: take your time to think about what I have written in #456. I am sure you can do better than what you have done so far.

Dost Mittar: just count your blessings you are counted as a "kuldip nayyar" by your countrymen. According to Masadi, I am a peon of the west. And to this I can add the honors just bestowed by Indians infuriated by my presenting certain ground realities which I have asked them to think about above in the meantime. Perhaps you can help them along here. :-)

#569 Posted by tahmed32 on August 8, 2007 11:00:12 am


On Modi, as I told arjun, it doesnt matter which list he belongs to in the US.


You said he was on the terrorist list..a claim shown to be patently false as is obvious by your furious backtracking...

giani #564: writing gibberish on the internet requires "gonads"?

dost mittar #561 welcome to the mid-afternoon chowk chai party.

On Modi, as I told arjun, it doesnt matter which list he belongs to in the US. The important fact is that as an elected chief minister in India, he was denied permission to enter the US on account of his association with the gujerat murders of indian muslims. That is what Indians need to remind themselves every time they feel like jumping on a moral pedestal to preach to Pakistanis about nurturing criminals in their midst. In fact (to take borrow the moral pedestal for a second for Pakistan), unlike Indians, we dont elect criminals and persona non grata in other countries to high office. :-)

On your advice to arjun: that is good advice, and exactly the point I have tried to make in #456. I have yet to have any of your countrymen take up my challenge to focus on the realities I present there, with arjun studiously avoiding any reference to it!! So much for chowk as the cross-roads of ideas or discussion.

While satisfying their petty little minds by gloating about India and tarring Pakistanis as terorists, Indians like arjun ignore the fact they are doing exactly what Ben Laden and Musharraf (for different reasons) would love to see them do, and exactly what is in the worst interest of Indians themselves.

subhasjoshi #566: get a grip on yourself. I know reality is hard to face, but be brave. You can fix your problems, like I suggested you do before I am willing to waste my precious chowk time with you.

giani_240#564:

My post to arjun was in response to his constant taunting me to be a Kuldip Nayar clone (even though I paid full fare to taxi drivers in Pakistan :-))

AND HOW MANY MILLIONS DID YOU KILL?

SO HOW DID YOU BUTCHER HINDUS AND WHY, TAHMED UNCLE?

WHY IS THAT NOT A CRIME IN YOUR SHAMELESS EYES?

YOU WILL HAVE TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION, IF NOT TO ME, THEN AT LEAST TO YOURSELF.

DM Sahib,

please let me preface by saying that I have a lot of respect for you and I have also chastised Arjun severely in the past for his stance. However, in this instance with the series of interacts with Tahmed, I have to humbly disagree with you and goad Arjun on. At least he is showing some gonads.

cheers

giani

cheers

Further to # 562 Tahmedji

And of course you are unable to say where is the gaali/galoch in my post, right?

Guruji that's what you have been saying since time immemorial (sorry for cliche) to Arjun here, and yet you keep responding to him.

So, what happened to Hindus of Pakistan? Make a nice plausible story of it (deNile is very far from where you were born, hahaha.)

laddu:

Do you know if any Hindu request to build a temple was refused by Pakistani govt.? Here is a suggestion: Raise donations for building a Swami Narayan temple in Lahore or Karachi, get some local Hindus (yes, there are still some, at least in Karachi!) to submit a proposal to their govt. for building the temple there and if the request is rejected, you would have a solid case to present.

tahmed32:

You would be more accurate if you called Modi Persona Non Grata in the US, as he has not been called a terrorist by any American agency.

arjun:

I have no shame in admitting that I have close affinity with Punjabis across the border and I feel quite at home in their company. But my stance towards Pakistan is based on realpolitik and not on any sentimental grounds. In fact, I would have fully supported the Indian govt. if it had followed jihadis across the border in hot pursuit or bombed out their training camps in POK. But Indians did not have the gonads to do that. On the other hand, your posts merely create/deepen hatred for India/Indias/Hindus among Pakistanis and I don't see how this hatred is of any benefit to India/Indians/Hindus.

giani: what part of #456 (the post I have been challenging your countrymen to read and either acknowledge the realities presented there, or else tell me what is wrong) sounds like obfuscation to you?

#553: subhasjoshi you wrote And pray tell me which part of my post is a gaali/galoch?

either you are trying to be cleverer than you are, or you are incapable of distinguishing between a discussion and namecalling. either way, i am not wasting more of my precious chowk time with you until you have fixed your problem.

Re: # 549 Giani

Yaar Im just having some fun with this Paki Pontiff Tahmed.

But you are right, chowk is a waste of time, that's why I post only when I'm getting too bored and have some absolutely free time, which is not very often.

Anyways, goodnight.

clifton bridge #555 I just read his response. He ignored my sincere advice to stop picking on isolated phrases and learn to read entire sentences in suggestion #543. And so will keep harping about Paki terrorist cab drivers and Indian IT billionaires, incapable of having a coherent discussion, unwilling to face reality.

Re: # 554 Bridge on De Nile

Look who is talking of deNile, hahaha!

Anyways, goodnight Paki prevaricators! let the blood of hindu heathens not haunt you in your sweet dreams. We forgive you, for tonight.

heya Tahmed ! arjun will emerge wiser and smarter i am sure :)

arjun so in your fair and biased view of the world the indian govt has not deliberately killed innocent civilians ? do you also live in De Nile?

Re: # 547 Tahmed

And pray tell me which part of my post is a gaali/galoch?

Forget comparison with the choice epithets you are greeted with by assorted Mohajirs and Max'es. Just tell me, where is "gaali"? But you are shameless to the core.

Re: # 545 Tahmed the Obfuscator

So you don't have anything to say about the systematic liquidation of Hindu population in Pakistan. You can only rant endlessly "Modi Modi Modi Modi".

#543 Posted by tahmed32 on August 8, 2007 9:27:08 am


Remain arjun the nut, or become arjun the chowk statesman.


yes prophet tahmed..that's what indians live for...to be recognized as statesmen by a bunch of jihadi loving pakis...

#546 Posted by cliftonbridge on August 8, 2007 9:49:52 am


arjun your govt believes in killing innocent civilians too


I think you have the indian government confused with the paki army that killed a million bangladeshis...

and when civilians do get killed by the indian army when it's running an anti-paki-jihadi operation, tough nails...collateral damage that wouldn't have occurred if you hadn't sent in paki jihadis in the first place..

Subhash,

you are trying to engage Tahmed in a logical discourse. My advice is to stop wasting your time. His posts in response to Arjun should make it amply clear that getting him to think and discuss logically is a herculean task

cb: greetings. please dont detract arjun from the challenging assignment he is undertaking. I have no doubt that he will be much better equipped to understand what you are saying once he has completed his "Back to Reality" course as described in #543. :-)

subhash: as for your gaali-galooch, kindly try to refrain from that. I dont respond to gaalis.

arjun your govt believes in killing innocent civilians too and i have yet to hear you apologise about that.

subash: shhhhhh....dont try to get arjun off the hook from what I have written in #543. This is for his own good. I am giving individual attention to one genius here.

If you wish to take up my challenge to arjun separately, you are welcome - but focus on the challenge, rather than by tryhing to create a distraction.

Re: # 543 Tahmed chachoo

Guruji aap eik baat ka jawaab to deejiye : how many hindus were there in Pakistan at the time of partition and how many are there now? You start blurting Modi-Fodi etc etc at the drop of a hat. You don't feel ashamed at all, hainji? The treatment meted out to your minorities, it doesn't perturb your conscience, or you don't have one, hainji?
India mein to eik ya do ya dus Modi hain, aapke yahan to saali poori qaum hi ModiyoN kee hai. Besharm kahin ke, lahaul bila...

arjun #536 You seem to have difficulty comprehending anything more than isolated phrases. Here is what you should do:

Re-read all three lines of my post #534 very slowly, until the meaning of the entire sentence sinks in.

Next, once you have succesfully demonstrated your understanding of #534, you can go into advanced english comprehension, and read my post #533. This is more challenging since it consists of - sit down on a chair for this - four entire sentences!!

Third, having successfully demonstrated understanding of #533, you are ready for (drum roll) real time. For this, go to my post #456 (the one I have been reminding you about, and which you have been studiously ignoring) and study the ground realities I have presented there.

THEN come back and either accept my challenge to tell my how your hallucinations are stand up before the ground realities I have presented in #456, or else keep hallucinating about "paki terrorists" and "Indian IT billionaires". The choice is yours. Remain arjun the nut, or become arjun the chowk statesman.

#540 Posted by cliftonbridge on August 8, 2007 9:21:06 am


I actually dont support killing innocent civilians anywhere for any ideology.


I might be reluctantly willing to accept that YOU don't but your government sure does...and let's not kid ourselves..most of your fellow pakis were completely on board with the whole jihad thingy..and that includes paki-americans whose love of jihad only went into the closet when the TSA probes started going deeper at airports..

Re: # 538 arjun

Not asking cabfare is their style for doing "munh mein ram-ram aur bagal mein chhuri". Only a maudlin K Nayar clone falls for such nautanki.

I actually dont support killing innocent civilians anywhere for any ideology.

"cliftonbi, its the bunnies that make rattlesnake hunting impossible..muddy up the waters"....i agree, if only there were a pure rattlesnake race in the world :(

#537 Posted by cliftonbridge on August 8, 2007 9:15:02 am


forget laddu: most of us prefer that you not support islamic terrorism rather than having your wear a bindi or whatever...

same thing goes for prophet tahmed who tells us kuldip nayyar wannabes weren't charged cab fare by the paki cab drivers..how about you charge double fare and not support islamic terrorism, huh?

"As I said earlier, I would certainly like to know Pakistanis who are willing to wear a bindi, choori and wear sindur. And ofcourse throw away that horrible attire called burqa". I dont routinely wear either one of those outfits and are both somewhat alien to me, but i certainly wouldnt die at the thought of wearing either one.

"Ofcourse say - Namaste without worrying about what their maulavi saheb says about it".
again namaste is not a natural greeting fear of maulvi sahabs is very low on my list of emotions.


"I would love to interact with Pakistanis who do not squirm in their seats when I openly declare my veneration for my deity and when I perform puja on its idols."
I am not squirming, religion can be a great thing ,i hope your faith makes you a better person.

"I would love to see the day when a new 100 acre Swami Narayan Temple is constucted on the muslim lands."
i would like to see that too, but realistically like i said the population of hindus went down by 1000% so even the existing temples were underutilized.

prophet tahmed: Show me which terrorist list modi is on...I'll show you which terrorist list the paki terrorist groups are one..the groups armed, funded and trained by your government...

should be easy to do, right? objective criteria..post the link to the list...

shishapa: see #534 for my response on Modi. Perhaps, instead of joining arjun in beating around the bush while avoiding realities, you would care to focus on some of the subcontinent realities that I listed in #456. Perhaps that way we can actually have a discussion on chowk that is something more than a bunch of comedians acting out their fantasies of being the Grand Inquisitor (arjun).

PS: to #533 and as for your beating around the bush, not that it is important - by trying to split hairs in #527 and again in #530 on exactly which list Modi is on, you dont hide the reality that Modi was refused a US visa on account of his terrorist activities in gujerat.

arjun #530, #527 #526

Three posts that beat around the bush, while studiously avoiding what would be the starting point for any consideration for anyone who wishes his views to be treated as anything more than a joke: namely, the ground realities I challenged you to focus on and find fault on if you can. The invitation to accept my challenge remains open. Otherwise, you are doing nothing more than what Musharraf and Ben Laden, LeT etc., (for different reasons, of course), would love for you to do: paint Pakistanis as being supportive of islamist terrorism.

To keep repeating the obvious, with spiteful, stupid men like you trying to portray yourselves as representing India and/or the US (which you understand little more than the stupid little US slang words you have tried to pick up), neither India, nor the US, needs any enemies.

laddu

Why do you want pakis doing all those hinud stuff... let them just be pakis...

lookie what we have here...reality shows it' hateful anti-pakiland colors again...

Maryland Man Sentenced for Involvement with Al Qaeda

The United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, Michael J. Garcia, announced Wednesday in a press release that Mahmud Faruq Brent was sentenced this morning to 15 years in prison. The 15 year sentence was the maximum sentence under the charges Brent was facing. Brent was charged with conspiring to provide material support to a foreign terrorist organization. This organization, Lashkar-e-Taiba (translated "Army of the Pure"), is committed to violence against the United States and its allies.

The judge in this case, Judge Loretta A. Preska, stated that terrorist fighters like Brent make it possible for these terrorist organizations to put their terror into practice. Brent also traveled to Pakistan to train with the Lashkar-e-Taiba. The judge also stated that after completing his military training in Pakistan, Brent returned to the United States awaiting an opportunity to put what he had learned into practice.

The investigation leading up to this sentence revealed that Brent, along with other accomplices, traveled to Pakistan to receive training, and then returned to the United States. Brent was living in Baltimore, Maryland upon his return. Brent has, during this time, received martial arts training from Tarik Shah. Shah was a co-defendant who pleaded guilty to conspiring to provide material support to al Qaeda. Upon further investigation, Shah's address book led authorities to Brent. The FBI had been monitoring Shah's communication and had recorded telephone conversations of him mentioning that Brent could be trusted. Shah also planned to invite Brent to participate in martial arts training videos for the training of jihadists.

Shah was subsequently arrested and used as bait to find out more about Brent. Shah agreed to meet with Brent and allow the FBI to monitor his communications. During this meeting, Brent further implicated himself in the terrorist scheme. Brent encouraged Shah to attend the training camps, but stated that it was difficult to trust people. He said, "We don't know who is who." Brent also said, "We were not in a position to make new friends." Brent also revealed that he had agreed to provide whatever "assistance" he could to the terrorist organization, and he hoped that Allah would bless him for his efforts.

Brent was later arrested. A search of his residence revealed jihad training videos, recording by radical clerics, and a computer which showed Brent had visited the Lashkar-e-Taiba website. The webpage encouraged those wishing to fight the enemies of Allah to attend the training camps.

The FBI, the New York City Police Department, and the New York Joint Terrorism Task Force all took part in this investigation.

#522 Posted by tahmed32 on August 8, 2007 5:10:59 am



harish_hyd #519 No doubt the US terrorist list LeT. It also includes Modi, elected Chief Minister of Gujerat. Does this mean that the US is going to be concerned with LeT or Modi in the same manner as it is wrt al Qaeda?


"moderate/liberal" tahmed tries to pull a fast one...

1. modi isn't on the SD terrorist list
2. why, yes...the US does consider the LeT to be in cahoots with the AQ...prophet tahmed knows about this...the virginia jihad network was prosecuted next door, in virginia..
3. The london bombers trained in camps run by the "indigenou freedom fighting groups" that prophet tahmed supports...

Re: # 509

clifton sahiba ji,

Adaab,

As I said earlier, I would certainly like to know Pakistanis who are willing to wear a bindi, choori and wear sindur. And ofcourse throw away that horrible attire called burqa. And ofcourse say - Namaste without worrying about what their maulavi saheb says about it.
I would love to interact with Pakistanis who do not squirm in their seats when I openly declare my veneration for my deity and when I perform puja on its idols.
I would love to see the day when a new 100 acre Swami Narayan Temple is constucted on the muslim lands.

#511 Posted by cliftonbridge on August 7, 2007 9:44:55 pm

I see..so if you kids are playing around a snake, you'll think happy happy thoughts and the snake will morph into a harmless lovable fuzzball bunny?

good idea..let them do that..

darwin will do his thing and make sure the gene pool of humanity has fewer idiots propagating themselves..

Modi is not on the terrorist list...prophet tahmed is pulling stuff out of hiss paki rear..and all just to cover for the fact that he condones terrorism but can't come out and say it...

there's two kinds of pakis..the kind that openly says they support terrorism and the other kind: liars..

#517 Posted by tahmed32 on August 8, 2007 4:40:53 am


Another ground reality I did not mention is - the US (and the rest of the world) sees the fighting in Kashmir in a totally different light than it sees 9/11


Nice try, but no cookie...

Why are the LeT etc on the terrorist list?

And about the way the US sees things, ever heard of the virginia jihad network? yes...that's virginia, next door to gaithesburg...Planning to feign ignorance? no problem...I'll help you out..

google earch for virginia jihad network kashmir

So what has Mr. Modi done that Mr. Jinnah has not done?
Why is Modi on the terrorist list now and Jinnah was not
on the terrorist list then?

yar borivli, didnt you read the noose or you got stuck on platform 2 at kandivli...sanjay dutt was convicted. he is at least half-hindu, after all his name is that of a famous mahabharat charoteer and reciter.

cliftonbi, its the bunnies that make rattlesnake hunting impossible..muddy up the waters, provide deniability for the states jihadi actions. tahmed is a great example. hopefefully borivli local will remove the cobwebs from tahmeds toungue ;-)