Science and the Islamic world --- The quest for rapprochement

Great article as always Dr. Hoodbhoy

I see from table 1 that India *seems* to be doing well in terms of number of papers and citations.

However, I suspect that a majority of the papers are in poorly refereed journals.

The Indian scientific and technological educational system is one where there are a few islands of excellence in a vast ocean of mediocrity. Even the few excellent institutions are also geared towards producing high quality undergraduates or at the most masters students who can feed the needs of the IT industry machine or other growth sectors requiring technical graduates such as manufacturing and pharma. There are very few high quality research groups or research institutions. Except for TIFR, IISc, Chennai Math Institute and a few others the situation is actually quite bleak. The situation is a little rescued by the recent emergence of a number of industry sponsored research labs such as Microsoft research, IBM, GM and a raft of native Indian industry labs. Some of these are doing good work in formal and / or in advanced industrial research areas such as work on new material and in formal verification of software.

Part of the problem which I think you mentioned in another article you wrote after a visit to India is that the primary and secondary educational systems that lay the foundations from which researchers emerge is not conducive to creative problem solving but to earning marks in highly structured, highly predictable exam systems. The latter are geared towards creating memory machines who can replicate word for word what they have been taught.

It is however encouraging that at long last the current government has woken up to reworking the foundations so that in 10-15 years we may see a new dynamic emerging

Here's a tale of two Pakistani self-haters and defeatists who enjoy every moment of hating themselves and their country: Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy and Asma Jahangir.
Whenever there is a writing project in any newspaper anywhere in the world where they want to bash Pakistan using a Pakistani name, they call one man in Islamabad: Dr. Hoodbhoy. He spews more venom against Pakistan than Hamid Karzai and Bal Thackery - an Indian Hindu terrorist - combined.
Asma Jahangir, another defeatist who went to India to shake the hands of Narendar Modi, the killer of 2500 Indian Muslims, has just volunteered to Hindustan Times to confirm that Mumbai terror was a Pakistani conspiracy [see below].
Here's a letter sent by a Pakistani young man to Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy, a Pakistani self-hater, and received no reply. And then watch Asma Jahangir's video.
Recommendation: We need to start a witch-hunt in Pakistan to cleanse our academia and public life of such self-haters and defeatists who poison the minds of young Pakistanis about their homeland. Such academics and human rights activists should not be allowed to hide behind the freedom of expression.
TO: Dr. Pervaiz A. Hoodbhoy
Professor and Chairman
Physic Department
Quaid-e-Azam University,
Islamabad.
E-mail: hoodb...@lns.mit.edu

NATION WILL NEVER FORGIVE YOU

Dear Dr Pervaiz Hoodbhoy Sahib,

I have been reading your articles and research reports and watching your interviews on different TV channels on different issues. I have tried to go through your articles again and again to satisfy myself that whatsoever you are speaking in the name of freedom of speech is just an ordinary criticism and could be a difference of opinion.
But I regret to say that I am unable to do so. In dozens of your articles and interviews you have never ever said a single positive thing about Pakistan and have always tried to portray a false picture of Pakistan, according to which Pakistan is a failed state. Whether it's the issue of extremism, or Pakistan's nuclear assets, or Pak-India relations, or if there is an issue of western and Indian allegations, you have always come up with your nasty ideas to prove to the world community that whatever the enemies of Pakistan are saying, you are more than happy to say it from them, using a Pakistani identity, which is an act for which you feel no shame.

I am not sure if Pakistanis have seen your massive one-man campaign against Pakistan where you have alleged that we are not capable of retaining our nuclear assets. Or, now, after the Mumbai attacks, when even the cheapest of Pakistani politicians have shown some kind of patriotism and unity for the sake of Pakistan, at this crucial time again you are trying to prove what the enemies of Pakistan are trying to do. I fail to understand what motivates you except gaining popularity in West or even in India.

India is a so-called democracy where low caste Hindus, Christians and Muslims are burned alive [a ritual unique to India, doesn't happen anywhere else], where Hindu extremists are in the government, where groups like Bajrang Dal are trained in Indian Army schools. But India seems like Switzerland after reading one of your articles on India, especially the one you wrote recently after a visit to India. India's terrorist and rogue intelligence agency, RAW, which is funding and supporting separatist movements in our tribal belt and in Balochistan, continues to be an untouchable issue for you. What really is important for you is to put all your efforts toward portraying a negative Pakistan.

I give you an example from the history which you will find self explanatory in reference to our current scenario.

I am not sure if our enemies will impose a war on Pakistan or not but at this crucial stage all your efforts to distort Pakistan's image is not going to remain unnoticed and the nation will never forgive you for what you have done.

Wassalam.

Waqas Ahmed
Muscat, Sultanate of Oman

Re: # 593

Hi,

I agree. Most religious books including Bible and some of the Smrities are books that have hate verses.

The difference between muslims world and the rest of the followers of other faiths is that muslims seem to believe in each and every verse from Quran or even Hadith. But this is not true of modern day Christians or Hindus who do not flich an eye is rejecting some regresive part of their tradition-

the same is not true of muslim. Most of them remain apologetic about the hate verses which have spurred terrorism all over the world .

I think so the first task of all universities should be to protect freedom of expression. In Pakistani university campuses there should not be any mosques. It is okay to not to have book stores because there are always libraries which students can use.

During examination season some libraries can be opened 24 hours and at least one reading room in campus should be open at least from dawn to midnight (if not 24 hours) all 7 days a week. Such reading room may have light reading materials also and a very truncated collection of most popular academic books and newspapers. That way serious archival functions (if any) are kept away from browsing crowd.

In India (and I am sure in Pakistan also) there is no public library system to speak of. Many uprooted university graduates are forced to use local university libraries to keep their professional knowledge current. This too is restricted. I have been denied entry into IIT,Kgp and IIT,Bombay sometime.

If you are a university graduate then you should be issued a letter of reference or a Photo-ID to permit willing librarians of local universities to let you use material at their reading rooms. Ideally the uprooted academics who want to keep in touch with their fields should be allowed some borrowing privileges from non-archival collections of university libraries.

Although I have not been able to verify following story about Edwin Land who invented Polaroid camera I am writing it anyways. It is said that he made major portions of his research by gaining clandestine access to the university laboratory.

When a student in university he would become easily distracted by an idea that happened to occur to him and then neglect his regular study to pursue that idea. His wife used to prod him to solve quizzes he was to hand in to his professor and then she would write out the answers and give them to professor.

If "clandestine lab work" story is correct then that is clear indication of heaven in which he lived. Such heaven unfortunately for our scientists can see in their dreams only.

"yeah...post #436 where prophet tahmed(pbuh) claims to have come clean isn't by the prophet anyway..post 435 is but it refers to some other post... "

it is #456 where crazy mullah has audacity to threaten with nuclear holocaust. His Point #2 is as follows:

"2. Indians have every practical reason to seek good relations with Pakistan - militarily, Pakistan has the means to cause a nuclear holocaust in the sub-continent if it came to an existential threat; strategically, India has no choice but to have good relations Pakistan in order to establish links of its growing economy with the middle east (as in case of the gas pipeline) and central asia (e.g. road trade with Afghanistan and even, later, with China via silk route); and to compete in the global marketplace, it is in the Indian interest to have the world see South Asia as a region of peace where investors need not fear future wars."

[India has no choice but to have good relations Pakistan]

yani ke kashmiri khilona tumko chahiye hi chahiye varna tum udham machate hi rahoge. to phir saf saf kyun nahin kahte. kashmir dena padega eisa bolo na. kya mid-east, kya silk routes? India's economic juggernaut is unstoppable. chahe pakistan kitna bhi misbehave karle. nuksan paskitan ka hi hei.

yeah...post #436 where prophet tahmed(pbuh) claims to have come clean isn't by the prophet anyway..post 435 is but it refers to some other post...

tahmed saheb:

You have made dozens of references to "your" post#436. Have you clicked on post#436?

next week, it'll be 60 years since independence


India: confident democracy, booming economy, education system recognized by the world, IT industry

Pakiland: Rice had to call mushy at 2am to stop him declaring an emergency, government making up numbers to boost the GDP, Paki army bombing it's own citizens and using white phosphorus against them...world renowned education system(madrassahs)...IT(Islamic Terrorism) boom...

#603 by tahmed32

Actually, given the economic and military realities underlying India-Pakistan relations in point #2 of my post #436, any responsible Indian would give two hoots - and more - about peace and stability within Pakistan. If they are interested in the interests of people in India, i.e., rather than in merely stoking their own tender egos and insecurities.

India has negligible trade with Pakistan yet its economy is growing at a furious pace. As for military power, even during the Kargil war, India chose not to attack Paki territory despite having a valid reason to do so, so why do you even entertain the thought that India has eyes on Pakistan? As for egos and insecurities, the fact that you refer to Pakistan's military power and nuclear assets at every given opportunity, even when the discussion is far removed from the subject betrays your own insecurity and paranoia.

Read point 1 of my post #436 on the the realities of Pakistan that thousands of Indians saw for themselves when they actually visited Pakistan. How does what you say above jive with the realities I present there?

Are you denying that there exist Chanda boxes where Pakis make contributions to the Jihad against Indian forces in Kashmir? Are you denying that Pakistan arms and trains Kashmiri terrorists who carry out terrorist acts in India? So why should India be swayed by the experiences of a few Indians who visited Pakistan?

#456 Posted by tahmed32


[1. The warm welcome given to Indians visiting Pakistan. This came as a surprise to many Indians who visited Pakistan in large numbers a couple of years ago to watch the test matches. Cab drivers refused to accept payment for their services, crowds applauded Indian players when they scored (and the only person booed in Lahore was a local politician), Indians reported being treated in a more friendly and respectful manner by Pakistani police than their own Indian police ever did. No one, not even Islamist parties, attacked any of the thousands of Indians (or idol-worshippers, as you have been referring to yourself) who came to Pakistan then. Sikhs visiting Pakistan for far longer have always known this basic friendly nature of the average Pakistani. ]

That's no good, if you also support terrorists in Kashmir.


[2. Indians have every practical reason to seek good relations with Pakistan - militarily, Pakistan has the means to cause a nuclear holocaust in the sub-continent if it came to an existential threat;]


This is idiotic logic. Why is "bad relations" being equated to an "existential threat"? India can have AS MUCH bad relations with Pakiland AS LONG as it likes. What is Pakiland going to do? In fact, I hope India continues to give a cold shoulder to Pakiland for the foreseeable future.


[strategically, India has no choice but to have good relations Pakistan in order to establish links of its growing economy with the middle east (as in case of the gas pipeline) and central asia (e.g. road trade with Afghanistan and even, later, with China via silk route); and to compete in the global marketplace, it is in the Indian interest to have the world see South Asia as a region of peace where investors need not fear future wars.]

India DOES NOT HAVE TO trade with the central asian countries. And even if it did, it could use routes OTHER THAN the ones through Pakiland.

India can trade with China using MANY OTHER routes other than routes through Pakiland. And a lot of the Silk Route is OUTSIDE of Pakiland.

Whenever Muslims are involved, there will be no peace, in any case.


[So, put two and two together - Pakistanis are not the bloodthirsty idol-breakers that individual like Jay Thakeray and Ajeya and so many others on chowk try to portray them (as did those from whom you got this impression before coming to chowk). They are normal people, struggling today to gain their freedom from a power-hungry general and his fascist allies. ]

Then WHY are their Paki textbooks the way they are? If one looks through the thousand years of Muslim rulers in India, one would think Hindus have been the victims - not the other way around.



[Today is the time for Indians to stand up and be counted as being supporters of freedom for Pakistan, rather than to seek to demonize them by equating them with the worst of the fascists they are in facting struggling against. I have no doubt that Pakistanis will long remember who stood by them, and who stood aside and merely enjoyed their predicament, during these historic days in Pakistan. ]

I think Islam's nature is not going to change. It is the same in EVERY country, Hindu or no Hindu. It has been the SAME throughout history. I think now is the time for Hindus to be alert and vigilant against the coming deluge of Islamic activity.

Masadi wrote:

"There is no conflict here with the scientific methodology, as there is absolutley no conflict between religion and science, according to the Quran which invites people to use it to arrive at the truth, and then "after the fact" confirm the Quran's statements."

The scientific methodology means all facts are subject to scrutiny. Science is not facts known at one point of time. Science is its method. Facts are its bye-products. In that method all facts are ephmeral and subject to suspicion and revision. Before a revision can be made new facts should be found. And before one embarks on a mission to find new facts a scientist should be allowed to bring into his mind a doubt about old facts or old interpretations. And he should be allowed to express his doubts without his head being chopped off. In science there are no last prophets, there no theory which not a "work in progress". There is no theory which is complete and therefore above question.

Can you convincingly argue that this is the case in case of Islam? In Islam there is conflict between religion and science because religion is presented as ready made theory which is complete in every respect and which should not be questioned.

If the Quran invites people to use it to arrive at the truth and then enjoins upon such qusi-scientists to confirm the Quran's statements only then where is the freedom to bring doubt about Quran and freedom to express it in so many words, and that "not confirming" and refutation of its statements is not allowed (in other words, Quran cannot be subject to scrutiny, it is off limits, untouchable) under the pain of threat of death, then Quran cannot be basis of science.

#614 Posted by tahmed32 on August 9, 2007 2:47:50 pm


when you try to paint Pakistanis as terrorists



pray tell. why were pakis the first among the people required to register after 9/11? Isn't it because pakis are considered by the GOTUS to be most likely to be terrorists?

why is the FBI checking passport information at exit points at paki airports?

why are pakis subject to extra scrutiny when they land at US airports..

pakis come pre-painted..there's no need to paint anything on them..

giani/subhashjoshi/channai/arjun: The truth is there in #436 to which I keep directing your attention. Only giani has chosen to comment on it and been honest enough to acknowledge that he cannot argue with the facts I presented. The rest of you are merely beating around the bush, trying to be clever.

And the implication of the reality as presented in #436 is also inescapable: when you try to paint Pakistanis as terrorists, this serves no purpose other than to stoke your own personal insecurities - since the Indian interest is not in ridiculing Pakistan (which is there, and is going to be there stronger than ever, regardless of what you wish) or Pakistanis, but in being seen as being on the side of the Pakistani people.

Bush understood that today when he called for free and fair elections in Pakistan a couple of days after Musharraf announced his intention to have unfree and unfair elections (i.e. to get rubber stamped for another 5 years in uniform by the current assembly).

And giani #612: You express surprise that (unlike the way all of you came running to poor arjun's aid), I dont need moral support from anyone when I write. All I am concerned about is that what I write makes sense.

Cheers. God bless you merry gentlemen of India. :-)

Boriwilli,

you got that right. you are surely related to us!!! You see you are second person to have called me a moron. The first one was my dad. He use to say giani you moron stop chasing boriwilli's mom, she is your sister. Alas, he was a bit late. You were already on the way

Re: # 610

Subhash,

I do not think Tahmed has anything to say. Unfortunately, he seems to be a victim of the herd mentality whereby any perceived ill towards muslims is blown out of proportion but there is an absolute silence when they are busy blowing themseleves and other people up.

I suprised to see that people like YLH, echo, zeemax etc have just disappeared leaving Tahmed as the lone torch bearer. I guess truth and reality hurts

Pakistan weighs state of emergency
Musharraf cancels trip to Afghanistan. He is to convene his Cabinet and other senior officials today to discuss the step.
By Laura King
August 9, 2007


President Pervez Musharraf, who for months has been under enormous domestic political pressure to step aside or give up his role as army chief, was considering imposing a state of emergency, news reports and senior Pakistani officials said early today.

Musharraf, considered a key U.S. ally, was to convene his Cabinet and other senior officials later today to discuss the step, which would give his government wide-ranging powers, including the ability to restrict opposition political activities, postpone elections and dissolve parliament.

Political opponents expressed deep concern over the prospective move, reports of which came hours after Musharraf abruptly canceled a scheduled trip to the Afghan capital, Kabul, where he was to have taken part in a meeting aimed at combating the presence of insurgents in the tribal belt that straddles the Afghan-Pakistani border.

An emergency declaration would mark a dramatic escalation in the political turmoil that has gripped Pakistan over the last five months, beginning with Musharraf's attempt in March to oust the independent-minded chief justice, Iftikhar Mohammed Chaudhry.

Heightened instability in Pakistan would have repercussions far beyond its borders. The U.S. says Musharraf has been a crucial ally against Taliban and Al Qaeda militants in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks.

At the same time, the Bush administration has been pressing the Pakistani leader hard to deprive the insurgents of sanctuary in the rugged, remote borderlands, particularly after last month's National Intelligence Estimate said Islamic militants had been able to regroup and rearm themselves, using Pakistan's frontier zone as a base.

Musharraf, who seized power nearly eight years ago in a coup, has seen his popularity plunge to an all-time low amid widespread dissatisfaction over his plans to continue as president while retaining his post as the chief of Pakistan's powerful military.

Chaudhry, who was reinstated by the Supreme Court last month, presents a potential impediment to Musharraf's plans to have the outgoing parliament that he controls elect him to another five-year term as president.

The high court today was scheduled to hear an appeal by former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, who was overthrown by Musharraf in 1999 and then exiled. Sharif, like former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, who also is living in exile, has said he wants to return to Pakistan to contest parliamentary elections to take place by early 2008.

Musharraf has declared he will not allow their return.

Two senior Pakistani officials, speaking on condition of anonymity and without providing details, said the emergency measure was being weighed because of Pakistan's deteriorating security situation. Pakistan's minister of state for information, Tariq Azim Khan, speaking to the Associated Press, cited "external and internal threats" facing the country.

Pakistan has been angry over official and unofficial suggestions by U.S. politicians that American forces unilaterally strike Al Qaeda figures believed to be taking shelter in Pakistan's tribal lands if Musharraf's government fails to do so.

Pakistan, which is in the midst of a major military offensive against militants in the semiautonomous border region, said any such U.S. action would violate its sovereignty.

The country in recent weeks has been plagued by suicide bombings and other attacks by Islamic militants angry over the storming of a radical mosque in the capital nearly a month ago. More than 100 people died in the raid by government forces on the Red Mosque, and at least another 250 have been killed in suicide attacks and fighting since then.

Pakistan reinforced its troop presence in the tribal areas, and a 9-month-old truce with militants in volatile North Waziristan broke down.

Musharraf's opponents questioned whether the level of violence alone was sufficient to justify an emergency declaration, suggesting his motives might be political. Bhutto, who has been in talks with Musharraf about a potential power-sharing arrangement, told Pakistan's GEO television from New York that a state of emergency would be "a negative step for the restoration of democracy."

The Bush administration was apparently caught off-guard by Musharraf's sudden announcement Wednesday that he would not attend a traditional council, or jirga, in the Afghan capital. He was to have opened the gathering today with the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai.

Musharraf said he was sending his prime minister, Shaukat Aziz, in his stead because he had other engagements in Islamabad, the capital.

--

laura.king@latimes.com

Special correspondent Mubashir Zaidi in Islamabad contributed to this report.

Re: # 568 Tahmed Chacha

Guruji, I hope you slept well.

So even today you will remain silent, as you have always been (wink wink), about the systematic and state-sponsored massacre of millions of Pakistani Hindus over the last sixty years. Right?

So, what did Modi do, please?

The real meaning of what this tahmed dude is offering is this...

Pls come to pakiland, I shall be your guest..pls invite all your near, dear ones to accompany you...if possible get your neighbours too..the only criterion, they must all be hindus...

I shall take you to Katas Raj temple wherein I get an "have to take" call on my mobile and I shall then move away from the group as far as possible without seeming to run away...

A suicide bomber, set up by this dude in advance then appears and you know the rest.....

The only dampner could be...are there mobile phones in Pakiland?

What a nice guy/statesman Musharraf is, he rejected
imposing emergency and marcial law.
Some of the hateful Pakistanis are unnecessarily berating
him, like those Pundit Hate Indians are berating ...

#606 shishapa: my parents and grandparents fled for their lives too from india in 1947. so save your sad melodies for bollywood.

When your grandparents and parents were living
amongst use, we either killed them or coverted or
kicked them out without remorse just because they
were different than us in only one aspect but you are
welcome to visit as a visitor so we will be nice to
you and/so say how nice we are.

#603 Posted by tahmed32 on August 9, 2007 5:42:25 am


on the the realities of Pakistan that thousands of Indians saw for themselves when they actually visited Pakistan.


translation from prophetese to english: we didn't charge visiting Indians cab fare and whatnot so it's ok if we do the jihadi thingy...and we're still on the moral high ground..because I, prophet tahmed(peace be unto my self-righteous left butt cheek), say so...

#601 jang: not being as smart as you, I can only write inanities. Your posts are loaded no doubt with hidden meanings that a mere mortal like me cannot comprehend.

harish_hyd: #594 Actually, given the economic and military realities underlying India-Pakistan relations in point #2 of my post #436, any responsible Indian would give two hoots - and more - about peace and stability within Pakistan. If they are interested in the interests of people in India, i.e., rather than in merely stoking their own tender egos and insecurities.

You quote me saying "They say that the best way to get rid of an enemy is to make it a friend. In Pakistan, India has a historic opportunity today to do exactly this" you respond And why not the other way round? Why can't Pakistan do the same by demonstrating its sincerity of intent by ceasing support for and acting against terrorist groups that act against India? If Pakistan can do so, would there be any reason for India/Indians to hate Pakistan?

My answer is simple: Read point 1 of my post #436 on the the realities of Pakistan that thousands of Indians saw for themselves when they actually visited Pakistan. How does what you say above jive with the realities I present there?

#601 by jang

mohar and giani, what tahmed means is we should laud his inane pontifications on the chowk.com .. that is what he means by how indians should help ;-)

giani

When mush took over - indian gov't refused to deal with him for a while - because of kargil and the fact that he toppled an elected democratic govt... but pakis were livid at the time - jumping up and down as usual accusing indians all sorts of epithets... mushy was their knight in shining armor...

And now suddenly they want indians to "help" them out against same mushy... :)

"Helping" other countries in their internal matters is risky business even in best of circumstance -e.g. srilanka... in case of a paranoid nation like pakiland - there is no chance...

borivili

you have no beef with hinuds? when did that happen ? when daisy-cutter rained down?... :)

As for "atrocities" against muslims - like I said, we may have killed 4000 - but you killed a million and counting... so actually we treating muslims better than you treat your fellow-muslims... we are not even talking about atrocities of your minorities...

if you want a fight, we will give you a fight... the choice is yours really... be peaceful and live ...or be a bedouin and fight till last muslim child[your words]...

#597 by borivili_express

Listen Ganpats We have no beef with you, we are even related to some of you but for us this life is not as dear as the next, and if you don’t stop your atrocities on muslims we will fight you till either we or u make an exit because according to islam there is no country which can surrender the rights of all muslims.

Yaar Borivili, we sympathize with you. You said for you this life is not as important as the next. We're doing our best helping you transition to the next life.

Listen Ganpats We have no beef with you, we are even related to some of you but for us this life is not as dear as the next, and if you don’t stop your atrocities on muslims we will fight you till either we or u make an exit because according to islam there is no country which can surrender the rights of all muslims.

Correction:

My post #595 was in response to #522 by tahmed.

594 Posted by harish_hyd

[They say that the best way to get rid of an enemy is to make it a friend. In Pakistan, India has a historic opportunity today to do exactly this, per what I wrote in bold at the end.]

As Urstruly will tell you, there is no PERMANENT way to make friends with Muslims as a community. On an individual level - ecrtainly. But not as a group.

Islam teaches them to make friends and be humble when things are inconvenient. But when the going is good - their true colors come out - the emphasis is then on assimilation and coercion of non-Muslims.

#522 by tahmed32

No doubt the US terrorist list LeT. It also includes Modi, elected Chief Minister of Gujerat. Does this mean that the US is going to be concerned with LeT or Modi in the same manner as it is wrt al Qaeda?

Umm..OK, so a single individual Modi being declared a persona non grata by the US is sufficient for you to equate it with the entire country of Pakistan coming close to being declared a terrorist state?

As for the US not being as concerned with the LeT as it is with the US, are you just dumb or are you pretending to be so? It is because the Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for 9/11.

Thus, for policy makers in the US (as in any other country) the prime concern is domestic security.

And your point is? If it weren't for Paki terrorist groups' operations inside India, we would give two hoots to what the LeT or the JeM are upto inside Pakistan.

They say that the best way to get rid of an enemy is to make it a friend. In Pakistan, India has a historic opportunity today to do exactly this, per what I wrote in bold at the end.

And why not the other way round? Why can't Pakistan do the same by demonstrating its sincerity of intent by ceasing support for and acting against terrorist groups that act against India? If Pakistan can do so, would there be any reason for India/Indians to hate Pakistan?

#592 Posted by giani_240

[Some of the interactors were not even born when partition took place. So why the hatred?]

Why the hatred between

a) Muslims and non-Muslims in Thailand?
b) Muslims and non-Muslims in China?
c) Muslims and non-Muslims in Australia?
d) Muslims and non-Muslims in Netherlands?
e) Muslims and non-Muslims in UK?
f) Muslims and non-Muslims in Germany?
g) Muslims and non-Muslims in France?
h) Muslims and non-Muslims in Greece?
i) Muslims and non-Muslims in Malta?
j) Muslims and non-Muslims in Bosnia?
k) Muslims and non-Muslims in Russia?
l) Muslims and non-Muslims in USA?
m) Muslims and non-Muslims in Belgium?
n) Muslims and non-Muslims in Israel?
o) Muslims and non-Muslims in Spain?
p) Muslims and non-Muslims in India?
q) Muslims and non-Muslims in Bangladesh?
r) Muslims and non-Muslims in Canada?
.
.
.
Muslims and non-Muslims anywhere else?

Answer: Read the koran. (you can also read Paki elementary school texbooks).

Re: # 590
Tahmed mian,

I did not express any bitterness, just a statment of fact.

My friend, me thinks you are a bit naive in believing that help from India is going to solve any problem in Pakistan. If it helps the status quo, the pro-democracy complains - like you just did. If it helps the pro-democracy folks, your military is going to throw a fit.

The way indians and the indian goverment looks at it, the more you guys stew in your own couldron, the less time you folks will have in blowing some one up in India.

On a serious note

Given the geopolitics of the sub-continent, it is not in the interest of the indian politician nor the Pakistani one to sit down and solve any bilateral issues. Because it is more beneficial to have problems since it makes it easy to rile the masses in their favour.After all the politicans need votes to remain in power to enjoy the perks.

I beleive there are no problems but there is a significant lack of trust.

When Mush came to power, a large majority of pakistanis welcomed it. (Recommend my much earlier post on this subject). After a few years of Bhutto or Nawaz, I bet a majority will be clamoring for Military rule again.

The poor man on the street has short term memory and an even shorter attention span. His needs are immediate. He will go with one who promises a quick fix. Unfortunately, there are no quick fixes.

However, a slight or even a perceived one leaves an emotional scar that even time finds to heal and which is inherited over generations.

I thought that chowk was for promoting greater understanding among peoples of the subcontinent. However, every interact session for every post turns into communal free for all - why? (moi is guilty too)

Some of the interactors were not even born when partition took place. So why the hatred? My belief is that it is an emotional thread that is being inherited via stories that grandma and grandpa told.

So my friend, there is no easy way out. No helping hand and defintely no welfare from east of the border. The long term resolution has come from within and it requires patience and some quality leadership, which has not emerged in Pakistan as yet.( I doubt if we have ever seen any in India either but at least they have been a trifle better)

With apoligies for the sermon.

giani

jang: provide me with a substitute that is politically correct then.

giani #581: So you have no quarrel with the realities of the sub-continent that I present in #436, but are so embittered that Pakistanis chose to form their own country that you are not prepared to support the democracy movement in Pakistan even if you understand it is in the significant economic and security and political interest of India itself for Pakistan to replace dictatorship with democracy.

Thanks for taking the time to read it and provide your honest comments.

All I can say is: 60 years is enough. As educated Pakistanis and Indians who are better off than the vast majority of their suffering people, we can live the luxury of nursing grudges and stoking our tender egos wile ignoring the broader interests of our respective countries only if we really couldnt care less for the broader interests of the very countries we claim to represent. The Indian government is missing a great opportunity at this time by not being more forthcoming in favor or democracy in Pakistan (and thus promoting its own longer term interests of extending influence in the region consistent with its population and growing economy). Your post indicates the reason for this may be more driven by the momentum of the past than by any vision of the future.

#588 tahmed, watch your language...we do not take the perjorative achoot lightly.

#576 arjun: I already gave you the answer to your stupid questions - and I had challenged you to go to my post #436 (the one you keep avoiding as if it was achoot) and tell me how your stupid questions change the realities I put down one bit.

So quit stalling and trying to wiggle away like an eel, and show me you can take a challenge like a man. It is for your own good. Remember: no pain, no gain.

PS: but you have to stop whining and crying muslims being killed by hinuds... you want a fight to the finish [till the last muslim child] - so you should be ready accept the consequences...

Re:borivili
"So this is a long haul train and you will loose if the previous struggles are any example, you can only decide wether you want to loose now or later."

Hahaha!! Sure. In my dreams I also imagine that I am married to Aishwariya Rai. No harm in having fantasies about Kashmir since you will never get it. You can always go to web sites and check out pictures. Hehe!!

Borivili

fair enough... you want a fight , we will give you a fight - till the last muslim child...:)

Re: # 577
Boriwiili,

we are not born morons. Our parents and their parents and their parents and so on ensured that they were not brothers and sisters or first coursins.

Did yours ?

shishapa, giani:

I do not know the answer to your question. The BJP has shown over the years that it is quite capable of changing its colours to suit the prevalent situation. The reality of the Indian situation is that Muslims hold the balance of power in 100-125 Parliamentary seats and no party can come to power which is actively opposed by them.

Re: # 579

DM Sahib,

you have got to admit that BJP showed class in its restrain and in its attempt to hold out a hand of friendship to Pakistan.

And yes, if it did not have to depend on psuedo secularists for staying in power, Article 370 would have been history.

Boriwilli,

Its easy to become a terrorist and start killing with a blindfold on - call it Jihad peehad or whatever,

Re: # 456

Tahmed Mian,

I have no quarrel with your geopolitical view of the sub continent. Magar taali do hath se bajti hai.

So it is okay to ask for support for freedom. But current situation is something the Pakistanis brought it upon themselves. Mind you I am not saying that muslims brought it upon themselves.

The mere act of partition underlined the fact that here was a group of people - followers of a religion who did not want to live with followers of another religion and wanted a separate homeland - mind you there was no plebisite held to determine if the common people really wanted this or was it power grab by a bunch of elites.

So Pakistan and pakistanis represent a group of people who did not want to live with all that constitutes Indians.

What kind of action/ response do you expect from persons when you tell them you do not like them? Hug you?

So a mere act of cab drivers giving free rides or building swami narayan temples does not address the key issue.

So logically, I do not see a solution to the problem you raise.

DMji,

Do you think if BJP had absolute majority in parliament
it would have repealed/removed the Article 370?

arjun#571:

"it's kuldip nayyar clones like you who've kept india from taking reasonable steps like repealing article 370..."

How does article 370 prevent the BJP govt. from bombing jihadi training camps in POK? And while article 370 is one of the tragic legacies of Nehru, why did the BJP not do a thing to remove it while it was in power?

Nelson Mandela at one point was the most dangerous armed fighter in south africa by your definition he was a terrorist. Any way we dont care, your Jihadi is our freedom fighter and we will keep fighting irrespective of what Musharraf, bush or the indian PM does until the majority of kashmiris get what they want.

O hindus are you born morons? 80% of Kashmir has been muslim for hundreds of years now, if they dont want hindus ruling them their struggle is not terorism, just as the Viet Cong's struggle was not terrorism, nor was that of Irish revolutionaries or of the ANC or of hundreds of other struggles.

It is incumbent on every adult muslim male to wage Jihad/armed struggle if his coreligionists are being opressed. and as long as islam and muslims exists this will cotinue wehere ever muslim land is occupied, wether in Palestine, Chechniya or Kashmir.

So this is a long haul train and you will loose if the previous struggles are any example, you can only decide wether you want to loose now or later.

#573 Posted by tahmed32 on August 8, 2007 11:14:06 am

I asked you a straight forward question. If you've answered it, it shouldn't be so hard to paste the response again... unless you're trying to avoid the question all together because you know you've been exposed as a phony...

#561 Posted by dost_mittar on August 8, 2007 10:37:50 am


On the other hand, your posts merely create/deepen hatred for India/Indias/Hindus among Pakistanis


sure pal..the pakis come to the internet without an ounce of hatred in them...they read my posts and bam!! they turn bat shit crazy..

face it...the politeness and the bhaichara and the we-don't-support-islamic-terrorism thing is just a veneer...scratch the surface and the real paki reveals himself...

it's kuldip nayyar clones like you who've kept india from taking reasonable steps like repealing article 370...

not to worry...people don't live forever.

Re: # 537

clifton saheba,

desecrated temples are not to be used for worship. Any idol that has a defect or develops a crack or is "khandit" (broken) cannot be used for worship again.

That is why I am talking about new temples.

I just want to know - how many new temples were constructed in Pakistan post partition???

The answer would perhaps be too obvious.

So, given the past reality, would PAkistanis allow me to build a huge swami narayan temple on their muslim land???

And, even if it is allowed to be built, would they allow it to remain standing or perhaps bomb it in another moment of frenzy ?

#571 arjun: re-read #543. then read #572. cheers!!

OK. my seemingly unlimited chowk time is now used up. I shall be back later. So, arjun, giani, subhashjoshi: take your time to think about what I have written in #456. I am sure you can do better than what you have done so far.

Dost Mittar: just count your blessings you are counted as a "kuldip nayyar" by your countrymen. According to Masadi, I am a peon of the west. And to this I can add the honors just bestowed by Indians infuriated by my presenting certain ground realities which I have asked them to think about above in the meantime. Perhaps you can help them along here. :-)

#569 Posted by tahmed32 on August 8, 2007 11:00:12 am


On Modi, as I told arjun, it doesnt matter which list he belongs to in the US.


You said he was on the terrorist list..a claim shown to be patently false as is obvious by your furious backtracking...

giani #564: writing gibberish on the internet requires "gonads"?

dost mittar #561 welcome to the mid-afternoon chowk chai party.

On Modi, as I told arjun, it doesnt matter which list he belongs to in the US. The important fact is that as an elected chief minister in India, he was denied permission to enter the US on account of his association with the gujerat murders of indian muslims. That is what Indians need to remind themselves every time they feel like jumping on a moral pedestal to preach to Pakistanis about nurturing criminals in their midst. In fact (to take borrow the moral pedestal for a second for Pakistan), unlike Indians, we dont elect criminals and persona non grata in other countries to high office. :-)

On your advice to arjun: that is good advice, and exactly the point I have tried to make in #456. I have yet to have any of your countrymen take up my challenge to focus on the realities I present there, with arjun studiously avoiding any reference to it!! So much for chowk as the cross-roads of ideas or discussion.

While satisfying their petty little minds by gloating about India and tarring Pakistanis as terorists, Indians like arjun ignore the fact they are doing exactly what Ben Laden and Musharraf (for different reasons) would love to see them do, and exactly what is in the worst interest of Indians themselves.

subhasjoshi #566: get a grip on yourself. I know reality is hard to face, but be brave. You can fix your problems, like I suggested you do before I am willing to waste my precious chowk time with you.

giani_240#564:

My post to arjun was in response to his constant taunting me to be a Kuldip Nayar clone (even though I paid full fare to taxi drivers in Pakistan :-))

AND HOW MANY MILLIONS DID YOU KILL?

SO HOW DID YOU BUTCHER HINDUS AND WHY, TAHMED UNCLE?

WHY IS THAT NOT A CRIME IN YOUR SHAMELESS EYES?

YOU WILL HAVE TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION, IF NOT TO ME, THEN AT LEAST TO YOURSELF.

DM Sahib,

please let me preface by saying that I have a lot of respect for you and I have also chastised Arjun severely in the past for his stance. However, in this instance with the series of interacts with Tahmed, I have to humbly disagree with you and goad Arjun on. At least he is showing some gonads.

cheers

giani

cheers

Further to # 562 Tahmedji

And of course you are unable to say where is the gaali/galoch in my post, right?

Guruji that's what you have been saying since time immemorial (sorry for cliche) to Arjun here, and yet you keep responding to him.

So, what happened to Hindus of Pakistan? Make a nice plausible story of it (deNile is very far from where you were born, hahaha.)

laddu:

Do you know if any Hindu request to build a temple was refused by Pakistani govt.? Here is a suggestion: Raise donations for building a Swami Narayan temple in Lahore or Karachi, get some local Hindus (yes, there are still some, at least in Karachi!) to submit a proposal to their govt. for building the temple there and if the request is rejected, you would have a solid case to present.

tahmed32:

You would be more accurate if you called Modi Persona Non Grata in the US, as he has not been called a terrorist by any American agency.

arjun:

I have no shame in admitting that I have close affinity with Punjabis across the border and I feel quite at home in their company. But my stance towards Pakistan is based on realpolitik and not on any sentimental grounds. In fact, I would have fully supported the Indian govt. if it had followed jihadis across the border in hot pursuit or bombed out their training camps in POK. But Indians did not have the gonads to do that. On the other hand, your posts merely create/deepen hatred for India/Indias/Hindus among Pakistanis and I don't see how this hatred is of any benefit to India/Indians/Hindus.

giani: what part of #456 (the post I have been challenging your countrymen to read and either acknowledge the realities presented there, or else tell me what is wrong) sounds like obfuscation to you?

#553: subhasjoshi you wrote And pray tell me which part of my post is a gaali/galoch?

either you are trying to be cleverer than you are, or you are incapable of distinguishing between a discussion and namecalling. either way, i am not wasting more of my precious chowk time with you until you have fixed your problem.

Re: # 549 Giani

Yaar Im just having some fun with this Paki Pontiff Tahmed.

But you are right, chowk is a waste of time, that's why I post only when I'm getting too bored and have some absolutely free time, which is not very often.

Anyways, goodnight.

clifton bridge #555 I just read his response. He ignored my sincere advice to stop picking on isolated phrases and learn to read entire sentences in suggestion #543. And so will keep harping about Paki terrorist cab drivers and Indian IT billionaires, incapable of having a coherent discussion, unwilling to face reality.

Re: # 554 Bridge on De Nile

Look who is talking of deNile, hahaha!

Anyways, goodnight Paki prevaricators! let the blood of hindu heathens not haunt you in your sweet dreams. We forgive you, for tonight.

heya Tahmed ! arjun will emerge wiser and smarter i am sure :)

arjun so in your fair and biased view of the world the indian govt has not deliberately killed innocent civilians ? do you also live in De Nile?

Re: # 547 Tahmed

And pray tell me which part of my post is a gaali/galoch?

Forget comparison with the choice epithets you are greeted with by assorted Mohajirs and Max'es. Just tell me, where is "gaali"? But you are shameless to the core.

Re: # 545 Tahmed the Obfuscator

So you don't have anything to say about the systematic liquidation of Hindu population in Pakistan. You can only rant endlessly "Modi Modi Modi Modi".

#543 Posted by tahmed32 on August 8, 2007 9:27:08 am


Remain arjun the nut, or become arjun the chowk statesman.


yes prophet tahmed..that's what indians live for...to be recognized as statesmen by a bunch of jihadi loving pakis...

#546 Posted by cliftonbridge on August 8, 2007 9:49:52 am


arjun your govt believes in killing innocent civilians too


I think you have the indian government confused with the paki army that killed a million bangladeshis...

and when civilians do get killed by the indian army when it's running an anti-paki-jihadi operation, tough nails...collateral damage that wouldn't have occurred if you hadn't sent in paki jihadis in the first place..

Subhash,

you are trying to engage Tahmed in a logical discourse. My advice is to stop wasting your time. His posts in response to Arjun should make it amply clear that getting him to think and discuss logically is a herculean task

cb: greetings. please dont detract arjun from the challenging assignment he is undertaking. I have no doubt that he will be much better equipped to understand what you are saying once he has completed his "Back to Reality" course as described in #543. :-)

subhash: as for your gaali-galooch, kindly try to refrain from that. I dont respond to gaalis.

arjun your govt believes in killing innocent civilians too and i have yet to hear you apologise about that.

subash: shhhhhh....dont try to get arjun off the hook from what I have written in #543. This is for his own good. I am giving individual attention to one genius here.

If you wish to take up my challenge to arjun separately, you are welcome - but focus on the challenge, rather than by tryhing to create a distraction.

Re: # 543 Tahmed chachoo

Guruji aap eik baat ka jawaab to deejiye : how many hindus were there in Pakistan at the time of partition and how many are there now? You start blurting Modi-Fodi etc etc at the drop of a hat. You don't feel ashamed at all, hainji? The treatment meted out to your minorities, it doesn't perturb your conscience, or you don't have one, hainji?
India mein to eik ya do ya dus Modi hain, aapke yahan to saali poori qaum hi ModiyoN kee hai. Besharm kahin ke, lahaul bila...

arjun #536 You seem to have difficulty comprehending anything more than isolated phrases. Here is what you should do:

Re-read all three lines of my post #534 very slowly, until the meaning of the entire sentence sinks in.

Next, once you have succesfully demonstrated your understanding of #534, you can go into advanced english comprehension, and read my post #533. This is more challenging since it consists of - sit down on a chair for this - four entire sentences!!

Third, having successfully demonstrated understanding of #533, you are ready for (drum roll) real time. For this, go to my post #456 (the one I have been reminding you about, and which you have been studiously ignoring) and study the ground realities I have presented there.

THEN come back and either accept my challenge to tell my how your hallucinations are stand up before the ground realities I have presented in #456, or else keep hallucinating about "paki terrorists" and "Indian IT billionaires". The choice is yours. Remain arjun the nut, or become arjun the chowk statesman.

#540 Posted by cliftonbridge on August 8, 2007 9:21:06 am


I actually dont support killing innocent civilians anywhere for any ideology.


I might be reluctantly willing to accept that YOU don't but your government sure does...and let's not kid ourselves..most of your fellow pakis were completely on board with the whole jihad thingy..and that includes paki-americans whose love of jihad only went into the closet when the TSA probes started going deeper at airports..

Re: # 538 arjun

Not asking cabfare is their style for doing "munh mein ram-ram aur bagal mein chhuri". Only a maudlin K Nayar clone falls for such nautanki.

I actually dont support killing innocent civilians anywhere for any ideology.

"cliftonbi, its the bunnies that make rattlesnake hunting impossible..muddy up the waters"....i agree, if only there were a pure rattlesnake race in the world :(

#537 Posted by cliftonbridge on August 8, 2007 9:15:02 am


forget laddu: most of us prefer that you not support islamic terrorism rather than having your wear a bindi or whatever...

same thing goes for prophet tahmed who tells us kuldip nayyar wannabes weren't charged cab fare by the paki cab drivers..how about you charge double fare and not support islamic terrorism, huh?

"As I said earlier, I would certainly like to know Pakistanis who are willing to wear a bindi, choori and wear sindur. And ofcourse throw away that horrible attire called burqa". I dont routinely wear either one of those outfits and are both somewhat alien to me, but i certainly wouldnt die at the thought of wearing either one.

"Ofcourse say - Namaste without worrying about what their maulavi saheb says about it".
again namaste is not a natural greeting fear of maulvi sahabs is very low on my list of emotions.


"I would love to interact with Pakistanis who do not squirm in their seats when I openly declare my veneration for my deity and when I perform puja on its idols."
I am not squirming, religion can be a great thing ,i hope your faith makes you a better person.

"I would love to see the day when a new 100 acre Swami Narayan Temple is constucted on the muslim lands."
i would like to see that too, but realistically like i said the population of hindus went down by 1000% so even the existing temples were underutilized.

prophet tahmed: Show me which terrorist list modi is on...I'll show you which terrorist list the paki terrorist groups are one..the groups armed, funded and trained by your government...

should be easy to do, right? objective criteria..post the link to the list...

shishapa: see #534 for my response on Modi. Perhaps, instead of joining arjun in beating around the bush while avoiding realities, you would care to focus on some of the subcontinent realities that I listed in #456. Perhaps that way we can actually have a discussion on chowk that is something more than a bunch of comedians acting out their fantasies of being the Grand Inquisitor (arjun).

PS: to #533 and as for your beating around the bush, not that it is important - by trying to split hairs in #527 and again in #530 on exactly which list Modi is on, you dont hide the reality that Modi was refused a US visa on account of his terrorist activities in gujerat.

arjun #530, #527 #526

Three posts that beat around the bush, while studiously avoiding what would be the starting point for any consideration for anyone who wishes his views to be treated as anything more than a joke: namely, the ground realities I challenged you to focus on and find fault on if you can. The invitation to accept my challenge remains open. Otherwise, you are doing nothing more than what Musharraf and Ben Laden, LeT etc., (for different reasons, of course), would love for you to do: paint Pakistanis as being supportive of islamist terrorism.

To keep repeating the obvious, with spiteful, stupid men like you trying to portray yourselves as representing India and/or the US (which you understand little more than the stupid little US slang words you have tried to pick up), neither India, nor the US, needs any enemies.

laddu

Why do you want pakis doing all those hinud stuff... let them just be pakis...

lookie what we have here...reality shows it' hateful anti-pakiland colors again...

Maryland Man Sentenced for Involvement with Al Qaeda

The United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York, Michael J. Garcia, announced Wednesday in a press release that Mahmud Faruq Brent was sentenced this morning to 15 years in prison. The 15 year sentence was the maximum sentence under the charges Brent was facing. Brent was charged with conspiring to provide material support to a foreign terrorist organization. This organization, Lashkar-e-Taiba (translated "Army of the Pure"), is committed to violence against the United States and its allies.

The judge in this case, Judge Loretta A. Preska, stated that terrorist fighters like Brent make it possible for these terrorist organizations to put their terror into practice. Brent also traveled to Pakistan to train with the Lashkar-e-Taiba. The judge also stated that after completing his military training in Pakistan, Brent returned to the United States awaiting an opportunity to put what he had learned into practice.

The investigation leading up to this sentence revealed that Brent, along with other accomplices, traveled to Pakistan to receive training, and then returned to the United States. Brent was living in Baltimore, Maryland upon his return. Brent has, during this time, received martial arts training from Tarik Shah. Shah was a co-defendant who pleaded guilty to conspiring to provide material support to al Qaeda. Upon further investigation, Shah's address book led authorities to Brent. The FBI had been monitoring Shah's communication and had recorded telephone conversations of him mentioning that Brent could be trusted. Shah also planned to invite Brent to participate in martial arts training videos for the training of jihadists.

Shah was subsequently arrested and used as bait to find out more about Brent. Shah agreed to meet with Brent and allow the FBI to monitor his communications. During this meeting, Brent further implicated himself in the terrorist scheme. Brent encouraged Shah to attend the training camps, but stated that it was difficult to trust people. He said, "We don't know who is who." Brent also said, "We were not in a position to make new friends." Brent also revealed that he had agreed to provide whatever "assistance" he could to the terrorist organization, and he hoped that Allah would bless him for his efforts.

Brent was later arrested. A search of his residence revealed jihad training videos, recording by radical clerics, and a computer which showed Brent had visited the Lashkar-e-Taiba website. The webpage encouraged those wishing to fight the enemies of Allah to attend the training camps.

The FBI, the New York City Police Department, and the New York Joint Terrorism Task Force all took part in this investigation.

#522 Posted by tahmed32 on August 8, 2007 5:10:59 am



harish_hyd #519 No doubt the US terrorist list LeT. It also includes Modi, elected Chief Minister of Gujerat. Does this mean that the US is going to be concerned with LeT or Modi in the same manner as it is wrt al Qaeda?


"moderate/liberal" tahmed tries to pull a fast one...

1. modi isn't on the SD terrorist list
2. why, yes...the US does consider the LeT to be in cahoots with the AQ...prophet tahmed knows about this...the virginia jihad network was prosecuted next door, in virginia..
3. The london bombers trained in camps run by the "indigenou freedom fighting groups" that prophet tahmed supports...

Re: # 509

clifton sahiba ji,

Adaab,

As I said earlier, I would certainly like to know Pakistanis who are willing to wear a bindi, choori and wear sindur. And ofcourse throw away that horrible attire called burqa. And ofcourse say - Namaste without worrying about what their maulavi saheb says about it.
I would love to interact with Pakistanis who do not squirm in their seats when I openly declare my veneration for my deity and when I perform puja on its idols.
I would love to see the day when a new 100 acre Swami Narayan Temple is constucted on the muslim lands.

#511 Posted by cliftonbridge on August 7, 2007 9:44:55 pm

I see..so if you kids are playing around a snake, you'll think happy happy thoughts and the snake will morph into a harmless lovable fuzzball bunny?

good idea..let them do that..

darwin will do his thing and make sure the gene pool of humanity has fewer idiots propagating themselves..

Modi is not on the terrorist list...prophet tahmed is pulling stuff out of hiss paki rear..and all just to cover for the fact that he condones terrorism but can't come out and say it...

there's two kinds of pakis..the kind that openly says they support terrorism and the other kind: liars..

#517 Posted by tahmed32 on August 8, 2007 4:40:53 am


Another ground reality I did not mention is - the US (and the rest of the world) sees the fighting in Kashmir in a totally different light than it sees 9/11


Nice try, but no cookie...

Why are the LeT etc on the terrorist list?

And about the way the US sees things, ever heard of the virginia jihad network? yes...that's virginia, next door to gaithesburg...Planning to feign ignorance? no problem...I'll help you out..

google earch for virginia jihad network kashmir

So what has Mr. Modi done that Mr. Jinnah has not done?
Why is Modi on the terrorist list now and Jinnah was not
on the terrorist list then?

yar borivli, didnt you read the noose or you got stuck on platform 2 at kandivli...sanjay dutt was convicted. he is at least half-hindu, after all his name is that of a famous mahabharat charoteer and reciter.

cliftonbi, its the bunnies that make rattlesnake hunting impossible..muddy up the waters, provide deniability for the states jihadi actions. tahmed is a great example. hopefefully borivli local will remove the cobwebs from tahmeds toungue ;-)

here is one link I found on guj riot conviction:

http://in.news.yahoo.com/060224/139/62ogz.html

harish_hyd #519 No doubt the US terrorist list LeT. It also includes Modi, elected Chief Minister of Gujerat. Does this mean that the US is going to be concerned with LeT or Modi in the same manner as it is wrt al Qaeda? Of course not. You imply the same ansswer when you note that "it (US) takes a serious view, going to the extent of banning these groups because some day the same groups can go after them too. " Thus, for policy makers in the US (as in any other country) the prime concern is domestic security.

Since Arjun is determined to ignore what I the ground realities I presented in #456 (and thus doomed to spend his time shadow boxing his hallucinations), perhaps you would care to look at what I am trying to get across to you. They say that the best way to get rid of an enemy is to make it a friend. In Pakistan, India has a historic opportunity today to do exactly this, per what I wrote in bold at the end. While I dont know if the Indian government realizes the chance it is missing in building goodwill among Pakistanis by suppoorting the democracy movement, but as ordinary Indian citizens you can certainly do better than trying to do exactly what Musharraf would love the world to do - paint Pakistanis as terrorists, with Musharraf being the Horatio at the bridge holding them back.

borivili dude

Look - you muslims are killing and brutalizing each other like never before... iraq, iran, afganistan, pakiland... you don't treat each other with respect... arabs treat pakis like sh!t... pakis treat each other the same way - shias are killed regularly, ahmedis are brutalized... mohajirs are killed in thousands - they in turn have killed others in kind...

You got to first treat each other nicely and also treat your minorities better... then come crying to us and we will see what we can do...

brivili

Dude - hinuds killed about 4000 muslims in the riots... now, pakis killed a million muslims in bdesh, a few thousand in baloch, they keep killing even today... thousand of muslims were killed in afganistan by muslims themselves, saddam killed thousands of muslims in iraq...

I don't hear "fight till the judgement day" for any of these killings... but hinuds killed a few hundred and you are all fire and brimstone - ready to fight "till the last muslim child"... :)

+++

I thought they convicted a few guj rioter last year... didn't they?

#517 by tahmed32

Another ground reality I did not mention is - the US (and the rest of the world) sees the fighting in Kashmir in a totally different light than it sees 9/11.

Really? I thought the US proscribed the LeT, JeM, and the HuM, terrorist groups that are currently fighting Indian security forces in Kashmir. Wonder why it would do so if it viewed the fighting there as different from 9/11.

In fact, over the years, the US has come around to the long-held Indian view that you cannot treat terrorism in isolation. So if earlier the US ignored Pak-sponsored terrorism in Kashmir on the grounds that it didn't harm them, today it takes a serious view, going to the extent of banning these groups because some day the same groups can go after them too. Nowhere is this example more clear than in Pakistan itself. The Mujahideen fighting Afghan rule today are fighting the Pak armed forces, the very army that midwifed them. The LeT and JeM, also the ISI's brainchild today launch suicide attacks on the President and PM. Who would have thought?

test

arjun: So, you ignore the rest of my post, take a phrase out of context to make it appear that I am "dancing" around Musharraf's role when in fact anyone who is not a complete dud can see I am being perfectly factual in what I say.

You also ignore my earlier post #456 that I challenged you to read and then tell me how your "questions" have any relevance to the fundamental ground realities concerning India-Pakistan relations I provide there. That is, even if ISI kept me informed of its activities (as per your hallucinations that you wish to share with "kuldip nayyar clones"), and even if the answer to your question was a simple "yes" - so what the bloody hell could you do about it, you idiot? One of the ground realities I told you about was that India can no longer dare to attack Pakistan. Another ground reality I did not mention is - the US (and the rest of the world) sees the fighting in Kashmir in a totally different light than it sees 9/11. Two decades of Indian government attempts to paint the two as the same have failed. And if the Pakistan public is up in arms against Musharraf, it is not out of fear of India or the US - it is in the context of internal politics.

These are facts on the ground that policy makers work with. These are facts that are spiteful, stupid Indians like you on chowk look away from even when they are presented to you. And that is why individuals like you are the worst enemies of the group you claim to represent - Indians.

Ranjit what you are saying is that given the circumstances and the dynamics what haapened in kashmir/gujrat/Bombay/Ayodhia is normal. But how come Indians dont accept the same arguments for muslim countries? that is given their circumstances and dynamics what is happening is understandable?

Re:borivili_express

Dude, please have a sense of perspective. India has 150 million muslims living there. 150 million!! That is the same as the entire population of Pakistan, give or take a few. No other country can even imagine having such a large muslim minority, let alone keep it happy. Countries like UK and France cannot even manage the handful of muslims living there, with riots, jihadi attacks etc happening with alarming frequency.

As compared to that, just look at how things are in India. Yes there are riots once in a while which no one is proud of. Typically they are politically motivated and it takes a really long time to convict the perpetrators - we just convicted the 1984 anti-sikh rioters. Yet the fact is that 150 million muslims are living a fairly content and satisfied lives, while being fully integrated in Indian society. We do not see a single case of any muslim exodus to a neighboring country. We see Bangladeshis sneaking into India all the time to escape poverty. We have never seen any Indian muslim sneaking into Pakistan (except Dawood Ibrahim :-)) via any route. They could go to Kashmir LOC or any other border or go via Dubai or overstay visas. However, it just does not happen except for stray cases. People vote with their feet and the fact that indian muslims have no interest in Pakistan is a very telling sign.

Secondly indian muslim involvement in jihadi activities is negligible. Except for the SIMI and some stray incidents, in general indian muslims seem to have zero interest in such activities, to the eternal frustration of right wing pakistanis like zeemax or urstruly. Compare that to UK or France where the miniscule muslim population is hell bent on violence. That means that social, cultural and economic conditions in India DO NOT alienate muslims in large numbers. They do not feel like outsiders, plain and simple. They are at home!! They feel wanted, are accepted by society and do not feel alien. They have a strong political voice and they have democratic means to redress their grievances. They may be economically backward but to its credit the Indian muslim community is very highly focused on education these days and the income disparity with non-muslims is shrinking.

Basically it is easy to point out problems in India but sometimes we ought to step back and look at the big picture. I challenge you to show me any country in the world where a religious minority of such a size is living peacefully. Pakistan has a hard time keeping things under control in spite of being 97% muslim. People in Pakistan are creating minorities from thin air by designating one group of muslims as non-muslims!! More mosques and imambaraghs are bombed and attacked in Pakistan than in India. In India, there was only one Babri Masjid and that was a freak incident. The BJP paid a heavy price for Gujarat to the point that it is now permanently in the political wilderness at the center.

Re:cliftonbridge

I think it is certainly positive to see that Pakistani society is changing its attitude towards hindus. The recent opening of Katas Raj temple and the one in the Lahore fort, the overall behavior with visiting Indians are a sign that Pakistanis no longer have a knee jerk reaction about anything related to hinduism. They had already reversed their attitudes towards sikhism a while back and now seem to be extending that same reversal to hinduism as well. Although more can be done, it is nevertheless a welcome first step.

It would be interesting to analyze why this change is happening. My theory is that Pakistani society is increasingly fearful of runaway extremism. What started out as a seemingly natural generic hatred of hindus/sikhs in the post-partition times, degenerated into hatred of qadianis, shias and ultimately anyone not on board with jihad and taliban style islam. Basically Pakistanis have stared into the abyss, especially in light of how afghanistan has been literally destroyed by similar forces, and are realizing that the pendulum has swung too far in one direction. It is good to see at least some efforts to push back the pendulum in the other direction of tolerance.

Jang are you denying that there has not been a single conviction in the Gujarat and Bombay riots with ovr 4000 muslims butchered in broad daylight with even a report, i think callled the Srikrishna report ? and mind you it has been 15 years since the bombay riots and 5 years since gujrat.

are you also one of the nazi holocaust deniers?

#511

Finally a fitting answer.

rattlesnakes of all creeds and colours should only play with each other and leave the 90% non venomous bunnies alone...i.e you and other rabid types from all over should just enjoy your snake dance with each other.

=== Interact Filtered ===
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this is heartbreaking ...in arjuns mind pakistani's are so unfair and unbalanced ...you know an angel dies everytime a completely unbiased pakistani hater like arjun says he doesnt belive in paki liberals :( are there any angels left in heaven i wonder?

laddu jee i am clifton sahiba and i am glad you know enough indian muslims to give you a sensible view on them. Maybe one day you will know enough paki's too.

#506 Posted by tahmed32 on August 7, 2007 8:48:59 pm


And assuming for the sake of argument that the Pakistan government did that in the past (which is quite likely) and still does so (less likely)


HAHA..

kuldip nayyar clones: see how paki "liberals" dance around their government's role in the support of islamic terrorism...

told you so...only pakis that don't support or condone terrorism are pushing daisies...

correction to #506: That should be my post #456, not #435, that you should check.

While you are at it, and read what I wrote in bold at the end of that post to understand why the "fasaadee tatoos" on both the Indian and Pakistan side are the worst enemies of the people they claim to represent.

#498 arjun: I see you didnt get the joke about your playing your Grand Inquisitor role at Guantanamo where both guards and inmates could have a good laugh, and repeated your dumb questions.

Here is the response, genius: What makes you think I know the answers any better than you or any other individual other than Musharraf and his key staff? Should I expect you to be aware of RAW's activities in Pakistan?

And assuming for the sake of argument that the Pakistan government did that in the past (which is quite likely) and still does so (less likely). So what? Are you so stupid as to think that I call for peace with India in order to impress a bunch of strangers on chowk that I am a peace-loving man, you idiot? Read my post #435, and tell me if there is one thing that I wrote that is contradicted by the dumb questions you have been posing from your high and mighty perch as Grand Inquisitor?

Like I said, fasaadee tatoos (muslim as well as hindus) like you are the worst enemies of the very people they claim to represent!!

jang: er...um..the bamiyan buddha is in afghanistan. How can you make such dumb mistakes and claim to be a "perfidious hindu" at the same time? If old man Chanyaka were still around, he would have you go to the corner and become a murgha!!

#500 borivli fast local (there is no such a thing as an authentic borivli express)

yeh..you tell tahmed. its his duty to carry out jihad and not using perfidious hindu technique a la krishna, but honest paki method..dont hide, be open and conduct it. paki public is (aparently) fully behind you (to get justice for kashmiri brothers who are under hindu occupation) so why worry? all you got is some hindu liberals, get them some free cabs and maybe we can install bamiyan buddha back again.

Re: # 476

clinton saheb,

Indian muslims I know of have mostly got over the incredible phobia of idolators and idolatory that is pontified and drilled into common muslim's psyche by mullahs.
That is only because they have develped a sensibility that makes them appreciate living in a multi cultural and religious society.

Indian muslims are certainly impure by Arabic standards- ask any mullah from Arab or go and see how they are treated by their fellow pure Arabic Sheikhs.

Quranic standards are defacto reflection of Arabic culture- the language, the thought process and even the logic- a tamil speaking muslim who appreciates hindu scriptures, music and does not know Arabic like Kalam are impure (najis) mushriquoons and munafiqoons.

You can ask Zeemax and Urstruly.

#501 Posted by laddu on August 7, 2007 6:28:41 pm

forget temple...it' not even safe to build a mosque these days in the land of the pure...never know when it'll get the white phosphorus shake and bake treatment...

Re: # 474

Actually I would love to do that. But here I am not looking to 'restoration' of already desecrated temples which are not the right place to establish idols.

I am trying to look at the possibility of establishing a real Swaminarayan Temple on a 20 or even 1000 acre land.

As far as I recall new temples post partition in Pakikstan are almost non-existent- this is a logical consequence of the mullah Islam according to whoch in an Islamic state dhimmis CANNOT establish new temples to propagate their kufr.

If we can allow a huge Swami Narayan Temple on a 100 acre land , then that would go a long way in building bridges between idolator hindus and moderator muslims in Pakistan.

muslims take note
1)In hinduism lying and cheating are justified even by their gods for example Krishna in Mahabharata

2) Muslims life and property is less secure than that of any non muslim undera muslim as zero convictions after 15 years of Bombay and Ayodhya as well as Gujarat riots show

3) Most of the funding for these riots and the Bjp/VHP come from North America and UK so beware many of the hindu posters of hate here must be reported and monitored

4) As you can see from the postings of the hindus on this site the amazing hatred they carry in their hearts and that they are taught from childhoods, no lie or justification i too fantastic for them.

5) They would love muslims and pakistanis to condone their brutality in Kashmir and the rest of India but it is the religous duty of a mslim to resist an injustice on his fellow muslim until his last breath, hence this battle will continue till we have secured justice.

kuldip nayyar clones take note: even supposed paki liberals like tahmed refuse to disavow their government's use of islamic terrorists who kill non-pakis...

HAHA....prophet tahmed beats around the bush and avoid answering the question...

let me repeat...

Do you deny this: The paki government arms, trains and funds terrorists who infiltrate into India and kill Indians?

Do you deny this: The paki government uses the islamic jihadis as a strategic tool?

arjun: Perhaps you should apply for a job at Gauntanamo Bay as Grand Inquisitor.

This way you could provide the much needed comic relief to both the guards and those locked up there. You could then do your monkey act ("Paki Paki Paki") inbetween your playing the Grand Inquisitor.

arjun: you write Do you deny this...Do you deny this..How about this

And do you deny that you are a fool?

arjun: #493 hmmmm....instead of three dots you posted an article.

That still spares you from having to write an intelligent sentence, and thus creates the impression that you are a wise man. Not bad, but consider my advice in #491 and instead of cutting an pasting entire articles (which anyone who can access chowk can also access if interested), just type ... (i.e. dotdotdot).

#491 Posted by tahmed32 on August 7, 2007 4:51:43 pm

Do you deny this: The paki government arms, trains and funds terrorists who infiltrate into India and kill Indians?

Do you deny this: The paki government uses the islamic jihadis as a strategic tool?


How about this: You pakis charge kuldip nayyar clones like dost mittar full cab fare when they visit the land of the pure and you stop the jihadi support thing..

VIEW: Reality-check —Farrukh Saleem

The UN’s Human Development Index “looks beyond GDP to a broader definition of well-being� and measures the “impact of economic policies on quality of life�. In 2006, Pakistan ranked 134th out of 177 countries surveyed (meaning: economic policies are not having any impact on quality of life)

Here are some facts and figures from various standards — surveys and indices — which need to be placed alongside official claims to economic progress and the overall well-being of this country. They make an interesting read

Pakistan Economic Survey 2006-07: “Pakistan’s growth performance over the last five years has been striking. [The] Average real GDP growth during 2003-07 was the best performance since many decades, and it now seems that Pakistan has decisively broken out of the low growth rut that it was in for more than one decade.�

Let us now consider some other standards.

UN’s Human Development Index: This Index “looks beyond GDP to a broader definition of well-being�. It measures the “impact of economic policies on quality of life�. In 2006, Pakistan ranked 134th out of 177 countries surveyed (meaning: economic policies are not having any impact on quality of life).

Failed States Index: The Fund for Peace — an independent, non-profit, Washington, DC-based research and educational institution — first published the Index in 2005. In 2005, seventy-five countries were surveyed and Pakistan ranked 34th (meaning that there were 33 other countries that were ‘more failing’ than us). In 2007, one hundred and seventy-seven countries were surveyed and Pakistan ranked 12th, a sharp deterioration from 2005 (meaning that there were only 11 other countries that were ‘worse off’ than us). This Index compares measures such as ‘Criminalisation of the State’, Deligitmisation of the State’, ‘Uneven economic development’, ‘Suspension of rule of law’, and ‘Security apparatus operates as a state within a state’. The ‘most failing’ states include Sudan, Iraq, Somalia, Zimbabwe, Chad, Congo, Afghanistan, Haiti and Pakistan.

Press Freedom Index: Reporters sans frontières Ior Reporters Without Borders maintains this Index which surveys the world for ‘direct attacks on journalists’, ‘direct attacks on the media’ and other ‘indirect sources of pressure against the free press’. For the past five years Finland with a score of 0.50 has been holding the first place. In 2002, Pakistan’s score stood at 44 (a higher score indicates more restraints on freedom of the press). In 2003, Pakistan’s score improved to 39. It’s been a steep downhill since then: 61 in 2004, 60 in 2005 and 70 in 2006. In 2002, Pakistan ranked 119th falling to 129th in 2003, 150th in 2005 and 157th in 2006. Looks like the 2007 Report will group with the worst offenders alongside North Korea, Turkmenistan, Cuba, Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Global Peace Index: This Index is maintained by the Economist and “measure[s] the relative position of nations’ and regions’ peacefulness�. In 2007, a total of 121 countries were surveyed and Pakistan ranked 115th meaning that we are among the seven ‘least peaceful’ countries in the world (there are 114 countries that are ‘more peaceful’ than us). The group of ‘least peaceful’ countries includes Pakistan, Colombia, Nigeria, Russia, Israel, Sudan and Iraq.

Global Competitiveness Index: This Index is published by the World Economic Forum and “assesses the ability of countries to provide high levels of prosperity to their citizens. This in turn depends on how productively a country uses available resources�. In 2006-7, Switzerland, Finland and Sweden are the world’s most competitive economies while Pakistan ranked 91st out of 125 countries surveyed. India, at 43rd, is a lot more competitive than us and Bangladesh, at 99th, is less competitive.

Ease of Doing Business Index: This Index is maintained by the World Bank and includes factors such as starting a business, dealing with licenses, hiring and firing workers, registering property and trading across borders. Here we are 74th out of 175 while India, at 134th, is a much more difficult country to do business with.

Gender Empowerment Index: This Index is a “measure of inequalities between men’s and women’s opportunities in a country� and includes factors such as ratio of female to male earned income, female professional and technical workers and seats in parliament held by women. In 2006, Pakistan ranked 134th out of 177 countries surveyed. India was 126th and Bangladesh 137th.

Happy Planet Index: This Index also goes beyond GDP into ‘life satisfaction’, ‘life expectancy’ and ‘ecological efficiency’. In 2006, Pakistan ranked 112th out of 178 countries surveyed.

Dr Farrukh Saleem is an Islamabad-based economist and analyst

shishapa #484 Did they teach you this logic in India?

arjun #487. They say that if a fool should keep silent, because people will think he is a wise man. You have done the next best thing, I see, by quoting one phrase from someone's post and with one phrase. Thus, you seem ALMOST like a wise man.

Suggestion for your next post, write something like this, and you will appear even smarter (and the three dots might remind people of hamidm and they will think you are humerous as well as wise):

...

#485 aslambhai, i am objecting to bogus shyte like putting idols in a deserted temple..not the jihad by itself. its like doing munh mein ram ram ..a hindu bania trait. do the jihad, and declare loudly that we support it as a god-ordained duty. that i can respek.

sure occupation, why is hindu occupation of muslims so wrong? cant hindus be "secular"?

Uh-oh...more heartburn for the kuldip nayyar clones..

Wipro to acquire US services provider Infocrossing
Indian outsourcer to pay $600 million to provide better hosted and managed IT infrastructure services

Indian outsourcer Wipro plans to acquire U.S. IT services provider Infocrossing for about $600 million, to fill gaps in its portfolio in hosted and managed IT infrastructure services and network operations centers.

Wipro of Bangalore announced Monday that the companies have signed an agreement for Wipro to acquire Infocrossing for $18.70 per share in an all-cash deal.

Infocrossing of New Jersey has 32 million outstanding shares, Wipro Chief Financial Officer Suresh Senapaty told reporters in Bangalore on Monday. Wipro will acquire all of the outstanding shares of Infocrossing followed by the merger of the company with a Wipro subsidiary in the U.S., he added. The tender offer for the shares is expected to close by the fourth quarter of this year, Wipro said.

Besides five data centers in the U.S., and expertise in mainframes, Infocrossing will bring to Wipro its IT services and BPO (business process outsourcing) in health care, Senapaty said. Wipro plans to sell services delivered from India in infrastructure management, BPO and other areas to Infocrossing's clients, which number about 190, Senapaty said.

Wipro has already made eight IT acquisitions in the last 24 months, primarily to gain access to new markets in Europe and the U.S. But the company typically paid about $50 million for each of those acquisitions.

A pure offshore vendor will no longer do, and Indian outsourcers need a global footprint, said Siddharth Pai, a partner at outsourcing consultancy firm Technology Partners International Inc. (TPI) in Houston. Wipro has made the right move to acquire Infocrossing, he added.

Indian outsourcers have been setting up operations closer to their customers in the U.S. and Europe, as some customers are increasingly demanding that offshore outsourcers also have a local presence.

#458 Posted by PM on August 7, 2007 6:30:22 am


is no secret.


It is to tahmed

jangs firstly it is a sign of tolerance admist many signs of intolerance. Why has the sign of tolerance become the problem (the "insult") ?
re. the second part its a very dicy question, the legitimacy changes when you change the word "rule" to "occupation".

Re: # 483
according to indian propaganda film every thing is ok in kashmir.

The logic is,

If you are visiting, we will be nice to you, so you can
say all the good things about us.
If you are living under our rule, under our thumbs,
you will be at our mercy and will be tolerated if
you you behave and do not complain.
But if you are living amongst us, in any way ahead of
us or stand out, we will either kick you out, convert you,
or will kick you out so your progeny can visit us and
sing our praises.

That is the logic Pakistani and Kashmiri muslims have
been following.

cliff, what is bad is that putting idol in an out of use temple (200 mile radius ethnically clensed of any potential users) is touted as a sign of tolerance while aiding and abetting an active jihad against "hindu" rule.

#457 PM, what's your point, can't you make the simple connection: "that modern Christian missionaries mimic the mentality of the colonial missionaries, though the feign politeness unlike those colonial bas*****"

Now there is a way to propagate, you all should learn from the Quran, "...reason with them in ways that are best and most gracious". Of course there are believers in Christianity who use such methods I don't deny that but the "Bible thumpers" going all over the place "selling" their religion in merchandise manner use the most uncouth methods available...

re. Kaal:
"People like Voltaire (and there were/are many many like him) did and do write similar stuff about Christianity. Was/is that without cause, or out of mere ignorance? :)

Not making a distinction between Christianity and Christendom, or indeed the Christianity of Christ (or even Paul) and that of the regal popes, qualifies as mere ignorance. :-)

Admittedly, the distinction is not nearly as clear as night and day, what with Jesus suppposedly handing keys to Peter and all that jazz... In Islam, it's a little easier, though not easy by any means, to distinguish between the religion and its followers' actions.

Re: # 474

correction 1000%

why is it insulting jangs? the idea that there is a hindu/idol place which is being actively supported by the pakistani govt even as a token gesture is that in itself bad? I agree that the tolerance shouldnt stop at katas raj but thats different.

yar i find the shyte about katas raj really insulting. that is a tourist shyte...noone goes there, there are no hindus around like for hundreds of miles.

then there is also the jernail who oversees the nankana sahib..

re: PM # 472

"you would've written the last two..."

People like Voltaire (and there were/are many many like him) did and do write similar stuff about Christianity. Was/is that without cause, or out of mere ignorance? :)

"this is because they are Indian muslims, who are certainly not pure by any arabic standards" ...arabs are in no position to judge who is a true muslim or not, only God can do that.

laddu the hindu population of pakistan went down by maybe 100% after partition .....how could there be more temples in pakistan now than before? More news from non indians, muslims who do not hate idolators :

Idols from India for restored Hindu temples in Pakistan
Karachi News.Net
Saturday 20th January, 2007 (IANS)

A three-member team of archaeological experts left here Saturday for India to search for idols of Hindu deities to be installed in restored temples in Pakistan.

The team from the Punjab Archaeology Department will visit the Taj Mahal and Fatehpur Sikri in Agra, Ajmer Sharif and Pushkar in Rajasthan, Varanasi in Uttar Pradesh and Aurangabad and the Ajanta Caves in Maharashtra over the next 11 days.

The team is headed by Oriya Maqbool Jan, the department's director general, who told The Daily Times that the main purpose of the tour would be to gather information about the deities, their rituals and decoration of the temples.

He said pictures and idols of the gods would be bought from India and designers hired to prepare replicas.

The move follows the near-completion of the restoration work, carried out at India's request, of the historic Katas Raj temples in Punjab province. The Archaeological Survey of India had sent an expert there in 2005.

The Katas site houses the Satgraha, a group of seven ancient temples, remains of a Buddhist stupa, a few medieval temples, havelis (old houses) and some recently constructed temples, scattered around a pond considered holy by Hindus.

Pakistan has decided to place idols of Hindu gods in the seven temples and restore them to their original state to attract visitors, Jan said. The project for the conservation of the Katas temples and stupas would be completed next month.

The budget allocated for the project is Rs.51.06 million.

Most of the temples, located some 40 km from the modern city of Chakwal in Pakistan's Punjab, were built during the reign of Hindu kings. The earliest of the Katas Raj temples dates back to the latter half of the 6th century AD.

The temples at Katas are mostly constructed on square platforms. The elevation of the sub shrines seems to form a series of cornices with small rows of pillars, crowned by a ribbed dome.

The Ramachandra temple is situated to the east of the Hari Singh Haveli and is closed from all sides except for an entrance on the east. The double-storied structure has eight rooms of various dimensions on the ground floor and a staircase at the south leading to the first floor. The temple has two jharokas (balconies) that have been severely damaged.

The Hanuman temple is on the western extreme of a high rectangular enclosure with entrances on the south and the north. The temple's ceiling is undecorated, and lime-plastered. The Shiva temple is also built on a square platform. Its entrance is a recessed round arch with faint cusps and a rectangular opening to the north.

Katas Raj temple complex is believed to date back to the Mahabharata era. There are stories about the Pandavas spending time there during their long exile. The lake in the complex is believed to have magical powers and supposed to be where Yudhishtir defeated the Yaksha with his wisdom to bring his brothers back to life.

India is making similar contribution to the restoration of the Angkor Vat temple complex in Cambodia. Revered in India, the temple was visited earlier by India's former deputy prime minister L.K. Advani.

laddu #459 you write If you believe that most of the Pakistanis are ok with idolators like me then I would love to see some idols and temples constructed in Pakistan.

That would be excellent, and I have no doubt that you will find the trip to Pakistan will reward your effort with a new appreciation of Pakistanis as a friendly, hospitable people. Mantolives, who spars frequently with Indians on chowk on political issues, has in fact played a welcoming host to at least two visiting Indian chowkies in Lahore (Stuka and Dost Mittar), and I have no doubt will be glad to show you around the city he is quite rightly proud of. While hindu temples were neglected no doubt over the past 60 years (and after babri masjid, a few misguided fanatics unfortunately attacked some long-abandoned temples in Pakistan), I understand some of them are being restored as more and more hindu visitors come to Pakistan. Perhaps you could even contribute to their upkeep when visiting them - and this way everyone is happy. You get to see hindu temples restored and visited once again, Pakistan has even more to offer tourists visiting Pakistan than before.

And peace in the sub-continent means the true benefits of globalization pour in over time to the entire region - today, I understand India generates only a few million dollars per year in tourist revenues, and which is less than even a single city in europe (like Stuttgart, home to the mercedes benz and porsche) does. So - there is plenty of room for both India and Pakistan to do well in today's world, regardless of the smug fantasy-land people like chaltahi (see my post to him below) live in. But first, we must learn to use our own eyes and minds to understand the ground realities that hindu and muslim ideologues ignore in pronounding their judgements. And basic reality is - Pakistanis are not the bloodthirsty enemies of "idol-worshippers", and indeed are friendly and hospitable to visitors; and peace in the sub-continent is of sigificant national interest to both India and Pakistan.

#463 chaltahai: I dont live in the same world you live in, that is for sure. What I am describing in point 2 of my post #456 to which you object is the real world. These may be minor considerations in the fantasy South Asia you have created, but these are significant factors that no policy maker in delhi burdened with the realities of the subcontinent could afford to ignore.

ajeya: #469
I'm pretty sure that, had you been living in the 18th century, you would've written the last two paragraphs of your post almost verbatim... except changing "Islam" for "Christianity". Heck you might do it living in Britain through the 70s-- replacing it with "Catholicism".

#466 Posted by cliftonbridge

[Laddu the world is full of muslims who are really good friends with idol worshippers like yourself, how can you possibly not know that? ]

But they also make donations into the jihad-boxes at their mosques and community centers.

#455 Posted by PM

["My fore fathers were murdered just because they did not believe in the muslim point of view about a so called 'formless" god.

Ludds, Unless you're Sindhi, you can't even begin to make a case based on historical facts. ]


Really? And what history books have YOU been studying?

Here's a suggestion for you. I'll debate this with you with facts. If you prove me wrong, I'll stop posting of Chowk. And if you are wrong, you do the same.

Deal?

#458 Posted by PM

[So breathe a little easy, my friend... the average Muslim is not out to dimmhiize you these days. ]

Not that they could dhimmi-ize me. Hindus are scared of Islamists not like one would be scared of a lion or a tiger, but more like how you would be scared of a scorpion hiding in your closet - that could bite you when you are least expecting it.

Islam and science will never coexist happily. Therefore Muslims will continue to get weaker economically and otherwise. However, the insidious ideology might persist. Muhammad still lies coiled up in the brains of the mullas and the Islamists. It is a constantly-present threat to humanity. The human race finally is attuned to this fact, and therefore this ideology will be countered wherever it raises it's ugly head. But the problem is that, like all evil, it has to be kept under control - eternal vigilance is the price we pay for freedom.

I hope Islam would be dealt a death-blow, but that may not happen. Good and evil are with us to stay. So Islam, Naziism, Fascism etc., along with goodness and humanity, might never disappear completely.

Re: # 466

Well I have some good muslim friends who do not mind my going to temples and keep idols at my home.

As I said, this is because they are Indian muslims, who are certainly not pure by any arabic standards.

Re: # 465

How many Swami Narayan temples were built after independence (1947) in Pakistan?

Rathar how many temples were built after PAkistani nation came into existence?

Please provide some information.

Laddu the world is full of muslims who are really good friends with idol worshippers like yourself, how can you possibly not know that?

ranjit you are right :

KARACHI: Holi festival celebrated


By Our Staff Reporter

KARACHI, March 6: Like elsewhere in the world, the Hindu community celebrated the annual festival of colours, Holi, here on Saturday. The children threw colours on each other and also visited their relatives. The festival is celebrated to mark the victory of good forces over the evil ones.

Areas like the one near Swami Narayan Temple or those near the Ranchhore Lines, where the Hindus live in considerable numbers, wore a festive look with colours flowing in the air.

Special prayers were offered in all temples, with the main prayer meeting at Swami Narayan Temple.

Religious scholars in their sermons highlighted the importance of Holi and urged people to adopt the path of goodness. Prayers were also offered for the solidarity of Pakistan and prosperity of the community.

Bhajans were also sung on the occasion. Food was distributed freely among the devotees.

The Adviser on Housing and Town planning, Waseem Akhtar, visited the Soldier Bazaar Temple to greet the Hindu community on their festival.

PM

The problem with interpretationism (reading texts) is not that one cannot come up with an interpretation one likes, and be fully convinced of its accuracy. The problem is that there is absolutely no way to keep OTHERS from coming up with interpretations THEY like and be equally (or more) convinced.

Why doesn't Vaticanism (Christianity?) get blamed for the persecution and murder of Jews by Hitler and others is a minor miracle (LOL...another "proof" in support of Christianity for those who associate proofs with miracles :)). One can talk about that, although I suspect there may be valid reasons (by valid reasons one never means anything that depends merely on people's personal interpretations).

tahmed, which world do you live in,really? Pakistan is not all that strategic to the well being of India. Pakistan, when all said and done, is inconsequential to the development and rise of India. It is a mere blip on the radar screen. Nuclear weapon or no nuclear weapon. Wait for the next messiah..

Re: # 460

How many Swami Narayan temples were built after independence in Pakistan?

Re: # 455

Hey PM ji,

There are historical evidences in the form of confessions and boasting from official biographers of these genocidal devout muslims.
I do not want to burden this site with it. Much of it is gory and graphical enough to set the blood boiling of any idolator.
All that nonsense went all the way down till Vijayanagar kingdom. All in the name of Islam.
All that nonsense of muslims proudly killing, beheading, carrying back wives and small children as slaves in the name of Allah.
It is revolting!!!

Re:laddu#459
"The day muslims allows say a Swami Narayan Temple to be built in Pakistan and allots land for that I would believe that Pakistani state has got over the Quranic hatred and phobia of idolators"

Laddu, if I am not mistaken there is already a fairly large Swami Narayan Temple in Karachi. Karachiites may please confirm the same.

tahmed saheb,

As a practicing idolator I have no fear of muslims like you or perhaps even Asadi because you guys do not believe in the genocidal agendas of Quran unlike some like Zeemax or UrsTruly.
I am sure the wahabis and other mullah followers consider you guys as apostates, mushriqoons etc. etc. because you would refuse to bear any hatred towards me because of my idolatory.
If you believe that most of the Pakistanis are ok with idolators like me then I would love to see some idols and temples constructed in Pakistan.

The day muslims allows say a Swami Narayan Temple to be built in Pakistan and allots land for that I would believe that Pakistani state has got over the Quranic hatred and phobia of idolators .

ajeya, re. #440 & #441

That the Pakistani establishment has tried to emphasise the Muslim's differentness from Hindus in order to, rightly or wrongly, justify the TNT, and that this differentness has always taken the shape of a discourse of Muslim/Islamic superiority, is no secret.

What is also in the open, however, is that there are many voices within Pakistan, Muslim too, I assure you, that speak out against such wanton distortion of history and the use of hatred and xenophobia as tools for solidarity-building.

To what extent this is intrinsically a religiously-driven agenda, as opposed to a a political one, is another question. But judging from the reports of incredible warmth shown by Pakistani hosts to their Indian visitors during the recent Cricket tours, and from the idolizing of Indian movie stars -- Muslim, Hindu and Christin alike -- one would not be amiss in suggesting that the experiment has not exactly been a rousing success.

So breathe a little easy, my friend... the average Muslim is not out to dimmhiize you these days.

masadi in #447: "The missionary and the natives during the colonial era and for those of us who have studied in the US we are well aware of the new form of that when the CCC- Campus Crusade for Christ targets and tries to bribe International Students towards their "salvation"... "

This, after writing this in #421:
"But once you cross the limit of encroaching on other people's freedom and privacy as many Christian missionaries do, then you certainly would have crossed the line,... [emphasis added]

Need I say more? Or would I risk being accused of being on the payroll of the evil CCC, going around bribing innocent non-believers, thus depriving them of their freedom and privacy!?

laddu #436 Thanks for the kind words. Obviously your knowledge of the "muslim psyche" is based on what you have ben told, and it is easily contradicted by facts that I think you should examine for yourself. I present a few below:

1. The warm welcome given to Indians visiting Pakistan. This came as a surprise to many Indians who visited Pakistan in large numbers a couple of years ago to watch the test matches. Cab drivers refused to accept payment for their services, crowds applauded Indian players when they scored (and the only person booed in Lahore was a local politician), Indians reported being treated in a more friendly and respectful manner by Pakistani police than their own Indian police ever did. No one, not even Islamist parties, attacked any of the thousands of Indians (or idol-worshippers, as you have been referring to yourself) who came to Pakistan then. Sikhs visiting Pakistan for far longer have always known this basic friendly nature of the average Pakistani.

2. Indians have every practical reason to seek good relations with Pakistan - militarily, Pakistan has the means to cause a nuclear holocaust in the sub-continent if it came to an existential threat; strategically, India has no choice but to have good relations Pakistan in order to establish links of its growing economy with the middle east (as in case of the gas pipeline) and central asia (e.g. road trade with Afghanistan and even, later, with China via silk route); and to compete in the global marketplace, it is in the Indian interest to have the world see South Asia as a region of peace where investors need not fear future wars.

So, put two and two together - Pakistanis are not the bloodthirsty idol-breakers that individual like Jay Thakeray and Ajeya and so many others on chowk try to portray them (as did those from whom you got this impression before coming to chowk). They are normal people, struggling today to gain their freedom from a power-hungry general and his fascist allies.

Today is the time for Indians to stand up and be counted as being supporters of freedom for Pakistan, rather than to seek to demonize them by equating them with the worst of the fascists they are in facting struggling against. I have no doubt that Pakistanis will long remember who stood by them, and who stood aside and merely enjoyed their predicament, during these historic days in Pakistan.

re. laddu various:
"My fore fathers were murdered just because they did not believe in the muslim point of view about a so called 'formless" god.

Ludds, Unless you're Sindhi, you can't even begin to make a case based on historical facts. Now, assuming you are Sindhi and are (legitimately) seeking compensation for Muhammed Bin Qasim's bloodletting when he conquered Sindh, you'd still be hardpressed to find Quranic sanction for that wholesale slaughter, or of Akbar's similar attempt at genocide on taking Chittorgarh.

-- unless, of course, you're also about to lay responsibility of Hitler's actions at the doorstep of the Vatican.

Kaalchakra #446: no ideology eliminates individual-level variation, and that one single strategy may be best implemented in many different forms depending upon prevailing external conditions.

I agree with you, but I think instead of "ideology" you should use the term to "goals" and to "principles". A goal is what we ultimately seek, principles are what constrain the means we use to achieve those goals, whereas ideology is I think best described as being a "mindset" that one indivdiual or one group seeks to promote/impose as replacement for goals and principles.

"Goals" and "principles" are what unite humanity (e.g. the goals of scientific and economic advancement, law and order; or the principle of honesty). No one, not even the most powerful dictator, will dare to argue against them. And a focus on goals and principles liberate the individual and enable broad debate on strategies.

"Ideology" on the other hand is what divides one group from another ("Islamic Ideology", "Hindu Ideology", "Communist Ideology", "Nazi Ideology", "Neo-Con Ideology"), seek to enslave the individual. Ideology-focussed societies have ultimately been forced to shed their ideologies and join the rest of humanity (as in case of Nazism, then Communism, and neo-Cons being now on the wane in the US after six years of disastrous results).

That is why I am optimistic that, regardless of the hindu and muslim ideologues on chowk - the reality is that time is against them. BJP has already shown that it carries no magic solution, and no longer promotes hindu ideology (per my limited knowledge of India, of course) with the same fervor today as it did in the 1970's and 80's I think - it was forced to wake up to the reality, e.g., that Pakistan was no walkover in 1998 and switched its tune on India-Pakistan relations almost overnight. The same for islamic ideologues in Pakistan. While the military may find it conducive to promote islamic ideology in Pakistan (e.g. by naming missiles after looters like Ghauri, allowing lal masjid maulvis to impose their views on poor shopkeepers and women from unconnected families), the broad-based public support for the non-ideologue parties and the court system shows that Pakistanis see through it too.

Not a single conviction has taken place in the thousands of muslims killed and raped in bombay and gujrat. the idolators will also be given no peace and will be fought till the last muslim child is alive or the day of judgement which ever comes first.

#446 Posted by KaalChakra

[The point is, both sides could learn (and probably agree) a little more if neither left gaping holes in their arguments. And I genuinely believe at least some (definitely not all) on both sides are willing to listen (sometimes).]

Yes. This is why you are a closet-liberal. Because you are spouting the favorite 50-50 theory that liberals love so much - everybody is equally guilty - Christ, Muhammad, Buddha, Pol Pot, Hitler - everybody. And all ideologies equally valid - Naziism, Taoism, Christianity, Jainism - everything. Pol pot's victims would be alive today if they and Pol Pot's men were JUST willing to listen to each other.

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

#443 Posted by KaalChakra

[No Ajeya, weak arguments serve little purpose because they convince only those who are already convinced.]

So if his argument is wasted, why does that get you so bothered? There's no shortage of those here at Chowk.

I think the more important point is - what effect YOUR post had on the discussion.


[Here is another recent example.

X: Muslims (don't hesitate to) kill kaffirs.
Y: Muslims ruled for a thousand years and still left so many Hindus alive.

Both are very weak statements, justifiable, at best, only in light of each other. Nobody in the least understood the other's perspective.

What is the point of such 'discussions, ajeya?']

You could have ignored his "pointless" post like you ignore many others - couldn't you?

borivali,

In most cases one can instinctively oppose whatever Jyoti Punwani/Yoginder Sikand sort support and support what they oppose without running any risk of going wrong.

It is a matter of different interests. Ms Punwani and her type can go blow themselves and/or their neighbors up if they so desire.

Pervez Hoodbhoy
THANKYOU for the treatise.
I hope the Muslims find the soluion to their problems in the article. Blind Freddy should be able to find it.The female "theives of Baghdad" with Lathee 'religion' in their hands is a starting point, followed by a definition of a "scholar".
Rashid

O Ye miserable hindus this is what you do when you have power, that is why God denied it to you for a thousand years, you are worst then the worst Barbarian who called himself muslim i.e. Timur Lang:

The Times of India -Breaking news, views. reviews, cricket from across India


Driven to despair
20 Jul 2007, 0030 hrs IST,Jyoti Punwani

SMS NEWS to 8888 for latest updates
On January 10, 1993, Hajirabi Qureishi saw her husband and eldest son dragged from her house by Shiv Sainiks who used to hang around the local Sena shakha. When she tried to stop the sainiks, they pushed her off the parapet and she lost consciousness. She never saw her husband and son again.

Much before his inquiry into the 1992-93 Mumbai riots was complete, Justice Srikrishna wrote a letter to the government recommending immediate payment of compensation for missing persons in cases that he had personally investigated. The Qureishis headed that list. Hajirabi should have received Rs 4,00,000; instead she received Rs 2,00,000 eight years later for her husband. Compensation for her son Saleem Qureishi continues to form the subject matter of petitions being heard for the ump-teenth time in the Supreme Court.

Unable to cope with memories of their disappearance, Hajirabi left the Hindu-Muslim chawl that had been home for years to live in a Muslim ghetto. Every known and unknown Muslim organisation had its offices there, including SIMI. Yet they could not recruit Hajira's son Rizwan, his father's favourite.

Farooq Mapkar should have been an ideal candidate for SIMI. Shot in his shoulder on January 10, 1993, while praying inside a mosque, this bank employee saw a namazi being shot dead at point-blank range despite coming out of the mosque with his hands up. Along with the other namazis, Farooq was charged under Section 307.

Fourteen years later, Farooq continues to take leave from his job to attend court hearings in a case declared false by the Srikrishna commission. Contrast this with the case of sub-inspector Nikhil Kapse. The commission found him guilty for unprovoked firing that killed six innocent Muslims. But he was exonerated by a bunch of policemen entrusted with implementing the commission's findings.

The policemen didn't think it necessary to talk to those who testified in front of the commission about the incident involving Kapse. In these 14 years, Kapse hasn't faced a day's suspension. More than Farooq and Rizwan, Abdullah would have made the ideal jehadi. As a 12-year-old, he saw his handicapped father being dragged down the stairs of the madrassa where he taught and shot, pleading for water as he lay dying. Abdullah continued to live in the same madrassa. Eight years later, he joined the legal battle to put behind bars the policemen charged with murder for this incident. When he lost, the entire madrassa felt betrayed.

Even while lashing out at the government's indulgence towards policemen charged with murder, Abdullah was packing his bags for further studies in Deoband. He had graduated from his madrassa with flying colours, with full marks in logic. "Why don't you study law", i asked, "you could fight for your father". "My world is the hereafter", he replied. "He can't get involved in all this", added his teachers.

Mumbai's riot orphans have grown up deprived of their childhood, seen their mothers struggle alone - and often fail - to give them the education their fathers desired for them. They've seen those who led the violent mobs become ministers. A sitting judge pronounced these policemen guilty; his report became an election issue and made ministers out of nobodies, but has yet to be acted upon.

They've seen, over the last year, those who took revenge on their behalf by killing innocent Hindus, being made to pay, some even with life sentences.

Last week, as two Muslim accused in the July 11 train blasts in Mumbai confessed on TV (by a mysterious coincidence, all channels got hold of the footage exactly a year after the blasts), the news anchors screamed: "This man not only betrayed his nation, but also humanity. Doesn't your blood boil when you see this traitor"?

Narendra Modi could be accused of having done the same. No channel asks these questions about him. These double standards are now part of being a Muslim in India's "vibrant" democracy. We should be thankful hundreds of Kafeel Ahmeds haven't produced a swadeshi version of jehad.

The writer is a political commentator.

PM writes "Care to elaborate of the modus operandi to which you are referring?? "

The missionary and the natives during the colonial era and for those of us who have studied in the US we are well aware of the new form of that when the CCC- Campus Crusade for Christ targets and tries to bribe International Students towards their "salvation"...

laddu, true or not, # 445 would be a 'stronger' form of argument. One could give it even greater power by understanding that no ideology eliminates individual-level variation, and that one single strategy may be best implemented in many different forms depending upon prevailing external conditions.

The point is, both sides could learn (and probably agree) a little more if neither left gaping holes in their arguments. And I genuinely believe at least some (definitely not all) on both sides are willing to listen (sometimes).

Kaal,

you daid "X: Muslims (don't hesitate to) kill kaffirs.
Y: Muslims ruled for a thousand years and still left so many Hindus alive."

Ther is no in consistency if we look at the wider perspective and program of Islam.

Fact- Islam needs zimmis and kafirs to survive.

Islam needs slaves and dhimmis/zimmis because their economy is based upon rent seeking out of zimmis and looting and plunderings of kafirs.

The reason why moghuls and other muslim rulers did not convert every one by sword was primarily because of stiff idolator resistence , im practicability of doing so and finally because the surviving idolators bribed the qazis and got themselves upgraded as zimmis.

The ruled part of the indian continent was divided into small rent seeking zimmidaris and the original arabic moghuls were given the 'zimma' of keeping my idolator forefathers who thnakfully bribed their way to zimmi-hood. The zimma was valued in terms of wealth of the idolator hindus who were required to pay regularly to the moghul kings.

Those who were incapable to pay or rebelled and refused were demoted to kafirs and were immediately despatched to Allah's hell as prescribed by Quran and hadiths.

The plight of my fore fathers was written dosn as per the Quranic manual. This ping pong between being a zimmi (if you pay) and being a kafir (if you do not pay) went for long . We idolators have suffered long to know why moguls and muslims DID NOT KILL all of us.

If every idolator or zimmi becomes muslim then where would the Allah's booties, slaves and kaneezs come to the faithfuls as ordained by the Quran???

"Not only "modern, educated" but most Muslims are willing to allow any idolater to do whatever they wish to do on their own.

And don't bring in kaaba; that is a different matter."

Kaal,

The roots of muslim violence lies in Kabba.

Remember, the original moment of violence was the destruction of 360 idols in kabba. The original root of in tolerance towards kafirs and idolators in muslim psyche begins there.
If the 360 idols are re-established in the city elsewhere, then the muslim paranoia against idolators would diminish.

It is necessary that muslims MUST up root the source of their original paranoia against idolators that leads to violence and the problem of subsequent justifications and conspiracy theories.

Once the polarity of idolatory vs monotheism is deconstructed the roots of muslim violence would end.

No Ajeya, weak arguments serve little purpose because they convince only those who are already convinced.

Here is another recent example.

X: Muslims (don't hesitate to) kill kaffirs.
Y: Muslims ruled for a thousand years and still left so many Hindus alive.

Both are very weak statements, justifiable, at best, only in light of each other. Nobody in the least understood the other's perspective.

What is the point of such 'discussions, ajeya?'

ALL these Pakis - they have grown up reading this stuff. And add Islam on top of that. How can you expect them to be normal people?

The first time I heard about Chowk was from a co-worker. His message with the hyperlink for Chowk was headed: "Pathetic Pakis".

How true.

Oh, I should also post this:

Hate Material

Associated with the insistence on the Ideology of Pakistan has been an essential component
of hate against India and the Hindus.

For the upholders of the Ideology of Pakistan, the existence of Pakistan is defined only in
relation to Hindus, and hence the Hindus have to be painted as negatively as possible.
That the pathological hate against Hindus is only because of adopting the so-called Ideology
of Pakistan is borne out by the fact that the pre-Ideology (before the 1970s) textbooks of
Pakistan did not contain this hatred. Although a lot of animosity towards Hindus might well
have been expected in the newborn Pakistan because of the bloody riots of the partition,
the early textbooks in Pakistan, many written after the partition, were free of the
pathological hate that we see in textbooks today. For example:

1. The early history books contained chapters on both the oldest civilizations Moen Jo
Daro, Harappa, Gandhara, etc., but also the early Hindu mythologies of Ramayana
and Mahabharata and extensively covered, often with admiration, the great Hindu
and Buddhist kingdoms of the Mauryas and the Guptas.
2. The books indeed showed biases when discussing the more recent history of the
politics of independence, but still one found school textbooks with chapters on Mr.
M. K. Gandhi, using words of respect for him and admiring him for his qualities.
3. Even in the somewhat biased history of politics of independence, the creation of
Pakistan was reasoned on the intransigence of the All India Congress and its
leadership rather than on ‘Hindu machinations’.
4. Some books also clearly mentioned that the most prominent Islamic religious
leaders were all bitterly opposed to the creation of Pakistan.

Such was the enlightened teaching of history for the first twenty five years of Pakistan
even though two wars were fought against India in this period. The print and electronic
media often indulged in anti-Hindu propaganda, but the educational material was by and
large free of bias against Hindus.
Then came the time when Indo-Pakistan History and Geography were replaced with
Pakistan Studies, and Pakistan was defined as an Islamic state. The history of Pakistan
became equivalent to the history of Muslims in the subcontinent. It started with the Arab
conquest of Sindh and swiftly jumped to the Muslim conquerors from Central Asia.
Simultaneously, there started a trend in the 1970s of stressing the so-called Ideology of
Pakistan. This involved creating an ideological straitjacket in which history of Pakistan,
especially that of the Pakistan Movement was to be re-written. Pakistan was told to have
been created to establish a truly Islamic state in accordance with the tenets of Qur’an
and Sunnah. The Ulema who had bitterly opposed the creation of Pakistan were turned
into heroes of Pakistan movement. The Quaid-i-Azam was represented as a pious
practicing Muslim. And hate and denigration was created for Hindus. A few examples of
the expression of this hate in some recent curriculum documents and textbooks are
given below.
Curriculum documents state the following as the specific learning objectives:
[The child should be able to] understand the Hindu and Muslim differences and
the resultant need for Pakistan98
Develop understanding of the Hindu Muslim Differences and need for Pakistan99
98 Curriculum Document, Primary Education, Classes K-V, Integrated and Subject Based, National Bureau of
Curriculum and Textbooks, Ministry of Education, Government of Pakistan, Islamabad, 1995, p 151
99 National Curriculum, Social Studies for Classes I-V, Government of Pakistan, Ministry of Education
(Curriculum Wing) Islamabad, March 2002, p 35
20

Insensitivity to the Religious Diversity of the Nation
Hindu-Muslim Differences in Culture, .. India’s evil designs against Pakistan (the
three wars with India)100
Identify the events in relation to Hindu-Muslim differences, which laid the
foundations for Pakistan101
The textbooks then respond in the following way to the above curriculum instructions:
Hindu has always been an enemy of Islam.102
The religion of the Hindus did not teach them good things -- Hindus did not
respect women...103
Hindus worship in temples which are very narrow and dark places, where they
worship idols. Only one person can enter the temple at a time. In our mosques,
on the other hand, all Muslims can say their prayers together.104
‘ … the social evils of the Hindus’105
Hindus thought that there was no country other than India, nor any people other
than the Indians, nor did anyone else possess any knowledge106.
[A story “The Enemy Pilot�, about a captured Indian pilot, presumably of Hindu
faith] He had only been taught never to have pity on Muslims, to always bother
the neighbouring Muslims, to weaken them to the extent that they forget about
freedom, and that it is better to finish off the enemy. He remembered that the
Hindus tried to please their Devi Kali by slaughtering innocent people of other
faiths at her feet; that they regarded everybody else as untouchables. He knew
that his country India had attacked Pakistan in the dead of the night to bleed
Pakistani Muslims and to dominate the entire Subcontinent.107
The Hindus who have always been opportunists cooperated with the English.108
…but Hindus very cunningly succeeded in making the British believe that the
Muslims were solely responsible for the [1857] rebellion.109
Nehru report exposed the Hindu mentality.110

The Quaid saw through the machinations of the Hindus.111
Hindus declared the Congress rule as the Hindu rule, and started to unleash terror
on Muslims.112
The Hindus always desired to crush the Muslims as a nation. Several attempts were
made by the Hindus to erase the Muslim culture and civilisation. Hindi-Urdu
controversy, shudhi and sanghtan movements are the most glaring examples of the
ignoble Hindu mentality.113
While the Muslims provided all type of help to those wishing to leave Pakistan, the
people of India committed cruelties against the Muslims (refugees). They would
attack the buses, trucks, and trains carrying the Muslim refugees and they were
murdered and looted.114
After 1965 war India conspired with the Hindus of Bengal and succeeded in
spreading hate among the Bengalis about West Pakistan and finally attacked on
East Pakistan in December 71, thus causing the breakup of East and West
Pakistan.11

re: #439

Check this out:

The Subtle Subversion
The State of
Curricula and Textbooks
in Pakistan
Urdu, English, Social Studies and Civics
Editors: A. H. Nayyar and Ahmad Salim


Here's an excerpt:

Four themes emerge most strongly as constituting the bulk of the curricula and textbooks of the three compulsory subjects.

1. that Pakistan is for Muslims alone;
2. that Islamic teachings, including a compulsory reading and memorization of Qur’an,
are to be included in all the subjects, hence to be forcibly taught to all the students,
whatever their faith,;
3. that Ideology of Pakistan is to be internalized as faith, and that hate be created against
Hindus and India; and
4. students are to be urged to take the path of Jehad and Shahadat.


We shall elaborate on them one by one.


Pakistanis as Muslims Alone


The process of equating the Muslim and Pakistani identities starts in very early school
education. For example, the most recent National Early Childhood Education (ECE)
curriculum41 released in March 2002 requires as an objective
To nurture in children a sense of Islamic identity and pride in being
Pakistani.42
There is no mention that this is to be done among Muslim students alone. The suggested
material under this objective is all Islamiat that is to be read by pupils of all religions.
For Class IV and V students, the Urdu curriculum requires that
A feeling be created among students that they are the members of a Muslim
nation. Therefore, in accordance with the Islamic tradition, they have to be
truthful, honest, patriotic and life-sacrificing mujahids (janbaz mujahid)43

Or,
To educate and train the future generations of Pakistan as a true practicing
Muslim44
Or,
To develop a sense of pride in being Muslim and Pakistani45
Or,
Knows that national culture is not the local culture or local customs, but that it
means the culture the principles of which are laid down by Islam46
The textbooks then pick up from this point and express these requirements as follows.
The class II Urdu book has a lesson on “Our Country�, the first sentences of which read:
Our country is Pakistan. We live in our country. Pakistan is an Islamic country.
Here Muslims live. Muslims believe in the unity of Allah. They do good deeds. ..47

The Class 6 book says:
Who am I? I am a Muslim. I am a Pakistani. I love my country and I love my
people. … You know that you are a Muslim and your religion is Islam.48
It conveys the message that being a Pakistani is equated with being a Muslim, and that only
Muslims are true Pakistani citizens. Patriotism has been equated with Islamic zeal. The way
it has been said clearly alienates religious minorities.


Compulsory Teaching of Islamiat to Non-Muslim Students

The educational material attempts to teach Islamiat to all the students irrespective of their
faith through the compulsory subjects of Social/Pakistan Studies, Urdu and English.
Although non-Muslims are not required to take the fourth compulsory subject of Islamiat,
there is an extraordinary incentive for them in the form of 25% additional marks for learning
and taking examinations in Islamiat.
The curricula of all these subjects require every Pakistani, irrespective of his (her) faith, to
love, respect, be proud of and practice Islamic principles, traditions, customs, rituals, etc.,
Both the curricula and textbooks are enlightening in this respect. The National Early
Childhood Education Curriculum (NECEC) would like to impart to the primary school
children, and not just to Muslim children, the following ‘life skills’49:

�􀀃 Use greetings such as Assalam-o-Alaikum
�􀀃 Know when to say “Bismillah�
�􀀃 Recite the first Kalemah and understand its meaning
�􀀃 Name the five daily prayers
�􀀃 Learn about Ramadhan and Eidain


The primary education curriculum of 1995 lays down the following objective in the
Urdu curriculum:To create awareness of and love for Islamic beliefs, and to bring
up children according to Islamic values.50
Or,
Be proud of Islamic way of life, and try to acquire and adopt Islamic teachings51
Or,
Should try to adopt principles of Islamic way of living52
Or,
To participate in Salat ba Jamat in mosques, to develop a sense of respect for
Muezzin and Imam53
Or,
Read Qur’an, and respect it54
Or,
Listen to the events from Islamic history and derive pleasure from them55
Or,
�􀀃 Should try to adopt principles of Islamic way of living
�􀀃 Respect for Islamic beliefs and practices
�􀀃 study religious books in order to understand Qur’anic teachings
�􀀃 respect Islamic or national customs and urge others to do the same
�􀀃 …. To love Islamic traditions
�􀀃 In the textbooks, such subjects be included in sufficient numbers that emphasise
…, the importance and greatness of Islam
�􀀃 Arrange functions/ events on Islamic and national themes, and students be asked
to memorize such poems, …, etc., that express national and Islamic sentiments
And the list is unending.
The Urdu language curriculum even prescribes lessons. A small sample follows56:


Class IV
Suggestions on preparing textbooks

3 Topics of books
a. Events from the life of the Holy Prophet, His family, and Islamic leaders (Imams)
b. Stories from the history of Islam
c. True friendship (from the life of Hazrat Abu Bakr Siddique)
d. …, Islamic preachers, …
e. Famous women of Islam

f. Golden quotes (sayings of the Muslim thinkers, religious scholars and spiritual
leaders)

Class V
3 Topics for lessons

a. Events from the life of the Holy Prophet, His family and Islamic leaders
b. Stories of Imams and the Prophet’s companions (sacrifice: from the life of Hazrat
Usman)
c. Stories about the Pakistan movement, eminent personalities of Pakistan, and
martyrs of Pakistan
d. Simple stories to urge for Jehad
e. Unity of the Islamic world
It is worth noting that the most recent Urdu textbooks in Punjab and the Federal Area have
religious (Islamic) contents in the following proportion: (full details are given in Part B of this
chapter)
Class I57 4 out of 25 lessons
Class II58 8 out of 33 lessons
Class II59 22 out of 44 lessons
Class III60 23 out of 51 lessons
Class IV61 10 out of 45 lessons
Class V62 7 out of 34 lessons
Class VI63 14 out of 46 lessons
Class VII64 16 out of 53 lessons
Class VIII65 15 out of 46 lessons
Class IX-X66 10 out of 68 lessons
Lesson-wise detail is given in Part B.
Similarly, textbooks on Social Studies, another compulsory subject that starts from Class 3,
all have at least 4 chapters on personalities, which are invariably Islamic religious
personalities. Note the detail below.
Class III: Chapters on the prophets Adam, Abraham, Jesus and Mohammad (pbuh)67
Class IV: Chapters on Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), Hazrat Abu Bakr, Hazrat Umar, and
Hazrat Khadija68

Class V: Hazrat Fatima (ra), Mohammad bin Qasim, Shah Waliullah69

Thus all non-Muslim students in the mainstream educational system are taught Islamic
religious studies. In fact, when the most recent national curriculum document clearly vows
To make the Qur’anic principles and Islamic practices as an integral part of
curricula so that the message of the Holy Qur’an could be disseminated in the
process of education as well as training. To educate and train the future
generations of Pakistan as a true practicing Muslim who would be able to usher
in the 21st century and the next millennium with courage, confidence, wisdom
and tolerance70
and requires the following as objectives of teaching Urdu language71
To create love for religion and respect for personalities
a. must have belief in the Unity of God, and know that Allah is the creator of the universe.
b. Must regard Islamic ways as the best of all
c. Must have reverence for all the messengers of God, Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), His
family members, His companions, the Imams and the leaders, and must try to know
their teachings and adopt their ways
d. Must maintain affinity (love) with the Islamic world
e. Must respect the leaders, books, places of worship of other religions
f. Must be aware of the blessings of Jehad, and must create yearning for Jehad in his
heart.
it shows itself to be grossly insensitive to the existence and need of non-Muslims among the
students.

Compulsory reading of Qur’an: misrepresenting and violating the Constitution of Pakistan
The second, and more disturbing part of this is to make the non-Muslim students read
Qur’an, not in Islamiat which they are not required to learn, but in the compulsory subject of
Urdu.
Urdu textbooks from Class I to III, which are compulsory for students of all faiths, contain
lessons on learning to read Qur’an. Progressing from Class I where Arabic alphabets are
introduced in a lesson titled Iqra, to the lesson entitled “E’rab� on punctuations in Class II
Urdu book, to the lessons in Class III Urdu book entitled “Qur’an Parhna� (reading the
Qur’an), which has seven lessons (out of a total of 51) on learning to read Qur’an. The non-
Muslim students must learn these lessons and prepare them for examinations also.
Interestingly, these lessons are not prescribed in the Urdu curricula of these classes.
This clearly violates the rights of religious minorities.
The National Curriculum of March 2002 lays down the following as the first objective:
2.5.1: �To make the Qur’anic principles and Islamic practices as an integral part
of curricula so that the message of the Holy Qur’an could be disseminated in the

and so on.....

#434 Posted by laddu

[You find the plight of my fore fathers and their genocide BORING??]

laddu,

You are not going to get a straight answer from tahmed. Or any other Paki. Remember, he has grown up studying Pakistani history books.

Get one of those books sometime, and you'll see why he's not likely to give you an answer.

#437 Posted by KaalChakra

[Not only "modern, educated" but most Muslims are willing to allow any idolater to do whatever they wish to do on their own.]

At the very best, the most I can say about your post is that you are effectively saying that there are a FEW Muslims that would NOT "allow any idolater to do whatever they wish to do on their own".

But the more important things about your post are 1)what EFFECT it has on the dialogue, and 2) what your motive is for posting this.

For 1), it is very clear that you want to portray the feeling that whatever laddu is doing is somehow wrong.

And for 2), your motive is to endear yourself with the Islamists so that you can keep continuing your "dialogue".

I think you should take up golf or something.

[And don't bring in kaaba; that is a different matter.]

Why is that a "different matter"?

laddu, you are all over the map, with a myriad "complaints" against Muslims. That is the strategy of whiners who are not looking to actually arrive at any solutions.

Not only "modern, educated" but most Muslims are willing to allow any idolater to do whatever they wish to do on their own.

And don't bring in kaaba; that is a different matter.

tahmed saheb,

You have my respect personally. But, It is my opinion that muslim psyche would transform only when they DO NOT take pride in breaking my idols and places of worship.
Tolerance to idolators and my idolatory is the only solution to the current phobia that is gripping the muslim world.

Modern day educated muslims like you must allow IDOLATORS like me a right to their polytheistic faith in the muslim lands and Kabba. Only then can the mullah's grip over common muslim's mind would end.

laddu #434 Please. I have already been called insensitive (among other) things on another board...by fellow Pakistanis like Masadi no less. :-(

PS: It is hard to take you seriously when you write the kind of things you wrote in #429. If you want to be taken seriously - then try and stick to facts, and try to write something positive. As people who are more fortunate than 99 percent of our countrymen, all chowkies have a responsibility to their less fortunate countrymen do what little we can to promote peace and goodwill in the subcontinent. Those who seek to do the opposite - the arjuns of chowk - are the worst enemies of the people they claim to represent (Indians). You seem like a well meaning fellow, although you get carried away with rhetoric. Try not to become like the gone cases from India on chowk. Seriously speaking!!

Re: # 431

tahmed saheb,

I am not being dramatic.

I am just asking muslims like you to regain their sensitivity towards the cause of hatred in Paksitan and mulim world.

You find the plight of my fore fathers and their genocide BORING??

How insensitive have you become?

laddu: you write Al Qaeda says that I am a legitimate target.

Wow!! That is impressive!! I bet Ben Laden has a price of one dozen camels on your head!!

Re: # 428

Hey DM,

It is like saying the actually we are born masoom and muslims.

We are all "originally" muslims. That is why Islam has an "original" claim on every one's soul for submission.

And by the way, this 'assimilation' of the story about Abraham establishing Kabaa is another myth. The myth about Abraham was 'assimilated' so as to allow justification of violence and murder of the idolators.The entire Abrhamic legend 'superimposed' was to justify Mohammad's occupation of Kabba.
Infact , the evils of Islam come from the myth of Abraham . The roots of Islamic violence lay in this legend of idol breaking Abraham that Islam tries to use in order to justify violence towards idolators like me.

So Al Qaeda says that I am a legitimate target. I am not sursprised because Quran has already passed fatwa on my head since last 1000 years.

As Hirsi Ali says " WE are all under Fatwa".

I agree with her.

laddu: I must say you are doing a much better job than arjun or jay thakeray. They lack that dramatic flair you possess. In fact they have become dull with time (yawn).
You would not by any chance be trying to take their job away by impressing the BJP Department of Propaganda and BS are you?

laddu: you write My fore fathers were murdered...Millions were beheaded...decimate his civilization , rape his women and enslave his family...Millions were beheaded because my idolator fore fathers were poly theists and pagans

And where in India did they teach you this? In Bollywood studios? Glad to see your forefathers managed to reproduce before being beheaded, btw. Otherwise Chowk would be lacking a drama-major with us today.

Re: # 424

Prime Minister Saheb,

Evolutionist and Creationist have proponents in the world of Sciences.

But they do not kill each other over it.

The issue I am raising is one of hatred and murderous intent BECAUSE some body is not willing to convert to your point of view.

My fore fathers were murdered just because they did not believe in the muslim point of view about a so called 'formless" god.

Millions were beheaded because my idolator fore fathers were poly theists and pagans.

How can some body kill another , decimate his civilization , rape his women and enslave his family because he holds a non monotheist metaphysical view??

How ???

dullabhatti#427:


"kaaba was a mosque before Mohamamd?'

You obviously need to perfect your knowledge of Islamic mythology/history. :)

According to Islam, Mohammad did not bring Islam to this world but it is the religion of mankind, starting with the origin of Adam and Eve, Hazrat Adam being the first Prophet of Islam. According to their belief, Prophet Abraham built and worshipped at the Kaaba which, therefore, was a proper masjid before the pagans of Mecca placed their idols in it and turned it into their place of worship. In this way, Prophet Mohammad merely restored Kaaba to its original status.

kaaba was a mosque before Mohamamd?

masadi#421:

"THe idolators have no right to take over mosques and build them as idol houses, for their perversions and profitability. That is the tale behind the Kaaba."

Replace idolators with Muslims and mosques with temples and this is dangerously close to the argument used by the ruffians who demolished the babri masjid.

Re: # 422

Laddu,

you are asking Masadi the wrong questions - He specializes in consipary theories about US and things US.

He does not know shit about these other issues you raise and hence shows his ignorance by taking the route he has.

cheers

re, laddu:
I am yet to see a muslim who would love me because I love idolatory.

hmm... Mommy wasn't very nice to you, eh?

But seriously, asking that a group opposed to idolatry love you because you love idolatory (as opposed to inspite of your love for it) is a little like asking that Evolutionists to love Creationists because they believe in silly things like Adam and Eve being blown into existence from sand.

re. masadi:
"But once you cross the limit of encroaching on other people's freedom and privacy as many Christian missionaries do, then you certainly would have crossed the line,...

Care to elaborate of the modus operandi to which you are referring??

Hey,

Asadi, Dude. This is cool. You would NOT get worked up if I establish my idols and do shodopachar pujan in muslim lands.
Great. Then we can be friends. If you do behave nicely then I do not mind your keeping an air of having found some 'truth' in your Quran.
I have found my 'truths' in idolatory which I do not intend to impose on any one or kill any one else over it.
I love idolatory!!
If you muslims do not intend to do all those beheadings that your Ghazis did to my forefathers then I have no issues with Mr. Asadi.
You can continue carrying your air of having found some 'truth'. I will keep to my 'truths' about my polytheistic metaphysics.
Let me see what others have to say about my idolator ways. Especially the fact that after reading Quran I have already rejected the message. Now , I continue practicing my idolatory and doing panchopachar and shodopachar pujan on my idols. I do not accept the message or Quran, nor accept its self-evidentiary claims to truths. To me it is a rant of a pagal adami.
So , what do guys like zeemax, echo and HE etc have to say about it??

Laddu writes :

"Tell me if my temple with idols is a 'legitimate' target or not?"

Who says they are "targets", they are places of practicing irrational beliefs, nobody said loony tunes were a 'legitimate' target. In fact the Quran is quite explicit in telling the Muslims, "not to attack their idols", this tells me how little you know of the Quran, you fool.

"Tell me if you would allow me to live as a practicing idolator and allow me to propagate my idolatory?"

You want to propage the monkey-god or what not that is your privilage, only bigger idiots than you will (as some of the Mullahs are) will get all worked up over that. But once you cross the limit of encroaching on other people's freedom and privacy as many Christian missionaries do, then you certainly would have crossed the line, and I'll call the cops on your a$$

"Tell me if you would condemn Mohammad's destroying the idols and killing the un-repentent idolators.?"

THe idolators have no right to take over mosques and build them as idol houses, for their perversions and profitability. That is the tale behind the Kaaba. No unrepentant idolators were killed or sanction given for their killing unless they attack Muslims in battle willing to kill them.

"Tell me if after reading the Quran and having rejected it's so called message, woulde you consider me a 'legitaime' target of death or not?"

Of course not, I have already stated that in the previous post but you are too dumb to understand my answer. The Quran is quite clear, "let him/her who will believe and let him/her who will disbelieve", it further tells us and the prophet, "You are in no way a compellor over them", then it is quite explicit in saying, "There is no compulsion in religion, truth is clear from falsehood..."

"Tell me if you would allow me to re-buile temples in your pureland and establish idols.??"

I am not the ruler of Arabia, when that happens (which will be soon enough =)), I will allow all indigeneous idol worshippers to establish their temples on their own land. No implants from india will be allowed to grab land like the Israelis and then try to change the demography of the region.

"Tell me if you would allow me to establish temples with idols in Mecca or not??"

(See the answer to the previous question)

I told you to shut up about the Quran, you know NOTHING about it, your statement are not only ignorant they reveal your bigotry hidden behing your dimwit facade. It shows us that what you invent regarding the Quran and Muslims, you believe in yourself regarding those that don't belong to your group, especially the Muslims.

Fool, neither you nor your dimwit friends here possess even a tiny atom worth of morality and enlightenment contained in the Quran...

"Regarding the Quran, the book is a mercy to humankind...."

Yes, the only mercy to my idolator fore fathers was to let them live as zimmis with those yearly payoffs so as to let them live in servitude to Islamic fascism.

Entire Quran is based upon idolo-phobia.

I am yet to see a muslim who has got over this phobia.

I am yet to see a muslim who would love me because I love idolatory.

I am yet to see a muslims who would say that Mohammad did the wrong thing in prescribing the violence against idolators ns their idols.

I am yet to see a muslim who has got over the idolatory-phobia and can enter my temples with reverence towards my gods.

Asadi Saheb,

Tell me if my temple with idols is a 'legitimate' target or not?

Tell me if you would allow me to live as a practicing idolator and allow me to propagate my idolatory?

Tell me if you would condemn Mohammad's destroying the idols and killing the un-repentent idolators.?

Tell me if after reading the Quran and having rejected it's so called message, woulde you consider me a 'legitaime' target of death or not?

Tell me if you would allow me to re-buile temples in your pureland and establish idols.??

Tell me if you would allow me to establish temples with idols in Mecca or not??

Asadi Saheb,

Tell me if my temple with idols is a 'legitimate' target or not?

Tell me if you would allow me to live as a practicing idolator and allow me to propagate my idolatory?

Tell me if you would condemn Mohammad's destroying the idols and killing the un-repentent idolators.?

Tell me if after reading the Quran and having rejected it's so called message, woulde you consider me a 'legitaime' target of death or not?

Tell me if you would allow me to re-buile temples in your pureland and establish idols.??

Tell me if you would allow me to establish temples with idols in Mecca or not??

laddu writes "Every hindu idolator is a 'legitimate' target."

Not every hindu, but you certainly would be a legitimate target for psychiatric treatment. A-holes and lunatics like you don't belong in civilized society, and just like poverty, if we judge from the Chowk Indians, lunacy is quite widespread in India.

Regarding the Quran, the book is a mercy to humankind, it frees the dogmatic mind and it produces brotherhood of man, the kind that bigots like you can never come close to imagining. Don't open your pathetic dirty stinking mouth to lie about that book. You know NOTHING about the Quran and neither does your dimwit friend Arjun

The Lashkar — which functions under the Jamaat-ud-Dawa — is ‘banned’ in Pakistan. But its chief Hafiz Saeed continues his weekly sermons which receive wide publicity on the website that is updated regularly.



Terrorist and terrorist group openly in the land of the pure...

surely this can't be true...prophet tahmed told us so..

Re: # 413

The "mess" is created by Wahabism and literalist Islamists. The mess is already there in Islam- it is already there in Quran. The Hadiths are even more clearer about this 'mess'.

Every hindu idolator is a 'legitimate' target.

Ask Zeemax.
Ask Echoboom.
Ask Naqshabandi.

Ask them all.
Are idolators like me legitimate' targets on not??

Ask them.

Is Al Qaeda wrong in calling me a 'legitimate' target??

They are already sharpening their knives to kill idolators like me.

The butchers have already started shouting allahu while

Yada Yada ....This is the mess called PAKILAND...and what every Paki is viewed across the world when he shows his passport...or has links to Pakiland.
Pak Army repeating its mistakes of ’71: LashkarAds By

The Pakistani Army is repeating the mistakes it committed in 1971 in East Pakistan by taking on militant Islamists in the country today, the Lashkar-e-Taiba has warned in a recent statement posted on its website jamatdawah.org.

"Unfortunately, our rulers are making Pakistan's armed forces commit the same mistakes that they had previously committed in East Pakistan… the situation, therefore, is becoming critical with every passing day," the statement said.

The Lashkar — which functions under the Jamaat-ud-Dawa — is ‘banned’ in Pakistan. But its chief Hafiz Saeed continues his weekly sermons which receive wide publicity on the website that is updated regularly.

The Lashkar argues that the army’s action against militant Islamists in Pakistan today is as unpopular as what the khakis did in East Pakistan in 1971 — when Yahya Khan and other generals played a “despicable role� in “destroying the morals� of unit commanders by participating in and encouraging acts of “licentiousness and lewdness�.

"The result was widespread hatred against the army in East Pakistan and it had to fight a war against its own people," the Lashkar said.
The organisation’s warnings are a pointer to the dangers posed by militant Islamists in Pakistan, which has long received sustenance from the country’s military.

The statement claimed the army’s reputation had been tainted by the Lal Masjid incident, adding that Pakistan’s rulers must “apologise to the nation for the debacle�.

#409 Posted by tahmed32 on August 6, 2007 8:46:51 am


laddu: and what else did they teach you in India? :-)


if you don't believe him, which koran did they teach you in the land of the pure?

tahmed bhai,

I have read the truth about the 'fatwa' on me from Quran and the Hadiths. I can tell you the verses from which I learnt what fate awaits idolators like me. I have learnt from reading the history from the mouth of heros of Pakistan. I have learnt it from Moududi. I have learnt it from all the Wahabis. I have learnt the truth about Quranic fatwa on my head from numerous tafsirs about how a faithful muslim should treat an idolator like me.
Now Al Qaeda also calls me a legitimate target. It is a foregone conclusion because as a country of idolators I have always been a legitimate target.
I have learnt it from muslims. I have not read any book of RSS or VHP in coming to the conclusion about Quran as the source of hatred towards me.

#409 Posted by tahmed32

[laddu: and what else did they teach you in India? :-) ]

India is not an Islamic country like Pakistan. Unlike Pakiland, hate is not institutionalized in India. Unlike Paki schools that have on their curriculum lies about Hindus and hatred for Hindus, Indian schools do not carry books that teach hatred for Muslims.

It is only in the Madrassas of India where they teach hate for Hindus in India. (Ask me for facts and figures on this.)

laddu: and what else did they teach you in India? :-)

Quran had NO positive contribution to make to the world. It is a document of hate. It aims at killing and butchering idolators like me. It justifies random killing , butchery, beheadings and rape of idolators like me. It aims to decimate idolator's civilzation and it's contribution to the mankind.
Mohammad had no contribution to make to the world except create a martial race that believes in fascistic domination over other cultures.
Quran is the most regressive and unscientific document that cannot be accepted in the modern scientific world. It is at variance with scientific virtue of dis-belief and scepticism and aims at enforcing unfounded CERTAINITY about a perverse theology of a blood thirsty god.

zee
[...pakiland is economically well despite problem...]

I don't think that's true... from what I read from paki newspapers - the middle class is shrinking fast... more and more people are being driven into penury... exports have been down for a while...

Some segments have done well: mobile operators, banking etc... foreign money in exchange for assistance in WOT has given support to the economy - other than that there isn't much happening in pakiland - as far as I can tell...

(corrected version of #405- ignore my post #405)

asri #303 I have tried to respond to your individual points below and in summary, the point I have tried to make is that there is much more to muslims than your personal experiences. While I agree that scientific study is the way to go, a broad-based review of religious books also reveals a good deal about human aspirations and fears through the centuries. And studied in that light, these books (Quran, Bible, Vedas etc.) can serve to enrich our lives and deepen our udnerstanding of humanity much more than mere rejection of books of another religion as being the works of the devil.

On your specific points:

you wrote: is your problem with me mentioning Beslan and Koran in one sentence ?

That is indeed my problem. Unless you tell me that no non-nonmuslim ever attacked children.

In response to my statement "you wont find western scholars and statesmen demonizing Islam the way indians do every day on chowk.", you wrote Western people, my dear friend, didn't live with Muslims in their midst creating nuisance in their neighborhoods for decades.

Wrong. A scholar by definition takes a broader and more dispassionate look at the facts. You are merely allowing the communal hatreds festering within your community in India to form your views towards an entire religion. And btw, muslims were making a "nuisance" of themselves in Europe for at least as long as in India - and not merely as part of the Crusades: Spain became the most enlightened part of Europe for centures under muslim rule; Europeans moved from the dark ages to the leader in human progress in large part due to muslim contributions. And even the Crusades were not a total loss - chivalry in battle earnt Salahuddin respect that was reflected centuries later in UK's main armored vehicle being named after him (Saladin); the stimulus to road-building and the economy by the Crusades hastened the end of the dark ages as surely as the more direct manner in which muslims contributed; Charlemagne's, Emperor Frederick I, had a muslim bodyguard (and even a couple of muslim wives, as I read in a book by Karen Armstrong) in his capital Aachen in the heart of Germany.

So, if you are going to demonize the Quran on account of your own negative experiences with muslims in India, how about crediting the Quran with the massive positive contributions of Muslims through the centuries not just in India but on a much vaster playing field around the world??

you write They didn't live with muslims blowing up their festival shoppers and local trains & buses every now and then. and hindus are saints and never did such a thing?

you write If my good American friend/colleague is to be believed, the hatred developing in their hearts is a very familiar note to it.
I have never seen any people so given to hopes of the rest of the world sharing their hatreds as Indians on chowk. This is where I think Indians like you are so clueless about American culture, even though you live in their midst for decades!! They teach diversity and respect for all cultures in US schools right from kindergarten onwards. Indians coming to the US at the university level obviously missed on this basic education, and that is why they fail to understand this basic difference between US and Indian culture.

you write We all know what the famous curse word of white Britons is.... inspite of... you know.. the "fair and lovely" Pakistanis.
This is another example of how you are clinging to straws in your hopes that the rest of the world shares your hatreds. This why I say this: The word "paki" was in vogue 40 years ago among a narrow group of losers in the UK (the skinheads). Such ethnic cuss words are hardly reserved for pakistanis alone (nip for japanese, polack for polish, wop for italian, dago for spanish, limey for englishmen, hun for german, raghead for arab, paddy for irishman ...the list goes on) than anything else. So, the fact that you make a big deal of this to make a big deal tells me how little you understand US or western culture. As for Pakistanis being "fair and lovely", I realized this was the case from Indians like you. In Pakistan, "gandami rang" (the one most Pakistanis are blessed with) is considered to be quite different from "fair". Another example of going off-track by thinking others with a different experience think the way you do.

you wrote Yes I did grow up in the primitive culture of clashes between segregated neighborhoods of Hyderabad old city. I must say my young mind had quite a few experiences as I was growing up...

This of course is why I said earlier that I respect your views (i.e. you are writing straight, rather than trying to be clever like some people do on chowk). As kaalchakra noted below, this gives us a chance to consider that our views are shaped by our experiences. (Perhaps kaalchakra would like to take the time to add his insights on this).

you write I abondoned belief in stupidity (also called religion) long ago. So you are dead wrong on your presumption that I spoke bad about Islam only because I am a Hindu.
religion is about identity as well as theology. you may not believe in hindu theology, but clearly your distaste for muslims is based on negative experiences.

you write Either everybody else is wrong or the Muslims who are fighting everybody else are wrong ?
This is a good question, but the answer you imply is wrong. To find the answer, you need to understand the historical roots (e.g. muslim political successes of past centuries, the retreat from which has led to isolated pockets of muslim communities in europe), and also realize that much of the muslims world is in fact doing very well indeed (Indians go to muslim countries for jobs, not vice versa).

you write It is no exagerration when I say I did read books written by gods. After all, according to those gods, it is possible for a man to fly like a bird, cure diseases like magic, travel to the heavens, harness energy greater than what is contained in himself, etc. May be it is time for humans to realize that and read more of those kinds of books.

Agreed on your basic point. Note though that no one claims that holy books are written by gods. The christians have their four apostles, muslims have scribes commissioned by usman, hindus have their vedas that were transcribed after centuries of verbal recitation by human scribes, and confucius made no bones about who wrote his stuff. These books are "divinely inspired" though, in the sense that they provide us with a sense of there being more to living than individual selfishness - i.e. a moral compass that seeks to channel human behavior to benefit entire mankind, rather than simply "wet one's beak" as the crooks say in the Godfather. And in the sense of there being more to things than what we observe - something scientific inquiry has revealed to us in incredible powerful ways in the centuries since these holy books were penned.

This has been a lengthy post, but hopefully not a total waste of time reading it. :-)

sri #303 I have tried to respond to your individual points below and in summary, the point I have tried to make is that there is much more to muslims than your personal experiences. While I agree that scientific study is the way to go, a broad-based review of religious books also reveals a good deal about human aspirations and fears through the centuries. And studied in that light, these books (Quran, Bible, Vedas etc.) can serve to enrich our lives and deepen our udnerstanding of humanity much more than mere rejection of books of another religion as being the works of the deveil.

On your specific points:

you wrote: is your problem with me mentioning Beslan and Koran in one sentence ?

That is indeed my problem. Unless you tell me that no non-nonmuslim ever attacked children.

In response to my statement "you wont find western scholars and statesmen demonizing Islam the way indians do every day on chowk.", you wrote Western people, my dear friend, didn't live with Muslims in their midst creating nuisance in their neighborhoods for decades.

This is precisely what I am saying: you are allowing the communal hatreds festering within your community in India to form your views towards an entire religion. A scholar by definition takes a broader and more dispassionate look at the facts. And btw, muslims were making a "nuisance" of themselves in Europe for at least as long as in India - and not merely as part of the Crusades: Spain became the most enlightened part of Europe for centures under muslim rule; Europeans moved from the dark ages to the leader in human progress in large part due to muslim contributions. And even the Crusades were not a total loss - chivalry in battle earnt Salahuddin respect that was reflected centuries later in UK's main armored vehicle being named after him (Saladin); the stimulus to road-building and the economy by the Crusades hastened the end of the dark ages as surely as the more direct manner in which muslims contributed; Charlemagne's, Emperor Frederick I, had a muslim bodyguard (and even a couple of muslim wives, as I read in a book by Karen Armstrong) in his capital Aachen in the heart of Germany.

So, if you are going to demonize the Quran on account of your own negative experiences with muslims in India, how about crediting the Quran with the massive positive contributions of Muslims through the centuries not just in India but on a much vaster playing field around the world??

you write They didn't live with muslims blowing up their festival shoppers and local trains & buses every now and then. and hindus are saints and never did such a thing?
you write If my good American friend/colleague is to be believed, the hatred developing in their hearts is a very familiar note to it.
I have never seen any people so given to hopes of the rest of the world sharing their hatreds as Indians on chowk. This is where I think Indians like you are so clueless about American culture, even though you live in their midst for decades!! They teach diversity and respect for all cultures in US schools right from kindergarten onwards. Indians coming to the US at the university level obviously missed on this basic education, and that is why they fail to understand this basic difference between US and Indian culture.

you write We all know what the famous curse word of white Britons is.... inspite of... you know.. the "fair and lovely" Pakistanis.
This is another example of how you are clinging to straws in your hopes that the rest of the world shares your hatreds. This why I say this: The word "paki" was in vogue 40 years ago among a narrow group of losers in the UK (the skinheads). Such ethnic cuss words are hardly reserved for pakistanis alone (nip for japanese, polack for polish, wop for italian, dago for spanish, limey for englishmen, hun for german, raghead for arab, paddy for irishman ...the list goes on) than anything else. So, the fact that you make a big deal of this to make a big deal tells me how little you understand US or western culture. As for Pakistanis being "fair and lovely", I realized this was the case from Indians like you. In Pakistan, "gandami rang" (the one most Pakistanis are blessed with) is considered to be quite different from "fair". Another example of going off-track by thinking others with a different experience think the way you do.

you wrote Yes I did grow up in the primitive culture of clashes between segregated neighborhoods of Hyderabad old city. I must say my young mind had quite a few experiences as I was growing up...

This of course is why I respect your views (i.e. you are writing straight, rather than trying to be clever like some people do on chowk) since (as kaalchakra noted below) this gives us a chance to consider that our views are shaped by our experiences. (Perhaps kaalchakra would like to take the time to add his insights on this).

you write I abondoned belief in stupidity (also called religion) long ago. So you are dead wrong on your presumption that I spoke bad about Islam only because I am a Hindu. religion is about identity as well as theology. you may not believe in hindu theology, but clearly your distaste for muslims is based on negative experiences.

"Your spirit, my friend, is that of too many of your spiteful little countrymen who visit chowk."
you write Either everybody else is wrong or the Muslims who are fighting everybody else are wrong ? This is a good question, but the answer you imply is wrong. To find the answer, you need to understand the historical roots (e.g. muslim political successes of past centuries, the retreat from which has led to isolated pockets of muslim communities in europe), and also realize that much of the muslims world is in fact doing very well indeed (Indians go to muslim countries for jobs, not vice versa).

you write It is no exagerration when I say I did read books written by gods. After all, according to those gods, it is possible for a man to fly like a bird, cure diseases like magic, travel to the heavens, harness energy greater than what is contained in himself, etc. May be it is time for humans to realize that and read more of those kinds of books.

No one claims that holy books are written by gods. The christians have their four apostles, muslims have scribes commissioned by usman, hindus have their vedas that were transcribed after centuries of verbal recitation by human scribes, and confucius made no bones about who wrote his stuff. These books are "divinely inspired" though, in the sense that they provide us with a sense of there being more to living than individual selfishness - i.e. a moral compass that seeks to channel human behavior to benefit entire mankind, rather than simply "wet one's beak" as the crooks say in the Godfather. And in the sense of there being more to things than what we observe - something scientific inquiry has revealed to us in incredible powerful ways in the centuries since these holy books were penned.

Sorry for the lengthy post.

#403 Posted by aslam644 ,

Well your guess is just that ... a guess.

Re: # 402
my guess is over 90% of those in slums in bombay are muslims and dalits.

#401 Posted by aslam644 ,

Glad to note that Bombay is rural.

Indian middle class have never had it so good, rural areas not so good, certain groups, muslims, dalits, tribals facing discrimination and other impediments in their progress.

The challenge now should be to be all inclusive development, so that every group has a rightful place under the Indian sun.

And you talk of billionaires? Shame on you ....

LoL. At-least the guy has a sense of humour:

The filmaker Prahlad Kakkar, the auteur of the toilet documentary Bumbay, told a startled interviewer that in Bombay "half the population doesn't have a toilet to shit in, so they shit outside That's five million people. If they shit half a kilo each, that's two and a half million kilos of shit each morning."

The pic may not be from bharat. But the accompanying text certainly is:

Thursday, July 06, 2006
Living in Shit (an excerpt from Mike Davis' Planet of Slums)

India - where an estimated 700 million people are forced to defecate in the open - only 17 of 3700 cities and large towns have any kind of primary sewage treatment before finaly disposal. A study of 22 slums in India found 9 with no latrine facilities at all; in another 10, there were just 19 latrines for 102,000 people. The filmaker Prahlad Kakkar, the auteur of the toilet documentary Bumbay, told a startled interviewer that in Bombay "half the population doesn't have a toilet to shit in, so they shit outside That's five million people. If they shit half a kilo each, that's two and a half million kilos of shit each morning." Similarly, "a 1990 survey of Delhi," reports Susan Chaplin, "showed that the 480,000 families in 1100 slum settlements had access to only 160 toilet seats and 110 mobile toilet vans. The lack of toilet facilities in slum areas has forced slum dwellers to use any open space, such as public parks, and thus has created tensions between them and middle class residents over defecation rights." Indeed, Arundhati Roy tells of three Delhi slum-dwellers who in 1998 were "shot for shitting in public places."

Thursday, July 06, 2006
Living in Shit (an excerpt from Mike Davis' Planet of Slums)

India - where an estimated 700 million people are forced to defecate in the open - only 17 of 3700 cities and large towns have any kind of primary sewage treatment before finaly disposal. A study of 22 slums in India found 9 with no latrine facilities at all; in another 10, there were just 19 latrines for 102,000 people. The filmaker Prahlad Kakkar, the auteur of the toilet documentary Bumbay, told a startled interviewer that in Bombay "half the population doesn't have a toilet to shit in, so they shit outside That's five million people. If they shit half a kilo each, that's two and a half million kilos of shit each morning." Similarly, "a 1990 survey of Delhi," reports Susan Chaplin, "showed that the 480,000 families in 1100 slum settlements had access to only 160 toilet seats and 110 mobile toilet vans. The lack of toilet facilities in slum areas has forced slum dwellers to use any open space, such as public parks, and thus has created tensions between them and middle class residents over defecation rights." Indeed, Arundhati Roy tells of three Delhi slum-dwellers who in 1998 were "shot for shitting in public places."

#394 Posted by harish_hyd,

Not correct. Read Dost_Mittar's post on the subject on this board. Pakistan's doing fine despite all its problems. Much better than could be expected and certainly far ahead of India, domestically.

All India has done is to take advantage of globalization which only benefits a few. Pakistan has a different path.

#394 by harish_hyd

"Economics" should be "economy".

#392 by zeemax

Yaar Zee, the number of billionaires only reflects the country's economic capabilities, and how effectively some people have leveraged it to make more money. As India opened up its economy, people took the opportunities, set up industries, employed people, sold their goods, and made profits. In the process, some became billionaires. There is no reason why Pakistan can't do so too, but unfortunately, that isn't happening. Pakis still seem to be debating on whether Pakistan should be secular or Islamic, and the accompanying strife has put Pakistan's economics on the backburner. Foreigners are not willing to invest in Pakistan, Pakis themselves prefer investing in real estate rather than setting up industries, and the common man has nothing to look forward to. When a country isn't generating enough money for all its people, it is only natural that conditions worsen for its citizens.

At this point of time, India and Pakistan may be at the same stage, but India seems to be looking forward, while Pakistan looks backward.

Yasser,

What apologies? This is classic case of fudging. We are talking abt filth in Isloo and Karachi. U are talking abt apologies. For what?

There's a pix with Islamabad caption. U guys are telling that Hassanabdal is not in Islamabad (though the newspaper Dawn had mention of Islamabad). I went by what ur newspaper wrote.

If u have forgotten, ALL the Pakistanis (incl U) on UP are talking abt firing & deaths IN Hyderabad recently. Nobody from India sought apologies from u or others for that. THE FIRING HAPPENED IN NALGONDA DIST.....250 KMS from HYDERABAD. Nobody from India sought anybody's apologies.

What kind of world do u live? Why u fudge the topic of discussion?

One psychologist on UP rightly said abt ur EQ (guess who).

#391 Posted by harish_hyd,

Harish, my point is simply that having a dozen billionaires is nothing to jump up and down about. India is NOT going anywhere in a hurry with a few more billionaires each year.

What's your point zee mian? That India is poor? We all know it is and will continue to remain so for a long time to come. You have ghettos even in the US, supposedly the richest country in the world. The thing zee mian is that India is providing more opportunities for its people, the people here are upbeat about their future and generally, things are looking up for them.

You guys on the other hand, still aren't clear about which way you want to go. The YLH types swear Pakistan was meant to be secular, while folks like you are sure it was meant to be Islamic. And while you guys battle it out, Pakistan continues to slide downhill. A lot of the senior Pakis say that materially, Pakistan was definitely better in the 70s and is worse off today. Can you deny this fact? OTOH, senior Indians, while lamenting the lack of respect for traditions and the ostentatiousness, concede that India is materially way ahead of how it was 20-30 years ago.

Every statistic, be it from the IMF, WB, UN or any other body, clearly points to the rise of India and the slide of Pakistan. Even so, large sections of our populations are denied access to even basic amenities, but unless there is economic growth, we aren't going to be able to lift them up from poverty, and to this end, India is definitely on the right track. And that takes care of a lot of things.

#387 Posted by Ranjit,

30 years ago? This is Calcutta last year:



...S teve explained that there were countless such areas along the river and throughout the city—even communities that lived in caves.

Teaching the pakistanis,


Indians need to teach the pakistanis the notion of self respect. Immediately after its creation, pakistan was part of CENTO, send the U2 over the USSR from the pak bases.

Then it was the turn of the saudis to be masters of pakistan when the hoodood and blasphemy laws were introduced and the town of lalitpur renamed as faisalabad.

Then it was the americans again during the afghan war and all the generals licked the boots of any GI.

Now it is teh turn of the chinese to rule over the pakistanis. The only reason for the attack on lala masjid was the kidnapping of the chinese.

The situation is so pathetic that the chinese have been allowed to run brothels in islamabad to service the army.

The zeexax of teh world are going gaga about thsi as a significant event, no noe at all, the only significance is that the army will take on even the mullahs when the chinese running brothels are interfered with.

Pakistanis have to be taught some priciples of self respect, and let us start with one at a time, YLH first followed by tahmed.

cost of jihadis,

Pakistan is always telling that they have lost so many soldiers to jihadis in waziristan. The numbers tell a different story. They have lost around 800 and that is nothing compared to the army with half a million.

Pakistanis want the US to say where the jihadis are hiding, promptly the ISI get them out. There was a program where they went with the cameras to catch a jihadi and he had gone. The army general was telling that probably the jihadi jumoped from the balcony which the army did not anticipate.

Pakistan can talk about loses only when around 100,000 of pak army are killed.

The latest count of around 40 should keep the americans quite for a month.

The good part is for the pak press the soldiers are martyred while the jihadis are killed. That is sad, the jihadis have been denied heaven at least by the pak press.

Pathetic is the situation in pakistan.

Re:zeemax
"As soon as indians fix their own dark & dank morass"

Haha!! Bandar kya jaane adrak ka swaad. Ok, feel happy in your delusions based on a visit 30 years back and some left wing internet articles. I just came back from India. Forget about south delhi where my parents live, if you visit the outskirts at gurgaon or noida, your head will spin at the level of affluence. Malls all over the plance, highways, high rises, its amazing. I live in the US and I can tell you that I was dazzled. Anyway, you can continue to stew in your hatred.

#385 Posted by Ranjit

first go and implement Islam in Pakistan and leave India to Indians.

Exactly. As soon as indians fix their own dark & dank morass and leave Pakistan to Pakistanis.

Zeemax,

Ok, India is poor. Shabaash!! But why are you taking out your impotent anger against Musharraf and Pak army on India? What did we do to you?

Just move on in life and worry about Pakistan, where Musharraf is shooting your favorite jihadis and jihadans like people would shoot fish in a barrel. Every day dozens are being killed in NWFP. People like Manto and Hamidm are popping champagne and drooling at the sight of barbecued jihadis. So if you have any balls, first go and implement Islam in Pakistan and leave India to Indians.

Wait for the latest edition of 'billionaires' slums!

India shining? Heck no.

India Squatting? ... Hell Yes.

Country on Parade
April 15, 2005

The overwhelming impression? Poverty. Two recent 24 hour journeys in second-class compartments on trains, and I came home stunned -- I mean this, I was simply stunned -- at the number and variety of people who streamed through the coach asking for coins. Or who did so from the stations we stopped at. Or who were obviously destitute and desperate even if they did not beg.

Eunuchs; blind men; blind couples; men on their behinds with a leg draped around their necks, one with a bag of grapes hanging from his toes; young kids doing some little act; young girls singing tunelessly; boys and men and women sweeping the compartment, some with the shirts off their backs; filthy mothers with a seemingly lifeless kid lolling in their arms; a bearded midget who didn't say a word; men without one or more limbs; men on crutches; a young man who picked up discarded watermelon rinds from under the train and chewed on them; a smiling old man who switched from Tamil to English to Tamil again, asking for money all the while; assorted others. From early in the morning, all through the day, well into the night. On and on.

I've travelled second-class for over 35 years now: short journeys, long ones, in every part of the country. For the sense it gives you of what India is about, it is indisputably the best way to travel. It occurred to me that on none of those journeys, over all those years, did I see so many beggars, so much poverty. All of which, like always, gave me a sense of what my country is about, circa 2005.

Yes, this is 2005. We are a decade-and-a-half into reforms and liberalisation and the tearing down of socialism that, we have been told, is addressing India's gargantuan problem of poverty in the most efficient way possible. The proponents of this great exercise will quote arguments and figures at length to make that case, to persuade us that poverty is on the wane. And if you look at their figures, you will indeed be persuaded. Figures are like that.

But then I do this second-class journey, and I am left with fumbling, groping questions: Why can't I see it, this dramatic decrease in poverty that's supposed to be chugging along so nicely? Why, in all the years that I've noticed and been aware of realities in my country, have I not felt there is a perceptible drop in the number of poor people? And on this one journey, why do I see more beggars -- many more -- than I ever have on such a trip?

Anecdotal evidence, those proponents will say, supercilious smile spreading on their faces because they believe they know better. Anecdotal evidence doesn't count. You have to look at the numbers. If you do, you will understand what we've been saying: the move to free markets is bringing more people out of poverty faster than anything else ever has, at any time in our history. In fact, it's a proven fact that free markets are the only mechanism there is to truly address poverty.

So just give it some time.

Oh yes, time. After all, who would expect an end to widespread poverty overnight? It must and will take time.

Then again, the reforms have been in place nearly 15 years. That's over a third of the time from 1947 till liberalisation began. By any standards, that hardly qualifies as "overnight" any more. By any standards, after 15 years during which droves of people escaped from being poor, I should see around me some perceptible decrease in poverty.

On this trip, I didn't.

Look at it this way: let's say I've been piling our household trash outside my front door for a year. Let's say I've steadily ignored my wife's pleas to clean the godawful mess that's now built up there. Until today, when I finally tell her I'm going to clean up. It's a huge job, but I do get started on it. Every day, I show my wife figures of the number of truckloads of dirt I've carted off from our door to the city dump.

Four months from now -- one-third of the year that I dumped garbage uncaringly at our front door -- would she be entitled to expect that the rubbish pile has visibly diminished?

And if she doesn't see this -- if she instead sees it looming just as large, perhaps even larger -- would she be entitled to think, this husband of mine is doing something wrong. If he's doing anything at all. What's more, would it make sense for me to smile superciliously at her worries and whip out my figures again? Tell her that her fears about the non-decreasing pile amount to just so much anecdotal evidence, and that doesn't count?

Absurd, of course. By themselves, figures mean nothing. The anecdotal evidence gives them heft and credibility.

Again, look at it this way: If I never had seen Indians defecating on the tracks, on the rocks at low tide, by the side of the road -- yes, if I never had seen such sights, it would be difficult to believe the troubling statistic that nearly seven of every 10 Indians lack access to reasonable sanitation. But I have seen them. That's why I have a sense that the figure is likely to be true. What's more, it's the only way I have of judging the truth in the figure.

In much the same way, our encounters with poor Indians are the anecdotal evidence that allows us to judge the truth about levels of poverty; about claims that those levels have decreased. What's more, they are the only way we have to judge those claims.

There's no doubt in my mind: reforms must happen. But 15 years after the process began, I can't help feeling that something is wrong about the way we are pursuing them. For I am yet to see the one effect they must have, first and above all: a visible lessening in the level of Indian poverty. Fewer poor Indians around us. I can't see that.

This train journey, in which Indian poverty streamed past me as if we were t some surreal alternate Republic Day parade, showed me as much.

You can send me comments at ddd@rediff.co.in

#381 Posted by MantoLives

How about YOU apologizing after you found out that YOU were terribly wrong about there not being slums in Islamabad, Karachi and Lahore?

Dear Folio,

I am not sure who you are addressing as "Gandhiji"... but I am surprised that even after finding out that you were horribly and terribly wrong you haven't apologised.

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HP,

Nobody from Indian side brought out this filthy stuff here. It's ur Peemax who did that. This donkey has no other job in life than to pour muck here.

GandooZee,

Ur fellow Pakistani FV is offneded that bad images of Pakistan came-up.

She was quite happy as long as Indian pictures were appearing and the gory pictures of Indian deadbodies are published.

As for Hassanabdal or merigaandabdal, it makes no diff to an outsider like me...coz the newsreport came under Islamabad.

Do u want it more clearer??

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Sorry for revealing the 'dhol kaa pol' ... of billionaires.

Hmm .... bolti band ho gai ...

Good.

Now back to the subject ... unless the monkeys want more.

Now a very special link ... right out of the horse's mouth ... The Railway authorities ... (drum roll):

Expressing concern at the insanitary conditions at the Patna Junction due to open use of railway tracks and yards as ‘public latrine’, the DRM said the railway administration has already launched an ‘awareness drive’ pleading the people not to defecate on the railway tracks and help railways maintain cleanliness in and around the railway premises. “Otherwise, the railway administration will be forced to use Section 145 of the Railway Act under which people can be imprisoned for six months for doing ‘nuisance’ on the railway tracks and in the railway premises�, he said.

Oh well ... just c/p the following and delete the %20 if it appears.

Weird.

http://reportage.blogspot.com/2004/11/pure-people-world-toilet-day-so-they.h tml

All the links should work now:

pure people
WORLD TOILET DAY So they are going to talk on faeces. Nothing wrong, of course. Bare-bums are public specimens in these parts. And turd, more common than common crows.

'Movers and shakers' of global toilet industry will debate on how to use toilet as a tool for social change. In Beijing for three days.

They say toilets represent the level of development of a country. And a civilisation. And I know 700 million Indians defecate in the open daily.

Nobel winner wrote : Indians defecate everywhere. They defecate, mostly, beside the railway tracks. But they also defecate on the beaches; they defecate on the hills; they defecate on the riverbanks; they defecate on the streets; they never look for cover.

Writing and holding summits are easy. But doing isn't.

Malwadi in Maharashtra is perhaps the only village in India where they fine you Rs 500 for defecating in public. Even kids aren't spared. They got to shell out Rs 100. The campaign was not started by summit-goers, but Chhaya Kamble, a petite dark Dalit woman, an 'untouchable' to India's purest class, the Brahmins, to which the author belongs.

A notice board in the main village square says the village is free of public defecation. Kamble had not made it beyond her primary school.

700 million Indians defecate in the open daily. Not because they want to, but because they have no other way. Other ways don't come easily. They come for a price : vision and action. 110 million Indian houses have no toilets. 10 million Indian houses have bucket toilets. Less than 240 Indian towns and cities have even partial sewage. What Naipaul (oh, my muse in prose) did not ask around. What he did not think to report.

I made a search on 'indians defecate'. And got 112 results. Most quoting Naipaul. Search for Chhaya Kamble returned just one. And Malwadi's magical act remains unknown.

This is why our mamas say, if you sprinkle when you tinkle, please be sweet and wipe the seat.

josh

What does Time have to say about 700 million people defecating on rail tracks in bharat?

delete the %20 in the URL if you copy paste.

There may be an html error in the post below. Anyhow, this is the link.

http://reportage.blogspot.com/2004/11/pure-people-world-toilet-day-so-t hey.html

HAHA...the washtimes cartoon was right..pakiland is like a kutta...when asked to bomb it's people, it says how many bombs..

at this rate allah's is going to have to pay expedited shipping rates on virgins and young boys..

Pakistan has lost 200 troops in tribal areas since July 19

WASHINGTON: Since the start of fresh operations in Waziristan and other tribal areas by Pakistan’s security forces on July 19, over 200 Pakistani soldiers have been killed, according to a report published in the Washington Post on Sunday.

“In just more than one week of conflict, more than 200 Pakistani troops have been killed, US officials said,� says the report.

The report, based on interviews with a half-dozen senior administration and intelligence officials, none of whom was willing to be named, says that Pakistan was forced to abandon its strategy of negotiating with local elements to keep the peace since US intelligence reports clearly showed that Al Qaeda had regrouped in the area and found it to be a safe haven. Pakistan launched a fresh military offensive on 19 July, having deployed two additional brigades in the area, bringing the total number of Pakistani security forces there to 100,000.

The report quoted Ambassador Mahmud Ali Durrani as saying, “We are as committed to defeating terrorism as the US is, because the threat to us is far greater.� Durrani said Pakistani intelligence officials are not convinced that Al Qaeda’s Pakistan operations are as elaborate as US experts believe. “We say there are no safe havens,� he said. “Maybe there are Al Qaeda people hiding in caves or running for their lives, but they aren’t operating in the open because they can’t.� Durrani contends that any Al Qaeda elements actually in Pakistan will soon be driven out or rendered ineffective.

Earlier, “intelligence gleaned from captured Taliban fighters, communications intercepts and overhead surveillance showed that the terrorists had exploited the vacuum created by departing Pakistani troops. Using a combination of bribes and intimidation, foreign fighters had secured the protection of tribal leaders and had begun boldly rebuilding a network largely dismantled during the US-led invasion of Afghanistan,� the Post report said. The intelligence was an “eye-opener� for President Musharraf, though he already sensed the deal was in trouble. Xenia Dormandy, who recently left a senior position at the National Security Council, told the newspaper, “To say we’ve been supporting Musharraf is simplistic. Musharraf has spent six years walking a fine line between a rock and a hard place. Could we push him more? You won’t know the answer until you’ve pushed him too hard and he collapses.� khalid hasan

zeemax: Use an ice pack where it burns...I'm sure your passengers will understand..just tell them you're a paki and you read the time issue on india..

#362 Posted by zeemax on August 5, 2007 3:48:55 pm

awww...zeemax ko mirchi lagi...

I can understand how must be painful..to have the burning sensation all the time when driving a cab for 14 hrs a day..

Quote from below:

I made a search on 'indians defecate'. And got 112 results.

I can believe that.

Oh ... I see a lot of billionaire talk.

I'll leave you to ponder over this:

pure people
WORLD TOILET DAY So they are going to talk on faeces. Nothing wrong, of course. Bare-bums are public specimens in these parts. And turd, more common than common crows.

'Movers and shakers' of global toilet industry will debate on how to use toilet as a tool for social change. In Beijing for three days.

They say toilets represent the level of development of a country. And a civilisation. And I know 700 million Indians defecate in the open daily.

Nobel winner wrote : Indians defecate everywhere. They defecate, mostly, beside the railway tracks. But they also defecate on the beaches; they defecate on the hills; they defecate on the riverbanks; they defecate on the streets; they never look for cover.

Writing and holding summits are easy. But doing isn't.

Malwadi in Maharashtra is perhaps the only village in India where they fine you Rs 500 for defecating in public. Even kids aren't spared. They got to shell out Rs 100. The campaign was not started by summit-goers, but Chhaya Kamble, a petite dark Dalit woman, an 'untouchable' to India's purest class, the Brahmins, to which the author belongs.

A notice board in the main village square says the village is free of public defecation. Kamble had not made it beyond her primary school.

700 million Indians defecate in the open daily. Not because they want to, but because they have no other way. Other ways don't come easily. They come for a price : vision and action. 110 million Indian houses have no toilets. 10 million Indian houses have bucket toilets. Less than 240 Indian towns and cities have even partial sewage. What Naipaul (oh, my muse in prose) did not ask around. What he did not think to report.

I made a search on 'indians defecate'. And got 112 results. Most quoting Naipaul. Search for Chhaya Kamble returned just one. And Malwadi's magical act remains unknown.

This is why our mamas say, if you sprinkle when you tinkle, please be sweet and wipe the seat.

josh

#348 Posted by HP,

HP, this was about the Punjab Feudals. I know the Sindh Feudals are sort of different. I mean ... haris are like slaves there ... really ... but do correct me if I'm wrong.

Re# 359

But this intolerable and unacceptable situation will SOON be corrected with the adoption of Islamic banking and Masadi's "bottoms-up!" economic policies.

Pakis in Top 24 billionaires: ZERO : )

#356 Posted by ajeya on August 5, 2007 3:33:18 pm

you hateful indian you...paki billionaires aren't covered only because people like friedman and other reporters(think joooos) are biased against the land of the pure..

what? you say there are no paki billionaires? not true..ask saima shah..she wrote a whole piece about how friedman, because of his bias against the land of the pure, didn't cover paki billionaires when he covered Azim premji..

Top 24 billionaires:

Rank| Name| Citizenship| Age| Net Worth| ($bil)| Residence |
=======================================================
1 William Gates III United States 51 56.0 United States
2 Warren Buffett United States 76 52.0 United States
3 Carlos Slim Helu Mexico 67 49.0 Mexico
4 Ingvar Kamprad & family Sweden 80 33.0 Switzerland
5 Lakshmi Mittal India 56 32.0 United Kingdom
6 Sheldon Adelson United States 73 26.5 United States
7 Bernard Arnault France 58 26.0 France
8 Amancio Ortega Spain 71 24.0 Spain
9 Li Ka-shing Hong Kong 78 23.0 Hong Kong
10 David Thomson & family Canada 49 22.0 Canada
11 Lawrence Ellison United States 62 21.5 United States
12 Liliane Bettencourt France 84 20.7 France
13 Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Alsaud Saudi Arabia 50 20.3 Saudi Arabia
14 Mukesh Ambani India 49 20.1 India
15 Karl Albrecht Germany 87 20.0 Germany
16 Roman Abramovich Russia 40 18.7 United Kingdom
17 Stefan Persson Sweden 59 18.4 Sweden
18 Anil Ambani India 47 18.2 India
19 Paul Allen United States 54 18.0 United States
20 Theo Albrecht Germany 84 17.5 Germany
21 Azim Premji India 61 17.1 India
22 Lee Shau Kee Hong Kong 79 17.0 Hong Kong
23 Jim Walton United States 59 16.8 United States
24 Christy Walton & family United States 52 16.7 United States
24 S Robson Walton United States 63 16.7 United States

Top 24 billionaires:

Rank| Name| Citizenship| Age| Net Worth| ($bil)| Residence |
============================================================
1 William Gates III United States 51 56.0 United States
2 Warren Buffett United States 76 52.0 United States
3 Carlos Slim Helu Mexico 67 49.0 Mexico
4 Ingvar Kamprad & family Sweden 80 33.0 Switzerland
5 Lakshmi Mittal India 56 32.0 United Kingdom
6 Sheldon Adelson United States 73 26.5 United States
7 Bernard Arnault France 58 26.0 France
8 Amancio Ortega Spain 71 24.0 Spain
9 Li Ka-shing Hong Kong 78 23.0 Hong Kong
10 David Thomson & family Canada 49 22.0 Canada
11 Lawrence Ellison United States 62 21.5 United States
12 Liliane Bettencourt France 84 20.7 France
13 Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Alsaud Saudi Arabia 50 20.3 Saudi Arabia
14 Mukesh Ambani India 49 20.1 India
15 Karl Albrecht Germany 87 20.0 Germany
16 Roman Abramovich Russia 40 18.7 United Kingdom
17 Stefan Persson Sweden 59 18.4 Sweden
18 Anil Ambani India 47 18.2 India
19 Paul Allen United States 54 18.0 United States
20 Theo Albrecht Germany 84 17.5 Germany
21 Azim Premji India 61 17.1 India
22 Lee Shau Kee Hong Kong 79 17.0 Hong Kong
23 Jim Walton United States 59 16.8 United States
24 Christy Walton & family United States 52 16.7 United States
24 S Robson Walton United States 63 16.7 United States

Re: # 351,
"However, both countries have only recently woken up to the enormous opportunity"

Now dostmittar this talk of opportunity has been on for a long time (since the 90's). But then you know, the proof is in the real sales which we havent seen.

caution: the following post may cause significant heartburn for the wagah candle lighting crowd..

RIL may become India's first $100 bn mkt cap firm

DLF's K P Singh becomes rupee trillionaire

In dollar terms, Mukesh Ambani's net worth has risen to about $39.9 billion, with most of it coming from his group's flagship company Reliance Industries, the country's most valued firm with a market cap of about Rs 2,66,300 crore.

Besides, his direct and indirect holdings in RPL, IPCL and Reliance Industrial Infrastructure have also been considered.

Anil follows at second position with a net worth of about $26 billion, by virtue of his stakes in companies like Reliance Communications, Reliance Energy, Reliance Capital, Reliance Natural Resources Ltd and Adlabs Films.

The two Ambanis are followed by Singh at the third position with a net worth of $25.1 billion in the US currency terms, followed by Sunil Mittal of Bharti Airtel at fourth with over Rs 22 billion dollars and Wipro's Azim Premji at fifth with close to $14.6 billion.

The Last Rajah

Among Asia's business titans, Ratan N. Tata stands out for his modesty. The chairman of the Tata Group—India's biggest conglomerate, with businesses ranging from software, cars, and steel to phone service, tea bags, and wristwatches—usually drives himself to the office in his $12,500 Tata Indigo Marina wagon. He prefers to spend weekends in solitude with his two dogs at a beachfront home he designed himself. And disdainful of pretense, he travels alone even on long business trips, eschewing the retinues of aides who typically coddle corporate chieftains.

But the 69-year-old Tata also has a daredevil streak. An avid aviator, he often flies his own Falcon 2000 business jet around India. And in February he caused a sensation at the Aero India 2007 air show by co-piloting Lockheed (LMT) F-16 and Boeing (BA) F-18 fighter jets.

The forcing and cajoling has worked brilliantly. The market value of the 18 listed Tata companies has swelled to $62 billion, from $12 billion, since 2003. Group sales and profits have doubled, to $29 billion and $2.8 billion, respectively. The three big companies that account for 75% of sales—Tata Steel, Tata Motors, and Tata Consultancy Services—are enjoying some of their best years ever. And in May, Tata Tea netted $523 million in profit when Coca-Cola Co. (KO) paid $1.2 billion for its 30% stake in Energy Brands Inc., the maker of Glacéau Vitamin Water. Not bad for a purchase made just nine months earlier. "This is a transformed Tata," says Rajeev Gupta, managing director of private equity shop Carlyle Advisory Partners.

#351 Posted by dost_mittar on August 5, 2007 2:36:08 pm


Kuldip Nayyar is a respected journalist but he would be insulted if I was called his clone.


respected by YOU generation and people who think like you..the wagah candle lighting pakis are just like us punjabi-bros crowd..the generation that gave paki support for islamic terrorism a pass....not by my generation..my generation, the one that'll still be around 20 years from now, don't respect him one bit..

#351 Posted by dost_mittar on August 5, 2007 2:36:08 pm

Use of mobile telephones v/s R&D labs for Nokia, cisco, motorola etc etc..buying ericsson switches v/s actually working on their design...

you're clutching at straws..

arjun2#349:

"Right...Chennai is exporting parts for the worldwide auto market while the pakis are assembling CKD and SKD kits..

Did I say that Pak industry is as developed as India's? From what I have read (someone may have the details, I dont), Pakistanis are now producing a significant proportion of the cars themselves. In any case, isn't how all car industries start?


"In terms of the use of telecommunications, Pakistan, I believe, is ahead of India.


Again...no citation, no facts, no links...just stuff you made up.."

Here is the proof:

"Pakistan’s mobile market lagged India’s through 2004, but here are recent (14–18 months) numbers and calculated growth rates based on data from RCR Wireless (2004) and the respective regulators (Telecom Regulatory Authority of India [for Feb06] and Pakistan Telecommunications Authority [for Jan06]).


Millions of Mobile Subs Mobile Teledensity Growth
Rate
India 84.9 7.9 48%
Pakistan 23.1 14.3 332%


"HAHAHA...they do a piddly 100 million $ of exports a year, most of which comes from call center work which is exactly the lowest end work that pakis mock"

Did I say that Pakistan compares with India in BPO. All I said was that Pakistan is beginning to get noticed, and here is the proof:

"India still the BPO king, but...
August 03, 2007
Whether you like it or hate it, you can't ignore the fact that outsourcing is here to stay. According to a recent A T Kearney study on outsourcing - 2007 Global Services Location Index - India and China continue to dominate.

In both countries, double-digit growth rates have fuelled wage inflation.

Southeast Asian nations continue to do well, with Malaysia, Thailand, The Philippines, Indonesia and Singapore occupying 5 of the top 12 spots and Vietnam entering the top 20.

Sri Lanka and Pakistan enter the Index for the first time at 29 and 30 respectively.Both countries offer many of the same advantages as India, with similar labor costs, widespread use of English, strong education systems and increasingly open and well-regulated business environments. However, both countries have only recently woken up to the enormous opportunity of the offshore services sector and therefore lack India�s breadth and depth of experience. Both countries are also disadvantaged by their relatively smaller population-base and obvious concerns over internal security." [http://specials.rediff.com/money/2007/aug/03slid1.htm]


"Again...kuldi p nayyar clones are long on claims and short on citation and proof..."

Kuldip Nayyar is a respected journalist but he would be insulted if I was called his clone.

DM is right about one thing...Pakiland is ahead of India in the role of telecom in boosting GDP numbers...

India hasn't mastered the art of boosting GDP numbers just by one phone call...I'll have to concede that point to the wagah candle lighting crowd..

#340 Posted by dost_mittar on August 5, 2007 12:38:31 pm


Pakistan's automotive industry is picking up too.


Right...Chennai is exporting parts for the worldwide auto market while the pakis are assembling CKD and SKD kits..


In terms of the use of telecommunications, Pakistan, I believe, is ahead of India.


Again...no citation, no facts, no links...just stuff you made up..

Did you know Nokia, amongst others, have design centers in India..



And the Pak BPO industry is finally being recognised,


HAHAHA...they do a piddly 100 million $ of exports a year, most of which comes from call center work which is exactly the lowest end work that pakis mock...when manto talks about being the SAP contact in Pakiland, he won't tell you that he's only implementing stuff that's partly written in SAP's lab in bangalore...


Again...kuldip nayyar clones are long on claims and short on citation and proof...

#343 Posted by zeemax

“The feudal, regardless of how he is condemned for mere slogan mongering, is responsible for the upkeep of his villagers. Not only their daily meals or shelter over their heads, but also the marriage expenses of their daughters and gainful employment of their sons.�

I don’t know where you got this story from. The new age feudal, even in their own village, expect the union council to clean there driveways. I have yet to meet or know a wadera who feel himself responsible for “daily meals or shelter over their heads�
No such thing exists. Stop spinning stories from Qisa Chahar darwaish. Sometimes, they provide loans for wedding etc but recover every single penny of it.

#344 Posted by zeemax

[.... come up with non-bloggers next time. ]

Ah! So these are NOT Paki cities... Not Islamabad, not Karachi, not La Whore....

Inherited the lying trait from the pedophile-in-chief? Eh? goatbrain?

344 Posted by zeemax

There is no doubt that there is poverty in Pakistan and there are many slums or shantytowns in every major city. Some cities still can’t provide basic services to their residents.
The issue here is we are led to believe that India is the country of Billionaires and Millionaires, its Industrial base is as big as many industrialized western countries. In short, we have people here who claim that there are doodh or Shahad ki nahrain in India.

But when see pictures ( I have seen India up-close)we find out that some Indian perhaps consider black sewer water as black milk and make tea out of it. 90% of Indians perhaps have not seen honey in their whole life so think that if you pour Gurr in water it becomes shahad.

In reality Indian road system is nothing more than either dirt roads or single lane asphalt patches. Cities have no idea what the basic services are. The power is available to only about 20 percent of Villages.

Pakistan has been making progress in basic services for the last 60 years, In India they have not even started.

Indian cities have more slums and footpath dwellers for the simple reason that more Indians are desperately poor. I just read that in Bombay people have lived on Footpaths for generations and have to bribe people for as simple thing as water.

There has been a huge movement of people from the rural areas of Punjab and NWFP and now we see Bengalis and Assami in Karachi. Most of them live in shantytowns.

Karachi Machar colony or the Bengali areas are in pretty desperate shape. Some areas where Pathan live in Karachi too are in pretty bad shape. But Pathans generally like cleanliness in their personal lives so they keep those areas clean as much as possible.

Perhaps personal hygiene is not important to Indian slum dwellers so they don’t even pay attention to what is around them.

But we cannot compare India with Pakistan because as I said India is a “country of Billionaires and Millionaires and IT with doodh or Shahad ki nahrain" everywhere. Pakistan is a poor country and we are happy with what we have and don’t need to be chichoora about our lives.

The real problem is that most Indians on this site have difficulty with reality.

The feudal system gets such a terrible rap because people focus on its practical effects, deliberately ignoring its ideal form. In its ideal form it is largely indistinguishable from notions of trusteeship, or noblesse oblige.

Gandhi, in his early days particularly, himself was not above thinking along those lines (another hammer for some of my friends to use against the old man :)).

#342 Posted by ajeya,

Abey ab bhag yahan sey .... come up with non-bloggers next time.

#340 Posted by dost_mittar,

The grinding poverty is also less visible, maybe because a feudal system, with all its faults, is more paternalistic and not as devoid of human bonds.

That reminds me of the travelogue you wrote about your visit to Pakistan and visit to a feudal household. It is true what you say.

The feudal, regardless of how he is condemned for mere slogan mongering, is responsible for the upkeep of his villagers. Not only their daily meals or shelter over their heads, but also the marriage expenses of their daughters and gainful employment of their sons.

Unless the State can take on that responsibility, the Feudal will and should remain.

#339 Posted by zeemax

[Ask any Lahori here if that's true ... idiot. Stop quoting bloggers. Or, come up with a better source. ]

The point, pedophile-worshippinh m'therfukker, is that you said the following:

"This is neither Islamabad nor Lahore. More like some refugee shanty towns in NWFP or baluchistan if it is Pakistan at all. "

How does is feel like to eat your words, goatbrain?

anil ji, and sri

To be fair to tahmed32, he responded positively in #322. The issue of different political/social conditions creating very different experiences (and hence conclusions) has not been much discussed before. So please give tahmed32 sahib an opportunity to offer a considered opinion.

arjun#235:

"What progress?"

Sorry, didn't get to you earlier. Was busy with "ghar-grahsthi".

I don't think that any Pakistani would dispute that India has made good progress on industrial front in the last 10-15 years while Pakistan has been busy fighting some more severe battles. But still it has been growing at 7 % and more despite all the challenges. Mr Madani has pointed out some accomplishments in his own inimitable style. Pakistan's automotive industry is picking up too. In terms of the use of telecommunications, Pakistan, I believe, is ahead of India. Its TV industry too is expanding fast. And the Pak BPO industry is finally being recognised, though it is nowhere near Indian accomplishment in this field.

But Pakistan is doing as good a job as India, if not better, in providing roti-kapada-makaan to the aam aadmi. Pakistani cities too have their katchi abaadis but, from what I have read, they are not nearly as wretched as Indian slums. This is even more remarkable once you factor in the fact that Pakistan has been urbanising faster than India and therefore had a greater task of absorbing rural migrants. The grinding poverty is also less visible, maybe because a feudal system, with all its faults, is more paternalistic and not as devoid of human bonds as the heartlessness shown to the losers in the capitalist system.

#337 Posted by ajeya_ch'tya

65% of people in La Whore live in slums according to this website: http://www.mhdev.homestead.com/index.html.

Ask any Lahori here if that's true ... idiot. Stop quoting bloggers. Or, come up with a better source.

#336 Posted by ajeya,

Ch'tya ... First one is temporary structures by land grabbers. Is it a slum with just a few structure on perhaps an acre with noone in view?

Machar Colony is not a slum. Poor, yes, but not the bombay type of slum. All civic amenities are available in it.

Re the pictures of the 'Children of the Slum', the blogger is calling them that. They're only poor.

The ferris wheel is on a drain construction site, not a slum at all. Look closely ... moron.

The child collecting garbage is a scavenger. That's what poor afghan reugees do ... idiot.

Get it m'fkker?

#335 Posted by zeemax

[Masadi ... you and many others (i.e. the bharti defenders) are making the same mistake. Look at the scale:

The crisis is well illustrated by a visit to one of the many slums that dominate the scene in India’s commercial capital, Mumbai. Almost half of its 12 million people live in slums ..

That's 6 million slum dwellers, equal to the entire population of Lahore, in Bombay alone.]

India has a higher population than Pakistan, m'therfukker.

65% of people in La Whore live in slums according to this website: http://www.mhdev.homestead.com/index.html.

In Mumbai, a MUCH smaller proportion of people live in slums.

Go drink some camel cola. That will clear your brain.

#328 Posted by zeemax

[Ch'tya ... give me the source. Not photo bucket. The news source. You know what I mean? Just like I did. Get it?

This is neither Islamabad nor Lahore. More like some refugee shanty towns in NWFP or baluchistan if it is Pakistan at all. ]


Next time try googling in between breaks from reading the pedophile-manual, m'therfukkr.

http://pakistaniat.com/2007/02/28/visit-islamabad-pakistan-trave logue-margalla-city-capital-traffic-manners-cars-shanties-slum-sweepers/

http ://www.neatorama.com/2006/04/06/home-made-ferris-wheel-in-a-karachi-slum/

htt p://www.redbubble.com/people/Jake/works/visual.atom

http://www.mhdev.homestea d.com/index.html

#334 Posted by masadi,

Masadi ... you and many others (i.e. the bharti defenders) are making the same mistake. Look at the scale:

The crisis is well illustrated by a visit to one of the many slums that dominate the scene in India’s commercial capital, Mumbai. Almost half of its 12 million people live in slums ..

That's 6 million slum dwellers, equal to the entire population of Lahore, in Bombay alone.

#330, homelessness is a big problem in the US as well as European countries,ghettos and housing projects are little different than shantytowns, and they exist in rich the rich "European" countries as well.... That such problems exist in a rich country like the US says a lot about its socio-economic system, if the US had a dependant economic system like Pakitan's, together with an elite like they do, you'd see similar shanty towns, even though the ones that exist today are hardly any better...

#332 Posted by aslam644,

You missed the point. Why else do you think they're (hindus) all scampering over to Chowk and feeling insecure over the goings on in Pakistan?

Sri & anil
I am afraid what you are seeing in India today its just a tip of a iceberg, there is a real anger brewing in the muslim community because of injustices I suggest you watch channel 4 dispatches. There are a lot of angry young muslim men India.

As one muslim put it they discriminated against us in jobs before but now they are destroying our mosques and police is killing us.

#303

Sri:

You have written a very factual post. People like Tahmed Sahib fail to understand the difference that you talk about, and then build prejudices rather than address the root causes.

there are shanty towns in nearly every city in pakistan, its really shame that we can't provide decent housing for all, while the europeans had some sort of social housing for every one over hundred years ago.

... I mean I know you spent the entire afternoon googling ... but gimme the source.... that'll take some more googling.

#324 Posted by ajeya,

Ch'tya ... give me the source. Not photo bucket. The news source. You know what I mean? Just like I did. Get it?

This is neither Islamabad nor Lahore. More like some refugee shanty towns in NWFP or baluchistan if it is Pakistan at all.

Look at the moron. He quotes in #319:

The caption under the photo:

ISLAMABAD - March 11: A road in Hassanabdal that has been partially swept away after the recent rains.—Dawn

So a road swept away by rains is the same as Bombay slums.

What's the point of this photo war ?

Disregrad photo #4.

for Zeemax, Mantolives:

Trust Pakis to bring up the plight of the poor in India to try and put down India. But guess what - a HUGE percentage of those slum dwellers are MUSLIMS!

Here are a few pictures of slums in Pakiland. Enjoy!


Islamabad:



link:http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h241/adilnajam/Islamabad-31.jpg


Islamabad:



link:http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h241/adilnajam/Islamabad-30.jpg



link:http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h241/adilnajam/Islamabad-29.jpg

Islamabad:



link:http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h241/adilnajam/Islamabad-35.jpg





Karachi:


Here's the link: http://www.redbubble.com/rbimages/feed_thumbnail/print732.jpg?

Karachi:


Here's the Link: http://www.neatorama.com/images/2006-04/pakistan-slum.jpg


Lahore:(This child collects refuse items.from garbage dumps.)



link:http://www.mhdev.homestead.com/files/garbageGirlPic.jpg


Lahore:L ahore's slums have steadily expanded and now cover over 65% of the poulation.A whole new generation is growing up in locations which offer litle formal supply of even basic essentials such as potable water, power, sewarage and garbage disposal.



link:http://www.mhdev.homestead.com/files/dirtyVillage.jpg



Lahore:




link:http://www.mhdev.homestead.com/files/Dityvillage2.jpg

MantoLives,

This monkey is just stupid. Forgive him. He doesn't know the difference between Hasan Abdal (which is a centuries old small town) and Islamabad, let alone the difference between a bombay type slum and what is just poor municipal maintenance in some small neighbourhoods.

#303 sri: I can see yours is an honest post (e.g. in a departure from common practice on chowk, you actually provide straight response when you acknowledge Yes I did grow up in the primitive culture of clashes between segregated neighborhoods of Hyderabad old city. I must say my young mind had quite a few experiences as I was growing up...).

So, responding to your post calls for an equally honest and thoughtful response, rather than a quick rejoinder. I cant do that right now (have some things to attend to), but will get back in due course. Till then, wishing you the best.

http://www.hassanabdal.com/

HASSAN ABDAL my dear friend is a CITY 3 hours away from Islamabad.

Just because the REPORT is FILED in Islamabad doesn't make it Islamabad.

The caption under the photo:

ISLAMABAD - March 11: A road in Hassanabdal that has been partially swept away after the recent rains.—Dawn

The newspaper cud be dated 12th March 2007.

See the bold letters 'ISLAMABAD'.

it used to be white brits weren't interested in becoming doctors because of night shift,now they are turning they back on science, while rest of the world is expanding science departments, brits doing the opposite, how stupid is that?.

"Ministers failing to halt tide of university science closures


· MPs say government lacks levers to stop shutdowns
· Committee pins blame on internal education market

Matthew Taylor, education correspondent
Thursday May 4, 2006
The Guardian
The government is failing to stop leading universities shutting down departments crucial to scientific research, according to an influential group of MPs. Members of the Commons science and technology committee said that the government had "no effective lever" to stop departments scrapping expensive science courses because of the internal market created by ministers.
Phil Willis, the committee's chairman, said: "This is the logical outcome of introducing a market in higher education. It is not the fault of the market but it is having a disastrous effect on the provision of science." The report follows a string of department closures at Exeter, King's College London, Queen Mary London and Swansea and comes on the day that Sussex University holds crucial discussions on the future of its chemistry provision.
Mr Willis said: "The government rightly recognises the need to protect the provision of science, technology, engineering and mathematics (Stem) subjects but by leaving the autonomy of universities unfettered, while pursuing a market-driven education policy, it has left itself with no credible way of doing so." The report criticised the Higher Education Funding Council (Hefce) which, it said, had insufficient powers to intervene. Two years ago the then education secretary Charles Clarke asked Hefce to draw up a list of strategically important subjects and asked it to prevent more universities closing their science departments.
But Mr Willis said the moves had failed. "The government rightly recognises the need to protect the provision of Stem subjects but by leaving the autonomy of universities unfettered ... it has left itself with no credible way of doing so," he said. The report also criticised the proposed closure of Sussex's chemistry department, saying that senior management dealt with a "seriously flawed" process "particularly ineptly". Last night Sussex University said it accepted it should have alerted Hefce to its plans earlier but the committee had failed to take a " dispassionate view of the real difficulties which universities faced".

Folio,

Don't lie yaar. Just tell us where in isloo that is... because I know it isn't from Isloo. Anyone who knows Isloo knows that this cannot be from Isloo.

You might be confusing Isloo with Pindi...

Dawn has a pop-up window for images. Do u have URL link for them?

GO check the newspaper.

My friend... I have friends over from these places... and to them Islamabad still defies Subcontinental logic of planned cities.

I note that you don't have a link and you are trying to pass off a pic that is not from Isloo...It is quite simple really ... you name the Sector where this from...

I am trying to think if this could be from the Francis Colony of sweepers in F 7/4 ... but even that doesn't have the narrow pathway and the auto-rickshaw...

It's New Delhi apart from Chandigarh, Gandhinagar and Jamshedpur, which are planned cities. CU later.

Dear Bhra,

U better visit chandigarh, Gandhinagar or Jamshedpur. They too are planned cities...look much like Isloo.

U know Dawn has a pop up window 4 pix. There cant be a link. Let some fellow Pakistanis conform this 4 u.

CU later. Bye.

Pl do write on this article. Best Wishes.

PS: Had you said Karachi or Lahore... it would be believable... those are old cities with ill-planned areas.

But Islamabad is something that is quite beyond the imagination of the people of subcontinent who haven't seen it.

A proud Lahori like me has had his ego shattered by looking at how well the city is kept by CDA...

Folio mian,

This picture is NOT from Islamabad. I hope you will produce the original link...

I can assure you that Islamabad has NO place that looks like that. The entire city is made on GRID... so it would be very easy to determine where this is...

So either you are lying (which is the case given your track record) or you are just ignorant.

This pix is from Dawn. It's less than 2 moths old picture.

Btw, u are are a rich guy. U dont go to these poor areas.
I didnt invent this pix.

We better talk abt the article.

One evidence is the existence of Quingi rickshaw which is banned in Islamabad.

Islamabad was based on a Greek architect's master plan which kept greenery to concrete ratio at 60-40.

The city itself did not become operational till the late 1970s... thus having such small pathway is virtually impossible in Islamabad.

Folio,

Could you point out where exactly in Islamabad that place is... because it certainly doesn't look like the Islamabad I live and work in... and I have seen almost every part of Islamabad.

Dear Zeemax,

Open defacation may indeed end in India and elsewhere some day.

However, please do not lose heart – there is ONE spot where it will never end.

Right here on chowk, as long as you retain your ability to post! :)

Never mind the stench the others feel.

Give it another push, my dear! You can produce in such large volumes.

Btw, this is not water but sewage on roads....& Pakistan with their imaginary purity in thin air can live with this sewage on roads..

A true .....PAK-i-stan

b4 we revert

B4 revert to the original discussion on the topic lets have something 4 Zeemax & Co.


Karachi and Islamabad.

(These are illustrative pix but not exhaustive).

Re: # 253

Wow! So I mentioned Beslan incident and it got your panties up in a knot ? Is there any factual thing that you dispute about Beslan? or is your problem with me mentioning Beslan and Koran in one sentence ?

"you wont find western scholars and statesmen demonizing Islam the way indians do every day on chowk."

Western people, my dear friend, didn't live with Muslims in their midst creating nuisance in their neighborhoods for decades. They didn't live with muslims blowing up their festival shoppers and local trains & buses every now and then. They didn't have to contend with people who self isolate themselves and who demand an entirely seperate legal system just on religious grounds. Demand, demand, demand or else start a seccessionist war. But times are changing my friend. If my good American friend/colleague is to be believed, the hatred developing in their hearts is a very familiar note to it. Also, if you have any sense of objective thinking, take a look at UK. The difference between Hindus and Muslims in UK is startling in terms of not being a prick to the rest of their fellow citizens. We all know what the famous curse word of white Britons is.... inspite of... you know.. the "fair and lovely" Pakistanis.


"thus betraying the primitive culture that you grew up in"

Yes I did grow up in the primitive culture of clashes between segregated neighborhoods of Hyderabad old city. I must say my young mind had quite a few experiences as I was growing up...

"and which university degress and your precious US visas are not enough to change"

I abondoned belief in stupidity (also called religion) long ago. So you are dead wrong on your presumption that I spoke bad about Islam only because I am a Hindu.

"Your spirit, my friend, is that of too many of your spiteful little countrymen who visit chowk."

You seem to be holding the view that Indians hate Islam just for no reason. Let me ask you a question. What is more hateful .... people blowing up their fellow citizens in buses, trains and markets for well over a decade ? or people who recognize and speak out about the real source of problem ..i.e., strict adherence to a murder manual (as evidenced by the ACTIONS of people said to be adhering to the said manual )? By god man... just look at the conflicts around the world. Either everybody else is wrong or the Muslims who are fighting everybody else are wrong ? so which one is it ?

It is no exagerration when I say I did read books written by gods. After all, according to those gods, it is possible for a man to fly like a bird, cure diseases like magic, travel to the heavens, harness energy greater than what is contained in himself, etc. May be it is time for humans to realize that and read more of those kinds of books.

#300 Posted by zeemax on August 5, 2007 12:11:41 am


inbred retard: are more pakis killing pakis? is the paki army fighting it's erstwhile jihadi allies? are more suicide bombers blowing themselves up in the land of the pure? are the tribals going to get bombed more or less?

India shining? Heck no.

India Squatting? ... Yes.

That's a better slogan.

Will open defecation end by 2012?
The short answer appears to be no. Some 4,959 villages have bagged the Nirmal Gram Puraskar (clean village prize) so far, for having flush toilets in every household and school. But there is a flip side of this otherwise incredible script.

Sudhirendar Sharma probes the reality.

26 July 2007 - Will history be created in 2012? Will the countryside be free of open defecation over the next five years? Does doubling of rural sanitation coverage from a humiliating low of 22 per cent to an all time high of 44 per cent in the recent past confirms such claim? Rural Development Minister Raghuvansh Prasad Singh is not making romantic foray into rewriting history but is coming to terms with his long held view that a toilet or lack of it is the indicator of country's health, not the raging bull at the stock markets. The Total Sanitation Campaign launched by Singh's ministry has stretched into the last of 597 districts to turn the rural landscape free from squatting.

Not exactly Indian Idol but there is prize for villages singing chorus against open defecation. Till this year, some 4,959 villages had bagged Nirmal Gram Puraskar (NGP), a clean village prize, for having flush toilets in every household and school. Ranging from Rs.2 lakh for the smallest village to Rs.50 lakh for the biggest district, the award has seemingly given fillip to the subsidy-driven toilet construction program as villages compete to gain a rare recognition. The officials at the ministry are upbeat about the government’s current campaign that has not only shown results but has generated enthusiasm amongst rural households for toilets.

Toilet adoption is not a linear function of affordable technology, cash incentive and public recognition.

The flip side of this otherwise incredible script is that despite millions of toilets having been built, hundreds of millions of rural people still defecate in the open every day. Else, how could one witness scores of bare bottoms along the rail tracks doing what they must on an early morning? To add insult to injury, reports indicate that a significant number of people in the awarded villages are reverting to the age-old habit, adding weight to Nobel Laureate V S Naipaul’s oft quoted view that 'most Indians suffer from claustrophobia once inside an enclosed toilet’ and to demonstrate the fact that sanitation is more than just doling out subsidy to build toilets.

A recent e-discussion on 'solutions exchange', an interactive electronic platform set up by the UNDP, has made three startling revelations. First, the emphasis of the sanitation campaign has been more on achieving targets than on transforming behaviour. Second, the focus is on multiplying the number of toilets than socio-engineering of the closet into peoples' lives. Third, the award has helped officials coerce people into constructing toilets without being explained the reason for doing so. No wonder, the campaign considers targets significant than encouraging and acknowledging exemplary show of community-driven innovations in toilet adoption.

The sheer focus on constructing toilets is seemingly the root cause of the problem! Government's support, in the form of differential cash subsidy to match poverty groupings, is grossly inadequate for building the entire structure. Not only does the subsidy, ranging anywhere from Rs.900 to Rs.1500, bring class confrontation at the village level to the fore, it warrants an equal or more contribution from the user to complete the toilet construction. No surprise, therefore, a large number of incomplete toilets abound in rural areas. Ironically, restricting user's choice to a single toilet design also limits its widespread adoption.

Undoubtedly, the idea of a toilet cannot be ignored but it must also be understood that cash subsidy alone cannot trigger toilet adoption. Had that been the case, prosperous states like Punjab and Haryana would have long achieved freedom from squatting. Clearly, toilet adoption is not a linear function of affordable technology, cash incentive and public recognition. Social scientists at the University of California at Los Angeles are examining the factors behind the society’s 'collective blindness about the practice of open defecation and their reluctance to adopt change'. The research findings, available later this year, will also examine the reasons for a toilet to be low on priority in the household shopping list.

Misplaced policy emphasis has led to the belief that defecation within the privy of a closet is the only solution. Sheltering women from ignominy is added to support the argument. Yet, there are a number of instances where women shy away from using a toilet. The gender dimension of sanitation is often limited to engaging the other half in the campaign; women's specific needs rarely get factored into the toilet design. Else, how could the toilet design be gender-blind to the fact that women spend three times more in toilet than men? Unlike in cities where public toilets for men and women have distinct designs, public toilet designs for rural areas are unisex in nature.

Increasing sanitation coverage in rural areas may need an out-of-box thinking. Building toilets is just one half of the battle, the other half is to make people use them. The numbers of villages winning Nirmal Gram Puraskar may seem impressive, only if uncovered villages are not taken into count. Some 5,000 villages winning the award leave a staggering 595,000 villages waiting for similar recognition! Should the vast majority of uncovered villages be ridiculed, thereby applying humiliation to opening up new, creative possibilities of bringing about change?

Sociologists contend that humiliation is fundamentally an experience, which questions one's perceived assumptions about oneself. Unless people start questioning their beliefs and practices, engineering change through toilets and targets may remain a dream. When Mahatma Gandhi insisted that anyone joining his ashrams had to first clean toilets, he was striking at the heart of the compact of humiliation. ⊕

Sudhirendar Sharma
26 Jul 2007

Sudhirendar Sharma is a development expert at the Delhi-based The Ecological Foundation.

#298 Posted by arjun2,

Abey ch'tya cut/paste, ask a simple question. Is the Jihadi movement stronger or weaker after Lal Masjid?

But you're just a moron so you will keep cutting/pasting.

#297 Posted by zeemax on August 5, 2007 12:05:26 am

yeah...they've prevailed...they've made it to allah's strip club to be handed out as 72 virgins to the dead jihadis..quite an achievement...

with mushy bending over and being forced to bomb his people, there's an ever increasing demand for virgins...100 dead ninja chix can only go so far..

HAHAHA...





Tougher Stance on Pakistan Took Months
U.S. Believes Its Harsher Tone Got Musharraf Moving Against Terrorists

By Karen DeYoung and Joby Warrick
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, August 5, 2007; A01

Last September, when Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf visited the White House to tout a controversial plan for driving al-Qaeda from his country, President Bush responded at a joint news conference with a trademark profession of faith. When Musharraf "looks me in the eye" and says there "won't be a Taliban and there won't be an al-Qaeda, I believe him," Bush said.

Ten months later, the administration's top terrorism official gave reporters a starkly different view of that plan, declaring that al-Qaeda had established a safe haven inside the very country that Bush had hailed as a "strong partner" in the war on terrorism. Musharraf's anti-terrorism plan "hasn't worked for Pakistan. It hasn't worked for the United States," Frances Fragos Townsend, White House homeland security adviser, said in late July.

The change in the administration's public tone came after months of internal U.S. discussion and quiet diplomacy to pressure a key ally into taking direct action against what analysts say was a newly assertive al-Qaeda rebuilding a stronghold to plan attacks against Western targets -- a disconcerting replay of the period before Sept. 11, 2001.

As classified reports throughout the past year showed al-Qaeda and Taliban fighters opening new training camps and moving operatives and money across the Afghan border, the White House dispatched a stream of high-powered officials to Islamabad to pressure a reluctant Musharraf into changing course.

When the diplomatic campaign finally failed, the administration took a more dramatic step. After years of professing uncertainty about the whereabouts of al-Qaeda's commanders, it publicly declared in excerpts of a new National Intelligence Estimate what analysts had long believed: The terrorist group had ensconced itself in a remote mountain enclave ostensibly under Pakistani control. In late spring, drafts of that document were deliberately altered to reveal this conclusion, a move that "changed the complexion" of the nearly finished report, a senior intelligence official familiar with the revisions said.

The July 17 U.S. claim sparked outrage in Islamabad but helped yield the result that U.S. officials sought. Musharraf abandoned his truce with tribal leaders and on July 19 formally launched a military offensive aimed at breaking the terrorists' grip on the frontier provinces.

The events leading to the public confrontation with Pakistan -- including the alarming evidence of al-Qaeda and Taliban retrenchment in northern Pakistan -- were described in new detail by more than a half-dozen senior administration and intelligence officials. None would talk about the subject on the record, citing the sensitivity of the bilateral relationship and the political fallout from the intelligence assessment.

Pakistani officials say the change in tactics had nothing to do with U.S. pressure, and they insist that Musharraf's plan for using tribal militias to drive out al-Qaeda remains viable. "We are as committed to defeating terrorism as the United States is, because the threat to us is far greater," Mahmud Ali Durrani, Pakistan's ambassador in Washington, said in an interview.

But U.S. officials say Musharraf's new offensive is already having a more tangible impact than months of diplomacy and subtle pressure on tribal chieftains and mullahs in remote villages. After a spike in terrorists' cross-border raids into Afghanistan over the past year -- including a doubling of the number of attacks in June compared with the previous year -- violence along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border leveled off last month.

Maj. Gen. David Rodriguez, commander of U.S. conventional forces in Afghanistan, recently linked that progress to the start of the Pakistani offensive. Speaking to reporters in Kabul, Rodriguez also said that U.S. and Pakistani forces were doing a better job of sharing intelligence and coordinating their response to Taliban attacks, adding that the United States saw no need to deploy its forces on the Pakistani side of the border.

"They're a sovereign country," he said, "and they're doing a military operation now to provide better security there."
An Increase in Al-Qaeda Activity

The stream of high-powered visitors who flew from Washington to Islamabad early this year bore no good news for Musharraf. Starting with Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates on Feb. 12, and followed closely by Vice President Cheney and others, the Americans showed Musharraf sensitive intelligence revealing a substantial increase in al-Qaeda activity in the country's west.

Cheney and the other visitors warned Musharraf that his deal with the region's largely autonomous tribal chiefs months earlier had broken down. Under the agreement, Musharraf promised economic and military aid to the tribes and pledged to pull back Pakistani troops if local leaders kept al-Qaeda and other foreign fighters out.

The Bush administration was initially optimistic about the accord, endorsing in particular the idea of empowering local forces to fight terrorists. But by early this year, U.S. analysts had collected a mountain of evidence showing that the initiative had backfired.

Intelligence gleaned from captured Taliban fighters, communications intercepts and overhead surveillance showed that the terrorists had exploited the vacuum created by departing Pakistani troops. Using a combination of bribes and intimidation, foreign fighters had secured the protection of tribal leaders and had begun boldly rebuilding a network largely dismantled during the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan.

Taliban militants had renewed the smuggling of weapons and explosives for attacks inside Afghanistan. Al-Qaeda members were traveling to and from the region by air, using Pakistani airports, and over land through Central Asia, Afghanistan and Iran, reports showed.

Al-Qaeda's expanding infrastructure in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas was concentrated in a region known as North Waziristan, bordering Afghanistan. But the groups were more mobile and their training camps smaller than in the period before 2001. "These people adapt to the measures that the Pakistanis and we have pushed against them: how they congregate, how they train, how they move money," one official said.

The U.S. analysts also concluded that Osama bin Laden and his deputy, Ayman al-Zawahiri, had successfully replaced upper-level officials and lieutenants that U.S. and allied forces had captured or killed over the years. Many were fighters from Afghanistan in the 1980s and 1990s who had returned to bin Laden's side. They included Uzbeks and other Central Asians, as well as Arabs.

Al-Qaeda's bench strength, the analysts realized, was not deep, but it was very wide. Its new lieutenants were assigned regional responsibilities across the world and were charged with planning operations, often a year to a year and a half in advance. They were "recruiting like mad, and training," one intelligence official said.
'Evaluating the Deal'

The intelligence was an eye-opener for Musharraf, though he already sensed the deal was in trouble, said officials familiar with the meetings. But Musharraf did not promise a swift response. The Pakistani president said he was "evaluating the deal" and "making adjustments," but cautiously: There were tribal and ethnic sensitivities to consider, and the risk of further army deaths, beyond the hundreds killed in the tribal areas in recent years.

Musharraf also had a complaint of his own: His leverage over the tribal militants had slipped because of the U.S.-led war in Iraq. Foreign fear of the might of the U.S. military, felt throughout the Muslim world immediately after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, was dissipating as U.S. troops became increasingly bogged down in Iraq. Now, he said, tribal leaders who had once cooperated with Musharraf because of his alliance with the Americans saw little reason to be afraid.

Neither U.S. nor Pakistani officials raised their voices. "They were very respectful," one U.S. official said. "It was just: 'Here's the information. Let's talk and see how we can move forward.' "

But internally, the Bush administration was unsure how much pressure to apply and, indeed, how useful an ally Musharraf had turned out to be.

On one side were U.S. diplomats and policymakers, particularly at the White House, who said Musharraf's commitment to the fight is genuine. While his democratic credentials are less than ideal -- the career army general came to power in a military coup -- he increased civil freedoms and brought economic reforms that allowed Pakistan's middle and professional classes to flourish, his U.S. supporters argued. Without the general, they worried, the crucial U.S.-Pakistan partnership could collapse.

"To say we've been supporting Musharraf is simplistic," said Xenia Dormandy, who recently left a position as the National Security Council's director for South Asia. "Musharraf has spent six years walking a fine line between a rock and a hard place. Could we push him more? You won't know the answer until you've pushed him too hard and he collapses."

On the other side were intelligence and military officials increasingly frustrated by what they viewed as Pakistan's half-hearted effort in the fight against terrorism. They preferred using a hammer instead of kid gloves in Islamabad, arguing that Musharraf -- with a diverse and fractured opposition -- was politically strong enough to weather the fallout from taking a more aggressive stance.

The difference of views was mostly about tactics, since U.S. diplomats and intelligence specialists both worried that the next Pakistani leader will be less cooperative. "He's not perfect," one defense official said. "But we have to get away from the view that other countries need to see the world exactly as we do."

Musharraf's turnaround in the end was pushed along by his own worries that conservative Muslims posed a new domestic threat, U.S. intelligence specialists said. A spate of terrorist bombings around the country coincided with the occupation by student militants of the Red Mosque in the capital, and Musharraf -- partly to shore up his support within the army -- decided to crack down.

In the tribal areas, Musharraf deployed two additional brigades, bringing the number of troops in the region to 100,000. In preparation for entering tribal villages, the troops have reoccupied abandoned checkpoints and dug trenches, an administration official said. In just more than one week of conflict, more than 200 Pakistani troops have been killed, U.S. officials said.

Pakistan continues to assert that the tribal agreement was the correct approach, however, and its leaders still hope to salvage portions of the pact.

As a long-term strategy, it remains important to try to win over the people of the tribal areas, and for that "you need a number of carrots as well as sticks," said Durrani, the ambassador.

Durrani said Pakistani intelligence officials are not convinced that al-Qaeda's Pakistan operations are as elaborate as U.S. experts believe. "We say there are no safe havens," he said. "Maybe there are al-Qaeda people hiding in caves or running for their lives, but they aren't operating in the open because they can't."

Durrani contends that whatever al-Qaeda elements do exist in Pakistan will soon be driven out or rendered ineffective.

U.S. officials who have tracked terrorists' movements in Pakistan say they are closely monitoring the fresh deployments of Pakistani troops to see what impact they will have. "The presence of new divisions has made the locals nervous, so the level of activity is down," one U.S. defense official said. "But unless the Pakistanis remain active, this may just be a lull."

Staff writer Walter Pincus contributed to this report.

#294 Posted by arjun2,

monkey ch'tya, have they prevailed or not?

roses are red, violets are blue
the jihadis you created, are now killing you