Science and the Islamic world --- The quest for rapprochement

tahmed, which world do you live in,really? Pakistan is not all that strategic to the well being of India. Pakistan, when all said and done, is inconsequential to the development and rise of India. It is a mere blip on the radar screen. Nuclear weapon or no nuclear weapon. Wait for the next messiah..

Re:laddu#459
"The day muslims allows say a Swami Narayan Temple to be built in Pakistan and allots land for that I would believe that Pakistani state has got over the Quranic hatred and phobia of idolators"

Laddu, if I am not mistaken there is already a fairly large Swami Narayan Temple in Karachi. Karachiites may please confirm the same.

Re: # 460

How many Swami Narayan temples were built after independence in Pakistan?

tahmed saheb,

As a practicing idolator I have no fear of muslims like you or perhaps even Asadi because you guys do not believe in the genocidal agendas of Quran unlike some like Zeemax or UrsTruly.
I am sure the wahabis and other mullah followers consider you guys as apostates, mushriqoons etc. etc. because you would refuse to bear any hatred towards me because of my idolatory.
If you believe that most of the Pakistanis are ok with idolators like me then I would love to see some idols and temples constructed in Pakistan.

The day muslims allows say a Swami Narayan Temple to be built in Pakistan and allots land for that I would believe that Pakistani state has got over the Quranic hatred and phobia of idolators .

ajeya, re. #440 & #441

That the Pakistani establishment has tried to emphasise the Muslim's differentness from Hindus in order to, rightly or wrongly, justify the TNT, and that this differentness has always taken the shape of a discourse of Muslim/Islamic superiority, is no secret.

What is also in the open, however, is that there are many voices within Pakistan, Muslim too, I assure you, that speak out against such wanton distortion of history and the use of hatred and xenophobia as tools for solidarity-building.

To what extent this is intrinsically a religiously-driven agenda, as opposed to a a political one, is another question. But judging from the reports of incredible warmth shown by Pakistani hosts to their Indian visitors during the recent Cricket tours, and from the idolizing of Indian movie stars -- Muslim, Hindu and Christin alike -- one would not be amiss in suggesting that the experiment has not exactly been a rousing success.

So breathe a little easy, my friend... the average Muslim is not out to dimmhiize you these days.

masadi in #447: "The missionary and the natives during the colonial era and for those of us who have studied in the US we are well aware of the new form of that when the CCC- Campus Crusade for Christ targets and tries to bribe International Students towards their "salvation"... "

This, after writing this in #421:
"But once you cross the limit of encroaching on other people's freedom and privacy as many Christian missionaries do, then you certainly would have crossed the line,... [emphasis added]

Need I say more? Or would I risk being accused of being on the payroll of the evil CCC, going around bribing innocent non-believers, thus depriving them of their freedom and privacy!?

laddu #436 Thanks for the kind words. Obviously your knowledge of the "muslim psyche" is based on what you have ben told, and it is easily contradicted by facts that I think you should examine for yourself. I present a few below:

1. The warm welcome given to Indians visiting Pakistan. This came as a surprise to many Indians who visited Pakistan in large numbers a couple of years ago to watch the test matches. Cab drivers refused to accept payment for their services, crowds applauded Indian players when they scored (and the only person booed in Lahore was a local politician), Indians reported being treated in a more friendly and respectful manner by Pakistani police than their own Indian police ever did. No one, not even Islamist parties, attacked any of the thousands of Indians (or idol-worshippers, as you have been referring to yourself) who came to Pakistan then. Sikhs visiting Pakistan for far longer have always known this basic friendly nature of the average Pakistani.

2. Indians have every practical reason to seek good relations with Pakistan - militarily, Pakistan has the means to cause a nuclear holocaust in the sub-continent if it came to an existential threat; strategically, India has no choice but to have good relations Pakistan in order to establish links of its growing economy with the middle east (as in case of the gas pipeline) and central asia (e.g. road trade with Afghanistan and even, later, with China via silk route); and to compete in the global marketplace, it is in the Indian interest to have the world see South Asia as a region of peace where investors need not fear future wars.

So, put two and two together - Pakistanis are not the bloodthirsty idol-breakers that individual like Jay Thakeray and Ajeya and so many others on chowk try to portray them (as did those from whom you got this impression before coming to chowk). They are normal people, struggling today to gain their freedom from a power-hungry general and his fascist allies.

Today is the time for Indians to stand up and be counted as being supporters of freedom for Pakistan, rather than to seek to demonize them by equating them with the worst of the fascists they are in facting struggling against. I have no doubt that Pakistanis will long remember who stood by them, and who stood aside and merely enjoyed their predicament, during these historic days in Pakistan.

Re: # 456

Tahmed Mian,

I have no quarrel with your geopolitical view of the sub continent. Magar taali do hath se bajti hai.

So it is okay to ask for support for freedom. But current situation is something the Pakistanis brought it upon themselves. Mind you I am not saying that muslims brought it upon themselves.

The mere act of partition underlined the fact that here was a group of people - followers of a religion who did not want to live with followers of another religion and wanted a separate homeland - mind you there was no plebisite held to determine if the common people really wanted this or was it power grab by a bunch of elites.

So Pakistan and pakistanis represent a group of people who did not want to live with all that constitutes Indians.

What kind of action/ response do you expect from persons when you tell them you do not like them? Hug you?

So a mere act of cab drivers giving free rides or building swami narayan temples does not address the key issue.

So logically, I do not see a solution to the problem you raise.

re. laddu various:
"My fore fathers were murdered just because they did not believe in the muslim point of view about a so called 'formless" god.

Ludds, Unless you're Sindhi, you can't even begin to make a case based on historical facts. Now, assuming you are Sindhi and are (legitimately) seeking compensation for Muhammed Bin Qasim's bloodletting when he conquered Sindh, you'd still be hardpressed to find Quranic sanction for that wholesale slaughter, or of Akbar's similar attempt at genocide on taking Chittorgarh.

-- unless, of course, you're also about to lay responsibility of Hitler's actions at the doorstep of the Vatican.

Re: # 455

Hey PM ji,

There are historical evidences in the form of confessions and boasting from official biographers of these genocidal devout muslims.
I do not want to burden this site with it. Much of it is gory and graphical enough to set the blood boiling of any idolator.
All that nonsense went all the way down till Vijayanagar kingdom. All in the name of Islam.
All that nonsense of muslims proudly killing, beheading, carrying back wives and small children as slaves in the name of Allah.
It is revolting!!!

Kaalchakra #446: no ideology eliminates individual-level variation, and that one single strategy may be best implemented in many different forms depending upon prevailing external conditions.

I agree with you, but I think instead of "ideology" you should use the term to "goals" and to "principles". A goal is what we ultimately seek, principles are what constrain the means we use to achieve those goals, whereas ideology is I think best described as being a "mindset" that one indivdiual or one group seeks to promote/impose as replacement for goals and principles.

"Goals" and "principles" are what unite humanity (e.g. the goals of scientific and economic advancement, law and order; or the principle of honesty). No one, not even the most powerful dictator, will dare to argue against them. And a focus on goals and principles liberate the individual and enable broad debate on strategies.

"Ideology" on the other hand is what divides one group from another ("Islamic Ideology", "Hindu Ideology", "Communist Ideology", "Nazi Ideology", "Neo-Con Ideology"), seek to enslave the individual. Ideology-focussed societies have ultimately been forced to shed their ideologies and join the rest of humanity (as in case of Nazism, then Communism, and neo-Cons being now on the wane in the US after six years of disastrous results).

That is why I am optimistic that, regardless of the hindu and muslim ideologues on chowk - the reality is that time is against them. BJP has already shown that it carries no magic solution, and no longer promotes hindu ideology (per my limited knowledge of India, of course) with the same fervor today as it did in the 1970's and 80's I think - it was forced to wake up to the reality, e.g., that Pakistan was no walkover in 1998 and switched its tune on India-Pakistan relations almost overnight. The same for islamic ideologues in Pakistan. While the military may find it conducive to promote islamic ideology in Pakistan (e.g. by naming missiles after looters like Ghauri, allowing lal masjid maulvis to impose their views on poor shopkeepers and women from unconnected families), the broad-based public support for the non-ideologue parties and the court system shows that Pakistanis see through it too.

Not a single conviction has taken place in the thousands of muslims killed and raped in bombay and gujrat. the idolators will also be given no peace and will be fought till the last muslim child is alive or the day of judgement which ever comes first.

#446 Posted by KaalChakra

[The point is, both sides could learn (and probably agree) a little more if neither left gaping holes in their arguments. And I genuinely believe at least some (definitely not all) on both sides are willing to listen (sometimes).]

Yes. This is why you are a closet-liberal. Because you are spouting the favorite 50-50 theory that liberals love so much - everybody is equally guilty - Christ, Muhammad, Buddha, Pol Pot, Hitler - everybody. And all ideologies equally valid - Naziism, Taoism, Christianity, Jainism - everything. Pol pot's victims would be alive today if they and Pol Pot's men were JUST willing to listen to each other.

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

#443 Posted by KaalChakra

[No Ajeya, weak arguments serve little purpose because they convince only those who are already convinced.]

So if his argument is wasted, why does that get you so bothered? There's no shortage of those here at Chowk.

I think the more important point is - what effect YOUR post had on the discussion.


[Here is another recent example.

X: Muslims (don't hesitate to) kill kaffirs.
Y: Muslims ruled for a thousand years and still left so many Hindus alive.

Both are very weak statements, justifiable, at best, only in light of each other. Nobody in the least understood the other's perspective.

What is the point of such 'discussions, ajeya?']

You could have ignored his "pointless" post like you ignore many others - couldn't you?

borivali,

In most cases one can instinctively oppose whatever Jyoti Punwani/Yoginder Sikand sort support and support what they oppose without running any risk of going wrong.

It is a matter of different interests. Ms Punwani and her type can go blow themselves and/or their neighbors up if they so desire.

Pervez Hoodbhoy
THANKYOU for the treatise.
I hope the Muslims find the soluion to their problems in the article. Blind Freddy should be able to find it.The female "theives of Baghdad" with Lathee 'religion' in their hands is a starting point, followed by a definition of a "scholar".
Rashid