Science and the Islamic world --- The quest for rapprochement

#32 Posted by iron_mask:

"why is the Islamic world disengaged from science and the process of creating new knowledge? "

In absolute terms this question means nothing. Joel Mokyr, Northwestern Univ., has been trying to answer the following:

"Why did the Europeans leap frog the Arabs and the Chinese?"

He asserts that it was the Reformation. You may enjoy some of his essays and books.

Re: # 31

intersting, question you have posed there GT. A naughty one as well.

from my little knowledge of maths - which is minimal and self taught - there are others here like yourself who are more qualified to answer...

Yes, upto a point what you say is corerct. The reason for the determinitic nature of the chaotic function is that there is an unerlying structure/order to it. The tent maps you have referred to are esentially iterative functions, and the nature of the ireration is dependent on the mu value. Take a typical low passs first order difference system

x(t+1)=x(t) + mu(x(t)-x(t-1))

This is fully understood, and most propoerties can be analysed well. Indeed this is also the basis for all hill climbing or sttepest descent type algorithms.

The tent functions are similar to this. A typical one has the following form





If the peak were slightly flatter, it would become a band pass, and indeed if the map was moved to the left it would become a low pass.

Thus the function for small values of mu is well known, and reasonably understood. For high values of mu you have slightly different behaviour. For even higher values you move into a zone which is not clear from a simple analysis, but nevertheless tractable and predictable. (I prefer predictability to deterministic).

Now why I said this was a naughty question is if we take x(t) to be an interact on chowk, then x(t+1) is often predictable (and yes deterministic i.e predictable with 100% certainty) given any mu (mu could be the article itself, the size of the brains etc). So eventhough Chowk is a chaotic system, there is a wonderful underlying structure to it, the effing spectral radius (the maxium one) is always less than 1, and hence converge rapidly.

Re: # 33

yeah, GT - this is a question which reminds me of the old staory about 3 blind men and the elephant? Would you not agree?

Re: # 34 (if the peak were slightly flatter - okay there could be discontinuties, or it could be smooth everywhere :C^n)

if smooth you have a band pass. The discontinuity makes it interesting.

#36 Posted by iron_mask

Don't you let the cat out of the box ... for then the state would be known ;-).

Small suggestion: Draw a 45 degree line through your graph. Let mu not equal to half (otherwise it is not interesting). You will see at most two points of intersection. Start from the 45 degree line and go up (or down) to the graph of the tent. From there go horizontally to the 45 degree line and repeat (this is the dynamics).

You will see (depending on your chosen mu) that your dynamics will either diverge from or converge to the intersections or you will be trapped in a square. None of this is chaotic dynamics. However, for some mu the dynamics will be none of the above, amongst this set of mus there will be some that exhibit chaos. But it is extremely unlikely that you will be able to get this mu if you are randomly choosing a mu (that is why it is of measure zero). Actually, even if you get this mu chaos will depend on where you are starting from.

yes GT. ! That is why I said dependeing on your choice of mu you can get different effects. hence my preffered term "predictability" as opposed to "deterministic".

See also #36 Thus the function for small values of mu is well known, and reasonably understood. For high values of mu you have slightly different behaviour. For even higher values you move into a zone which is not clear from a simple analysis, but nevertheless tractable and predictable. (I prefer predictability to deterministic).

The mu at which none of this happens, your:However, for some mu the dynamics will be none of the above, amongst this set of mus there will be some that exhibit chaos. is similar to singularity. In the tent function this point is often the point of discontinuity (mu at this point is an interesting value).

The cat has escaped, and it is you who have set it amongst thepiegeons!!!! ;)

#38 Posted by iron_mask

Self taught mathematics is way more fun/damental :) Keep it up. In the population of chowk interactors, you have empirically falsified the good doctor's claim.

You can use predictable but never confuse between probabilistic and deterministic systems .... this is where self taught dominates over the class room.

Professor Sahib:

A very good chronicle.

Somehow, the science has always been identified with a person; Einsteinian Physics, Newtonian Physics, Neil Bohr’s Postulates, etc. are just examples. I have never encountered rise or decline of science in Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, or Hindu countries. Individuals contributed to science, because science empowered individuals who possessed creative minds and commitment to contribute. Was it Neil Bohr or his contemporary in this rumor that he had to make the cross Atlantic journey sitting on by the bomb or something? Nothing deterred. The commitment to contribute and probity of mind to their causes is no less than those of misguided Lal Masjid students, in this case the area to contribute and probe is highly constrained. Therefore, value of such studies on decline in Islamic, for that matter Christian, etc. worlds is highly questionable. Empowering individuals, and un-restraining them is the key. The issue is how to not waste beautiful minds inside Lal Masjids or whatever else is in other religions.

Before your career in the academic world, and mine in the technology ventures enter their twilights, we will see a massive shift in paradigm regarding education, and more so science and technology education. Your alma mater MIT, and my alma mater HBS included are doing many things. MIT indeed is making all course material, class lectures not just from its faculties, but also from faculties of world’s finest institutions (IITs included) at no cost to anyone, anywhere and anytime. The process of creation, accumulation and distribution of knowledge piggybacked on the technology is riding a powerful horse that will cut through Islamic, Christian, Hindu etc. scenarios. Center of excellence will be connected to anyone who wants to use these centers.

Therefore, the most important gap to fill is the digital divide, instead of “... must be checked before the gulf widens further.” What you do at your university could be a great beginning? How many of your students whom you must have thought could have beaten MIT student, but could not be there? Making possible so that they may not need to be at MIT is important.

I have read all of your essays here, and wonder why professor sahib professes freedom, but why does he even imply questioning Lal Masjids. Shouldn't they have freedom? What will happen if the society were the judge on its merit? Need would be educating in competing thoughts, what is wrong, let it be.

Would it not be more important to define the quanta of knowledge that Pakistani society can absorb and build on? What are the constituents in these quanta of knowledge? So what if part of the message must include Lal Masjids message?

On your “A bloody clash of civilizations, should it actually transpire, will surely rank along with the two other most dangerous challenges to life on our planet—climate change and nuclear proliferation.” I recently attended an interesting discussion on global warming that centered on the fact that that technology has arrived and may be used to match many forces of nature. To me regressive thought in any society is a force of nature that needs to be countered.

Finally, Professor Sahib, your point that “A generally tolerant and pluralistic Islamic culture allowed Muslims, Christians, and Jews to create new works of art and science together....”, holds the key!!!

Now there are two more: Chinese and Indian to add. More the merrier according to me, I would like to see Persian, and Turkish rennaisance as well. This proliferation will only dilute dominance, therefore, nightmare of clash of civilization will only recede in future faster than the real-time.

" Only the exceptional individual is able to exercise such a mindset in a society in which absolute authority comes from above, questions are asked only with difficulty, the penalties for disbelief are severe, the intellect is denigrated, and a certainty exists that all answers are already known and must only be discovered."

Amazing analyses.

Well done !!

Two major reasons for the state of science -

1. Rise of Islamist politics where every thing is made to conform to Islamic theology.

2. End of disbelief and scepticism about world views and forced and political beliefs about world views. Even to the extent that some Arabic chuotya Mullah made a fatwa regarding the correctness of flat earth.

3. Lack of internal discussion about incorrect world view in Quran within muslim community.

It is like a community that refuses to question its antiquated dark age theology and tries to extoll its perversities.

#26 Posted by Urstruly

[I think, you are a sikh, not a hindu. because a baniya would know that the point I am trying to make is that comparing apples and oranges is unscietific and misleading, even though it makes great soundbites. ]

Who's the idiot - the one that's allegedly trying to make a point by making contradictory statements, or the one who calls him on it?

I think of all features of Islam, the worst is the FEAR it instills in the hearts of it's followers.

Dr. Hoodbhoy, like many of the intelligentsia in the Islamic world, is clearly afraid to state the truth in a straightforward manner - he has to approach it indirectly in all kinds of roundabout ways so as not to be labeled a traitor and murdered by one of the followers of the Religion of Peace.

Masadi wrote:

"There is no conflict here with the scientific methodology, as there is absolutley no conflict between religion and science, according to the Quran which invites people to use it to arrive at the truth, and then "after the fact" confirm the Quran's statements."

And people ask why there religion and science don't gel.

Re: # 44

" Quran which invites people to use it to arrive at the truth, and then "after the fact" confirm the Quran's statements"

Hey. As an idolator I have read Quran and examined the so called 'invitation'- it was hardly an invitation and more of a THREAT if I did not believe in what the book says about the rest of the world and itself.
It is a book that claims its own truth as if it is a logical truth of some axiomatic system.
Truth is always with reference to an external fact or state of affairs - Quran's self-validity is like rant of those psycho-s in the PAgalKhana who base the truthfulness of their claims on their hallucinations.

Sure, all those PAgals call themselves as "scientific" when they lay claim to the tuth of their hallucinations.

Actually, the main reason for the poor state of affairs in muslim nations are these Islamists who want to DAWA' their claims over the skeptic scientific community that relies on conjectures and refutations as a method to aceept a truth-claim.

Blind side

The learned professor has this time completely missed the plot. The so called early scientific achievements of islam was due to the work of others, those who continued with their christian and other traditions of scientific pursuit. As the islamic ideas and temperament took root in the society, the view that every thing is their in the book, the science declined. The so called golden age of islam is essentailly a period when the islamic ideology had not taken root, they were nominally ruled by the mulsims.

You can see the case in India, the moghul period was nominallan islamic rule, but there was nothing islamic in peoples way of thinking.

Now take the case of pakistan, in the last 60 years the real islamic thinking has taken root, the children of TNT are running the show and you all can see it.

The core of islam kills a scientific temperament, a capability for critical analysis and a belief that things can be changed.

Despite every evidence the YLH keep telling that hoodood ordinance is due to Zia. But refuses to accept that no subsequent ruler dared to change it, representing a wider acceptance of the hoodood. That is lack of scientifc temper by a nominally educated YLH.

Hence all of the statistics that Pervez quoted do not count, by no stretch of imagination can one say that YLH is scientifically trained. he has a piece of paper from the US, but the mind set of a TNT child.

It is this underlying core of isl;amic temper that makes teh doctors suicide bombers in London, because at the core they cannot evaluate their own actions, the medical degree is only a skill, not a scientific knowledge for them.

bravo, hoodbhoy (clapping Icon here).

The subject matter is weighty, in that it sits like a 1000000 ton gorilla on the shoulders, and is even worse than a bull in a china shop. A hornets nest (if you all can stick with the mix of metaphors etc here).

more laterz!

GT and Iron_mask,

you guys need your heads examined.

I agree with interact #32 upto a point.

the question which keeps whizzing in my brain is this - what is the connection between chaos and what PH says here?
can anyone explicate this to me.