Science and the Islamic world --- The quest for rapprochement

I haven't read this article yet, but the apparent redeeming feature at the very outset is that it has taken the silly mug of that retarded resident psychiatrist off the FP :)

Good article..figure bears repeating..




Pakistan set a world record by increasing funding for higher education and science by an immense 800% over the past five years.


That was more of an effort to play catch-up with India's IITs...didn't go so well, did it?




At Quaid-i-Azam University in Islamabad, where I teach,
Here, as in other Pakistani public universities, films, drama, and music are frowned on, and sometimes even physical attacks by student vigilantes who believe that such pursuits violate Islamic norms take place. The campus has three mosques with a fourth one planned, but no bookstore.


Nooooo!! Manto..say it ain't so...



Popular new Islamic cell-phone models now provide the exact GPS-based direction for Muslims to face while praying,


HAHA..abdul paki uses the great satan's satellites to tell them where mo kicked the bucket? the same satellites that guide the JDAMs?

Great article. I really appreciate the effort you put into this.

Arjun, you are correct in a lot of your criticism, but the way you criticize just gets more bandar tamasha happening. Sometimes I think folks like yourself and the echobooms and urst truly fight with each other so passionately, because in truth you just really want to sleep with each other :).

Regarding the article.

1. If us Muslims consider ourselves as a "block" rather then diverse cultures and nations, then we should really emulate the Jewish people. As oppressed as they have been. they have managed to excel and lead the world in many fields.

2. Otherwise, it should just drive down to the national level. And one Muslim nation will be the model for another.

3. Actually the fact that these nations identify themselves based on a religious identity is part of the problem. Europe progressed only after squashing the inquisitors. You do not see America or UK classifying themselves as Christian nations. Okay bad example. Let us use France, and Holland instead.

-ts

PH writes "Instead, let us seek to understand the state of science in the contemporary Islamic world. First, to the degree that available data allows, I will quantitatively assess the current state of science in Muslim countries. Then I will look at prevalent Muslim attitudes toward science, .... "

Once again, just like the other mass producers of articles (Gill and that other swine), this miserable fool, produces more garbage. Instead of wasting time with his article which seeks to discredit Islam by trying to discredit the effects of colonization (wonder how he arrives at that connection)by terming them Islamic socio-cultural tendencies even though the ignoramus does not understand what culture is and that the diverse culture(s) in the Muslim world have very little to do with Islam or the Quran.

Let me bust his science rat a tat. The doctor writes "First, to the degree that available data allows, I will quantitatively assess the current state of science"

For this purpose the fool uses papers published in professional journals as the criteria. Now in quantitative data analysis whenever you compare countires, you have to reduce them to a common base, a per capita or per 1000 population. No such effort is made by the doctor to try to equalize the base by stating papers published per 100 physicists or per 1000 physicists and so on. Doing that will show you the scientific output per resource available rather than the broad unequal so called "quantitative analysis" by this fool who parades as a savior of science in the Muslim world without knowing about either Muslims, or the world, or science. Ignorance atop ignorance....

"God is one! God is ABSOLUTE!" [Holy Quran]

It's difficult to see how one can initiate a quest for 'rapprochement' with divine edicts such as the above.

Science and religion are fundamentally opposed to each other. Religion demands absolutes. Science ignores them.

Muhammad Abu Bakr Zakariya Al-Razi (10th century), the greatest physician of all time (or at least for 700 years as per the Islamic Encyclopedia) aside from his monumental break throughs in the medical field, also rejected all prophets as fraudulent liars, rejected the 'ijaz' of the Quraan and labeled the Hadis (sahih bukhari etc.) for what they really are - a lengthy albeit glorified version of a 300 year old Chinese whisper.

Today even the kufar don't make such derogatory statements.

In the end, the only 'rapprochement' is that of agreeing to separate religion and science. Both tolerating each other.

More "quantitative" blunders by the good (a-hole) doctor:

"A study by academics at the International Islamic University Malaysia [2] showed that OIC countries have 8.5 scientists, engineers, and technicians per 1000 population, compared with a world average of 40.7, and 139.3 for countries of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development. "

Can anyone spot the nonsense in the above "study". There is something known as the age structure of the population. The Muslim and other developing countries that have a higher fertility and mortality rates have a much younger population than the OECD countries. Now a younger population of under 17 year olds, would not have gone through even a bachelor's degree to be counted as "scientists", while the OECD countries have a proportionately much larger percent of an older population due to low mortality and fertility rates and that would translate into more people of a "scientist" age, not to mention the effects of colonization which have ensured that educational institutions in developing countries produce clerks and morons at best, and very little effort was made to alter that structure post colonization.

Now, what do you think about this tape-recorderesque "science" of these a-holes, gill, the shrink and this fool PH

#5, you have no understanding of what science or the Quran is about whatsoever. Science refers to a methodology of arriving at objective fact and truth. Fact and truth are not what changes,they are absolute in that sense, the error lies in the human mind which improves incrementally in its use of the scientific methodology to discover the truth and fact. Comprendey?

Now if someone created that fact and truth in the first place, and is not held to the same limitations as the human mind which tries to discover things "after the fact", then he can tell you "absolutely" about aspects of that truth and fact as "creator". There is no conflict here with the scientific methodology, as there is absolutley no conflict between religion and science, according to the Quran which invites people to use it to arrive at the truth, and then "after the fact" confirm the Quran's statements.

#2 Posted by arjun2




I do not see these numbers as discouraging at all if put in proper perspective. Lets see:

There are approximately 1 billion Muslims in the world and so are Hindus in India. Among the 59 Muslim countries the data shows the statistics of only 7 Muslim countries who together put 241,268 "All science papers", wheres Hindus put out 202,727 papers. Now if you do the math it turns out that when compared to only 7 Muslim countries, Hindus turn out to be 16% stupider than Muslims. If we extrapolate this comparative statistics to include 59 Muslim countries wrt Hindus in order to do parity of populations, the Hindus turn out to be border line retards.

rozaiba writes "Muhammad Abu Bakr Zakariya Al-Razi (10th century), the greatest physician ...."

Einstien what has being a "physician" got to do with the truth or falsity of prophets or the ijaz of the Quran.....NOTHING! A miserable misuse of authority, similar to Wasim Akram promoting the benefits of Pepsi....

PH....and these guys are going to save Pakistan....give me a damn break...!

Urstruly, that's a great point. Had not thought of that earlier. *thinking icon here*

There are probably many other issues, but the point is well-made.

#8 Posted by Urstruly on August 2, 2007 12:18:45 pm


There are approximately 1 billion Muslims in the world and so are Hindus in India.


Nice try with the snowjob..

There are 1 billion Indians, 85% hindu..so that's 850 million hindus..

there are 1.2 billion muslims at least..how do we know that? because each time someone draws a mo cartoon or writes a book dissing mo, we hear about how the feelings of 1.2 billion muslims are more important than one artist..

so the population of muslims is actually 1.4 times that of hindus...

you must think we're all inbred retards..or pakis..

11 Posted by KaalChakra on August 2, 2007 12:28:33 pm


Had not thought of that earlier. *thinking icon here*


What you need is a "can't tell my head from my ass" icon..

#6 Posted by masadi on August 2, 2007 11:59:07 am


Now a younger population of under 17 year olds, would not have gone through even a bachelor's degree to be counted as "scientists",


masadi: if the older practioners of the ROP are not scientists, who's going to educate the younger lot to be scientists...I mean real scientists..not social scientists..like you..

haha # 13, ok. Just do all those calculations fairly, and let those numbers fall where they may :)

But there are also other issues - I suspect, for instance, issues of direction and change. Indian numbers should be rising while those of the Islamic world should stay flat or rise far more slowly (if what this article seems to suggest is true).

Re: # 9Masadi

(((Einstien what has being a "physician" got to do with the truth or falsity of prophets or the ijaz of the Quran.....NOTHING! A miserable misuse of authority, similar to Wasim Akram promoting the benefits of Pepsi.... ))))

Excellent....join you soon.

Urstruly,

Quick question: how did you come up with 241,268? A quick summation results in a little over 183,000 … No? Or did I miss something?

And it is difficult to ascertain number of scientific papers from the remaining 52 Islamic countries (59 total, minus the 7 listed here). The distribution probably tails off quite dramatically after the 10-or-so Islamic countries with highest volume of scientific papers. Linear extrapolation will certainly lead to erroneous results; that is not to say that you are suggesting linear extrapolation.

arjun,

For even comparison, if India is 85% Hindu, then 85% of the total volume of papers is likely contributed by Hindus. Not that this matters one way or the other. But I hope this comparison thing does not turn into a pissing contest between the two of you.

#17 Posted by sattar2 on August 2, 2007 1:05:21 pm


For even comparison, if India is 85% Hindu, then 85% of the total volume of papers is likely contributed by Hindus.


Absolutely....but we're going with the maulana's logic here..so if Indian muslims are kept down by the hindooos, surely they can't have contributed their 15% share, can they?

notice how maulana urstruly uses the 1billion number here..OTOH, whenever there's a danish cartoon or something, we hear of 1.2 billion undies in a knot..1 billion muslims, 1.2 billion undies..doesn't add up..

Sattar:

The point that I am trying to make here is that such statistics as posted by Dr. Hoodbhoy are skewed, misleading, and biased. They do not put things in perspcetive. So what if it turns out that its not 16% Hindus that are stupider than Muslims, but only 8%. The important thing is how do you provide an honest and appropriate perspective to those statistics.

Now here is another statistics for Hindus and Hoodbhoy to mull over. The GDP of Pakistan alone is more than that of all Muslim counries put together minus their GDP from oil production. What do you think that an honest unbiased perspective to that statistics would be? Makes great sound bite though.

Here is the latest statiscs gather by Newsweek last week. It shows that Muslims in America do better than general public in all field of education, income, and employment status etc.

I don't know how to put multimedia graphics here, but here is the hyperlink.

The point is that "Muslim backwardness" is a myth. Given the proper social atmosphere, where equal opportunities are availbale and where ther is social justice and equity, Muslims have shown to excel all the rest. Muslims in Us have only been here for the past 40 years when aparthied ended 40 years ago.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19877370/site/newsweek/

#20 Posted by Urstruly on August 2, 2007 1:35:27 pm

that means America, the great persecutor of american muslims and where there's going to be a genocide against muslims according to you, attracts the cream of the muslims...you can't extrapolate that to muslims in general..

The relationship between economic development and science is pretty obvious from the doctor's own charts.
But his ideological biases prevents him from seeing that.

#19 Posted by Urstruly

[The point that I am trying to make here is that such statistics as posted by Dr. Hoodbhoy are skewed, misleading, and biased. They do not put things in perspcetive. So what if it turns out that its not 16% Hindus that are stupider than Muslims, but only 8%. The important thing is how do you provide an honest and appropriate perspective to those statistics.

Now here is another statistics for Hindus and Hoodbhoy to mull over. The GDP of Pakistan alone is more than that of all Muslim counries put together minus their GDP from oil production. What do you think that an honest unbiased perspective to that statistics would be? Makes great sound bite though. ]


Ok. Let me, as a Hindu mull over this. Hmmmmmmm.... Okay. Done mulling.

Let's see.....

According to your post, without oil production, the total GDP of all Muslim countries combined is:

GDP of Pakistan + GDP of ALL OTHER Muslim countries
= GDP of Pakistan + (Less than the GDP of Pakistan)
= Less than (2 X GDP of Pakistan)
= 2 X GDP of Pakistan (Rounded)


Now as of 2006,

GDP of Pakistan = $ 437.5 billion (PPP) / $ 124 billion ( Official Exchange rate)

So....

GDP of ALL MUSLIM COUNTRIES COMBINED (minus oil money) = $ 875 billion (PPP) / $ 248 billion ( Official Exchange rate)

And...

GDP of India = $ 4.156 trillion (PPP) / $ 804 billion ( Official Exchange rate)

So then are you saying that ALL Muslim countries combined cannot come anywhere close to the Hindus in productivity?

Eh?

I clicked on maulana urstruly's link...they prove the exact opposite of what he's saying..

14% of muslims are college grads compared to 16% of the general population

some college
muslims 23%
general 29%

grad school
muslims 10%
general 9%

by income
50-75k
muslims: 15%
general population: 16%

75k-100k
muslims: 10%
general population: 11%


more than 100k
muslims: 16%
general population: 17%

#22 Posted by khurram on August 2, 2007 1:39:07 pm


The relationship between economic development and science is pretty obvious from the doctor's own charts.


how do you figure? saudi arabia has all the oil money in the world..they can be considered economically developed but they couldn't find a camel's butt without a map(and someone to read them the map)

Re: # 23

I think, you are a sikh, not a hindu. because a baniya would know that the point I am trying to make is that comparing apples and oranges is unscietific and misleading, even though it makes great soundbites.

From urstruly's link

employment status

muslims: 43%
general publis: 40%



It shows that Muslims in America do better than general public in all field of education, income, and employment status etc.

#26 Posted by Urstruly on August 2, 2007 1:50:39 pm

you posted a link claiming it proved muslims in the US better than the general public when, in fact, it proves exactly the opposite...no need to slice and dice the numbers..

are you retarded or just a paki?

actually a very good article made by dr. hoodbhoy.

as a science and maths teacher in an international environment i notice that asian students are v. good at memorisation and learning facts but not so good when it comes to creative thinking or lateral thinking in problem solving.

why?

Hi Dr. Hoodboy, Enjoyed reading your clear sincere words as usual.

I know that the author will not reply to this, but:

Aren't chaotic systems deterministic? ... generated from, say, tent maps with certain (measure zero) initial conditions? ... chowk math. types can you clarify (no wiki please).

"why is the Islamic world disengaged from science and the process of creating new knowledge? "

An extremely interesting question you have posed there Prof. I searched and re-read your article gadzillions time (gadzillions only because it was an article penned by you. Unfortunately I could find the answer. However, I found an answer to the question:

Is the islamic world diengaged from science......

And unfortuantely the erudite denizens of chowk, MAsada Complex, Urstruly, et al seem to be engaged in answering or countering this question. Which is a straw man if ever there was one.

So despite the huge number of words and bytes spent on this topic so far, no one has dared answer this question. No one will even venture anywhere near providing an answer.

Perhaps, Hamidm2, when he comes out of his wine induced stupor, will venture forthe with an answer!

What a shame really!

#32 Posted by iron_mask:

"why is the Islamic world disengaged from science and the process of creating new knowledge? "

In absolute terms this question means nothing. Joel Mokyr, Northwestern Univ., has been trying to answer the following:

"Why did the Europeans leap frog the Arabs and the Chinese?"

He asserts that it was the Reformation. You may enjoy some of his essays and books.

Re: # 31

intersting, question you have posed there GT. A naughty one as well.

from my little knowledge of maths - which is minimal and self taught - there are others here like yourself who are more qualified to answer...

Yes, upto a point what you say is corerct. The reason for the determinitic nature of the chaotic function is that there is an unerlying structure/order to it. The tent maps you have referred to are esentially iterative functions, and the nature of the ireration is dependent on the mu value. Take a typical low passs first order difference system

x(t+1)=x(t) + mu(x(t)-x(t-1))

This is fully understood, and most propoerties can be analysed well. Indeed this is also the basis for all hill climbing or sttepest descent type algorithms.

The tent functions are similar to this. A typical one has the following form





If the peak were slightly flatter, it would become a band pass, and indeed if the map was moved to the left it would become a low pass.

Thus the function for small values of mu is well known, and reasonably understood. For high values of mu you have slightly different behaviour. For even higher values you move into a zone which is not clear from a simple analysis, but nevertheless tractable and predictable. (I prefer predictability to deterministic).

Now why I said this was a naughty question is if we take x(t) to be an interact on chowk, then x(t+1) is often predictable (and yes deterministic i.e predictable with 100% certainty) given any mu (mu could be the article itself, the size of the brains etc). So eventhough Chowk is a chaotic system, there is a wonderful underlying structure to it, the effing spectral radius (the maxium one) is always less than 1, and hence converge rapidly.

Re: # 33

yeah, GT - this is a question which reminds me of the old staory about 3 blind men and the elephant? Would you not agree?

Re: # 34 (if the peak were slightly flatter - okay there could be discontinuties, or it could be smooth everywhere :C^n)

if smooth you have a band pass. The discontinuity makes it interesting.

#36 Posted by iron_mask

Don't you let the cat out of the box ... for then the state would be known ;-).

Small suggestion: Draw a 45 degree line through your graph. Let mu not equal to half (otherwise it is not interesting). You will see at most two points of intersection. Start from the 45 degree line and go up (or down) to the graph of the tent. From there go horizontally to the 45 degree line and repeat (this is the dynamics).

You will see (depending on your chosen mu) that your dynamics will either diverge from or converge to the intersections or you will be trapped in a square. None of this is chaotic dynamics. However, for some mu the dynamics will be none of the above, amongst this set of mus there will be some that exhibit chaos. But it is extremely unlikely that you will be able to get this mu if you are randomly choosing a mu (that is why it is of measure zero). Actually, even if you get this mu chaos will depend on where you are starting from.

yes GT. ! That is why I said dependeing on your choice of mu you can get different effects. hence my preffered term "predictability" as opposed to "deterministic".

See also #36 Thus the function for small values of mu is well known, and reasonably understood. For high values of mu you have slightly different behaviour. For even higher values you move into a zone which is not clear from a simple analysis, but nevertheless tractable and predictable. (I prefer predictability to deterministic).

The mu at which none of this happens, your:However, for some mu the dynamics will be none of the above, amongst this set of mus there will be some that exhibit chaos. is similar to singularity. In the tent function this point is often the point of discontinuity (mu at this point is an interesting value).

The cat has escaped, and it is you who have set it amongst thepiegeons!!!! ;)

#38 Posted by iron_mask

Self taught mathematics is way more fun/damental :) Keep it up. In the population of chowk interactors, you have empirically falsified the good doctor's claim.

You can use predictable but never confuse between probabilistic and deterministic systems .... this is where self taught dominates over the class room.

Professor Sahib:

A very good chronicle.

Somehow, the science has always been identified with a person; Einsteinian Physics, Newtonian Physics, Neil Bohr’s Postulates, etc. are just examples. I have never encountered rise or decline of science in Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, or Hindu countries. Individuals contributed to science, because science empowered individuals who possessed creative minds and commitment to contribute. Was it Neil Bohr or his contemporary in this rumor that he had to make the cross Atlantic journey sitting on by the bomb or something? Nothing deterred. The commitment to contribute and probity of mind to their causes is no less than those of misguided Lal Masjid students, in this case the area to contribute and probe is highly constrained. Therefore, value of such studies on decline in Islamic, for that matter Christian, etc. worlds is highly questionable. Empowering individuals, and un-restraining them is the key. The issue is how to not waste beautiful minds inside Lal Masjids or whatever else is in other religions.

Before your career in the academic world, and mine in the technology ventures enter their twilights, we will see a massive shift in paradigm regarding education, and more so science and technology education. Your alma mater MIT, and my alma mater HBS included are doing many things. MIT indeed is making all course material, class lectures not just from its faculties, but also from faculties of world’s finest institutions (IITs included) at no cost to anyone, anywhere and anytime. The process of creation, accumulation and distribution of knowledge piggybacked on the technology is riding a powerful horse that will cut through Islamic, Christian, Hindu etc. scenarios. Center of excellence will be connected to anyone who wants to use these centers.

Therefore, the most important gap to fill is the digital divide, instead of “... must be checked before the gulf widens further.” What you do at your university could be a great beginning? How many of your students whom you must have thought could have beaten MIT student, but could not be there? Making possible so that they may not need to be at MIT is important.

I have read all of your essays here, and wonder why professor sahib professes freedom, but why does he even imply questioning Lal Masjids. Shouldn't they have freedom? What will happen if the society were the judge on its merit? Need would be educating in competing thoughts, what is wrong, let it be.

Would it not be more important to define the quanta of knowledge that Pakistani society can absorb and build on? What are the constituents in these quanta of knowledge? So what if part of the message must include Lal Masjids message?

On your “A bloody clash of civilizations, should it actually transpire, will surely rank along with the two other most dangerous challenges to life on our planet—climate change and nuclear proliferation.” I recently attended an interesting discussion on global warming that centered on the fact that that technology has arrived and may be used to match many forces of nature. To me regressive thought in any society is a force of nature that needs to be countered.

Finally, Professor Sahib, your point that “A generally tolerant and pluralistic Islamic culture allowed Muslims, Christians, and Jews to create new works of art and science together....”, holds the key!!!

Now there are two more: Chinese and Indian to add. More the merrier according to me, I would like to see Persian, and Turkish rennaisance as well. This proliferation will only dilute dominance, therefore, nightmare of clash of civilization will only recede in future faster than the real-time.

" Only the exceptional individual is able to exercise such a mindset in a society in which absolute authority comes from above, questions are asked only with difficulty, the penalties for disbelief are severe, the intellect is denigrated, and a certainty exists that all answers are already known and must only be discovered."

Amazing analyses.

Well done !!

Two major reasons for the state of science -

1. Rise of Islamist politics where every thing is made to conform to Islamic theology.

2. End of disbelief and scepticism about world views and forced and political beliefs about world views. Even to the extent that some Arabic chuotya Mullah made a fatwa regarding the correctness of flat earth.

3. Lack of internal discussion about incorrect world view in Quran within muslim community.

It is like a community that refuses to question its antiquated dark age theology and tries to extoll its perversities.

#26 Posted by Urstruly

[I think, you are a sikh, not a hindu. because a baniya would know that the point I am trying to make is that comparing apples and oranges is unscietific and misleading, even though it makes great soundbites. ]

Who's the idiot - the one that's allegedly trying to make a point by making contradictory statements, or the one who calls him on it?

I think of all features of Islam, the worst is the FEAR it instills in the hearts of it's followers.

Dr. Hoodbhoy, like many of the intelligentsia in the Islamic world, is clearly afraid to state the truth in a straightforward manner - he has to approach it indirectly in all kinds of roundabout ways so as not to be labeled a traitor and murdered by one of the followers of the Religion of Peace.

Masadi wrote:

"There is no conflict here with the scientific methodology, as there is absolutley no conflict between religion and science, according to the Quran which invites people to use it to arrive at the truth, and then "after the fact" confirm the Quran's statements."

And people ask why there religion and science don't gel.

Re: # 44

" Quran which invites people to use it to arrive at the truth, and then "after the fact" confirm the Quran's statements"

Hey. As an idolator I have read Quran and examined the so called 'invitation'- it was hardly an invitation and more of a THREAT if I did not believe in what the book says about the rest of the world and itself.
It is a book that claims its own truth as if it is a logical truth of some axiomatic system.
Truth is always with reference to an external fact or state of affairs - Quran's self-validity is like rant of those psycho-s in the PAgalKhana who base the truthfulness of their claims on their hallucinations.

Sure, all those PAgals call themselves as "scientific" when they lay claim to the tuth of their hallucinations.

Actually, the main reason for the poor state of affairs in muslim nations are these Islamists who want to DAWA' their claims over the skeptic scientific community that relies on conjectures and refutations as a method to aceept a truth-claim.

Blind side

The learned professor has this time completely missed the plot. The so called early scientific achievements of islam was due to the work of others, those who continued with their christian and other traditions of scientific pursuit. As the islamic ideas and temperament took root in the society, the view that every thing is their in the book, the science declined. The so called golden age of islam is essentailly a period when the islamic ideology had not taken root, they were nominally ruled by the mulsims.

You can see the case in India, the moghul period was nominallan islamic rule, but there was nothing islamic in peoples way of thinking.

Now take the case of pakistan, in the last 60 years the real islamic thinking has taken root, the children of TNT are running the show and you all can see it.

The core of islam kills a scientific temperament, a capability for critical analysis and a belief that things can be changed.

Despite every evidence the YLH keep telling that hoodood ordinance is due to Zia. But refuses to accept that no subsequent ruler dared to change it, representing a wider acceptance of the hoodood. That is lack of scientifc temper by a nominally educated YLH.

Hence all of the statistics that Pervez quoted do not count, by no stretch of imagination can one say that YLH is scientifically trained. he has a piece of paper from the US, but the mind set of a TNT child.

It is this underlying core of isl;amic temper that makes teh doctors suicide bombers in London, because at the core they cannot evaluate their own actions, the medical degree is only a skill, not a scientific knowledge for them.

bravo, hoodbhoy (clapping Icon here).

The subject matter is weighty, in that it sits like a 1000000 ton gorilla on the shoulders, and is even worse than a bull in a china shop. A hornets nest (if you all can stick with the mix of metaphors etc here).

more laterz!

GT and Iron_mask,

you guys need your heads examined.

I agree with interact #32 upto a point.

the question which keeps whizzing in my brain is this - what is the connection between chaos and what PH says here?
can anyone explicate this to me.

same old music - Hoodbhoy the enlightened man shoots down "mullah science" (which requires as much effort as shooting fish in a barrel), Indians come in to hyperventilate about how backward muslims are (as opposed to the enlightened horoscope driven, caste ridden hindus), and Pakistanis come in to squabble among themselves.

Everyone has lots of fun. :-)

Zeemax:
You say,"..I haven't read this article yet..". Please don't read you as will not be able to understand the article. It seems your mouth and $#asshole are interchanged.You are biological freak

Re: # 43 Ajeya:

If he were to write directly about the stupidity of so many in Islamic world, Jihad's wrath will visit him. He will be blown to bits. It is best he stick to the present format.

Kamath

#50 Posted by Kamath on August 3, 2007 5:56:13 am

I never thought u can write like this? (rolling eyes).

Re: # 50 Kamath, if they are interchanged then zeemax xannot be called a biological freak - since the path the food follows is still one-way. Dont matter which way up-down or down-up!

Now if you said they are both the same, then it would be different. And essentially you would be turning poor zeemax in ****-eater!

Lets get some more Pakis in a knot....

PPP likely to sweep polls in Pakistan: Survey
Islamabad, Aug. 3 (PTI): Former Pakistan Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto's party is likely to sweep the general elections scheduled to be held later this year, according to an opinion poll.

About 58 per cent people in Sindh, 33 per cent in Balochistan, 23 per cent in Punjab and 25 per cent in North West Frontier Province (NWFP) wanted to see Bhutto's Pakistan People's Party (PPP) in power, the poll conducted by the US-based International Republican Institute (IRI) said.

The survey, carried out between June 13 and July 3, showed that self-exiled Bhutto has overtaken President Pervez Musharraf in popularity ratings.

"The survey should serve as an eye-opener to those who advocate the idea of a non-representative government for Pakistan. The majority of Pakistanis are very clear in their minds about the future set up for their country.

"They want a democratic government and a strong Parliament to represent them, and work for their welfare," Sherry Rehman, Central Information Secretary of PPP, said while releasing part of the results of the poll.

After the results of the comprehensive survey, there should be no doubt in anyone's mind about the choices people want to make in Pakistan, she said in a statement here today.

"Despite suffering a decade of political mudslinging and a spate of attempts at breaking its back, the PPP remains the most popular party with the masses, enjoying a strong support base in the rural areas, (among) labourers and low-income households that comprises the majority of Pakistan," she said.

When comparison is made of 11 Noble prizes for the people from Muslim lands to 7 noble laureattes in India, the statistical science conclusively proves that Hindus are 36% stupider than Muslims.

This percentage just keeps getting higher and higher everytime I interact here.

#46 Jay p

Your Anti muslim stance is so obvious that you are like the group are unscientic bunch of people your self ignorent generaliser

"It is this underlying core of isl;amic temper that makes teh doctors suicide bombers in London, because at the core they cannot evaluate their own actions, the medical degree is only a skill, not a scientific knowledge for them"

You are ignoring or ignorent about of such incidents in hindu.. phd student in indiana and toranto going nuts ...and even jewish doctor who took to Ak 7 shooting in Jerusalem Al Aqsa mosque ...right now and through out & history muslim have ben defending themselves ...

Urstruly nothing to do with article : when was the last time you were considered an equal to the arab! there is a saying about the hierarchy in the arab world its like this

1. Yanks
2. Arabs
3. God/Allah
4. White Europeans
5. Japanese/Chinese (recently chinese)
6. Other semi-arabs
7. Persians
8. the rest of the world.

In this, you are but a part of the rest of the world for the great protectors of the ummah - no better than the hindu!

So coming to the article - do you not think that the title would have been better if it said

" why is pakistan lagging behind......

rather than islamic world.

Be pakistan centric. Forget the ummah - they dont care for and would not even serve dog pooh on a bad day. Just my opinion...you might beg to differ.

#57 actually it goes like this

1. yanks
2. Saudis (if they are saudis else another arab)
3. Other Arabs (if not saudi in 2 then saudi)
4.
5.
so on

I don't think I'll read this article after all. It must be more of the same moronic stuff like the one he wrote in his previous article i.e.:

"What should the government do after the guns stop firing and the hostages are out, whether dead or alive? At least two immediate actions are needed."

Then he goes on to write some silly stuff the government must do.

The retard didn't even consider the possibility that the guns may NOT stop firing after the 'hostages' (?) are out, whether dead or alive.

Mr. Urstruly, I just read your short story named 'The Whore' from sometime in 2004. You Sir, are without doubt the best short story writer on this site. When'll another story be published?

We need a break from the psychopathic psychiatrists, mathematicians, and physicist retards rampaging here like monkeys around a tub full of peanuts.

Re: # 60

Thank you Zeemax. I am currently working on a story which is based on some true events that happened in the backdrop of the Partition. All I can say is, that currently it is gestating.

#61 Posted by Urstruly,

You wrote you're influenced by Bano Qudsia. But I think you have a touch of Guy De Maupassant as well. Is that correct?

Re: # 61

urstruly, this story is like gestation period of an african elephant (760 days)!

Re: # 62

God! I love Maupassant. I started reading him when I was probably 12. Read him over and over as I matured. He is master of putting feelings in simple things. In one of his short stories he describes a scene in a bakery during war years. Two young nuns are standing in the bakery wondering what to buy since they do not have enough money. They are hungry and confused. A young and handsome soldier walks in. The nuns couldn't take their eyes off of him because of his grace and youth. He walks right in front of them and grabs a fresh baked bread in his hands. His fingers just sink into the softness of the bread; and when he lets go of the bread, it slowly starts coming back to its normal shape. Soldier is totally oblivious of the fact that he had just rendered two nuns breathless. Maupassant says nothing more but the depth of this little observation speaks to reader at so many levels that it is incredible. Only Maupassant can do it.

#64 Posted by Urstruly,

Yeah ... and he always left his audience in a dilemma in the end ... often a state of complete shock as in 'The Pearl Necklace (A string of beads)'.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Most people learn by watching others. Others may have different ideas, pieces of works, and ways that one may not have thought oneself – so watching them enables oneself to think “outside the box”.

Intolerance for others invariably leads to ignorance of others. It leads to ignorance of new ideas, of new pieces of works, and of new ways of doing things that one can not envisage oneself. Therefore, one ends up firmly inside one’s own box.

Intolerance for others, coupled with an assumed superiority of one’s own built on arrogant pretensions, created the nation of Pakistan and having steadily been fed those same ingredients intravenously over the last six decades – more systematically over the last three decades – has brought about the current pathetic state of scientific thought in that land.

Like an addict who is the last one to realize that he got a problem, the malady will not get better without external intervention. These folks need to be told that they have screwed up! Then they need to be told – again and again! Then, and only then perhaps, will the choke hold of fundamentalism let go and allow the millions to breathe free – at least those who are not already brain-dead.

The problem at its root is rather simple – an honest pursuit of science requires a questioning mind which must remain open to “other” ideas. Can Islam allow such openness without contradicting itself as expressed in its own Book?

#67 Posted by bjkumar,

Mr. UKP, do you think conducting numerous cold nuclear tests since the 80s and 5 hot ones in 1998 were without science? Is making widgets or writing code solely science?

You guys are completely off-track, as is this author going by the responses because I haven't read this assuredly moronic article.

#68 That is the best thing I like about this new chowk format. You can skip the stupid article altogether. :-)

#68 Zeemax

Zee kambakhat, save the bragging for the nincompoops who actually give a hoot about your thought process.

If you had actually been able to READ the piece by Dr. Hoodbhoy - he has already dealt with the nuke issue.

In simple words, Engineering (including reverse engineering in which the subcontinent excels) is not science. Like most of the work appearing on this site, it is not creative enough.

The good doctor's facts are indisputable. This is one of the best pieces of his that I have read anywhere. It was published in a journal of eminence and was peer-reviewed by people of much superior caliber than most around here. That is good enough for me.

The real question that he poses and tries to answer (at least partially) and the real question that individuals like you ought to ask yourself is - why are all my Pakistani Muslim bhais (and behns) so backward in scientific innovation?

The problem that people like you have is you can not answer that simple question honestly without being accused of apostasy yourself.

Which keeps you exactly where you remain! Like a frog mesmerized by snake-gaze.

#70 Posted by bjkumar,

Mr. Haraami kambakht ... how do you describe scientific innovation? What constitutes it? Pls give me examples. Thks:)

i dont unnerstand what the good doctor is saying..in india the biggest computer science lab and the biggest drug-discovery lab (specializing in AZT and other aids cocktails) are under muslim leaderships.

#71 .. and next question is how do you reverse engineer anything unless you have a sample in the first place?

Pls answer both questions ...

#71 Zeemax

Kambakhat Zee, if you REALLY need to know the answer, it is staring you right in your face.

(PS: if still clueless, try clicking on the "Article" tab above.)

bjkumar: and I suppose all the scientific words in english that came from arabic (chemistry, algorithm, algebra) were created by camels!!

While what you say about arrogance is true, Pakistani maulvis are hardly representative of all muslims. Thus, muslims in fact have historically been among the most energetic seekers of knowledge (buddhist and hindu mathematicians were invited to Baghdad after muhammed bin qasim's invasion, as were greek scholars. Pakistanis have a great diversity in views, representing I think a healthy society where social pressures for conformity are much less than many Indians on chowk seem to think (or want to think).

Of course, this does not mean that Pakistani maulvis dont need to get some proper education...

#74 Posted by bjkumar,

Fcuk the article ... please answer the questions I asked ...!

Mr. Ahmed,

Past glory doesnt take u anywhere unless u live in the present. Arabs as a civilisation are GREAT but they stagnated.

The day of awakening wud come to arabs when ppl of China and India throng to Arab universities for higher education not when the same run for crumbs of petro-economies.

This is what Dr. Farrukh Salim is crying from roof-tops.

I see a snail's pace awakening towards this direction by a few arab states.

#72 Posted by jang

Jang:

I had several problems with this article too. Many have been pointed out by other interactors i.e. socio-economic concerns etc. But two (perhaps related) issues have gone uncommented.

1. The article, written by a physicist with an interest in his social surrounding, puts forth nothing new. It is just an overblown newspaper article with a pretense of seriousness. It seems that the writer feels that his name along with the name of the lecture that he mentions up-front is sufficient to warrant publication in chowk. He, of course, is right in his supposition as chowk indeed published the article!

2. The article is full of cliches. Comming from an author, with a rutation as a good theoretical physicist I was rattled to see this: "indeterminacy in ... chaotic systems". I have seen this phrase with revulsion in popular books on chaos.

Anyway, I may be making a mountain out of a mole-hill ... but them maybe I am not.

Nice article Hoodboy sahib. I think the question I would like to ask is why should knowledge be deemed islamic or relatd to any other religion at all? The very point of coining terms as "islamic science" and so and so forth, immediately hampers the universality of the subject. Scientific development is an evolution (pun intended) of human thought not a divine mandate.

Algebra is not an islamic invention. Algebra has continued to be there before Islam and after islam. Idiots who think a religion is somehow beneficial to science, should be made to be put into the CERN Superhadron Collider and shot back and forth between France and Switzerland.

If you are talking about muslim scientists there innemerable of them but why go into numbers more or less than other ethnic groups....just science and research papers is not enough.....



Clearly energetic and committed,Dr. Shah says that “a sense of hard work and discipline was instilled early on in my life.” He attended a private English school in Kashmir,India,and in high school was awarded the national scholarship for outstanding merit from the government of India. He obtained his basic medical education at R.G.Kar Medical College at the University of Calcutta and completed his resi-dency in internal medicine at Sisters Hospital at the State University of New York (SUNY) at Buffalo.There he was honored with the Austin Flint Award as best resident and chosen chief resident during his third year of residency.“It was then that I became particu-larly interested in the care of patients with renal disease and the different modalities of treatment for end-stage renal failure,”Dr.Shah said.Dr. Shah came to Los Angeles to be-gin a nephrology fellowship at UCLA.“I was blessed to be able to train there with some of the nation’s best nephrol-ogists,including Drs.Charles Kleeman,Jack Coburn,Alan Nissenson,Ira Kurtz,William Goodman and others.”Never satisfied with less, Dr. Shah felt that the care of the elderly, espe-cially those with chronic diseases such as kidney failure, presented a unique challenge to caregivers like himself, so he decided to complete an additional fellowship in geriatrics at UCLA.“This added knowledge definitely gives me an edge when treating kidney failure patients, especially the aging,who present with complex problems in addition to their kidney disease.”Most of all,Dr.Shah feels he is lucky to have trained with and received ex-tensive hands-on training in transplant medicine with Dr. Gabriel Danovitch and Dr.Alan Wilkinson.Dr. Shah remained at UCLA as a Nephrologist ShahJoins NIT Team Transplant nephrologist Tariq Shah, M.D., joined NIT in July 2004 and isdeeply engaged in the clinical care of kidney and pancreas transplant patientsin Los Angeles and at NIT’s satellite office in Bakersfield.Tariq Shah, M.D.Transplant Seminar Held in BakersfieldThe National Institute of Transplantation hosted “Management of End Stage Renal Disease Through Kidney Transplantation,”a seminar for health care practitioners in Bakersfield at the Holiday Inn on Dec.2.“The NIT maintains offices in Bakersfield,Visalia, and San Luis Obispo, and we decided that because there was no major transplantation center in the area we would offer this continuing education program to nurses, social workers, and technicians in the Central Valley who serve dialysis patients,” said NIT spokesperson Nicole Pinkerton.“The program consisted of an overview on transplantation by Rob Warkentin,B.S.N., R.N., a discussion of live donation by St.Vincent Medical Center transplant coordinator Sandy Felty,R.N.,and psycho-social evaluation of the transplant patient by Vivian Longoria,L.C.S.W.“We have found that dialysis workers sometimes have misunderstandings about precisely who is eligible for transplantation.New science and technology have made increasing numbers of end-stage renal disease patients eligible for a transplant,but sometimes they aren’t referred to a transplant center because the workers at the dialysis units aren’t aware of these advances.The seminar was our effort to com-municate essential new information to those who are most closely involved with transplant patients,”Ms.Pinkerton said.Fujisawa Healthcare,Inc.sponsored the event.member of the faculty after completing his fellowship and before joining the NIT. He brings the skills of a physician who is triple board-certified and AST-certified.“I love my work,” Dr. Shah says,“but it is no walk in the park.The hours are long and the workload is huge, but I wouldn’t trade this for anything else.Transplant nephrology is intellectually stimulating. I am closely involved with the teaching of medical residents and Fellows in training.I also work in close collaboration with NIT Director Sali As-wad,M.D.We are constantly examining new methods of improving patient and graft (organ) survival and are involved in a number of multi-center national tri-als, testing newer immunosuppressive medications that will potentially have great benefit.“This is a very exciting time in the field of transplantation because of the explosion of knowledge in transplant immunology and immune tolerance that will hopefully translate into better patient outcomes and allow us to trans-plant many more people and be able to allow them to live a longer and more functional life with improved care.”Transplant nephrology and hyperten-sion remain Dr.Shah’s main interests.In his rare leisure moments Dr.Shah

#72 Jang,

Let me take a guess at what the doctor is saying – he is asking how come muslim majority states (living under partly or fully implemented islamic governance architecture) are falling behind the states operating under Christian / jewish / hindu / buddhist / communist architectures.

We all know that muslims are fine productive people as long as they live under other architectures and they have not been infected with jihadi virus. This proves that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the 'hardware'. Question is what happens to these intelligent and energetic people when they live under Islamic influenced operating system/government.

May be the good doctor can clarify it :)

Here is covincing ans scientific argument at the end of which the aethist professor ( like Arjunites )are proven wrong




Religion vs Science
====================


"Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes, sir."

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could... in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't.

[No answer.]

"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

[No answer]

The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. "Let's start again, young fella."

"Is God good?"

"Er... Yes."

"Is Satan good?"

"No."

"Where does Satan come from?" The student falters.

"From... God..."

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience."I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian.

"Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"

"Yes."

"Who created evil?

[No answer]

"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness. All the terrible things - do they exist in this world? "

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"Who created them? "

[No answer] The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?"

[No answer]

The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails.

Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"

[No answer]

"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?"

Pause.

"Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, "Is God good?"

[No answer]

"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."

The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen him? "

"No, sir. I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir. I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus...in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"

[No answer]

"Answer me, please."

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"You're AFRAID... you haven't?"

"No, sir."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"...yes..."

"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling."According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"

[The student doesn't answer]

"Sit down, please."

The Christian sits...Defeated.

Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"

The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."

The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."

"Is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No, sir, there isn't."

The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold.

The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super- heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 -

You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. "Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."

Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.

"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"

"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?"

"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes..."

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"

Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."

The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!""

"Sir, may I explain what I mean?"

The class is all ears.

"Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.

"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains. "That for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."

The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"

"Of course there is, now look..."

"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality.

Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?"

The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.

The Christian continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work, God is accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."

The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."

"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Christian replies.

"Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.

"Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?"

"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.

"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"

"I believe in what is - that's science!"

"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..."

"SCIENCE IS FLAWED?" the professor splutters.

The class is in uproar.

The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?" The professor wisely keeps silent.

The Christian looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out in laughter.

The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain... felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?" No one appears to have done so.

The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the professor has no brain."

The class is in chaos.

The Christian sits down.

GT and pardesi,

chaos and fractals notwithstanding, (and ignoring those obscene pictures put up by iron..very offensive)..

this is what really pisses me off. creative shyte is not easy...it happens when stars align. its not like it can be done in any environment. its not easy to replicate. so the question why OIC countries dont produce high quality science is inherently godless. its perfectly fine to marvel why israel is a hotbed of creativity or why pakistan is a hotbed of jihadism, but to ask why jihad has not taken roots in india or nigeria or why Borneo is not a hotbed for Galois Field enthusiasts is patently silly. So many stars have to align for shyte to happen right...where do you start?

next the good doctor will write an article why men dont concieve.

folio #77 It is true that past glories mean nothing. However, in pointing to past arab openness to scientific inquiry and ideas, I was responding to my esteemed chowk colleague bjkumar's inquiry, vide licet: "an honest pursuit of science requires a questioning mind which must remain open to “other” ideas. Can Islam allow such openness without contradicting itself as expressed in its own Book?"

If Islamic societies could be so open to ideas a millenium ago (per examples provided), then clearly the answer to bj's question is yes.

#68 Posted by zeemax on August 3, 2007 10:00:57 am


Mr. UKP, do you think conducting numerous cold nuclear tests since the 80s and 5 hot ones in 1998 were without science?


huh? so just because you're using the internet means you invented it or made it better in anyway?

dumbass...

no wonder you find more dead cats in US universities than paki profs...

#83 what i mean is, if we ask question like men have very similar physiology to women, are smart, have money and often get screwed but never make babies, and there are creatures like earthworms..whats up with that?

Mr. Ahmed,

I endorse to what u said. I also wud like to emphasise tht if God has given us life and brains, we MUST use them for the purposes that would bring us prosperity.

I cant think of