A Pakistani-American in India

We have also seen the ayyaiyashi of the nawabs of erstwhile moghul empire who used to live on the zimmas that were given to them by the moghuls.
The muslim nawabs were the worst of the evil. They could rape, kill and destroy any one without being called into question- some nawabis were even worth "100 khoon maaf"- meaning that the nawab could kill 100 persons without being called into question as to why he did it.
The zimmi-dari was also calculated in terms of number of innocent idolator zimmis that the muslim nawab could kill wihtout questioning.

Here is something that MIGHT explain a lot of things we are discussing here, even wanting/expecting war, and the importance (or the lack of) "solution" in that (badly designed survey, nuking as borivalli wants, et al. :))

It is something called the "rise of the south" in India. Think of it as a process parallel to the NWFP's rising influence in Pakistan. It doesn't literally reflect the increasing political power/cultural sway of the south, but to the relative change in mindset. So 'South' is NOT a geographical descriptor here, only one of convenience describing this 'new' India.

Basically, this India feels totally unconnected to Paksistan. It identifies Pakistan with nothing "Indian," exclusively with Islam and with global Jihad (the two being seen as indistinguishable, sufi or no sufi); and is quite repulsed by the whole concept (just like Pakistanis are, rightly, repulsed by the caste system). It believes that Pakistanis, as all potential jihadis, simply cannot not sit down and rationally talk about mutual problems.

For these reasons, it is not concerned with solving any problems with pakistan (cliffs, please note). This south Indian mindset likes to keep Pakistan and Pakistanis under close watch, but ONLY as a matter of precaution against Pakistan's 'natural Islamic/Jihadi tendencies" (who knows when borivalli might get them to use their nukes? :)) (not because of any any brotherly feelings, as defintely is the case with DM ji, and to a certain extent, yours truly as well, being a Lucknowite and all :))

So tahmed ji's appeals for cooperation will fall on deaf ears. He will be asked to address the issue of Jihad first, which naturally is hard to address (because it gets into what Jihad is or not is), or acknowledge Islamic 'history' as this India sees (which again Muslims are likely to see very differently).

Such differences are increasing. That is making finding agreement harder and harder. I have no clue what we can do to reverse this trend...:(

lol express sahab..maybe we should explain to kashmir that the only solution is that they should die we should die and indians should die.
I have a feeling that expalianation may bring lasting peace :)

cliftonbridge nuking india is the only solution for kashmir, for muslims and for this planet and inshallah one day this will happen mark my words even if pakistan has to achieve shahadat

Hindus would have us believe that they were very tolerant because they tolerated muslims, "majboori ka naam mahatma gandhi" they had to bear with us because we held the sword in our hand yet they called us mlechas and wouldnot drink from the same well as us.

They would have us believe that they were so tolerant that the caste system was one happy family. That achoots were not forced to eat faeces, that they were not treated worse than dogs.

They would have us believe that muslims did the same to Kafirs. They would have us believe that the lower castes women were not used by upper caste men wether as devdasis or just in the fields, that thakurs did not deflower their peasent women.

That lower castes were not used as unpaid slaves or Dasa. That Brahmins did not live off other peoples work or did not exploit lower caste women as temple devdasis or that they did not thug poor illiterate workers.

oye ganpats we too have seen hindian movies and read your history. we know how your moneylenders would suck the blood out of the lower castes and muslims and how your thakurs would take lagan from the starving and the brahmins would justify collecting that money while feeding their pot bellies.


And the justification for this masive injustice was that the poor had commited a crime in a past birth that they did not know of. SICK

laddu my point is that sufi's can believe in a different form of religion than me but im am not BLAMING HINDUISM and hating on hinduism like you are blaming us for the monotheistic views of those hindu guys you mentioned.

Borivill express - nuclear holocaust is only the "solution" to the existence of mankind.

sufis are actually munafiqoons.
most sufis were at their heart pagans who did not believe in guiding principles of Islam- the 'truth' of one superior allah, and the finality of prophet's message.

some said la-ilahi...... and stopped there only.

#550 Posted by dost_mittar on August 14, 2007 9:13:05 am


Frankly, this surprised me too:


I'm not surprised that you are surprised...

The pakis want to be friends with India as long as India hands them over Indian Kashmir on a platter..

Just as your generation got along with pakis in the west so long as you didn't call them on their support of islamic terrorism...and mind you, I've been in many paki gatherings and I know first hand the love pakis have for the islamic jihad thingy..9/11 might have sent their love in the closet especially with the feds listening closely but the love isn't gone..

Firstly you are on shaky grounds trying to convince people that the unequal treatment of other people is unacceptable horrible animalistic and yet the caste system (embodiment and perfection of unequal treatment) needs our greater understanding before being condemned. Even after you exclude shudras' (why? do they not bleed?) the fundamental concept is that people are NOT equal in the eyes of God state or each other and should not be treated as if they are.
Secondly Dhimmitude like i said was never an operational concept in the 800 yeras of mulsim rule in india and anyway that was 200 years ago. I am afraid it can not justify your very heated and prejudiced views on islam today.

laddu:

What I described jazia was the Islamic interpretation. I am sure that the non-muslim interpretaion would be different. I agree with you that it was "protection money" in the sense you interpreted.

While on this topic, I also believe that jazia may have been a major reason for conversion to Islam (Here we all go with our gut feelings because no empirical data are available). The big differene between jazia and zakat, payable by Muslims, is that jazia was a head tax whereas zakat was like an income/wealth tax. A poor non-muslim could convert and, instead of paying jazia, end up receiving the benefits of zakat.

glad to know hindus agree with me: "twice the number of people in India (16pc) than in Pakistan (9pc) felt that war was the only solution to the problems between the two states"

we will visit India only after Kashmir and its muslims are liberated, glad to know over 95% of Pakistanis agree on this.

you know people also say sufis are hindus ...i mean after all our time together its natural we should see a theme, a universal theme and be able to spin an argument around it saying well thats more hindu than muslim, thats more muslim than hindu.

" dont believe in dhimmitude but try as you might you cant convince anyone it was worse than the caste system. "

Caste system is NOT dhimmitude.

Except for the treatment of shudra which actually approaches to that of Zimmis in Islam, rest of the Varnas (not really castes) were no where like zimmis.

Take out the shudra from chatur varna , and caste system looks like the modern day family owned business and intellectual social systems where the sons and daughters 'inherit' their parent's empires.
the Keneddy Family, the clinton family, the nehru family, the bhutto family etc. they all exhibit the presence of continuam of professional traditions like the caste system.

Caste system is NOT like dhmiitude.

Laddu i am sure what you say is not true. Maybe in some context or some conversation, i cant answer for what every hindu has ever said. But i am serious i never even heard of a dhimmi before 911 and i am sure you never did either because it was not an operational concept in Indian history.

clifton bi,

The dhimmi attitude has been so deeply etched in the minds of hindus that they mindlessly accept the thesis that monotheism is some what 'superior'.
So much so that even swamis like Dayanand Saraswati tried to put a "formless God" interpretation of the Vedic deities.

Vedas as clearly product of pagan civilization that was polytheistic and idolatorous. Dhimmification lead to rise of monotheistic trends that we see in some of the post moghul bhakti periods .