A Pakistani-American in India

#440 Posted by dost_mittar

Is it true that even the existing non-muslim places of worship cannot be taller than a mosque on the street? [I am asking this question because I read in a travelogue from Yugoslavia ...]

Dost, what you write above may have been a local peculiarity in the Balkans. I am aware of no such building laws in Pakistan or anywhere else.

On the subject of places of worship of non-Muslims, I had referenced the example of the Caliph Umar Khattab when he was handed over the keys of Jerusalem. He was invited to pray in the Church of Holy Sepulcher, but he declined saying that if he did, his followers would later demolish the church and make a mosque in it's place in his name saying "Umar prayed here". Instead, he prayed in the open outside the church and a mosque was indeed constructed later on that spot named Umar's Mosque, while the Church of Holy Sepulcher stands to this day.

Above is the principle. If there have been deviations from it by over-zealous Muslims, those are just that ... deviations.

Seconly, could you please tell me whether a non-muslim can join the army of a country ruled by sharia. If so, are there any restrictions, e.g joining cavalry or reaching the highest rank?

There are no such restrictions. I can give you the example of the Chief of Air Staff of Pakistan Air Marshal Zafar Ahmad Chaudhry during 1972–1974 who was Qadiani and remained so after Qadianis were declared non-Muslim. Then there was the war hero Cecil Chaudhry who retired as Wing Commander only because of the bigotry of Zia, otherwise he would have reached the highest ranks in the AF. You may argue that Pakistan was not governed by Sharia at the time, but the principles have never been ignored and Qadianis were declared non-Muslim under provisions of Sharia.

Besides that, there are many examples of non-Muslims fighting alongside the early Muslims during Ghazwaat. Notably, Khandaq.

However, the highest position of Amir of an Islamic State is certainly reserved for a Muslim. No question about that.

Hope above is satisfactory.

498 by HP

That is not the case with Hindus in Pakistan especially not in Sindh. I wish you could read sindhi papers and then you would have known how actively Sindhi Hindu participate in the political debate in Sindh.

HP Sahib, I wish you accept the truth at least for once. Minorities everywhere have to live with the predicament of having to be (or at least act) sensitive to the majority community and its views, regardless of their own views and the system. Also, are you sure active participation in politics automatically equates to freedom? If so, why don't you hold the same view WRT India, because Muslims in India too actively participate in politics, yet Pakis never tire of pointing out their second-class status?

As for their conditions in Pakistan, here we have Mariana Baabar and Amir Mir, both Pakis, reporting on the sad plight of Hindus in Sindh, where girls are kidnapped in broad daylight, converted and married off to Muslim men and then blackmailed into not revealing that they were forced into it, and you tell us everything is hunky dory.

Hindus in Pakistan are never blamed for dividing India but Muslims in India regularly are. I hope you understand this difference

I understand the difference. It was Muslims who came up with the demand of Pakistan, and per Yasser, an overwhelming majority of Muslims supported it, even if not all of them could make it to Pakistan (either out of choice or otherwise) when it was eventually created. An overwhelming majority of Hindus opposed Pakistan, so you cannot accuse Hindus of dividing India.

#500 abcd
"Is that the right answer? You'll have to tell me. I wouldn't know by myself.'

You see the post was not addressed to you. There are lots of things beyond the spaghetti you hold up there.

#497
Mera Joshialey bhai,

You are blaming people for "Liquidating millions of Hindus" or 15% of the population and it is your responsibility to prove your claim. I grew up in Sindh where most of the Hindus live and none of my classmate or friend disappeared so far. all Those bastards are still there drinking their regular Whiskey, imported from India.
Btw,
I forgot to mention they always supported Indian cricket team and I do too but only when they are beating the other teams.

#498 Posted by HP

[That is not the case with Hindus in Pakistan especially not in Sindh. I wish you could read sindhi papers and then you would have known how actively Sindhi Hindu participate in the political debate in Sindh. ]

Except they cannot hold most posts of any political significance.

[I agree that circumstance for the Muslims in India and Hindus in Pakistan are entirely different. Hindus in Pakistan are never blamed for dividing India but Muslims in India regularly are. I hope you understand this difference.]

Yes. Ummmmm.... Hindus did not demand a Partition. Muslims did. That's the difference.

Is that the right answer? You'll have to tell me. I wouldn't know by myself.

#496 Posted by HP

[Your post is totally redundant.]

Of course. No doubt. How true.

Harish babu,

That is not the case with Hindus in Pakistan especially not in Sindh. I wish you could read sindhi papers and then you would have known how actively Sindhi Hindu participate in the political debate in Sindh.

I agree that circumstance for the Muslims in India and Hindus in Pakistan are entirely different. Hindus in Pakistan are never blamed for dividing India but Muslims in India regularly are. I hope you understand this difference.

Re: # 492 HP

HP Sain

Looks like you don't understand not because you can't but because you simply wouldn't. The 15% I mentioned was not "15% of Hindus" but 15% of Pakistan's population. Read carefully. That 15% certainly runs into millions. If not, then how much? Curiouly, you have not quoted any figures with any basis whatsoever, except making a far-fetched claim that "numbers don't come to Gujarat level".

The reason for this rampant demagoguery displayed by you is plain as daylight - you (and others of your ilk) are in cahoots with the murderous hordes of Pakistani state, when it comes to the liquidation of Hindus, the dishonest double-talkers and incorrigible liars that you are.

Indian Govt has kept its eyes closed on many things, not only this one. Don't try to lean on Indian Govt when it suits your purpose.

What a shameless lout!

#493
ajaya or abcd,
Time and again you prove that you are not worth my time. The question had the obvious answer. Your post is totally redundant. Anyone with a little brain not spaghetti would have known what the answer was....

HP mian, this predicament is faced by every minority everywhere in the world. Don't tell us Hindus and Christians in Pakistan have it easy. As for Hindus in Sindh, read Mariana Baabar's article on their plight here:

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20060123&fname=Cover+S tory&sid=1

#487
Read this “simple man(?)”

We have a supremely underqualified President who has repeatedly proven his capacity for strategic blundering. We have a pugnacious Vice-President who can only be described at this juncture as a dangerous man, not least as he's likely unwilling to simply fade off-stage into ignominy in an undisclosed location near Casper, Wyoming. We have other assorted national security players (Rice, Hadley, etc) who have repeatedly proven their capacity to kow-tow to higher-ups, even when pursuing grossly misguided policies, at great expense to the national interest.

Given this alarming reality, I'd suggest Democratic Presidential hopefuls stop the sophomoric pissing matches about who might attack Pakistan and under what circumstances. Instead they might deign to focus on the chance that another catastrophe might occur, this time in Iran, because of this Administration's recklessness.

David Gardner recently wrote in the FT:
...US commanders seem to have no trouble detecting the hand of Tehran everywhere. This largely evidence-free blaming of serial setbacks on Iranian forces is a bad case of denial. First, the insurgency is overwhelmingly Iraqi and Sunni, built around a new generation of jihadis created by the US invasion. Second, to the extent foreign fighters are involved these have come mostly from US-allied and Sunni Saudi Arabia, not Shia Iran. Third, the lethal roadside bombs with shaped charges that US officials have coated with a spurious veneer of sophistication to prove Iranian provenance are mostly made by Iraqi army-trained engineers – from high explosive looted from those unsecured arms dumps.

#491 Posted by HP

[Can a Muslim be a Muslim and be loyal to India?]

Not if he truly believes in Islam. Because if he is truly a Muslim, then he has a mandate and an obligation to his cult that is searingly unequivocal and pre-eminent - to convert the land of the unbelievers to the land of the believers.

#489 Posted by subhashjoshi

Joshi babu,

I have caught you lying not once but twice. First you said "Millions of Hindus were liquidated" and then you claimed it was 15%. there is lots of difference in Millions and 15% .

Let me ask you this: how come there are 2.6 million Hindus in Sindh alone now versus 351,000 in 1951?

Millions of people just don’t disappear they leave lots of trace for every one to find the dead bodies. You see even Hitler did not kill millions of Jews in Camps in one day. It took him years to do that and the whole world knew what was going on with Jews.

You think the Indian government would have just closed its eyes on learning about "millions of Hindus liquidated" in Pakistan? Use your head sometime for a change. Silly billy!

I guess by now every one knows that Rediff is my favorite Indian web site. I am not sure about its political leanings but the comment section is pretty revealing.

Today this article appeared on the site. Now I would recommend Pakistanis to read this article and understand the real plight of the Muslims in India. Here is a famous artist from India and you can see his struggle in the society.

Disclaimer: My Older brother and his wife now go to India every year. And they love it. My BIL now has a permanent office in India. We don’t have any blood relations there just some old acquaintances. My brother says Muslims are doing fine there and old Delhi looks like the old Lal Khet in Karachi.

This comment is revealing, “'Aise log Partition ke time mein hi Pakistan jaana chahiye tha.' It is a line, a charge, that must trouble SRK no end, as it does no doubt to millions of other Indians, for it returns to haunt him during the movie.”

SRK and the M word

Saisuresh Sivaswamy | August 13, 2007 18:05 IST
http://www.rediff.com/movies/2007/aug/13sai.htm
“Shah Rukh has, in the past, spoken about his views on Islam, including to us, and they are reflective of the kind of person he is: Easy-going, and married to a Hindu. He is also extremely careful of the kind of roles he plays, and this extreme discretion is the reason -- I think -- that it has taken him this long to play a Muslim.

It cannot be easy to be a Muslim, in India and especially in these times. The moderate Muslim, who is in an overwhelming majority I am certain, has to constantly fight two demons: One from the past, of Partition and his/her perspective on Pakistan, a Muslim-majority nation inimical to India; and another ghost from the present, when Muslims are usually accused of engineering terrorist plots in India. Their silence often is reflective of the silence of the majority, of which we all are guilty of, but the silence of the Muslim is the one that is constantly highlighted.

I am sure SRK himself has had to face this dilemma, this doubt over his commitment to India. And it comes out in a searing line in the movie: 'Aise log Partition ke time mein hi Pakistan jaana chahiye tha.' It is a line, a charge, that must trouble SRK no end, as it does no doubt to millions of other Indians, for it returns to haunt him during the movie.

In my mind, the central theme running through the movie was: Can a Muslim be a Muslim and be loyal to India? Or to modify that, What must a Muslim do in the face of doubts over his loyalty to India?

It's a pressing question, for as SRK stops short of saying in another place, there is no second chance given to Muslims. When his friend, after pitching for SRK as the coach of the national women's team, consoles SRK's past failure by saying everyone is allowed one mistake, Humsab ki ek ghalati maaf, Shah Rukh Khan disagrees wryly: Sabki nahi, sabki nahi.”

#438 Posted by borivili_express

they keep claiming on this site that hindia is booming and that its so strong and will crush the muslims, and yet day and nite they come here crying about muslims hurting them.

Huh? You were the one who came here crying about how justice wasn't done to Muslims and cutting and pasting articles about the Bombay riot victims. Abay jab jhoot bolna hi hai, to kam se soch samajh ke bola kar.

abey agar dum hai to roko.

Pehle dum hai to kuch kar ke dikha, yaa phir aise hi rota rahega?

are you ganpats shameless or brainless?

I don't know but I surely know you're just spineless.

Re: # 380 Tahmed

AFTER 1947, contrary to what you imply, there have been no significant anti-hindu riots in Pakistan (there being very few hindus left after 1947). So what are you talking about?

Can you tell me what Khalid Ahmad is talking about in the following sentence (as I quoted in my post #293):

Kidnapping, extortion, and even killing are, meanwhile, common crimes perpetrated against Hindus in Sindh today.

What I am talking about is not riots, but low-key, regular, systematic liquidation of Hindus, carried out quietly, assisted and connived at not only by the Pakistani state apparatus, but also the double-talking "intellectuals" like HP (the bigger culprits, I must say), who go out of their way to make light of this human (?) tragedy.

And while all this is happening in Pakistan, Pakistanis like you never get tired of shouting "Modi, Modi" and "Gujarat, Gujarat" from rooftops every now and then.