Jinnah and the Islamic State – Setting the Record Straight

“…. Secularism is also just as much about the nature of law as it is about religious freedom. As a philosophy, secularism is fundamentally a post-Enlightenment belief that all laws governing human activities and decisions should be based upon the concept of reasonableness, not upon the orders of some alleged divine authority”.

The above is the best explanation I have ever come across but for the word reasonableness was replaced with justice. Jinnah was a post-enlightened person and an eminent Lawyer and therefore the principle of Justice must have been paramount to him.
One would be correct in saying that there is no country even today, including Scandinavian ones where its moral base is not tinged with ‘religion’.

His statement of "Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests” is very significant, particularly when one notes the words -theocracy and priests -which is a clear reference to church (Iqbal also calls it a church), and its operatives who we know are shackled to the centuries old Sharia and beleve it to be divine.
Significantly he differentiated between “Religion” and Islam where the dignity of mankind is supreme. And the State is charged with the responsibility of maintaining it.

As an outsider I believe that if the company of Nehru and Jinnah were to have survived for few years longer sans Mahatmaji religiosity, the relation between India and Pakistan might have been based on different paradigms altogether as compared to today—that is two siblings-- differences not with standing, choosing to live separately in their own houses with their famil;ies, for they had a lot in common.
Rashid

and still some people say..why we divided....

these baighairats sikhs and hindus would have cut us all..if we had not dividedin 1947...

O thanks Jinnah once again..you weer great ..you saw ..behnd the walls...and saved 30 crore muslims of Pakistan and Bangladesh....

Re: # 198 how shameful all this report...

i give salute to great Jinnah..who saved us from baighairat sikhs and hindus...

#183 Posted by echoboom

[Keep digging.Keep writing....Let the Secularoons have it at both ends. ]

You must be really dumb. Read the newspaper reports and add it all up. The people that are dying most, every day, are MUSLIMS.

It is YOU guys who are getting it at both ends - Shias from Sunnis, Sunnis from Shias, both from American Soldiers, from Indian soldiers, from Musharraf's soldiers, from Mubarak's soldiers, from Chinese soldiers, from Russian soldiers, from Serbian soldiers.... and so on.

Then count how many non-Muslims are dying. MUCH fewer in number.

Do the math. It is YOU guys that are taking it from both ends while spouting Jehadi nonsense. And the worst part is, there are no Houris or Ghilmans at the end of the tunnel. All of that's a lie, by the way, if you haven't figured it out. Stop thinking with your penis and endangering your own life and others'.

Stop being a loser, and fulfill your potential to become a human being. It will be a steep uphill climb, but it will be worth it.

For all muslims:

Read the Srikrishna report written by a judge on massacre of muslims in broad day light under directives of state administration, police and shiv sena in Bombay

http://www.sabrang.com/srikrish/sri%20main.htm


in Gujarat it is even worse they raped and cut open the beliies of pregnant muslim women and innocent childrens genital were cut, they raped girls infront of their mother and fathers and burnt them alive or cut them with swords read it yourself.

http://coalitionagainstgenocide.org/reports/2002/uscirf.10jun2002.n ajid.pdf

http://www.sabrang.com/tribunal/volI/incipanchmahal.html

http://h rw.org/press/2002/04/gujarat.htm

http://india.indymedia.org/en/newswire/archi ve38.shtml

They burnt down thousands of crores of muslim business's got the records from the municipality and thewas done under the directives of the state police and government.

They also imposed a boycott on doing business with muslims, so that muslims can not recover after their business were looted and burnt.

For all muslims:

Read the Srikrishna report written by a judge on massacre of muslims in broad day light under directives of state administration, police and shiv sena in Bombay

http://www.sabrang.com/srikrish/sri%20main.htm


in Gujarat it is even worse they raped and cut open the beliies of pregnant muslim women and innocent childrens genital were cut, they raped girls infront of their mother and fathers and burnt them alive or cut them with swords read it yourself.

http://coalitionagainstgenocide.org/reports/2002/uscirf.10jun2002.n ajid.pdf

http://www.sabrang.com/tribunal/volI/incipanchmahal.html

http://h rw.org/press/2002/04/gujarat.htm

http://india.indymedia.org/en/newswire/archi ve38.shtml

They burnt down thousands of crores of muslim business's got the records from the municipality and thewas done under the directives of the state police and government.

They also imposed a boycott on doing business with muslims, so that muslims can not recover after their business were looted and burnt.

http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/246411



Not the best thing to share on Independent day of neighbouring country, but couldn't resist. It might be just staring this way that people are hiding their ID as some poor desis do in west. But by looking at the dire situation of Muslims in general in India, this doesn't come as a shocker. Muslims are equally responsible for their current state. They didn't do enough to vamp up their youths in education, after 5 generations, they are still paying for it.



Fearful Muslims adopt Hindu IDs


In India, many members of religious minority hide the signs of their faith to escape discrimination

August 15, 2007
Shaikh Azizur Rahman
SPECIAL TO THE STAR




CALCUTTA–On a busy street in Calcutta's business district, he runs a food stall called "Rajib's Paratha" and is known as Rajib Mallick.




Using the popular Hindu name, no one suspects he is Rajab Ali Mollah, a Muslim who has adopted a fictitious identity to blend in with the neighbourhood's mostly Hindu office workers.




Sohrab Hossain, a Muslim student who came to the city to complete his Masters degree in English and lives in a Hindu-dominated housing complex, is known as Sourav Das among the students he tutors. To keep up his Hindu appearance he has a small idol of Saraswati, the Hindu goddess of learning, on his desk.




Every morning as she prepares to go to work as a fishmonger, Hasina Khatoon takes off her silver armband embossed with "Allah" in Arabic, puts vermillion powder on her forehead and red-white conch bangles on her wrist – symbols of a married Hindu woman – to maintain a Hindu appearance in a fish market where almost all of her customers are Hindus.




Rajab Mollah, Sohrab Hossain and Hasina Khatoon say they have adopted new identities in a Hindu-majority society where as Muslims they would face discrimination.



Analysts say many Muslims from all socio-economic backgrounds are quietly hiding their religious affiliation.




"Muslims in almost all spheres of life face a communal discrimination by powerful Hindus and they are denied many of their basic rights and freedom in an unjustified way," said Anjan Basu, a social analyst and executive editor of Pratidin, a Bengali daily in Calcutta.



Six decades after Partition, "many (Hindus) believe that Pakistan was created for Muslims and now they do not have right to live in India, which is meant for Hindus."




The Partition of India 60 years ago was a highly controversial arrangement, and remains a cause of much tension on the subcontinent today.




Basu, who is a Hindu, also said discrimination has been "institutionalized," with many Muslims being denied employment in government and private-sector offices where 90 to 95 per cent jobs are held by Hindus.




Gautam Ray, a senior journalist with Calcutta's largest Bengali daily Anandabazar Patrika, said that since the bulk of the dalits (low-caste Hindus or so-called Untouchables) converted to Islam when the religion spread in India, many upper-caste Hindus look down on Muslims as they had for generations looked down on dalits.




"The root of this communal discrimination is deeply entrenched in the society and most of these communal Hindus are not expected to change their feeling for Muslims any time soon," said Ray, who is also an upper-caste Hindu. "Muslims are often denied housing in Hindu-dominated modern residential complexes," he added.




"This communal discrimination against Muslims will not end unless Hindus themselves change their attitude. But we do not see hope of any such positive social change anytime soon."




Muslims who adopted fake Hindu identities believe they did nothing wrong by hiding their original identities.





"Ten years ago, when my house and land in the village was eaten up by a river and I came to Calcutta in search of a job, almost all street shops and restaurants in the city refused to employ me because I was a Muslim," Mollah said.




"Some said their Hindu customers could refuse to eat at their restaurants if a Muslim worked there," he said.




"But I met a Muslim man who worked under a Hindu identity to supply water to restaurants. I followed his advice, picked up a Hindu identity and soon an upper-class Hindu employed me to run a food stall."




Nearly all of Mollah's customers are Hindus and he fears his business would suffer disastrously if his customers found out he is a Muslim.




"I don't think I have done anything wrong because I know how they hate Muslims simply because of their religion," he added.




A federal commission recently found that Muslims "live in socio-economic conditions worse than many so-called backward tribal people," according to commission chief Rajendra Sachar, a former judge.



In the state of West Bengal, where the Muslim community makes up 27 per cent of the population, employment of Muslims in the government sector was below 3 per cent, the Sachar Commission reported.

Some Muslim leaders see education as the key to a better future.





"If the younger generation can educate themselves, it will be difficult for even the most communal Hindus to discriminate against a new Muslim force," said Nazrul Islam, a senior public servant and noted Calcutta writer.



"Maybe discrimination will not be wiped out completely, but an educated and powerful community of Muslims will be able to fight off the injustice, at least to a good extent."



this Article is taken from pakistan greatest forum ...

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=261635

Re: # 186 exactly...tahst why Justice Rana Bhagwandas was most powerful man of Pakistan for 4 months..but these makkars hindus and sikhs ..just shameless over thier dhoti walai makkar ledaers when they compare them with man of dignity ..respect and beauty..the prince of india..Jinnah...

#104 Posted by Ranjit


“Gandhi is a very complex figure in history and I doubt that most people understand him properly.”
“However, at some point in his life he began to change. Perhaps it was his bitter experience in South Africa. No one knows exactly when the change happened, but he started going back to his roots.”
“Therefore, Gandhi was an unique politician while Nehru, Jinnah etc were typical run of the mill politicians who wanted to curry favor with the british with the objective of inherting the empire from the british by proving their impeccable brown sahib credentials.”

Your all three statements lack any substance. First, what are most people? The people who follow politics and pay attention to details have no problem figuring out Gandhi.

Please remember first and foremost he was a politician. He was not a saint or has no unearthly or saintly miracles to show. There was noting supernatural in his politics. He was a thoughtful man and planned his moves. And, like many smart and astute politicians learned to speak in measured tone.

Your idea that at some point of time he began to change again lacks substance. Gandhi had learned politics in South Africa and he was experienced in leading people. In South Africa, his politics complied with the norms of South African political scene. Wear suites, speak English and move the courts when in need. If he had followed the same pattern in India, he would have been just another Jinnah or any other suited booted Indian politician. He knew to grab the political mental in India, he will need to be more in line with the populace in India, hence his dhoti and nakedness.

When Jinnah wanted to be the leader of Muslims, he switched to Sherwani and Shalwar. Another suited booted leader Nehru also switched to Pajama Kurta and Vest coat.

Politicians do that to be more in line with their audience. Gandhi took it to extreme by cleaning the toilets and that created an aura and a halo effect that you and others still can’t shake off.
He was no different than Jinnah and Nehru.

I don’t have time now, got to read some more papers and blogs but will come back to it, if you are interested.

Re: # 188 you are right..india is pure hindu state...by calling it secular..is just dramai bazi of hindu janta ..and hindutava ..so that they can deceive the world..when they burn christians missonaries and muslims of gujrat....

as makkars qaum...do...usually..its thier nature....makkari ..ayyari..chalaki....

Re: # 161 yes Zeemax..i fully agree....

Re: # 174
Yes he did and it is on page 305 of Stanley Wolpert's book ' Jinnah of Pakistan'. According to Notes at the end of the book, these remarks are attributed to , Reuter's "Report of Jinnah's Meeting in Cairo", in Atique Z. Sheikh and M.R.Malik, eds. ' Quaid-e-Azam and the Muslm World: Selected Documents' ( Karachi \: Royal Book Co. 1978)p. 166.

#176 by cliftonbridge

Where the goal for prosperity as seen by enlightened folk just like you is the destruction of islam and conversion of muslims in the name of a "balanced" society?

Conversion of Muslims? Not just Jinnah, now I feel even you are speaking out of your you-know-what. Can you please put let us know of a single instance of a Muslim being converted to any other religion in India? Thanks in advance.

#108

Ranjit:

"The fundamental thing to analyze is what was happening... They suffered from acute poverty both physical and intellectual. They had an overwhelming inferiority complex, especially about the westerners who were percieved as superior beings with a superior culture."

This is cliched, Ranjit. British period for the hindus in India was a kind of renaissance period after a long slumber.

Political awareness came before Gandhi - Gokhale, Tilak and a couple of bengali leaders, their names slips my memory. Even Jinnah was there before Gandhi. As Yasser rightly points out, he was an ardent nationalist at that time. Field also includes Dadabhoy Nauroji, and Madam Kama. Social reformer - Raja Ram Mohan Roy. Cultutal and Literary - Tagore, Science - Jagdish Chandra Bose, and other Bose of Bose-Einstein fame.

What I have not been able to find is once the decline of the Mughals had set in, why Hindus could not come in to fill it?

Shivaji and Gurugobind Singh were two isolated exampleries, in this decline period.

All that you read in history during this pre-British period is mainly about Mughal affluence and decadence. There is not much that I have been able to find about the majority who were certainly not muslims.

I suspect that it is in this period of the Mughal decline - those hindus who supported, and in the preceding period, majority suffered the most. Therefore, could not provide leadership - much like Baath Party and Iraqi army who was fired en masse.

After all, by default the majority must be producing the most as well. Where were the economic gains in those days, and how were they distributed?

Military power, other than guerillas (= Shivaji, and Guru Gobind Singh), was getting fragmented. This too was in Aurangzeb's time when the decline started. Even Nizam came into being as a result of this fragmentation. Other than Ranjit Singh there was no one to challenge.

If you now complete the jig-saw puzzle, you may agree that the British provided a renaissance for hindus.

Your point about Gandhi is very well made. Althoug I do get a feeling that at many times he was more interested in reforming Hindu society, and taking others in as necessary components. I made the same point about his views on African Blacks to Yasser earlier, to inline with contemporary to his time. I asked him to produce a single quote from Jinnah on this topic, because I could not find. Neither could he. Jinnah being from rich ismailie community must have contacts with others who were even then spread out in Africa. Furthermore, he being an outspoken liberal, his silence cannot be taken as he being non-conformist to the prevalent view on African race. I have a lecture that Mandela gave to Indian community in South Africa. He certainly refers to Gandhi in very reverend terms, and acknowledged his knowledge of Gandhi's utterances on African Blacks.

If you are arguing "secular" as a constitutional thing then you'd be hard pressed to prove pakistan does not belive in EQUAL treatment to minorities. If you are arguing that there are hate crimes in pakistan then save your breath ....if indian society is your definition of secular then i am against it.

:
Statistics compiled by India's National Crime Records Bureau indicate that in the year 2000, the last year for which figures are available, 25,455 crimes were committed against Dalits. Every hour two Dalits are assaulted; every day three Dalit women are raped, two Dalits are murdered, and two Dalit homes are torched.

No one believes these numbers are anywhere close to the reality of crimes committed against Dalits. Because the police, village councils, and government officials often support the caste system, which is based on the religious teachings of Hinduism, many crimes go unreported due to fear of reprisal, intimidation by police, inability to pay bribes demanded by police, or simply the knowledge that the police will do nothing.

"There have been large-scale abuses by the police, acting in collusion with upper castes, including raids, beatings in custody, failure to charge offenders or investigate reported crimes," said Narula.

That same year, 68,160 complaints were filed against the police for activities ranging from murder, torture, and collusion in acts of atrocity, to refusal to file a complaint. Sixty two percent of the cases were dismissed as unsubstantiated; 26 police officers were convicted in court.

Despite the fact that untouchability was officially banned when India adopted its constitution in 1950, discrimination against Dalits remained so pervasive that in 1989 the government passed legislation known as The Prevention of Atrocities Act. The act specifically made it illegal to parade people naked through the streets, force them to eat feces, take away their land, foul their water, interfere with their right to vote, and burn down their homes.

"muslims, to a large extent, are against secular governance and society"

1.Muslims to a large extent have not gone to college which is an islamic ideal. What is now will not always be.
2.Secular muslims to a whole extent are against being persecuted for their religious beliefs, and that will never change.