Jinnah and the Islamic State – Setting the Record Straight

Re: # 148

That is a remarkable piece of information.

It is quite clear then that Jinnah believed in a secular state and saw no contradiction with his Islamic faith and his championing of the Muslim cause.

SOME DEFINITIONS:

Secularism: The state will not enact any law that has its ethical basis in any religious teachings.


Political Islam: The state will not enact any law that contradicts the commands of Allah and His Prophet Mohammad (pbuh).

So do Muslims have a choice to chose between way of Shaytan who offers the way of evil wrapped in enticing names or to submit to the will of Allah and Prophet (pbuh). Your first response is the right answer.

What happened to all those who were the major players of 1971 war and seperation of Bangla Desh....









*Sh.Mujeeb-ur-Rehman

Killed by his own army in 1975...and for 3 days...nobody was willing to bury his dead body...His whole family...except his little daughter...h.Haseena wajid ...due to out of country survived.....










*Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto

one of the most popular leader of pakistan political history...but when nature came in real mode...he was hanged ...on gallows..despite of whole world sympathies with him....His two sons kiled brutally...and his daughter ....kicked out of government for 2 times..shamelessly...and cannot see the Pakistani Land...for 11 years.....











*Russia...

was mainly involve in support with india...to block Pakistan ...Air Force with AWACS techniques....but it was Pakistan single agency ISI..who shattered the world supreme power into 26 pieces.....











*Indhara Gandhi

The PM of India..in 1971..and said that we have drowned the 2 Nation theory in bay of Bengal today...wasd killedin bomb attacked by a sikh of golden temple scenario...his two sons also killed ...Rajeev gandhi...and one in plane crash...etc.....












Did NATURE spare anyone ...who was enemy of pakistan.....


The biggest transfer of population of human history took place in 1947 at pakistan Creation...about 1 crore people moved across the borders....











About 40,00 or more women were kidnapped in east punjab of india....and forcibly married to sikhs...and still some of them are alive as Sikhs grandmaothers.....











About 10 lakh people killed ...mostly muslims ...for this country.....










thousands of innocent girls jumped into well so taht hindus or sikhs could not touch them......












Are all these things happened for nothing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



http://www.alldost.com/blogs/starsandhearts

whats this green lush colour representative of.....

whats this white represents the noor of a hoor .....




Dr.Muhammad Muzaffar Mirza...one of the top historian ...philosopher and intellectual...and younger brother of legendary Dr. Mirza Munawwar(late) .....have written that in 2005...one night....quaid-e-Azam ...came into my dream...he used to come ...in my life ....but this time after a long time ......



He said...Muzaffar..do you know...what this white and green represents....they represent the Green tomb of Prophet(pbuh) in madina...which green in dominantas compared to white(Gunbad-e-Khizra).....




27 of Ramazan...the most sacred night of the year...with more than 1000 monts...as in Sura Qadar...with many signs of coming into existence from Prophet(pbuh) .... like

*Hussain Ahmed Madni
*Zafar Ali Khan
*Ashraf Ali Thanvi
*Iqbal
*Hasrat Mohani

etc etc.....



After 1400 years ..first time in history...after the state of Madina...only 1 state that came into being in the name of Ideology..was Pakistan....and after 1 year....one another state ...on the name of Ideology...israel....after 2000 years of Diaspora of jews....


Clearly shows...the real mania will be between these two states...near end of times...at Armegadon.....



Not jocking....crystal clear evidences and proofs....confirm that.....The fire is already burning in Middle East.....Iran..Iraq...Syria...Turkey....palestine...Lebanon....all are in the line of fire....and jews === USA (no difference) ...are on thier ways...The stage for Dajjal is already created...and forces of evil and good are already in Iraq...eyes to eyes.....



The situation in Pakistan is changing drastically...political scenario is amalguming into judical blend.....and lights of freedom and power are dancing in the darkness of 60 years long era.....







Time is calling us...decisive moments are approaching fastly....lets prepare to do what Pakistan is created for..... The white star and moon....the green lush image is going to play the leading role in it.....



and whole of our life is woven between these stars of Pakistan ...and burning fires of our hearts....

whats this green lush colour representative of.....

whats this white represents the noor of a hoor .....




Dr.Muhammad Muzaffar Mirza...one of the top historian ...philosopher and intellectual...and younger brother of legendary Dr. Mirza Munawwar(late) .....have written that in 2005...one night....quaid-e-Azam ...came into my dream...he used to come ...in my life ....but this time after a long time ......



He said...Muzaffar..do you know...what this white and green represents....they represent the Green tomb of Prophet(pbuh) in madina...which green in dominantas compared to white(Gunbad-e-Khizra).....




27 of Ramazan...the most sacred night of the year...with more than 1000 monts...as in Sura Qadar...with many signs of coming into existence from Prophet(pbuh) .... like

*Hussain Ahmed Madni
*Zafar Ali Khan
*Ashraf Ali Thanvi
*Iqbal
*Hasrat Mohani

etc etc.....



After 1400 years ..first time in history...after the state of Madina...only 1 state that came into being in the name of Ideology..was Pakistan....and after 1 year....one another state ...on the name of Ideology...israel....after 2000 years of Diaspora of jews....


Clearly shows...the real mania will be between these two states...near end of times...at Armegadon.....



Not jocking....crystal clear evidences and proofs....confirm that.....The fire is already burning in Middle East.....Iran..Iraq...Syria...Turkey....palestine...Lebanon....all are in the line of fire....and jews === USA (no difference) ...are on thier ways...The stage for Dajjal is already created...and forces of evil and good are already in Iraq...eyes to eyes.....



The situation in Pakistan is changing drastically...political scenario is amalguming into judical blend.....and lights of freedom and power are dancing in the darkness of 60 years long era.....







Time is calling us...decisive moments are approaching fastly....lets prepare to do what Pakistan is created for..... The white star and moon....the green lush image is going to play the leading role in it.....



and whole of our life is woven between these stars of Pakistan ...and burning fires of our hearts....

Rozaiba #148 well said. The word 'Secular' is anathema to the maudoodite since it means sharing power equally among all citizens, and not giving the maudoodite a veto authority over this power.

Mantolives writes:

"I for one don't have a problem with you calling Jinnah's inclusive democratic state which keeps faith out of major policy considerations an Islamic state... it might be true that Islam actually envisages such a state... Holy Prophet's Mesaq-e-Medina certainly did... to me this constitutes secularism."

Actually alot of Muslims don't have a problems with this. Abdur Rehman Wahid, former president of Indonesia and the most respected Islamic scholar heading the largest Islamic organization network in the world (70 million member plus), Nahdlat-ul-Ulema, claims in the book 'Politics of Islam' that an Islamic state has to be secular. Yes, he uses the word 'secular'.

Unfortunately Maududi and his filth cannot digest this and prefer to consider their rag-tag terrorism-friendly outfits who enjoy the delusions of 7th century desert outposts, a true representation of what Islam means.

Since, according to jihadi2, the US isn't secular maybe he should be forced to eat pork and attend church...since he's taking the "separation of church and state aren't in the constitution" line most often used by the christian fundamentalists...

trust me...pork is goooood...I'm sure there are plenty of places that will make a good ham sandwich for a paki cab driver on the go...


Manto: The phrase "separation of church and state" doesn't exist in the US constitution but it clearly is the guiding principle of the US...

Re: # 145

Mian Bulleya,

While I appreciate your belated discovery of a spine... I would like you to answer my post (to me you are as much a falsifier of history as mohar11 or atif2):


#111 Posted by MantoLives on August 15, 2007 2:20:41 am
Bulleya,

I am not sure where you drew that conclusion from. You have a curious habit of inventing myths and breaking them.

The argument is and always has been very simple:

a. Jinnah- the one time secular Indian nationalist- championed the cause of Muslim minority in United India. His struggle was for and on behalf of the Muslim people(s) who he termed a nation so that there may be a consociationalist solution at the centre.

b. As a result of Jinnah's efforts, Pakistan was created advertently or inadvertently... and Jinnah was opposed by all theocrats.

c. Jinnah spoke consistently of a Pakistan where the state would be impartial to faith of the citizen, where minorities would have equal rights and where priests with a divine mission will not run the state.

Now that c. is what the contention is about. Most people would say that this amounts to a secular state. Jinnah himself knew - as a lawyer- that legally anything that is not theocratic is by default secular. However... I for one have NEVER had any qualms with those who wish to call such a state Islamic. But where the hell is such a state? Atleast make it before you declare it secular or Islamic.

Now coming to your equally ignorant argument about the word secularism... could you produce a single artefact from say the foundation documents of the United States which has the word "secular" or "secularism". How about France? Does the word secular or any french variant thereof appear in the original declaration?

The issue of secularism has always been a separation of Church and State- thus a secular state is:

1. One without a clergy determining law of the state.

2. One where the state is impartial to a person's faith.

3. One where all citizens are equal before law.

4. Sovereignty rests with the people.


Now...

1. "In any event Pakistan is nto going to be a theocratic state to be run by priests with a divine mission".

2. "You may belong to any religion caste or creed- that has nothing to do with the business of the state"

3. Numerous statements quoted in #1.

4. Read Jinnah's interview with Doon Campbell where he says sovereignty will rest unconditionally with the people.


Now all you can prove by Jinnah's references to Islamic ideals and Quran etc can only prove that Islam endorses above mentioned principles... but it cannot prove the opposite no matter how much you try.

The litmus test will be to show a single act or piece of legislation by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly that sought to Islamise the Constitution or Civil or criminal laws.... under Jinnah- who was a powerful civilian ruler.

Objectives Resolution- passed after Jinnah's death- marked a departure from these principles enunciated by Jinnah...

Not only that it violated the basic principle on which you created Pakistan:

No permanent majority by sheer majority can dictate to a permanent minority

Secular, religious or something else this was the only principle Pakistan was created on. The objectives resolution was voted against by all Non-Muslims and one Muslim League Muslim as well. Therein lies the irony of those who claim nonsense like you've done in your post.


Quaid-e-Azam Mahomed Ali Jinnah stood unequivocally for the kind of system which would be described in modern parlance as a secular democracy. If it could be defined as an Islamic democracy as well just proves that Islamic democracy is a fancy term for Secular democracy. Jinnah certainly thought his vision was compatible with Islam...

The real question we should be asking is that whether Jinnah was right in proclaiming his essentially secular vision of the state as Islamic?

I think this article also argues the same thing.

mohar11 #: "J-man talked about koran, islam all the time - "islam is in danger" was his rallying motto... compared to that his talks on secularism were few and far between..."

i have to say there is nothing more interesting and entertaining than reading the comments of individuals who have an agenda, and are trying their best to twist and turn facts, to prove their points......

J-man did talk about islam and quran quite a bit (though not all the time).....at least in public......and he talked about it far more than anyone who, as public policy, is pushing secularism.......no one pushing secularism would mention islam, as a basis of social or political policy, so much.......

however, he never talked about, "islam in danger"......once again, much like i have challenged the secular falsifiers to highlight where in the history of pakistan's creation, the term, "Secularism" was used, i would like to challenge you to highlight, where, "islam is in danger" is used.....at least where did jinnah use it?

......the answer is he never used it.......now, you can, like those arguing the opposing side, twist and turn and connect and deduce and calculate and weave his other statements to reach the conclusion you have reached.....much like those oppoosing your views are doing to reach their secular conclusions.......

but you would be as wrong as them.......at best it will be a personal opinion on your part, which would, factually, only be applicable to you.......it would not be an actual fact.....

the other option is to, as i stated, let us all know, where j-man said that islam is in danger......i tend to prefer this direct and factual approach.....

p.s. please don't tell us that in afghanistan or saudi arabia, no one ever said that, "islam is in danger," however they still have shariah governments, because they mention islam and quran a lot.....hence j-man didn't need to say it, either......even though, "islam is in danger" is what he meant, because that is what afghanistan and saudi arabian leaders mean.....

i will expect a better argument than this from you.....such arguments are for those who have no other argument.....

Yes Atif yes you are a vandal of history indeed.

So if Ataturk implemented it... and Jinnah described Ataturk as the greatest Musalman of the age and an example for Indian Muslims .... what does that mean?

Don't tell me that Jinnah didn't know anything about Turkey because you just said that Jinnah had enough rationale after Ataturk's implementation.

1. This is an academic discussion.

2. The issue is not what Pakistan is but about the historical figure called Jinnah.

3. Since I don't ascribe to Ahmadi beliefs I am not an Ahmadi Muslim.

atif #141 any thoughts on my post #117?

Manto thunders in #139 "Resorting to simple arguments like ... Jinnah didn't use the word secular in public... is ironic because in that case neither the US nor France are secular because their founding documents don't use the word secular either."

One thing that internet has done is that it has made the cost of obtaining information affordable to masses. And hence, the "enlightened" elite and other pretenders can no longer have a free run at creating smoke screens to make their arguments appear grand.

If the american and french founding documents do not contain the term "secularism", then there is a good reason for it. The term "secularism" was first coined and used by the British writer George Holyoake in 1846 (as per wikipedia)...a full 70 years AFTER the founding of America.

But what is more damaging to your (left over) credibility is the fact that the term "secularism" was coined a full 101 years BEFORE the creation of Pakistan. Not only that, Ataturk had went ahead and even IMPLEMENTED it, thus giving Jinnah good rational, opportunity and plenty of excuse to use the word "secularism", if he so desired.

Unfortunately for you, he never did.

But more appropriately for you, the term "vandal of history" was coined by Atif2 on August 12th 2007.

YLH

Read my 138, 134, 130, 121... also - read the reality - pakiland is a theocracy, you are a non-muslim being a qadiani, and J-man is dead... :)

Re: # 137

You still don't have the facts. You have emotive arguments that don't make sense.

Jinnah's vision of the state as an inclusive democratic impartial state is a fact. You guys can go on jumping about assuming that Jinnah's references to Islamic democracy and Islamic principles of equality fraternity and justice... but in the end unless you are arguing that Jinnah's ideas of equality of citizenship and state's indifference to personal faith is an Islamic vision you don't have a point. This Islamic vision thus fits the definition of a secular state.

I for one don't have a problem with you calling Jinnah's inclusive democratic state which keeps faith out of major policy considerations an Islamic state... it might be true that Islam actually envisages such a state... Holy Prophet's Mesaq-e-Medina certainly did... to me this constitutes secularism.

Resorting to simple arguments like ... Jinnah didn't use the word secular in public... is ironic because in that case neither the US nor France are secular because their founding documents don't use the word secular either.

At the root of all this is this belief that secularism is inherently anti-religion... the principle of state's impartiality - in Jinnah's view clearly- was not anti-Islam.


Mohar11,

Read my post 131...