Jinnah and the Islamic State – Setting the Record Straight

What are you complaining about mohar? that is your vision for the subcontinent as you just stated. Jinnah just verbalised what you people say and that makes HIM the aggressor? ....this is just too easy.

what? hindu empire will drown islam in middle east?... :)

First try to deny that you would want to. You will have a hard time pretending so after publically stating that detroying islam is the only way towards sanity and balance.
After that either admit that you are an exceptionally hatefull individual or admit that you are infact the vast majority of indian hindu's who are venomously intolerant of islam and consider that "secular" thinking.

Cliftonbridge:171

can you believe at both things at the same time? i.e islamic principles and some western inspired ideolgies ?
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Yes , of course! & be proud of it but if not in the "WEST" then one should never do it at the expense of "EAST".

IN quraanic terms the very concept of East & West is ridiculous..but we use the terms to convey a certain meanings with wich we have impregnated these words.

" Verily for Allah are the East & the West; you may face whichever way, it really makes no difference".

and are there not muslims, in fact some of them much better muslims than myself I think, who are Americans & British ..I mean kalay gorays? Martin Lings, Yvonne Ridley , Yusuf Islam are some contemporary ones.

And who does not dream as an individual or a collective to do things their own way..to put up a better show than whatever is being played? So one can be "with" it and at the same time work "towards" it.

"Har Cheez hai mehv-i Khuud nuumaee
Zarra Zarra shaheed-e Kibraa-ee"
...................................ALLAMA Iqbal

tr:
Every thing wants to put a show of its own
Each speck of dust is a witness to His Greatness"

and as the crooner said : " I did it MY way"

#172 tejpal

[If a Hindu empire is achieved, it would mean the end of Islam in India, and even in other Muslim countries.]

Did the dead man REALLY say that?! It reminds me of the type of crap those bigots from the American south used to jibe - with the unmistakable that if blacks obtain equality, it will result in widespread raping of the pristine (white) ladies! :)

My estimation of the dead man just took another beating! Good Lord!

#171 Posted by cliftonbridge on August 15, 2007 6:19:11 pm


being muslim in itself means being against secular governance right?


Of all the muslim countries in the world, how many are secular democracies?

yes...muslims, to a large extent, are against secular governance and society...we see that with muslims in the west too...won't use sanitizing gel during hospital visits because it has alcohol...etc etc

tejpal:172

I have always valued the input by hindus here, including those of arjun2...because the stuff you guys dig out corroborates what b muslims say, have always clamoured for and will continue to aspire for the ideals Jinnah has suggested ever so frequently.

What you write may not be palateable for non-muslims or the Kanjaroons in Pakistan but it is dainty-dish for the muslim palate.

Keep digging.Keep writing....Let the Secularoons have it at both ends.

Re: # 10

bulleya

I fully agree with you when you say:

"Using Jinnah's lines to push secularism or shariah in Pakistan is, thus, being historically and journalistically irresponsible........."

I would say: What has secularism, Shariah has to do with the state. In fact the Islamic Allah had no idea whatsoever of the nation state as such which Jinnah had intended to establish. Thinking of a tribal society of 7th century for providing any guidelines for a social and political system in this age of globalization is, to say the least,sheer anachronistic which only an Abujehl could think of.

arjun now you are just being silly. Ypur idea of secular does not exist outside of china.

Is the US a secular state? Is the american government debating evolution? Does God reportedly speak to the american president? Is christianity the state religion in america? are homosexuals denied marriage in the eyes of the state in most area's?
is israel a secular state? how come its got a state religion? Do jews even in america work on the sabbath day, do they accept pork based insulin? do they insist on kosher? Do most hospitals in new york have a sabbath elevator?

once again you are confusing secular with atheist.

Echo sahab i agree. This is why its a pointless debate. Like countless other muslims Jinnah clearly believed in a state religion but EQUAL (not just reasonable) rights to nonmuslims. Thats the essence of secular and the only definition that matters.

"muslims, to a large extent, are against secular governance and society"

1.Muslims to a large extent have not gone to college which is an islamic ideal. What is now will not always be.
2.Secular muslims to a whole extent are against being persecuted for their religious beliefs, and that will never change.

If you are arguing "secular" as a constitutional thing then you'd be hard pressed to prove pakistan does not belive in EQUAL treatment to minorities. If you are arguing that there are hate crimes in pakistan then save your breath ....if indian society is your definition of secular then i am against it.

:
Statistics compiled by India's National Crime Records Bureau indicate that in the year 2000, the last year for which figures are available, 25,455 crimes were committed against Dalits. Every hour two Dalits are assaulted; every day three Dalit women are raped, two Dalits are murdered, and two Dalit homes are torched.

No one believes these numbers are anywhere close to the reality of crimes committed against Dalits. Because the police, village councils, and government officials often support the caste system, which is based on the religious teachings of Hinduism, many crimes go unreported due to fear of reprisal, intimidation by police, inability to pay bribes demanded by police, or simply the knowledge that the police will do nothing.

"There have been large-scale abuses by the police, acting in collusion with upper castes, including raids, beatings in custody, failure to charge offenders or investigate reported crimes," said Narula.

That same year, 68,160 complaints were filed against the police for activities ranging from murder, torture, and collusion in acts of atrocity, to refusal to file a complaint. Sixty two percent of the cases were dismissed as unsubstantiated; 26 police officers were convicted in court.

Despite the fact that untouchability was officially banned when India adopted its constitution in 1950, discrimination against Dalits remained so pervasive that in 1989 the government passed legislation known as The Prevention of Atrocities Act. The act specifically made it illegal to parade people naked through the streets, force them to eat feces, take away their land, foul their water, interfere with their right to vote, and burn down their homes.

#108

Ranjit:

"The fundamental thing to analyze is what was happening... They suffered from acute poverty both physical and intellectual. They had an overwhelming inferiority complex, especially about the westerners who were percieved as superior beings with a superior culture."

This is cliched, Ranjit. British period for the hindus in India was a kind of renaissance period after a long slumber.

Political awareness came before Gandhi - Gokhale, Tilak and a couple of bengali leaders, their names slips my memory. Even Jinnah was there before Gandhi. As Yasser rightly points out, he was an ardent nationalist at that time. Field also includes Dadabhoy Nauroji, and Madam Kama. Social reformer - Raja Ram Mohan Roy. Cultutal and Literary - Tagore, Science - Jagdish Chandra Bose, and other Bose of Bose-Einstein fame.

What I have not been able to find is once the decline of the Mughals had set in, why Hindus could not come in to fill it?

Shivaji and Gurugobind Singh were two isolated exampleries, in this decline period.

All that you read in history during this pre-British period is mainly about Mughal affluence and decadence. There is not much that I have been able to find about the majority who were certainly not muslims.

I suspect that it is in this period of the Mughal decline - those hindus who supported, and in the preceding period, majority suffered the most. Therefore, could not provide leadership - much like Baath Party and Iraqi army who was fired en masse.

After all, by default the majority must be producing the most as well. Where were the economic gains in those days, and how were they distributed?

Military power, other than guerillas (= Shivaji, and Guru Gobind Singh), was getting fragmented. This too was in Aurangzeb's time when the decline started. Even Nizam came into being as a result of this fragmentation. Other than Ranjit Singh there was no one to challenge.

If you now complete the jig-saw puzzle, you may agree that the British provided a renaissance for hindus.

Your point about Gandhi is very well made. Althoug I do get a feeling that at many times he was more interested in reforming Hindu society, and taking others in as necessary components. I made the same point about his views on African Blacks to Yasser earlier, to inline with contemporary to his time. I asked him to produce a single quote from Jinnah on this topic, because I could not find. Neither could he. Jinnah being from rich ismailie community must have contacts with others who were even then spread out in Africa. Furthermore, he being an outspoken liberal, his silence cannot be taken as he being non-conformist to the prevalent view on African race. I have a lecture that Mandela gave to Indian community in South Africa. He certainly refers to Gandhi in very reverend terms, and acknowledged his knowledge of Gandhi's utterances on African Blacks.

#176 by cliftonbridge

Where the goal for prosperity as seen by enlightened folk just like you is the destruction of islam and conversion of muslims in the name of a "balanced" society?

Conversion of Muslims? Not just Jinnah, now I feel even you are speaking out of your you-know-what. Can you please put let us know of a single instance of a Muslim being converted to any other religion in India? Thanks in advance.

Re: # 174
Yes he did and it is on page 305 of Stanley Wolpert's book ' Jinnah of Pakistan'. According to Notes at the end of the book, these remarks are attributed to , Reuter's "Report of Jinnah's Meeting in Cairo", in Atique Z. Sheikh and M.R.Malik, eds. ' Quaid-e-Azam and the Muslm World: Selected Documents' ( Karachi \: Royal Book Co. 1978)p. 166.

Re: # 161 yes Zeemax..i fully agree....