Jinnah and the Islamic State – Setting the Record Straight

Harish mian,

The Islamists' pandering to anti-Pakistan Indians and vice versa is nothing new... and is historic. Therefore your point of view is not surprising.

Ofcourse you think it is easier dealing with Islamists and not liberals. Islamists don't challenge but reinforce the apocalyptic vision of the world that you seem to have ... we challenge your bigotry with facts and ideas and that is too much for people like you to take.

And the biggest word twisting weasel on this website is someone you consider honest. What can one say.

-YLH

#239 by zeemax

But a pre-condition for that is that each must accept the others' intrinsic differences, and not confront those as being an aberration of history (mostly blamed on Jinnah by Indians) and expect the other to come around sometime.

Well then zee, you tell us who else to blame. If every Indian, regardless of whether he was a Hindu, Muslim or Sikh was to have the same right, what was Jinnah fighting for? Was Hindu domination that real a threat that he sought a separate homeland? As you never tire of pointing out, Hindus aren't united even amongst their own castes, sects and even sub-sects, could they have united to suppress a quarter of India's population, the Muslims?

What I would really want to see is SAARC as a S. Asian Identity activated to rival that of the EU. And believe me, it can.

Well, the past behind us has been a bitter one, at least the future should see a common S. Asian identity which brings peace and prosperity to this troubled region.

#241 Posted by MantoLives,

Manto, Harish is one the very few 'honest' Indians on Chowk.

And thanks for the compliment of branding me as 'the biggest word twisting weasel on this website', but when did I ever twist any words???

If the Islamists can make SAARC work by clarifying all the cobwebs in minds on both sides, is that a bad thing? Why do you want to sabotage the effort?

Zeemax,

The word that Rozaiba used was formulate not legislate.

I am afraid you've gotten your understanding of how this parliament thing works... I suppose it is our fault that we've never actually allowed the system to work.

A Law Minister's job is to formulate bills and propose laws from the government's point of view. The said documents are then debated and passed or rejected by the parliament.

Jogindranath Mandal's appointment as a law minister indicates one of the two things below:

1. Either Jinnah did not intend to Islamise the laws or else he would have chosen an Islamic scholar to head the law ministry but he didn't. He chose a Hindu.

or

2. Jinnah believed even qualified Non-muslims could interpret and vet bills trying to introduce Islamic law.

Given that Mandal was a lawyer and not a scholar of Islam or Islamic laws (unlike say the Parsi D F Mulla) ... it can be said that it was not a decision made because Jinnah thought Mandal was the best suited scholar for Islam even if Hindu... Remember Mandal was before this chosen to represent the Muslims at the interim government in United India by Jinnah.


Add to this the fact that during all Powerful Jinnah's government, not a single piece of legislation was enacted that sought to Islamise Pakistan... we can safely conclude that Jinnah's choice of Mandal as the law minister was a strong message sent to his followers.

-YLH

Re: # 243

I meant Atif2... but alright.

Harish mian's honesty is on display on many such threads where he made erroneous claims and is still missing in action after promising to apologise if proved wrong.

#241 by MantoLives

Islamists don't challenge but reinforce the apocalyptic vision of the world that you seem to have ...

We have apocalyptic vision? Well apocalypse is what Jinnah predicted if India were to remain united and you go all out supporting that view. In fact, we're arguing exactly the opposite if you didn't notice.

..we challenge your bigotry with facts and ideas and that is too much for people like you to take.

Please spare us your facts. You've been exposed so many times not just by Indians, but so much more by your own compatriots that it is not even funny anymore.

#245 by MantoLives

Harish mian's honesty is on display on many such threads where he made erroneous claims and is still missing in action after promising to apologise if proved wrong

But what about your own honesty? It continues to unravel day after day on UP.

#242 Posted by harish_hyd,

Well then zee, you tell us who else to blame. If every Indian, regardless of whether he was a Hindu, Muslim or Sikh was to have the same right, what was Jinnah fighting for?

The short answer is 'Identity'. Jinnah was neither an Islamist nor a secular, nor a nation builder. He was a great constitutionalist though. The nation building part came from Iqbal, and Jinnah implemented it as best as he could. That's my opinion.

In the end, both sides are better off. So why complain? This is something I never understood. I mean ... India never belonged to Hindus. It was the Muslim Sub-Continent and later the British-Subcontinent in over a thousand years, and pagan before that. There was never any Bharat Maata. So what's the problem if Muslims chose to just take the North West for themselves as Pakistan? Why can't you accept it and work as S. Asians together with Islamists or whoever controls Pakistan?

After all, Iran is your better friend than Pakistan. And Iran is a 'theocracy'. What's your problem with Pakistan when it isn't even a 'theocracy' nor likely to become one?

#244 Posted by MantoLives,

It's of-course your sharp legal mind working. What rozaiba meant by 'formulate' was 'legislate'. Read the posts again. He doesn't know the difference.

Zeemax,

Whether or not Rozaiba used the term formulate as I did, the point I made stands.

Your last post to Harish mian is a strong one. I was glad to note that we reached agreement earlier as well on the issue of a secular state where the civic morality and the basis of legislation would ethics derived from Islam.

This is the only islamic state I can understand really... because Islam is not an exclusivist faith as far as I can understand it.



Harish,

"Exposed" "unraveled"

Don't give me this unraveling business my friend. No one has been able to unravel anything what I have said or "expose" me. If anything the past few weeks have shown the desperation of those who have spent years abusing me.

It is what you want to believe and not what is true that is the problem. Otherwise stepping back would allow you to see that this is just a fantasy... that you and atif2 would like to indulge in.

As for Jinnah... his history and his struggle is there. He was right in championing the Muslim cause... and still he tried at the last moment to bring Indians together... but his failure just proves how right he was in asking for Pakistan.

#250 Posted by MantoLives,

Yes I'm full of admiration for Joginder Nath Mandal, and regret that he didn't stay. Just as I am full of admiration for Sir Ganga Ram, whose hospital's name no one will ever dare change.

We agree on more than you think, Manto. It's just that demonising Islam is not acceptable ... in any shape or form. Then we guys go completely wild. It's just one of those things.

Zeemax:

By all accounts I wrote formulate and not legislate. As Manto explains:

"A Law Minister's job is to formulate bills and propose laws from the government's point of view."

Thus Jinnah chose a Pakistani Kafir to formulate bills and propose laws for his government. This says a lot about Jinnah ie Kafirs can lead a Muslim nation. It also highlights the dishonesty and mala fide intentions of those who proclaim Jinnah wanted to put in Shariah laws.



Harish:

It is not surprising you feel comfortable with religious fanatics.

zee

dude - india is always hinud land, 5000 years...even when muslims or brits ruled it, it's still hinud land, albeit occupied by foreign powers... which is why it's called hindustan... it will be always be the hinud land...

Now that said - we have no issues having a pakiland at the northwest corner... I think harish was pointing to the communal enmity generated in last decades and its associated issues... nothing more... we have no intention of taking the land back into the fold... you keep it - make it islamic or whatever... :)

Zeemax wrote:

"Yes I'm full of admiration for Joginder Nath Mandal, and regret that he didn't stay."

I was impressed with this comment. Sometimes I think we may be on the same page.

Because I also regret that Mandal didn't stay and left Pakistan because he found the objectives resolution with it's emphasis on one religion completely contrary to Jinnah's ideals. He left Pakistan heartbroken seeing it taken over by Maududi-ites.

roz
[....It is not surprising you feel comfortable with religious fanatics...]

We are not... but then it can't become any worse than what pakiland has been under the non-mullah regimes... in fact, from our POV - a mullah-ruled pakiland becomses easier to handle...

I have always thought of Zeemax as a thinking man. I am sure he also understands that using the word "secular" is not demonising Islam. Zee knows how proud I am of my Islamic heritage.

In any event... glad to see three Pakistanis agreeing on a fundamental point.