Jinnah and the Islamic State – Setting the Record Straight

as you have seen 16% of Indians believe that war is the only solution, pakistan is a small country it cannot survive a first strike, the moment an Indian leader makes up his mind, even before wepons are launched pakistan is doomed.

Re: # 80

Sadna is obfuscating as usual by deliberately confusing the concept of citizenship with nationalism.... if there is to be such a thing as Pakistani nationalism, it can only be based on Pakistani citizenship.

In essence Sadna wants the Muslims who followed Jinnah to own up to even those like Maududi and JUH .. the latter in bed with the Congress. This is a ridiculous argument even for someone as inspired by jingoistic Indian bigotry as Sadna.


This is like the Pakistani establishment telling the Pushtuns :

"Pushtun" nationalism has to carry the burden of every Pushtun's ideology that Pushtuns choose to espouse. Ghaffar Khan keh gaye that what was non-Pushtun did not belong in "Pushtun" nationalism, and the corollary of that is all that was Pushtun does belong in "Pushtun" nationalism. Hence all the Pushtun Islamists are Pushtuns."

(And remember Ghaffar Khan was for most part allied with Deobandi Islamists pre-partition)...

#58 Posted by masadi and other posts.

I can understand your umbrage and Jinnah being a lackey. But I think the word lackey is too socialistic. I remember reading that often in the soviet literature where everyone was a lackey of imperialists. Now initially, I believed it but later on I realized that it is really not a suitable word to use for politicians. Yes, there are lackeys but they are not politicians. For politicians, it is making an alliance based on the current needs. The alliances go awry when needs are fulfilled.

Jinnah was as pro western as they come. He was perhaps the most pro western politician in the sub continent before Benazir attained maturity.

And that one reason makes me dispute Urstruly and Atif2’s claims that Jinnah wanted some sort of religious set up in Pakistan. That would be going against the grain and there was no way in hell he would have approved taking direction from GOD.

I don’t subscribe to the ideas of Mahatmas and Quaid azam. Politicians are politicians there is nothing saintly about politics so how come these guys become Mahatma or the quaid-e- azam? (btw, I agree with quaid e awam because it is a more earthly title even though the quaid-e- awam barely believed in awam but that is another issue).

Now once we bring these politicians to earthly level, we can deal with what they said on different occasions as part of the political expediency of that time or the audience a politician was working with.

If Gandhi had said something about Ram Rajia in India, I would have believed him because he shaped his political persona on something which was more in line with Hindu way of life.

Jinnah based his politics on what he believed in. As long as he believed in the progressive and nationalist pov, he stuck with that even though his opposition to Khalifat Movement brought his political downfall from the highs of 1916 when he was the ambassador of peace between the two communities.

Jinnah did rule Pakistan for at least some months and there is no evidence that he pursued the Islamic dream at that time. His letters to Pir sahib of Manki Sharif should really be taken as stock answers to the queries politicians get and most of those replies are written by their political secretaries.

Ranto,

You are being your usual pathetically presumptuous self if you imagine that my knowledge of that word owes anything to you.

Then there are those who would like others to believe that being forced into an ethnic straitjacket not of your choice for the benefit of some elite is the epitome of individualism. It takes all types …

It is important to bear in mind that people like Phoodbhoys are no longer in a position to use the titles of "Doctor" or "Professor" or them being from Harvard type universities to
be a domineering factor.

AlHamduLillah, those from who are from Madressas are fully aware of the standard of education of the Farangi Universities. It is simply because $ is assocaited with the farangi degrees so a lot of ignorant people are under the delusion that they they are somehow more learned than the Madressa ones.

In fact anyone who went to a Madresaa , AFTER doing ttheir doctorates from Harvard types, vouch for the fact that even the best of the farangi universities are several notches below those of an average Madressa.

Once Employment & Earnigs and the veneer of "glamour" is removed from the enslaved colonised minds then the Phoodbhoy types are reduced to their well-deserved street-sweeper station.

Here is a slap on the face of this Kanjaroon who has been polluting CHOWK with his forked-tongue to promote his agenda of haramkhari inside the Trojan-horse of free-thinking".

Muslims are dtermined to eradicate his types or anyone who even entertains the tough of a Pakistan without an ORTHODOX, FUNDAMENTALIST, EXTREMIST Pakistan which is diametically opposite to raushan-khayal, maader-RATE, maader-RUN or a Kanjaroon Pakistan.
___________________________________________________________
Shahnawa z Farooqui is under 40 years old; a protege, as well as son-in-law, of the one-man institution Salim Ahmad whose scholarship is still a beacon to even the acknowledged greats in literary criticism , religion and philosophy
............................................

It is important to bear in mind that people like Phoodbhoys are no longer in a position to use the titles of "Doctor" or "Professor" or them being from Harvard type universities to
be a domineering factor.

AlHamduLillah, those from who are from Madressas are fully aware of the standard of education of the Farangi Universities. It is simply because $ is assocaited with the farangi degrees so a lot of ignorant people are under the delusion that they they are somehow more learned than the Madressa ones.

In fact anyone who went to a Madresaa , AFTER doing ttheir doctorates from Harvard types, vouch for the fact that even the best of the farangi universities are several notches below those of an average Madressa.

Once Employment & Earnigs and the veneer of "glamour" is removed from the enslaved colonised minds then the Phoodbhoy types are reduced to their well-deserved street-sweeper station.

Here is a slap on the face of this Kanjaroon who has been polluting CHOWK with his forked-tongue to promote his agenda of haramkhari inside the Trojan-horse of free-thinking".

Muslims are dtermined to eradicate his types or anyone who even entertains the tough of a Pakistan without an ORTHODOX, FUNDAMENTALIST, EXTREMIST Pakistan which is diametically opposite to raushan-khayal, maader-RATE, maader-RUN or a Kanjaroon Pakistan.
___________________________________________________________
Shahnawa z Farooqui is under 40 years old; a protege, as well as son-in-law, of the one-man institution Salim Ahmad whose scholarship is still a beacon to even the acknowledged greats in literary criticism , religion and philosophy

Re: # 84

A'null,

Chalo... I'll assume you were not taught how to express gratitude. I am just glad I educated you whether you acknowledge it or not.

And I agree there are those who would like others to believe that being forced into a straitjacket not of your choice for the benefit of some elite is the epitome of individualism. Well said ... sadly not very introspective though.

Last try for URDU text which must accompany the post to make any sense. This time using inverted commas.


It is important to bear in mind that people like Phoodbhoys are no longer in a position to use the titles of "Doctor" or "Professor" or them being from Harvard type universities to
be a domineering factor.

AlHamduLillah, those from who are from Madressas are fully aware of the standard of education of the Farangi Universities. It is simply because $ is assocaited with the farangi degrees so a lot of ignorant people are under the delusion that they they are somehow more learned than the Madressa ones.

In fact anyone who went to a Madresaa , AFTER doing ttheir doctorates from Harvard types, vouch for the fact that even the best of the farangi universities are several notches below those of an average Madressa.

Once Employment & Earnigs and the veneer of "glamour" is removed from the enslaved colonised minds then the Phoodbhoy types are reduced to their well-deserved street-sweeper station.

Here is a slap on the face of this Kanjaroon who has been polluting CHOWK with his forked-tongue to promote his agenda of haramkhari inside the Trojan-horse of free-thinking".

Muslims are dtermined to eradicate his types or anyone who even entertains the tough of a Pakistan without an ORTHODOX, FUNDAMENTALIST, EXTREMIST Pakistan which is diametically opposite to raushan-khayal, maader-RATE, maader-RUN or a Kanjaroon Pakistan.
___________________________________________________________
Shahnawa z Farooqui is under 40 years old; a protege, as well as son-in-law, of the one-man institution Salim Ahmad whose scholarship is still a beacon to even the acknowledged greats in literary criticism , religion and philosophy

Re: # 86 i fully agree...excellent...

borivili_express writes "so punk what are hindus doing to muslims in gujrat, kahmir and other spots in india, social justice?"

Is that the best you can muster a-hole? Whatever the "Hindus" are doing or not doing does not justify nuking the place- are you so dumb to understand that? Protecting your brother.....? Where did you get that? The Book talks about the oppressed, protecting them, and not even in the most convuluted logic does that translate into nuking people. Jihadists like you, a caricature of the Crusader's Version of Islam, discard the Quran at will and then talk about "Islam". And don't give me that bravery BS. Dropping a nuclear bomb does not involve bravery, it involves grotesque immorality. If you were worried about facing Allah you wouldn't advocate the barbarism you advocate. Remember any evil you do be it an atom's weight will be brought to justice, a-hole and what you are advocating is not an atom's worth but a whole planet's worth of evil. Invented stories about the US elite? Ha ha you just gave away your cover. A damn bigot yourself probably an RSS Hindu and you are pretending to be a Jihadist....funny but you fool yourself alone...like that BS Khan character we have on here

HP writes "Jinnah was as pro western as they come. He was perhaps the most pro western politician in the sub continent before Benazir attained maturity."

A history lesson for us all...especially Manto and his gang
= )

Asadi, This is a troll. Borivili is an area in Bombay!

Hello!

At the height of Chief Justice crisis, I submitted an article to chowk captioned *Gang-rape of Pakistan*

Chowk editors have apparently opted not to publish it.

For my fellow chowkies and for the sake of posterity (ta ke sanad rahe that I too did raise my voice) I am posting a blog link to it. It is a letter that sent to all corps commanders of Pak army.

http://gangrapeofpakistan.blogspot.com/

Sorry, very sorry, that my comments are not very article specific.

Regards

MMI

Re: # 91

And I am assuming you think it is a bad thing?

#91 Posted by masadi

In the subcontinent's context, I don't consider being pro western a disqualification or some sort of Lackey!

The debate about Jinnah's motivations, about Islam, the role of Islam in the lives of Muslims, the compatibility of Islam and democracy etc. will go on forever. Muslims will want to show their religion in the kindest light possible, constructing all kinds of tortured arguments and counter-arguments.

The real proof is in the pudding. NEVER, in ANY Islamic majority country, will there EVER be a stable democracy for any length of time.

The reason for this is that people's attitudes are shaped by the culture they are born into, and religion shapes the culture in most societies. And public attitudes reinforce the culture. For Muslims born into Islamic majority societies, there is no escape from this vicious circle.

Even in a country like Turkey, with a historic proximity to Europe, and a 87% literacy rate, the army has to strain hard to suppress Islamic fundamentalism.

Nope, this concept of Islam as a personal religion that exists separate from the state is pure fantasy. Will never happen, unless ANOTHER "prophet" pops up, and popularizes an edited version of the age-old nonsense. And what will make Muslims "accept" this new prophet will have to be economic and geo-political imperatives that are applied and enforced from without.

That will take at least another 9/11.