The 'poor' Neighbour

Unless and until India controls population in urban areas and soem states like Bihar,UP,West Bengal and Kerala, India will be 1/2 or 1/3 success all the time. To get land for infrastructure is the latest problem dogging all Indian states. I don't feel money is the problem for infrastructure development.

Unless and until India controls population in urban areas and soem states like Bihar,UP,West Bengal and Kerala, India will be 1/2 or 1/3 success all the time. To get land for infrastructure is the latest problem dogging all Indian states. I don't feel money is the problem for infrastructure development.

Unless and until India controls population in urban areas and soem states like Bihar,UP,West Bengal and Kerala, India will be 1/2 or 1/3 success all the time. To get land for infrastructure is the latest problem dogging all Indian states. I don't feel money is the problem for infrastructure development.

Re: # 284
First let these corrupt business tycoons fund the Govt. programs by paying proper tax.

Re: # 203
My God....2 WWs. France,Germany, Rome, Greece, Russia etc...they have enough history of blood shed. Indian history is full of wars. After advent of Jainism and Budhdism, the violence in the society reduced to minimal. That was the starting point of diluting military power of Indian kings.

Caste system was not to create group,rather it was a division based on profession. Why caste group will fight with each other? Now, we need different set skills.So, the old caste system is not of any significance now.

As per human belongings are concerned, India may be poorer than Pakistan. Most of this problem is created in 1980s. Pakistani people are benefitting from the closeness of West. They get huge financial assistance from USA and Saudi Arabia for long time. India, an old USSR ally, was very poor still 1990s. So, the rapid change in India is visible to West. If India would have controlled population growth in 80s, India would have been in better state now.

Re: # 268
Indians never liked moslems. When British came, moslems were kicked by Indians with the help of British.
Before islamic invastion in India, Indian Kshatriyas paid more attention to administration than defence/military matters. So, most of the states were well governed, though they were militarily weak. The basic problem of Islamic rule is nicely visible in the administrative chaos created in Pakistan, Bangladesh, UP, Bihar etc... These places were under prolonged islamic rule and fully barbarised. The southern states ( AP, Tamilnadu, Karnataka and Kerala) is devoid of such problem.

After 60 years, difference between two neighbours could not be more stark. One heading north lorea way and the other south korea -way:

"Commonwealth leaders unanimously appointed an Indian as secretary-general on Saturday, two days after the 53-nation federation suspended Pakistan.... "

Full read at-

http://dawn.com/2007/11/25/index.htm

It is so interesting to have a read that Mukesh Ambani's networth is more than twice the fiscal budget of Pakistan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Pakistan

For Mukesh Ambani's networth, just google, internet is full of results.

A few such individuals can truly run national budgets of other states in south asia...truly amazing!!

Indian wealthies can fund paki generals for not sending jihadis to India rather than begging their american and chinese masters.

Why this obsession with comparing one country to another?Some writers latch onto a topic like this just to stir things up and Dalrymple appears to be squeezing the last drop out of this.
It is like comparing two individuals even though each has his or her own strengths and weaknesses.
Leave them be; let each develop at his/her/its own pace.But then Dalrymple would have to find something else to write about and he probably won't let go this very juicy Raj/India/Pakistan topic that he has decided to focus on very soon and will probably continue to keep writing about his phirang take on us all....

Mentally Challenged Masadi,

Your mail below only proves that you go around insulting just about everybody you bump into. Whether American or Pakistani or Indian, they are all peons of the West. It is Masadi who is always right. The rest of the world is always wrong.

Foolish mindsets like yours continue to harm this country.

This is for one of the interactors on the other now lost article, who wanted Mead to hand him my head on a silver platter. Unfortunately for him, it didn't turn out that way..

------------------------------- From the ilog for today----

Attended the seminar with Walter Russell Mead and his entourage today (8/27). As I had mentioned earlier, as part of the cultural technician of the US empire (at the Council on Foreign Relations) he is in the business of cloaking US barbarism abroad in the finest silk, draped with the best available perfume of charity, human rights or alternatively the “city on the hill”. I remained silent during most of the Q&A session. There were a few relevant questions asked about Afghanistan, one person mentioned the “War on Terror” being a US search for “Mega Enemies” after the collapse of the SU, to feed the “Military Industrial Complex”, impressive I thought to myself. During the course of that question, that questioner suggested that more people get killed in automobile accidents in the US than get killed by Terrorism to which Walter Russell Mead condescendingly said “I don’t see the relevance of that to anything at all”. Asadi Sahib saw the opportunity and jumped in ; ) ha ha, fine moment, “Can I show the relevance of that please, I asked”. On being allowed by the moderator, I said, “The relevance of that is quite apparent in that the US has placed as priority #1 on its foreign and domestic policy list something that is less harmful than even automobile accidents. Why not have poverty elimination, health care, auto accident prevention much higher on the priority list, than the so-called “war on terror”.

To this Mr. Mead (the fat a$$ sob) replies, “ Automobile accidents cannot be on the foreign policy list, ha ha even though country x……..”

To which I replied, “Auto mobile accidents was just an example to show that the US is giving priority to things that are not as big or harmful as they are made out to be. How about poverty reduction, things that cause greater harm to humanity if the US is as benevolent as you suggest.”

Then he went to a long diatribe about how fitting into the “world system” (something the damn fool didn’t even understand) has caused a lot of poverty reduction around the world and the US has given Pakistan very favorable trade deals, letting them sell whatever they want and that will result in poverty reduction, and the US is the most generous nation on earth, that gives more than any other country, we outsource our jobs, make our people suffer to give you jobs…..yada yada”

I asked the moderator if I could respond to that and was cut off and told that the time was over . The guy was sweating, he didn’t expect a grilling, he expected gracious bows and man-worship the kind the Indians do with the Americans these days or Manto does with Jinnah.

If I was given the opportunity to respond to his BS, I would have pointed to him that more than 50% of the earth’s population lives below $2 a day thanks to the “world system”, that has historically produced a few winners (nearly all European) and most losers (the colored world). Poverty in the US has gone up during the tenure of GWB, and you cannot convince people of the benevolence of the US, when its own house is in disarray with over 40 million people facing food insecurity, and a health care system that sends millions to an early grave due to delayed or unavailable care, all for the profit motive. I would also have told him that foreign reparations of the TNCs that are doing Pakistan a “favor”, have gone up 900% in the past year but not the paltry wages they pay to the workers or the few they employ that are not even a drop in the Pakistan’s labor force. Next, I would have reminded him that US firms relocate not because the US is benevolent and sacrifices the jobs of its own to get rid of “poverty” but because they want to exploit cheap labor in foreign lands, part of a similar resource theft that took place during colonization and they relocate because unions are weak and wages are low, not because the US is handing out its “coat and cloak” as charity.

Well, I was cut off but I conveyed my point. The look on his face was all I wanted to see. We are not damn fools that you rape us, perpetuate poverty among us, use us and discard us and then want us to worship you like tahmed and hand out chicken tikkas and kulfis. Take your fat a$$ back to the corridors of power in Washington, soon that whore- house will crumble, because all structures built on injustice have shaky foundations….

Re: # 274
'As for women being out in the open... true that Pakistani women don't drive scooters... but often enough I stop at a light and every other driver in every other car is a woman..'
Where? Where is this relative freedom? In the poshest areas of Pakistan. In Karachi it used to be so from 1990s to 2004. Now not so. In fact women are in Niqab, Burkha and they do not drive. Saw one or two women in the Defense Clifton posh areas who were driving. Most were in Burkas. Chadars and NiqAabs through out Karachi.

re: 278

Is Biden just dumb or is he like, Indian liberals, totally incapable of learning?

All of us have our own personal preferences but that sob wants AMERICANS to prevent Pakistani moderates from going underground! Who the heck are the Americans to keep Pakistani moderates from going anywhere they choose to, so long as they stay within Pakistan? Will Americans "help" moderates by interfering in Pakistani political matters again?

If anybody thinks this "Pakistan policy" will be any different from "Musharraf policy" then they have never understood a thing about this part of the world.

'Pakistan is world's most dangerous country'
20 Aug 2007, 0813 hrs IST,PTI

WASHINGTON: Terming Pakistan as "the most dangerous country in the world", the US' Senate Committee on Foreign Relations has slammed Bush administration for having a "Musharraf policy" instead of a policy for Pakistan.

"The fact of the matter is, Pakistan is the most dangerous, potentially the most dangerous country in the world. A significant minority of jihadists with nuclear weapons. We have no Pakistan policy; we have a Musharraf policy," chairman of the US Senate Committee on Foreign Relations Senator Joseph R Biden said at a debate featuring the Democratic candidates sponsored by ABC News at the Drake University in Iowa.

"That's a bad policy. The policy should be based upon a long-term relationship with Pakistan and stability," the Senator, who is also seeking Democratic Party nomination for 2008 US Presidential elections, said.

Biden stressed on the need to conduct a free and fair elections in Pakistan to prevent the moderates, who are in "overwhelming majority", from going underground.

"We should be encouraging free elections. There is an overwhelming majority of moderates in that country. They should have their day. Otherwise, they are going to go underground," the powerful Chair of the Senate Committee said.

During the debate, former Democratic vice presidential candidate John Edwards terming Musharraf as "not a wonderful leader" said, "He provides some stability in Pakistan. And there is a great risk, if he's overthrown, about a radical government taking over."

"They have a nuclear weapon. They are in constant tension with India, which also has nuclear weapons, over Kashmir. I mean, it's a dangerous, volatile situation," Edwards added.

And it has done infinitely better evidently when it comes to the ground reality...

So what does that tell you?

Re: # 274
"However... Pakistan's achievement is that it has forced Muslims who were lagging behind as agriculturalists and soldiers to come to grips with the reality of having a state of their own..."

Isn't 60 years enough time to come to grips with reality...Or is some more time needed for that?

"Indian roads are safer"

It is merely a perception. In threat perception levels Pakistan might be much higher.. but in threat reality... Pakistan and India are about the same.

nandan ...

No one denies that the Indian society driven by its Hindu Majority is infinitely more politically and socially evolved than Muslims ... who lagged behind in modern education during the colonial period.

However... Pakistan's achievement is that it has forced Muslims who were lagging behind as agriculturalists and soldiers to come to grips with the reality of having a state of their own...

As for women being out in the open... true that Pakistani women don't drive scooters... but often enough I stop at a light and every other driver in every other car is a woman..
so I am not sure how much of a difference there is vis a vis openness of women. Pakistani women have come out in large numbers.

Visiting Pakistan will undoubtedly smash some of the stereotypes Indians have about Pakistan.

manto my friend,
have you ever come to india...sure your roads,airports etc are better but Indian roads are much safer. I remember an delegation of women from pakistan had come to india, they were suprised to see so many women out in open...women working...riding scooters...without getting harrased or haggled...whats the use of better roads or better infrastructure without freedom
regards
Nandan

Re: # 271
haaha....logical religion indeed....for osama and his killers
the 9/11 is perfectly logical and so are hudood, hijab,sharia....
and the whole world is sick of it.
Maybe if you cleanse you brainwashed head and read a bit of history ..there is hope for you

Re: # 270hahaha
well it seems tht u live in utopia well whtever u said was just opposite...
read any of the history related bk it has written tht majority of hindus were converted in to MUSLIMS by their own will bcoz ISLAM is a logical religion dis is the reality which has accepted by whole world today so u better read some gud stuff to increase ur poor knowledge its gud 4 u.

jeech ,
grow up..I mean I am tired of hearing pakis how the muslims ruled over India...and I am tired of responding that most muslims of pakistan are converted hindus..so what applies to hindus applies to the majority pakis even you.
As for muslims ...especially the arabs are busy licking american a**.
come on move on from the age old rhetoric...

re: jeech # 268

jeech, before some people take offense, let me say I do, in an odd way, agree with your second para. There is an important Hindu-Muslim difference in this matter, and sometime we might discuss it. Best.

William apparently sounds correct... but there is not much difference happening right now in India, India contribute a huge ratio of poverty in the world... what if some westerners show Indians a dream.

Hindus, as the matter of fact, have been worshiping the rising suns. A few hundred years ago they had been bowing against Muslims and now against the westerners... A dream of supremacy is like a half penny from the west.
(No offence)

Re: # 266
Ha haThis must be the master race’s version of paki-bashing. I wonder what they were shouting when they attacked, hail fuehrer.

er...say...arjun/jayp/chennai...I guess they dont know how great Indians are in germany...or maybe the germans were confused and thought they were paki cab drivers, not indian IT billionaires....ha! ha!

Mob of 50 attacks Indians in east German town DRESDEN, Germany, Aug 20 (Reuters) A mob shouting racial insults attacked eight Indians at a town fair in east Germany, then chased them and besieged them inside a pizzeria until they were rescued by police, officials said Monday. Around 70 police were required to disperse the mob of 50 people, which gathered after revellers shouted abuse and threw bottles at the Indians during the town fair in Muegeln, east of Leipzig, Saturday night, police said. All of the Indians were injured, he said. (Posted @ 21:00 PST)

HAHA..pakis ki phut gayi...can't match india's growth rate..and inflation is through the roof..

No choice but to match India growth

Nadeem Syed, Javed Mehmood, Monem Farooqi & Naqi Akbar
LAHORE - Pakistan cannot afford to lag behind India in growth rate for the sake of maintaining peace and parity in the region. As such Pakistan needs to keep a robust growth rate of 7 to 9 pert cent especially with respect to India. It is also imperative for the country’s integrity in the long run.
Dr Salman Shah, the advisor to the Prime Minister for Economic Affairs was talking to The Nation panel here Monday. He talked at length about the economic outlook as well as the positioning of the Pakistani economy especially with respect to capital market growth, foreign direct investment as well as the level of reforms undertaken by the current political dispensation. To substantiate the contention that the Musharraf government has been ahead of the previous governments in correcting the economic fundamentals he made a detailed presentation taking stock of the growth rates, fiscal deficits containment, external debt as well as the growth of the middle income group during the period between 1999 to 2005.
Elaborating the India-Pakistan growth imperative, he argued that with Pakistan keeping as much of growth rate as of India, Pakistan was ensuring peace in the region remain intact. He said that Pakistan following a high growth rate would ensure not only peace but also its strategic security.

Heh He....

Mushy, having pocketed 5 Billion US$ is in ape shit...and clueless like his country..

Musharraf in serious trouble, says South Asia expert
Monday 20th August, 2007
(ANI)
Washington, Aug 20 : Noted South Asia expert Teresita C Schaffer feels that Pakistan President General Pervez Musharraf, who has been the centrepiece of US policymaking in the region, is in "serious trouble" ahead of the elections in the country.

According to Schaffer, of the Centre for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), Musharraf is facing an awakened political opposition in Pakistan, though not a united one.

Schaffer said in a recent interview to the Council on Foreign Relations that the trouble for Musharraf lies in the fact that many people think it is in some sense democratically inappropriate for the President to get himself elected by assemblies that are about to be abolished.

That is going to be a focus for political protest, Schaffer said, adding that the more complicated issue, however, is that Musharraf wants to run as a general and head of the army.

She said that Musharraf's second source of trouble is related to domestic extremism, following the Lal Masjid episode.

The Daily Times quoted Schaffer as saying that the problem started with Musharraf's decision to send in the army to the Lal Masjid in Islamabad. The aftermath of that decision has been a string of violence that is unmatched in the Capital, as well as in the areas near the Afghan border, and also far away from that.

She said the violence in Pakistan since the Lal Masjid operation may lead to rethinking among army leaders on the value of maintaining extremists in the country as a political force.

"We need to watch and see if they have really decided they need to put these people out of business. If they have, that would be an important policy turn for the United States. To be fair, it's a high-risk policy, but there are no risk-free policies in today's Pakistan," she said.

However, she added that Musharraf's basic approach to the extremists, both the domestic ones and those on the Afghan circuit, has been to hedge-- try to keep them under control, but not to put them out of business.

The third problem the General faces, according to her, is the traditional feud with India. Schaffer said that Kashmir is the "poster child" for this dispute, but by no means the only part of it.

At the moment, India and Pakistan have a going. It's not clear that this dialogue is going to accomplish anything much in the near term, but at least it represents a decision by both governments that they would rather talk than squabble, she said.

I can see some genuine conscious effort by educated muslims, and not merely taqquiya, to say that they are not "like that".
A conscious effort not to be clubbed with mians and mullahs who claim to represent Islam and hence Pakistan.

But , I do not think it is loud enough.

As Indians say - "we have to see the ground realities".

true, the ground realities stem from Pakistani constitution.

Islam is still entrenched in it. And until remanents of political Islam are not BANISHED from Pakistani constitution, I cannot see any hope of Pakistan not going the Afghanistan way in the coming years to come.

Igbnoring the reality is the pak trade mark, and no infrastructure can solve that. See the statistics below for Karachi alone, fram jang of today. Note that 18 bodies were discovered, these are the ones who died and no one would dare to make a police complaint, they are the jihadic killings, cleared by the Ehdi society and given a burial , and no one wants to know about them.


118 persons lost their lives last week
Kamran Mansoor

Karachi

At least 118 persons lost their lives during the last week, of whom 14 people were shot dead, 18 murdered, two committed suicide, eight of them were burnt to death, 15 drowned, 18 bodies were recovered, while 43 were killed in accidents including 21 in rains.

At least 1,309 robberies were committed in the city, out of which 1,085 were mobile phones snatching or stolen cases, 28 cars and 65 motorcycles snatching cases.

People were robbed of valuables in 130 other incidents of robberies. A total of 309 cases of thefts were reported during the last week, in which 63 cars, 172 motorcycles were taken away from different parts of the city.

/////////////////////////

No tahmed, no YLH would want to comment on the above statistics, 118 people killed, and you can see that same numbers are routinely killed in karachi every week,. See Jang for other details. Infrastructure in a barbarian society can only facilitate barbaric acts.

State of Anxiety

By Michael Hirsh And Ron Moreau
Newsweek

Aug. 20-27, 2007 issue - Pervez Musharraf has always been a dubious ally in George W. Bush's War on Terror—the kind of guy you avert your eyes from while patting him on the back. It's not that Bush doubts the Pakistani leader's sincerity—"He shares the same concern about radicals and extremists as I do and as the American people do," the president said at an Aug. 9 news conference—it's just that Musharraf is never going to make it into Bush's democracy club. And Musharraf's ability to stop his nation's Islamist radicalism from spilling over into terrorism has always been limited. A genial autocrat who seized power in a 1999 coup and has refused to relinquish his general's uniform, Musharraf has succeeded in keeping Washington on his side by regularly handing over second-tier Qaeda suspects and by keeping tenuous control over his increasingly Islamicized country. But now Musharraf may be losing his grip on power amid rising concerns by senior U.S. officials that a new safe haven for Al Qaeda has emerged in Pakistan's rocky, ungoverned tribal regions, especially Waziristan.


As a result, an increasing number of voices in Washington—from Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama to hard-line officials in the Bush administration—are calling for unilateral military action inside Pakistan. NEWSWEEK has learned that for weeks Pentagon officials have been debating the current policy of not violating Pakistani sovereignty, coming down in favor of restraint. But some officers in Joint Special Operations Command are "pawing the ground to go into Waziristan," says one Pentagon consultant who is privy to the debate but would speak about classified discussions only anonymously. Congress, meanwhile, has passed legislation that threatens to cut off aid to Pakistan if President Bush can't certify that Musharraf is doing all he can. "It's very humiliating for Musharraf," says retired Pakistani Lt. Gen. Talat Masood. "It could even destabilize him." That's one reason Bush continues to stand by him. Administration officials fear that if Musharraf falls and Pakistan descends into political chaos, then a nuclear-armed state could fail and Pakistan's nuclear know-how might end up in the wrong hands.

Even short of that doomsday scenario, senior U.S. officials, both active and retired, say that without more decisive action Al Qaeda will grow, if not flourish, in the tribal areas. And someday the U.S. homeland will likely be attacked from there, they say, just as Al Qaeda once used Afghanistan as a base from which to plot the 9/11 attacks. In late July a National Intelligence Estimate—a periodic assessment that is considered the most authoritative issued by the U.S. government—concluded Al Qaeda has "regenerated key elements" of its ability to attack the United States from the tribal regions of North Waziristan and Bajaur. Hank Crumpton, a near-legendary CIA clandestine service officer who retired last year as the State Department's counterterrorism coordinator, says Washington needs to do more than rely on the Pakistani military and intelligence services. "I'd go in there [tribal areas] with a hard-core counterinsurgency effort," Crumpton told NEWSWEEK. He would seek Pakistan's consent—"but I wouldn't pretend that this is sovereign territory. It is not."
CONTINUED

http://thedailycolumns.wordpress.com/2007/08/15/60-years/


Commemorating our sixtieth year of Independence, India’s top news channel Jetix went around asking random Indians what they thought were the ten most significant moments in the last sixty years of Indian History. After talking to about a thousand gazillion Indians (approximately one eighth of India’s total population), Jetix managed to compile an undisputable list of India’s ten greatest moments and achievements in the last sixty years. There were a few moments in the list that had completely escaped the collective memory of us Indians until the colorfully dressed Japanese midgets of Jetix recaptured it for us.


Titled : TOP TEN GOLDEN MOMENTS OF FREE INDIA

....the rest you have to read it there...

#257 jayp: clinging to every straw you can find, eh? :-)

YLH, read dawn every day and find out teh state of pakistan economy and infrastructure.

from dawn of today


KARACHI: PSQCA without electricity for a week


KARACHI, Aug 18: In the aftermath of the recent heavy rains in Karachi, the Pakistan Standards and Quality Control Authority has been without electricity for the past one week, says a PSQCA press release issued on Saturday.

It deplores that the ‘under-ground cable fault’ has not been detected as yet in spite of the passage of one week.

The statement further said that officials of the Karachi Electricity Supply Corporation are unable to say as to when the electricity supply of this important organisation will be restored.

It also expresses the apprehension that the samples of millions of rupees sent by the industry for laboratory testing might go to waste in view of the electricity outage.

tahmed 174,

I had been telling that pakistan will become a jihadic country for a long time and pakistanis have proved me right. Even in the far away USA, the topic is to bomb pakistan or not. For a long time pakistanis claimed that jihadis are in the rural areas, fanned by poverty, lal majid has proved me correct, the jihadis are from the educated class in the urban areas. supported by the mums and dads and not by the saudi money.

Now take the case pak talk about india. On chowk, I recall there was one romair, who kept telling that indian IT is nothing, there is no future, they are the code coolies. Now no one talks about that.

Pakistans core is rotten, the TNT, and till that is destroyed there can be no progress. Pakistan will sink further into jihadic morass. No benazir, no musheraff can save pakistan.

As pakistanis teh only thing they can do is to accelerate the decline so that the nadir is reached quicker and an improvement can begin.

Inrastructure and the military


There is so much talk about the pak infrastructure. No one mentioned that the major roads and buildings are built by the Hational Logistics Company a unit of the pak military. Many of the roads are built with no regard to the needs simply to transfer money to the military.

Pk military spending is not 25 percent of teh budget as claimed, it includes so much of money transferred to the military owned companies ranging from corn flakes to cement to infrastructure companies.

Many countries have an army, in pakistan the army has a country.

Nsqbandi 169

I gave some specific examples of stupid economic policy to illustrate that pakistanis even when educated do not understand the essence of sciences because of their conditioning by the religion.

I cited the examples from economic policy

here are a few from the social area. Take the case of thousands of pakistansi geeting passport to go for higher studies. Each and every one of them in their application make a statement that ahmadis are bad guys, they are non muslims , they are kafirs and the like. No pakistani, the educated ones have never raised the issue, because each one of them support what they state on the passport application. They all support the deal meted out to abdus salam, he uis a non-person in pakistan, no one mentions his name.

No one ever, as I have seen on chowk have said anything about abdus salam, stating that the non recognision given to abdus salam is a deep seated flaw in the pak thinking and how wcientific values are secondary to islamic values, and honoring a nobel prize winner, a non muslim is unthinkable for any pakistani.

The fact remains that teh collective pakistan can never honour abdus salam, and thsi collectve value is not that produced by the mullahs, it produced by men like you, naqbandi, the likes of YLH and tahmed.

Hey manto...IT is booming in the land of the pure...


A secular-minded Musharraf practised obfuscation and ambivalence as political theory. He rode the conservative PMLQ while mouthing secular slogans in reference to governance, the minorities and women. He thought passports could be bowdlerised of narrow-minded entries, but backed down when his party balked. He put joint electorates in the 17th Amendment but chickened out when it came to giving Ahmedis the same status as other non-Muslims. The policy on the madrassas was his most blatant failure. Under him the number of madrassas in Pakistan doubled, including the ones that opened right under his nose in Islamabad. The number of boys who joined the seminaries also doubled, and in Karachi the honeycomb of sectarian Deobandi madrassas proudly announced “house full” on admission days. He saw the hostile proliferation but kept quiet. The jihadi graduates of these madrassas tried to kill him, but he kept drawing in his horns rather than grasping the nettle and getting rid of the menace. He let the Lal Masjid affair simmer for years till it blew up in his face. In fact, he let Lal Masjid stage a mammoth anti-Shia gathering of sectarian criminals in 2006, thus throwing dust in the eyes of the “liberals” who supported him.

Like his adventure at Kargil, his mobilisation against Al Qaeda in Waziristan failed because of incompetence. The sectarian killings that had picked up in his tenure actually reached their peak. His “bold” operation in Balochistan alienated many because he attempted it without political support and in defiance of all advice. All sincere advice to him about attempting an alignment of the liberal forces behind him fell on deaf ears. By the time he realised that he had to talk to the political leaders he had ousted, his strangely “incomplete” personality had queered the pitch for any meaningful reconciliation.

Horror of Horrors !!!
Masadi is being taken seriously by the Minister for education !!!!
Masadi is submitting reports to the government!!!
Higher education in Pakistan shall henceforth be on lines suggested by Masadi!!!


Pinch !!! Wake up !!!! Pinch !!!

We have only Masadi's word for it.

It must be as true as the remainder of his bullshyte , viz his 'students" conducting "research" and publishing "papers" in his "institute". Masadi working towards the "Nobel Prize". Lulu.com being a better publisher than Springer Verlag, McGraw Hill, Prentice Hall etc.

Some prople will believe anything.....

Let us hope that as and when the tottering government falls and the Ministers and their lackeys are executed (nay, shot on the streets like rabid dogs)-- a few particularly sidey llackeys are not allowed to escape.

Re: Anil #250

I cannot disagree with you on this one.

The number that I gave is still staggering.

My problem is with how quickly South Asian

lives are cheapened, especially during partitions,

during 1947 or 1971 (for me this was a partition too).

I like your ideals:

"I believe a crime is committed when a single innocent is killed, raped or maimed."


Ras

now we are really effed !

....... mad masadi is in charge of shaping pakistan's higher education ! ......... i felt much safer with the mullahs of jamia hafsa and jamia fareedia - all they wanted was to teach us how to harness the power of jinns to solve the energy crisis and use camel urine to cure cancer ..... with masadi in charge we will all be reading mills and boone and blaming the american elite for everything that afflicts pakistan ..........verily, we are doomed .........

Ras:

I wrote what I saw from my eyes and heard from ears. Only thing I can say is that together we may present a more complete picture. With our biases included, I being an Indian student in England, and you being a non-bengali in East Pakistan. Also, you know what "mostly but not exclusively" kind of phrases mean, depending upon the audience.

It is for this reason, I had mentioned that I did not want to discuss. The perspective that I come from even one rape is too much, be it done by Indian-Army in Kashmir, or Pakistani Army in East Pakistan, or the U.S. marines in Iraq.

For a long time my life's rules do not allow me to accept "mostly but not exclusively" irrespective of who use it and when uses it. I believe a crime is committed when a single innocent is killed, raped or maimed. No matter where, including in the streets of Srinagar, and Gujrat; or Baghdad.

I completely agree with your closing lines.

I

Re: Anil #241 and #244

Since I was there till March 8, 1971, all I can add

is that non-Bengalis were being picked off and murdered

long before the Army acted on March 25, 1971.

The reaction was far more terrible than the action.

It was a sad time for humanity all around.

I asked one of my old teachers about what happened after

I left. He said that around 100,000 people were killed

mostly but not exclusively by the Pakistan Army.

My old teacher was an American who did not have any reason

to lie.

I asked him about the 3 Million figure. He just smiled

and said that somebody needed to start exposing the truth

about that time. He said that the highest number of people

killed were on March 25-26. He was there all along till long

after the surrender.

It was a shameful period for Pakistan. Let us hope that

such events are not duplicated anywhere today.



Ras

Arjun "Federal minister of the slave-to-the-west government? "

Yes, ain't that something?, he sees the light, agrees with my claim of his government being a lackey of the West and pushes the recommendation article titled "Overcoming the 'Colonial Subordination Model of Education'..."

Your parliamentary secretary has already declared a jihad on the US...

Jihad against India, US is the only remedy, says LeT chief
From our ANI Correspondent

Lahore, Aug 15: Banned terrorist outfit Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) chief Hafiz Muhammad Saeed has said that jihad is the only remedy for all threats posed by India and US.




The LeT chief told a large rally at Regal Chowk that the India and US were directly involved in terrorism and sabotage activities inside Pakistan.

He claimed that the Pakistan Government was alleging that jihadis and Afghan mujahideens were carrying out bomb blasts, but this was being done just to please America.

"We have always stated that no mujahideen would ever get involved in suicide blasts against innocent civilians, and this stance was vindicated by the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary.

He said US leaders have been threatening attacks on Muslim holy places, and added that the nation was not afraid of any such threats.

Saeed said the rulers had caused great loss to the nation by befriending Washington and New Delhi, and allowing India to build a fence along the LoC, as well as by participating in the so-called grand jirga in Kabul.

Referring to a statement by the Parliamentary Secretary for Defence in the Senate, Saeed said that the Pakistan Government has adopted policies against Islam, and the wind of change has started blowing.

Saeed said the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary signified changes at the top, and added that it was the inner voice of the whole nation.

He warned that if the rulers did not change their policies then they themselves would have to be changed.

He further said that policies of the rulers had already created serious hatred against the Pakistan Army and the present situation resembled that of 1971, The News reported.

#239 Posted by MantoLives on August 18, 2007 11:33:58 am


HAHA...manto ko mirchi lagi..

India: IT
Pakistan: IT(Islamic Terrorism)

#243 Posted by masadi on August 18, 2007 12:19:18 pm


Thank you, yes the peak of my career was attained earlier this month when the Federal Minister in charge of the committee


Federal minister of the slave-to-the-west government?

Yasser:

It is all meaningless explanation to a person like me. I have no ex to grind. I saw all that I have mentioned here. Such study is something a person like me will not give a cent worth of credence, let alone read. I commented because you quoted. A person I respect. Honestly, I do not wish to get involved in discussiing it further, as I am not here to change your mind.

Thanks

Okhla writes "Perhaps now you have reached the peak of your career.

Rejoice in your success..... "

Thank you, yes the peak of my career was attained earlier this month when the Federal Minister in charge of the committee for Govt Reforms said that my recommendations on how to improve higher education in this country will be sent to all Social Science departments in the country (not a city but the whole country you fool), with the seal of approval of his committee that has reviewed them thoroughly... And how did he receive my report, it was forwarded as recommendation from the Chairman HEC..

Now that is greater success than most educators, returned from US recently or otherwise can claim or muster and LULU has NOTHING to do with it.....

I did not revise anything. I have said that Pakistan Army's reaction after 25th March was excessive and brutal. However... Dr. Bose has actually questioned some of Mr. Mascerhenas' assertions. Calling it Bose & Co... will not undo the fact that it was a Harvard funded study led by an Indian scholar of some integrity who had no reason to change her findings to Pakistan Army's benefit. Neither will "googling" or the Beatles' Album take away from the credibility of such a study.

Coming as it did the Harvard funded study of Bangladesh war some 35 years after the event, I think Dr. Bose, given that she is not ISI's agent as far as I know, needs to be given a chance.

And what is her conclusion. It is definitely not that Pakistan Army was blameless... but that genocide happened ferociously on both sides. And as for what kind of person I am... allow me to say that I am no longer the kind of person who would accept outrageously impossible figures simply to win brownie points with Indians as a "liberal".

So forgive me for not accepting a casualty figure and a rape figure which basically means that every Pakistani soldier was raping two women and killing two men every five minutes continuously from March 25, 1971 to December 16, 1971....

Re: # 229

Yasser:

When you quote people like Dr. Bose you are trying to revise the black history of that unfortunate period. I know you are not that kind of person. I also know on this account your patriotism is best served to unconditionally denounce it, and not revising by quoting Dr. Bose & Co. Bose & Co. cannot be anything other than discredited bunch. There must be so much information on it that you probably can Google it yourself. After all, a Beatle George Harrison made an album too. You may dismiss all these facts, and stick to Dr. Bose & Co., the choice is yours no doubt.

I had the opportunity of being on the front and watch each night BBC news about this entire situation. BBC and ITN coverage was so vivid and complete, it was like watching the entire war from front and center row.

Among other numerous coverages, I read coverages in London Times, by a Pakistani journalist, Anthony Mascarhenas. He used to be the journalist for Dawn, if my memonry serves right, before leaving in disgust. There are vivid pictures of brutalities by armed Pakistanis.

Sevral sensible Paksitani students in those days were disgusted also. I also remember, a very aristocratic Bengali student couple was against this war. Even they would not sit with the Pakistani group, after the war was started. That break in the Pakistani group was so complete after the war started.

Thoroughly covered fact is that prior to Bangladesh war, Urdu speaking population of East Pakistan had arms, not Bengalis. I had seen them talking and showing off on BBC and ITN news in England in those days. Unarmed people cannot be as dangerous as armed, with backing of the Pakistani Army.

I still vividly remember the pictures and video of the ghastly and gruesome pictures of massacre of students of the university (I believe Dhaka Univ. or may be Chittagong).

No one who has seen this action, will give any credence to Dr. Bose & Co. No one.

For Zeemax:

Part of the surrender terms were that India will not handover Pakistani POWs to Mukti Bahini or Bangladesh, and will be responsible for their safety. And that no Pakistani officer will be prosecuted for war crimes, or crime against humanity - or whatever it was called in those days. Even though were news that appealed to India to hand them over to the U.N. for the war crime trials.

Interestingly, a senior Pakistani person, Mr. Siddiqui, suddenly appeared on the university campus. He claimed to be coming to the library to prepare for law exams. He would sit with the Indian students somedays, or with Pakistani students on other days for his tea. He would talk endlessly. We all figured it out that he was not whom he claimed, but probably was the person sent by Pakistan High Commission to keep an eye on and to give feedback from students at the campuses.

The raving lunatic Okhla is lying about everything (except chowk censoring my articles) in the below reproduced BS diatribe, in fact it is quite pathetic that idiots like him have to invent bs to discredit my quite well established, well argued posts....like Madani sahib said these bastar** are just jealous because they cannot approach my posts except by inventing lies. Btw nobody deported me from the US or fired me from any US university, I came back to Pakistan of my own volition, away from the land of cheerful morons like okhla, slaves yet happy in their enslavement....Now go eff off okhla.... and don't spam all boards you damn fool

Yes... your country has an air... hot air... nothing else. These journalists can go on trying to prop you up... but in the end we can all safely conclude that Indians will be Indians ... and there will no real progress along the lines the powers that be desperately want India to move.

Meanwhile Pakistan has better infrastructure, less poverty and more reliable electricity.

Makes sense why I live a comfortable life in my own country and you live a dog's even outside yours.

#230 Posted by zeemax on August 18, 2007 9:44:49 am


I'm still waiting for the answer as to why none of the Pak POWs who were interned in India for two years, never charged of any crime, either by India or B'Desh?


Because India doesn't give a shit...and the real criminals are the generals who ordered the killings and fled when india advanced..

besides, the indians threatened to hand the pakis over to the bengalis in case the captured pakis didn't do as instructed...chadddi utar gayi "tiger" ke soldiers ki...

#235 Posted by MantoLives on August 18, 2007 10:31:49 am


Now while Pakistan Army was guilty of major excesses and should be criticized


Criticized for butchering hundreds of thousands of people?

p.s. the bangladeshis, the victims in all this, put the figure at hundreds of thousands...

The Model That India Offers

By Jim Hoagland
Sunday, August 19, 2007; Page B07

India celebrated its 60th birthday last week with a raucous parliamentary debate over nuclear energy and its new strategic relationship with the United States. New Delhi had the air of the capital of an emerging world power looking ahead into a promising, if complicated, future.

Pakistan marked the same occasion by sinking deeper into the past. The corrupt backroom dealing between military rulers and politicians that has produced a cycle of disasters for the Pakistani nation resumed -- aided by the hidden hand of U.S. diplomacy working to preserve President Pervez Musharraf's dwindling power in Islamabad.

PS: No one said Pakistanis are innocent in the affair.

I wrote:

Now while Pakistan Army was guilty of major excesses and should be criticized for its role not just after 25th March 1971... but also for its usurpation of Pakistan as a whole... there is no denying that the genocide went on both sides... Non-Bengali Speaking East Pakistanis were being butchered in 1970 way before Pakistan Army reacted... that too was genocide.

...


Indian arguments are ironic... they bring up Hindu pandits when one points out the enormous genocide inflicted by the fascist Indian Army in Kashmir... but in Bengal where a hapless population was butchered way before the Pakistan Army started its nasty business... no tears are shed for them.

BJkumar mian,

She shows that atleast two main sites of massacre changed the number casualties from 8 to 14000 ...

I am afraid none of your points are adequate rebuttals to Dr. Bose's analysis.

Waisay... interesting that you think the West Bengali grand niece of Subhas Chanderbose is a Pakistani agent.

#229 Manto

[…then came good ol' Dr. Bose of Harvard University…]

Ama Manto, stop making a fool of yourself (again)! This Bose girl’s account has been discredited on several fronts:

1) The only point she makes is that Sheikh Mujib (initially) did not want independence. Big deal! Of course he did not. He was the legitimately elected leader of Pakistan and should have been handed over the premiership of the whole country but was denied the same because the racist (West) Pakistanis lacked the guts to do so.

2) She refers to the letting loose of the Pakistani army on the hapless Bangladeshis as a “Civil War” – which was the term the 1971 Pakistani administration (and their backer, that regime of “I am not a crook” Nixon) was using to distribute the blame. I think that is rather dishonest.

3) “Violence was inflicted on both sides” – so it was a war! Big deal! Too bad the Bangladeshis did not turn the other cheek like the khakis wanted. So, when Mukhtaran Mai was being raped and she clawed at the rapists, you would say "violence was being inflicted on both sides!"

4) “Pakistani army did not inflict all the violence.” The Bose gal makes a distinction between what the Bengali collaborators of the khakis did did verus what the khakis did with their own hands. It is like saying that your gun does the actual shooting so you are not responsible for what it kills. I think it is highly dishonest – the collaborators, without the backing, encouragement, and fortification from the Pakistani khakis were zilch, as became evident right after the khakis folded up faster than a baby in diapers pees when somebody says “boo”!

And BTW, if the Pakistanis are so innocent in the affair, why not FINALLY publish the Hamidur Rahman report?! Cat got your tongue?

Perhaps the Pakistani propensity to deny the obvious is not limited to cases of its terrorist acts in India – but part of a long established pattern!

Perhaps the Pakistani motto can be summarized in three simple words:

“Pakistan is forever: to lie, to deny, and then to cry!”

Pakistan has always offered itself as a client state may it be the Americans, Brits, Chinese or Saudis, as long as the price is right Pakistan has been on the One-night stand offer list. Shortterm goals led to inconsistency in domestic and foreign policies and a constant need for a authoritarian state structure.

There are no innocent virgins in this matter starting from Ayub Khan right down till Musharraf and across the political spectrum, sub maal bikao hai (Moola, zamindar, industrialists, judges, cricketers).

After 60 years of its existence Pakistanis still do not have a consensus constitution nor do they have a popularly accepted Paki identity. We are Punjabis, Pukhtoons, Sindhis, Balochis first followed by deobandi, barelvi, shia, wahabi then baradari and this scale can change from situation to situation, but one thing is common and that is the Pakistani spirit always comes in the end.

Pakistani establishment has been shrewd and lucky in providing artificial support systems to a state that is always knocking on default/failure. Back in 1979 it was Jia lul phuck and his complete submission to the US-Saudi nexus that provided the authoritarian state with much needed relief and now in 2001 Mussarraf was given another opportunity. Artificial supports have created an impression of relative prosperity but failed to provide any political cohesion, Pakistanis today are far more divided and different the day this country came into existence. Temporary relief measures will prove to be far more difficult and the only solution will be amputation.

Masadi you creep !!!! (Utterly & Completely Respected)

So you are still trying to spread your bullshyte notions that have been rejected by the rest of the civilized world!!!!

Will you never learn ???

Don't you remember the hiding you got on faithfreedom.org( at the hands of Ali) ???

Don't you remember the disciplinary meetings in the US University just before they deported you in spite of your pleadings???

Don't you remember your abject surrender and begging/whining tone in which you implored for a second chance to be allowed to stay in the US????

Don't you remember the unceremonious manner in which you were comprehensively rejected and kicked out of the US??

Don't you remember the impish grin on the face of the US immigration (INS) official as you were dragged kicking and screaming to the airplane????

Don't you remember the "evil" students in your Pakistani college who made open mockery of the ideas you tried to teach them???

Don't you remember the management committee meeting which unanimously declared you "unfit" to train young Pakistani students???

Don't you remember how you were thrown out of that college and the security staff alerted to never let you enter again ???

Don't you remember how all your pleadings for "outstanding claims" were met with derisive laughter???

Don't you remember how the Chowk staff has consistently refused to publish your bullshyte articles???

Don't you remember how even lulu.com would not accept your "works" any more???

And now, you have found a one-man audience in the intelligent MADani.

Perhaps now you have reached the peak of your career.

Rejoice in your success.....

#229 Posted by MantoLives,

Even 300,000 is a very large number. One can safely divide it by two sine Mujeeb claimed it. I would think that maybe a third of even that would have been the TOTAL casualties of Bengalis, Beharis, and Pakistanis, on all sides of the civil war, over a period of more than a year till Dec 1971, max.

I'm still waiting for the answer as to why none of the Pak POWs who were interned in India for two years, never charged of any crime, either by India or B'Desh?

Dear Mohar,

I was one of those Pakistanis who believed unconditionally in the horrible massacre of Bangladeshis which I considered one sided.

Then along came good ol' Dr. Bose of Harvard University. She declared that there was nothing one sided in Bangladesh and revealed that several of the claims of massacres and genocide against the Pakistan Army were false.

Now while Pakistan Army was guilty of major excesses and should be criticized for its role not just after 25th March 1971... but also for its usurpation of Pakistan as a whole... there is no denying that the genocide went on both sides... Non-Bengali Speaking East Pakistanis were being butchered in 1970 way before Pakistan Army reacted... that too was genocide.

The official number claimed by Mujeeb in 1972 was mind you 300 000 ... how that number became 3 million is anyone's guess.

#226 Posted by mohar11,

Yaar Mohar, you feed people any shyte and they will believe it. Whenever any Pakistani says that, just ask him the same questions I asked you.

Where's the evidence?

Your arguments are exactly like Rumsfeld's. "If we don't have any evidence of it's existence, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means we haven't found it yet".

He really said that, and that's what you're saying.

#225 Posted by mohar11,

You tell me where it says there was a genocide or pogrom. BTW it was published first in India and only later in Pakistan.

Most pakis already acknowledge this fact of mass scale genocide in bdesh... it's very surprsing to hear you being denial... you being a non-liberaloon and all that...

What does Hamdoor Rehman report say?...it's only partially published - that itself says a lot... doesn't it?

#222 Posted by mohar11,

If the Chinese got hold of any Japanese after the war, they killed them all. Both nations are equally brutal. What's that got to do with the Pak/B'Desh example?

Yaar listen ... You're just arguing for the sake of arguing. There were 90,000 POWs in Bharat for a whole two years. Bharat's allies Sh. Mujeeb and the Muktis were incharge in B'desh. Why was not a single Pak POW brought to trial or even alleged of any war crime by B' Desh?

The answer is, there was no mass massacre. Atrocities towards individuals, yes, but no pogrom.

i mean - prosecution

zee

Point taken... what about japanese atrocities against chinese?... has there been any persecution?... or the point is - there are many cases of atrocities where guilt have not been taken to task...

#220 Posted by mohar11,

...no american has been prosecuted for atrocities in vietnam...

Hmm .. Lt. Calley and Ernest Medina and My Lai massacre.

So much for your ignorance of facts, which leaves no room for debate.

zee

Just because no american has been prosecuted for atrocities in vietnam doesn't mean it didn't happen...

Like I said - you are not differnt from the liberaloon... a true muslim will never deny holocaust bdesh...

[...confirmed by a survey conducted two years ago by the former Pakistan cricket captain turned politician, Imran Khan, in his own constituency of Mianwali. His research showed that 20% of government schools supposed to be functioning in his constituency did not exist at all, a quarter had no teachers and 70% were closed.]

20+25+70=115

kam se kam figures ko sahi tarike se quote karne ka tarika to sikhlo williamabheiya. May be 25 percent of 80 percent which existed. And may be 70 percent which were closed were not counted again in 25 percent without teachers. Just curious, what would the schools without teachers were doing daily? There could not any teaching surely. So may be bachche logs were entertained by a neighbourhood kalandar who showed drama of bandar bandaria ki shadi. Bachche log tali bajao.

#216 Posted by Kamath,

No Islamic Paradise, but certainly a very powerful Islamic bloc.

From wikipedia entry for Vagina Monologues:

[Every year a new monologue is added to highlight a current issue affecting women around the world. The monologue is performed at thousands of local V-Day benefit productions of the play that take place annually in February and March raising funds for local groups, shelters, crisis centers working to end violence against women. In 2003, for example, Ensler wrote a new monologue about the plight of women in Afghanistan under Taliban rule. This Monologue is known as "Under the Burqa."]

May be Ensler should write a Mukhtaran Monologue.

#208 Posted by zeemax

"..Islam is going through a natural upheaval, and it cannot be without violence. One group will emerge from all this as dominant over the others within Islam..."

Do you think Islam will go into an Resurgence Mode and will establish Dar-ul-Islam in the 21st century? Already it is fact Muslim population is prety big almost 2 Billions and still rising and rising, When motivated, inspired and armed by Islamic idealism, zeal etc.Do you think such Islamic Paradise will finally be ushered into our world?

Kamath

#213 Posted by mohar11,

Bring up any hard evidence of Pak mass atrocities in B'Desh in '71. No wikipedia or journalists' musings please.

Or alternatively, you may wonder why none of the Pak POWs was tried as war criminals by Bharat and neither did Sh. Mujib demand the same.

Now, I will ask you, how many Kashmiris have you killed? Is it because they are not Bharti hinuds or is it because they are rebels?

You'll find in the answer why there have been operations in Baluchistan.

Quotes from two places in article:

1. The Vagina Monologues was recently performed on stage to standing ovations.

2. As a result, in many of the more backward parts of Pakistan the local feudal zamindar can expect his people to vote for his chosen candidate. Such loyalty can be enforced. Many of the biggest zamindars have private prisons and most have private armies.

-----

So is it possible that a bunch of zamindars decided that they wanted to show how "progressive" they are and their loyal "subjects" and "prisoners" from their private prisons were called upon to be vociferous audience of the Monologues? Pakistan me kuchh bhi ho sakta hei. People going through motions of freedom and free thought! Should we expect real democracy in Pakistan within a decade? Surely if people do not feel threatened by the Monologues and all the rest of freedoms then democracy must not be far behind. Abhi Paksitan me democracy ai hi samjho. Wah bhei wah kitni khushi ki bat hei. Pakistani bachcho khade hokar taliyan bajao. Kyunki hamare des me democracy anevali hei.

211/zee

That's I what expect from liberaloon... not from you... only thing worse than killing your own is trying to cover it up with excuses... shame on you... :)

#210 Posted by mohar11,

do americans massacre each other...

Now you're really delusional. Did they hand roses to each other during the civil war? One of the most brutal wars ever?

#209 Posted by mohar11,

30,000 Pakistani soldiers killed a million bengalis? How? Where? Where're they buried? Or were they all dumped in the sea?

The only atrocity by Pak soldiers was in Dacca Uni where a mass grave was found containing a few dozen. Rest were individual acts of troops against the muktis and their sympathisers. This thing about 'a million' is a lie and carefully crafted disinformation.

global players do not have to devour their own... do americans massacre each other...

zee

An who killed a million bengalis?... thousands of balochis?...were the killers muslims or kafirs... ?

Mushy is not a kafir... he is as muslim as you... he has no qualms in killing other muslims because that's what muslims have always done and still doing...

And what "sling" you have put mushy in?... he is still the king, still ruling and will continue for a long time... he will continue to kill fellow muslims on whatever pretext... there ain't nothing you can do about that...

Being emotional will not help... face the facts... stop behaving like a liberaloon...

#207 Posted by mohar11,

Hinuds are not and have never been global players. Muslims have always been that. There's no similarity in their world-views nor are they comparable as a people.

Islam is going through a natural upheaval, and it cannot be without violence. One group will emerge from all this as dominant over the others within Islam.

And for the injustice they have done to their own - present-day hinuds have put in extra-ordinary measures to correct the mistakes and uplift the depressed sections of their population... even though - the measures have fell short of the need... neverhtless...

#204 Posted by mohar11,

First thing you have to understand is that it was musharraf who massacred the school girls, which is why his ass is in a sling and his soldiers being beheaded.

Next, it was musharraf who bombed FATA which is another reason why his ass is in a sling and his soldiers being beheaded.

Get it into your head that it is 'Muslims' who put the kafir musharraf's ass in that sling.

Once musharraf leaves, the killings in Pak will stop (except of the kanjaroons which will be fair because they supported this kanjar and if they still don't got the memo).

Get it now?

zee
[...How many of the christian europeans slaughtered each other...]

My point exactly... compare to that - hinuds have managed much better as a group, relatively speaking... intra-group slaughter has never happened - even though economic and political suppression of caste groups was rampant...

Now - since you are the smart-a## know-all - you tell me: why do muslim have to follow the same path as the european?... Are you incapable of learning from other's mistakes?...

zee

you tell me - why use white phosperous on your own children?... that's the most painful death that can ever happen to any human....

In comparsion - hinuds, bloodthirsty as they are - never used even helicopter gunships in kashmir - even while fighting vicious jihadis... they rarely bombed mosques - even while jihadis were hiding there...

Don't try to be like liberaloon... don't be a hypocrite... :)

#202 Posted by mohar11,

How many of the christian europeans slaughtered each other before they became the EU? Are you so dumb not to understand Islam will follow the same path being 600 years younger?