The Transformation of the Punjabi Man: Pashtunization or Militarization?

zahid id like to point out that loads of people can hate the MQM there are valid reasons for that. But tying yourself into knots to make any ludicrous argument just to insult some form of muhajir/upite/bihari/memon is the only consistent theme in your posts.
You have said up is down left is right poor is rich so many times we should call you cybil e khusk.

#224 Zahid-e-Khushk {"It's ridiculous to see that in Pakistan Utter Perdeshis and Bihharis have become cohorts whereas in India an Utter Perdeshi won't probably shake hands of any Bihari, let alone Memons etc. ..."}

Khushk Sahib,
Lagta he zara ziyaada khushki he aap meN. :) Issko rookhapan bhi kaha jaasakta he.

The reason that all these diverse groups have come together is similar to passengers on a sinking ship wanting to share a lifeboat - or better yet, all the victims of injustice forming a sympathy group or even an action group against their common suffering.

If the Pisser-e-Zameen had not behaved so illogically and exercised brute force to subdue the people who migrated from India (and were not Punjabi speaking), then there would have been no need for MQM. What is it about injustice and oppression that you DON'T understand?

#224 Posted by zahid_e_khushk

"It's ridiculous to see that in Pakistan Utter Perdeshis and Bihharis have become cohorts whereas in India an Utter Perdeshi won't probably shake hands of any Bihari, let alone Memons etc."

You are so full of shit its not even funny. Care to provide some proof of this? and no anectodal evidence does not count.

"This marriage of convenience won't last the establishment of the Jinnahpur. We'd then see things like Bihari QM and Memon QM."

You idiot most of the leadership of the MQM is second generation they don't know anything about their villages in up or bihar whats more important is whether you're from nazimabad or lalukhet, and mohajir/urdu speaking is practically homogeneous at this point with very slight variaton according to regional affiliation.

Zahid-e-Khushk # 182 {"This completes the circle:
The offspring of the villagers from U.P. and Bihar in small cities are less successful in small cities. The offspring of the villagers from U.P. and Bihar in Karachi are more successful.
The villagers in Pakistan are less successful but the offspring of the villagers from Pakistani provinces in Karachi are equally successful in Karachi like the MQM clientel.:}


Khushk Sahib,
The only circle that is obvious is your circular and erroneous logic. You keep repeating "offspring of villagers from UP and Bihar." Do you not realize that the overwhelming majority of Muslims in northern India lived in large and medium-sized cities - Lucknow, Agra, Delhi, Muradabad, Meerut, AligaRh, Shahjahanpur, Rampur, Bareilly, Kanpur, Allahbad, Banares, AzamgaRh, Muzzafarnagar, Bijnor, Saharanpur, FarehgaRh, Badayun, Sultanpur, Sitapur, Faizabad, and many many more such places? They were already accustomed to living and thriving in urban centers - long before partition. That is exactly why they wanted to settle in Lahore first, and then were directed to go to Karachi by the West Punjabi authorities.

If they were villagers, like many East Punjabi refugees, don't you think that they would have settled in the available farmlands of Punjab and Sindh? You are not making any sense out of your obviously misguided and seemingly racist theory.

GT #225 "That weapon is the vote and the condition is democracy. Sure an imperfect weapon and an imperfect condition. But that is the most effective thing that we have. So, we should all strive for that condition and get that weapon. This includes even those who support the state, the mqm, the ruling religion etc. at present.. "

Well said. This is why I see the current crisis in Pakistan as being an issue of dictatorship vs democracy. All other issues - communal, ethnic etc. - are dealt with far more effectively under a democracy than a dictatorship. And this is where mqm has demonstrated the short-sighted and narrow-minded thinking of its leadership.

PS: Interestingly, BB in an article in the WP today paints the current crisis as being one of "moderation vs extremism", not one of "democracy vs dictatorship". This shows just how badly she seeks power, like musharraf, even if it means such severe damage to the long term interests of Pakistan, and peace and stability in the region.

#223 cb: Like I said, you can - indeed, should be - pleased with your ethnic heritage, just like everyone else. This is consistent with - indeed goes hand in glove with, as I will explain in a minute - loving other cultures too (and you dont need me to tell you that, as is obvious from your posts).

It is people who are miserable with themselves who try to spread this misery around by playing the "victim" or ridiculing or blaming others. Ultimately, they are the worst enemies not just of others, but of their own ethnic groups and indeed of their own selves.

Hope you get my drift... (as GT would say)... :-)

Clifto,

Old timers in chowk know what I am driving at. You and zahid are new so let me spell it out if you do not mind. You see, I claimed earlier that each individual should have the power to oppose the state (broadly defined and hence includes the mqm, russian and turkish mafia). You will say that this is ridiculous. How can an individual fight the state with its mighty army, goonda force etc. I fully agree. I was simply stretching a point to put across a point. However, there is a weapon, a teeny weeny weapon which at times can be used against a state under certain conditions. That weapon is the vote and the condition is democracy. Sure an imperfect weapon and an imperfect condition. But that is the most effective thing that we have. So, we should all strive for that condition and get that weapon. This includes even those who support the state, the mqm, the ruling religion etc. at present. Why so? Because tomorrow that state may not be with us. It is in this context that mohajir-punjabi, hindu-muslim, pakistan-india polemics are useless. First let us equip ourselves with democracy and then, and only then, let all these fights commence once again. I believe that they will have a different flavor then. The power holders today - mqm, the dictator, fazloo, mullah omar, sonia, ambani etc. are well aware of this weapon which can be used against them. So they will resist the move towards democracy. I would too if I had a monopoly over power. But I do not and I believe that most people do not. So lets forget our differences, only for the time being, and fight for democracy.

It's ridiculous to see that in Pakistan Utter Perdeshis and Bihharis have become cohorts whereas in India an Utter Perdeshi won't probably shake hands of any Bihari, let alone Memons etc. It's all about the hate for Non-Mahajirs and that sinister state of mind is the basis of this unholy alliance. This marriage of convenience won't last the establishment of the Jinnahpur. We'd then see things like Bihari QM and Memon QM.

hmmm GT and chachoo

I totally agree with the ideologic entity of one love and one world. How we will get that to happen is another story entirely.
I must agree that GT's point is valid and ethnic chauvanism comes from the same well spring as racial national religious and political intolerance.
People do have a genuine desire to seek universal commmonality and also they have a innate desire to idetify with insular community at the same time. Which desire wins out over the other depends on prevelant justice, alternatives and leadership.

#219 Posted by tahmed32

No it was from zahid's post. You are too mature (old? :-)) to make such a statement.

clifton,

Yaar even handedness wandedness theek hai, lekin yeh sab hawa se nahin aati. Even handedness comes when each and every human being is able to protect herself, nay retaliate with force ... against (in the extreme) the state. All this, not necessarily through violence but the option should be there. It is only then that we will, grudgingly perhaps, be 'forced' to live in peace with those with whom we disagree.

On a lighter note: Why do you think I refrain from gali galoch in chowk? Because I know that there are people who can give it back to me 10 times more. If there were no one giving gaalis in chowk, I would have become the biggest gaali baaz on chowk (I still aspire to do so in the near future). You see gaalis on chowk are a necessary evil and hence nobody should be banned because of gaalis. You take out one till there is another till there is no one left (crying ikaan).

cliftonbridge: I think national armies are part of the nation-state system. As an increasingly pluralistic world and an increasingly unified global economy reduce national boundries to something akin to state boundries in the US or provincial boundries in Pakistan, the nation-state system and the corresponding national armies are bound to become less and less important with time.

#217 GT: no apologies needed, sir, except...i dont think that is a quote from any of my posts.

GT: I think the open-mindedness of stuka and ylh with respect to issues of communalism, racism, ethnicism in fact makes them very much consistent with the realities of today and even more so of tomorrow as I mentioned in #216 below.

I agree fully with your statement about nationalism btw. I can love Pakistan and India and the US at the same time. Even if it sends masadi climbing up the wall shrieking in anger.

Due apologies tahmed sahib, one last go.

"MQM managed to make its clientel feel like a pack of victims in perpetual danger of extinction should they not start hating and killing others to expand their living space."

This is too good. Which "group" does not do the same? In fact the 'success' of a group depends crucially on whether it 'manages to make its clentel' feel that way. I mean one can start from the board meeting of Goldman Sachs to the board meetings of the Tutsis and in the process pass through almost all group meetings in the world.

As I said earlier, morality worality choro yaar. Ultimately, as the great sage of chowk says "... its hamidm2 or masadi, CHOOSE."

GT #211 Sure I know where you are going: Back to future (i.e. back to partition). :-)

The partition is water under the bridge. That does not change any other reality - e.g. the common bonds of Pakistanis and Indians as demonstrated by chowk itself (which is as easy for any other nationality to access as Pakistanis and Indians, but almost exclusively attracts Pakistanis and Indians only.

And another reality is that most of these "Pakistanis" and "Indians" are in fact now also Americans (either legally, or practically as residents).

Add up these realities, and what do you get? and answer to your comment about defining society. Society, in a very real sense is all of mankind. With each passing year, this reality of a common future becomes more and more significant. And the reality of ethnic/communal/racial divisions becomes more and more a matter of the past with each passing year. And that is why I wrote earlier that parties like mqm have no place in the future.