The Transformation of the Punjabi Man: Pashtunization or Militarization?

tahmed

"In Bangladesh, the shalwar-kameez is called the "Panjabi" and worn gracefully as a fashion statement by their girls.

This is an example of how, despite political bitternesses (as in case of Bangladeshis in 1971), ordinary people are in fact quite capable of appreciating different cultures."

Very pathetic tahmed, what a conclusion to draw from dress styles. The jihadis who flew aircraft into the buildings hated everything american, and they were wearing pants, not the pakistani dress.

What a great symbol of appreciation of the western culture by the jihadis.

The question regarding the lackluster performance of the brethren of the MQM clientel --doing so well in Karachi – in their ancestral homeland of U.P. and Bihar was only tangentially addressed. Salim (# 123) shifted unjustifiably the focus to the failure of the Muslims in U.P. and Bihar leaving the more or less equally backward Hindus in the same states unmentioned who certainly don’t stand under the suspicion of being the ‘fifth column of Pakistan’ and so couldn’t explain the underperformance of these two states. The Hindus in some other states are more successful. The technology centers are outside these two states.

Another important point was missed here. A comparison between the performance of the offspring of the villagers from U.P. and Bihar living in Karachi and other smaller cities like Hyderabad and Sukkur puts all this in a new light. They’re not doing so well in such smaller cities. Or one could also say they’re doing equally well there but the boundaries of the unfolding of talents are too small in such cities. The infrastructure is not much helpful there. But they’re certainly not talented and entrepreneurial enough to bring in a change there or at least to break the boundaries of the system for their own development.

A look at the performance of the offspring of the villagers from other parts of Pakistan who came to Karachi with similar dreams like the villagers from U.P. and Bihar tells us that they’re much more successful than their relatives still living in the constraints of their villages and small towns of Pakistan. They’re generally not less successful than the MQM clientel. I hope this clientel would agree having got mates in schools, colleges, universities and colleagues in the professional world from other ethnic groups.

This completes the circle:

The offspring of the villagers from U.P. and Bihar in small cities are less successful in small cities. The offspring of the villagers from U.P. and Bihar in Karachi are more successful.
The villagers in Pakistan are less successful but the offspring of the villagers from Pakistani provinces in Karachi are equally successful in Karachi like the MQM clientel.

It makes the point clear and that’s the Karachi connection: Karachi makes successful!
Since there’s no Karachi in U.P. and Bihar, these people are still backward. Since there is no Karachi in the rural Sind, Baluchistan and NWFP, these people are still backward.

#169 TAhmed

"I assume you are referring to my post #52. In that post, I provided some very specific reasons why I believe this "ethnic issue" of mqm is not justified by the realities. If you disagree with my reasoning, then please explain why. But dont just ignore what i took the trouble of trying to explain by misrepresenting what I was said and rejecting it and conveniently ignoring what I wrote".

I did read your reasons in that post and found all four of them equally amusing. Which one would you want me to rebut?

In the conclusion of that post you state:

"So, look to the future of Pakistan, and a violence-prone, dictator-loving, divisive group like mqm has no place in it. The issue facing Pakistan today is the restoration of democracy - and mqm has betrayed the rest of Pakistan with its support for dictatorship based on its narrow-minded ethnic view of things".

Now why single out the mqm over here (mind you I am among those who detest mqm's politics)? Which of the political parties in Pakistan has not sided with a dictator at one time or another? MMA and PML (NS and his entire coterie included) were in cahouts with Gen. Zia (who was, BTW, both President and COAS at the same time; no questions asked). Why haven't you called for their disbanding as well? Oh, wait a minute... they must not have betrayed the nation; or, may be, they were not sufficiently divisive; or, democracy was not the issue then (it is only so now). Nothing ethnic about it, of course if the players are Punjabis, Sindhis and Pashtuns. But urdu-speaking ethnics? Why, that is intolerable ... it is.. it is .. it is treason.

PML as well as PPP have both been violent in their times, in East Pakistan, in Balochistan, in Karachi and, now, in NWFP, of course. And thugs, all of them, to boot. Your heart doesn't seem to bleed except when MQM is violent.

Why?

Is this what your education has taught you? or was it your parents?

"No one benefits from playing the "victim" card that you keep playing. This makes you no better than a street ghoonda who enjoys the luxury of self-pity and demonization of other communities. On the other hand, everybody benefits when you try to act like an educated man and look at the broader interests of the society you live in".

Sorry, in my uneducated world what is sauce for goose is sauce for gander. For the "broader interest of the society" you will have to seek the help of the feudals of Punjab and Sindh.

Me, I am just a street ghoonda (shrug ...).

Thanks God! MAJ died almost 59 years ago otherwise MAJ would be branded a Hindustora Terrorist by the Punjabis and Pakhtoons would have branded him a stooge for the ideas MAJ stood up for ( rights for minorities, democracy, constitution, secular Pakistan )

#170 HP

"An urdu speaking cannot give up victimhood. These poor soul had every hindu in India against them and now they have every Pakistani who is not urdu speaking against them.
You live in a mental enclave you created for yourself".

Oh well ... I knew I couldn't hide the real reasons from your piercing gaze. It was worth a try anyway .

BTW, what gave me away? Was it my begging for the quota system for the mohajirs?

"Sindhi grievence against both Urdu speakings and the MQM can arguably be justified but what Punjabi, pashtoon and Baloch could possibly have against the urdu speaking? Nothing whasoever. why blame them?".

You are absolutely right. My sincere apologies to all Balochis. It is just that Punjabis and Pashtuns have been demonstrating their unrestrained love for us since way back in the 60's. It started with Ayub Khan letting his sons loose in Karachi, accompanied by truck loads of euphoric Pashtun admirers of Karchiites. He was even more admiring towards urdu-speaking migrants in his autobigraphy titled "Friends not Masters"( written for him by Altaf Gauhar. You will recall that the field marshal did not take the B.A exam at Aligarh for the sake of the nation). Some say that the title was meant to taunt Uncle Sam, but I have my doubts.

Punjabis, of course not to be outdone, decided to do one better on the Pashtuns, and unleashed their affection by deciding to conquer Karachi in 1992. BB took the queue right thereafter in her second term. Not that anyone was violent towards the urdu speakers ... absolutely not. Pakistanis are very peace loving people, you know; but, in their own zeal to reciprocate the unabashed passion on display (by Naseeruallah Babar in particular), urdu speaking youth were sacrificing themselves by the hundreds in not so "discreet encounters" in the dark of the nights.

"If Punjabi hated Mush because he was a mohajir, then why were they distributing sweets in 1999 when the very same Mushy had overthrown a punjabi PM?".

Dunno. Do they need a reason to do the unthinkable? Why don't you ask them? And while you are at it, could you please also find out why they now want to distribute even more sweets when he (NS) returns from exile?

"Mohajir don’t own Pakistan that country belongs to everyone who lives there. Get out of this Prima Donna complex. There is nothing special in Mohajirs".

Brilliant point! As a matter of fact, it is the Sindhis, Punjabis, and Pashtuns who own the country; Punjabis more than others (we can ignore Balochis for the time being). As for mohajirs, they are "panahgirs", or so I was told since my childhood.

But do allow me to disagree with you about mohajirs not being special. I believe they are. Nothing formal of course, but many Sindhis (especially the jeay Sindh variety) refer to us as "makkaRs" (you know, piyar se ...). Others yet prefer "matarua" instead (as you may have noted elsewhere on this board). So just humor us this once, will you ... pleeez?

"I have been reading the non sense you guys have been posting on this board for the last two days. I am not going to point fingers just go back and read your own posts and see for yourself how chauvinistic you all are".

I can imagine your consternation. BTW, why can't you point fingers? Are they engaged otherwise by any chance?

Mohajirs are highly mobilized, in the urban center of Sind. Both the Bhutto (PPP) and the Sharifs (PML) governments targeted Mohajir activists and political organizations for repression, and the current Musharraf (PML) government has continued to do the same in many ways. The Mohajirs have a strong sense of political and economic grievance, and their history demonstrates their unwillingness to be ignored. Karachi and the well being of Mohajirs are intrinsically related. Until the Pakistani government can alleviate the social, economic and political problems plaguing its major city, Mohajir grievances cannot be addressed.
Mohajirs are both Shi`a and Sunni Muslims. They are ethnicly distinct from the Punjabi majority. However, most Mohajirs primary identity is not religious but revolves around our "outsider" status.Yes, united under MQM.

Re: # 126

I also do so if it was 122 by zeemax.

As regards the quality of leadership in Pakistan generally the economic formula - 'bad money drives out good money'- is working today.

“If pakistan is made of pakistanis then there is NO need for the quota system....the quota system re affirms that there are diff communities and diff. ethnicities need to be protected from each other ”

No! quota system does not affrim that the communities needs to be protected from each others. It just points to the historic imbalances in economic developments and attempt to correct that.
It is not about protection. Sindhi are a majority in Sindh and they don’t need protection but they do need economic parity based on their population. The quota only impacts the govt job and is not enforceable on the private sector. Private sector in Karachi produces more jobs than the government ever can and 90% of those jobs go to the karachi residents.

Quota system is a part of the democractic process to allow every community equal opportunities in the economic system.

Affirmative action in the US is a form of quota system and it is enforceable on the private sector too. Quota has produced dramatic results in improving the lot of the backward communities in India.

Racism often shows up in inadvertant comments like it showed up in many comments here including your own.

Clifton baji..i think quota system was our version of affirmative action..but i do agree in principal..u dont give advantage on the basis of ethnicity..if u want to bring ppl up than u should hand out free bees on the basis of neighbourhoods regardless of linguistic lineage..that'll probably work better. MQM and its leadership has done nothing but ruined the good name that our forefathers earned...we were hard-working, eloquent ppl...its quite ironic that our supposed speokesperson is a chooran wala.

I dont think zee or tahmed have said anything racist on this board. Loads of muhajirs also hate the MQM and Mush...that would not neccessarily be racism.

chachoo only a real animal would hate another person for speaking another language or wearing another dress etc ...nearly noone is that hateful. But re. victimhood and racism i just want to leave you with this one thought.

If pakistan is made of pakistanis then there is NO need for the quota system....the quota system re affirms that there are diff communities and diff. ethnicities need to be protected from each other (because muhajirs were making victims out of every other community)

Ironically thats exactly what the MQM says ...the muhajir community is different and needs to be protected against others. ITS THE SAME ARGUMENT THE GOVT MAKES.

It is really sad to admit this but pakistani's are often very racist people, the quota system says it all. That is flat out racism. MQM ANP jeay sindh PPI etc just rephrase the argument.

Re: # 102

The Holy Quran says that the woman is one digree less than the man and that man is superior ('afzal') to woman.

My experience of dealing with the woman as a woman (apart from her familial relationships) also confirms this.

HP #170 I see you picked up on the same line from brother viqarm as I did. ;-)

cliftonbridge #165 Well said. Life is so much more fun when you appreciate all cultures. When I used to go to Bangladesh, we were invited once to a Bangladeshi family - who entertained us the traditional Bangla way by having their young daughters sing traditional songs after dinner. I was pleasantly surprised when, after singing some beautiful Bangla songs, they switched to some traditional Panjabi songs. In Bangladesh, the shalwar-kameez is called the "Panjabi" and worn gracefully as a fashion statement by their girls.

This is an example of how, despite political bitternesses (as in case of Bangladeshis in 1971), ordinary people are in fact quite capable of appreciating different cultures.

#168 Posted by viqarm
“TAhmed insists that no one is against the Urdu speakers in Pakistan while there is every indication that, at the very least, that is a major factor in the universal hatred of both MQM and Mush”

An urdu speaking cannot give up victimhood. These poor soul had every hindu in India against them and now they have every Pakistani who is not urdu speaking against them.
You live in a mental enclave you created for yourself. Sindhi grievence against both Urdu speakings and the MQM can arguably be justified but what Punjabi, pashtoon and Baloch could possibly have against the urdu speaking? Nothing whasoever. why blame them?

If Punjabi hated Mush because he was a mohajir, then why were they distributing sweets in 1999 when the very same Mushy had overthrown a punjabi PM?

Mohajir don’t own Pakistan that country belongs to everyone who lives there. Get out of this Prima Donna complex. There is nothing special in Mohajirs.

I have been reading the non sense you guys have been posting on this board for the last two days. I am not going to point fingers just go back and read your own posts and see for yourself how chauvinistic you all are.

viqarm #168 you write TAhmed insists that no one is against the Urdu speakers in Pakistan while there is every indication that, at the very least, that is a major factor in the universal hatred of both MQM and Mush.

I assume you are referring to my post #52. In that post, I provided some very specific reasons why I believe this "ethnic issue" of mqm is not justified by the realities. If you disagree with my reasoning, then please explain why. But dont just ignore what i took the trouble of trying to explain by misrepresenting what I was said and rejecting it and conveniently ignoring what I wrote.

No one benefits from playing the "victim" card that you keep playing. This makes you no better than a street ghoonda who enjoys the luxury of self-pity and demonization of other communities. On the other hand, everybody benefits when you try to act like an educated man and look at the broader interests of the society you live in.

#159
"
and we have HP ofcourse wailing that any one with a heart would die at the thought of supporting a racist party..."

HP is, by his own admission, a jiye Sindh stalwart, and a confirmed idiot. Zahid-e-khushk may be khushk alright but one finds nothing Zahid about him. Zeemax is apalled that Haider Abbas Rizvi has the nerve to talk back in the presence of, oh so cultured, feudal Punjabi elite. TAhmed insists that no one is against the Urdu speakers in Pakistan while there is every indication that, at the very least, that is a major factor in the universal hatred of both MQM and Mush. Otherwise BB, NS, and the rest of motley crowd has done hundred times worse, whether in looting or in killing, while sucking this country dry.

If only the political parties/leaders/value systems of these scions of virtue had anything worthwhile to offer; but they don't and have demonstrated it time and time again over the last 60 years.

None of this, of course, justifies the ghundagardi of MQM, or me, me, and more me of
the supreme general. Unfortunately, in the system that has existed in Pak, only the scum rises to the top.