The Transformation of the Punjabi Man: Pashtunization or Militarization?

you are so right ...racism stinks ..except when you do it :)

"it prevents an ethnic minority from taking over jobs which rightfully belong to the majority community"

i am converted!!!

#159 Posted by cliftonbridge

“BTW werent you celebrating a few weeks ago when actual nazis attacked a bunch of brown skinned indians?”

Lol! I was not celebrating anything I was supporting Tahmed’s right to post anything he wants. Where did you get the idea that those German’s were nazis? Two groups of different ethnicity fight and one gets beat up. Now the winning group is Nazi because that group happens to be German. Fascinating ideas!

People who have nothing better to do but write thousands of posts in three hours times often don’t have a clue as to what they are writing and you certainly are joining the ranks.

Your comments in that post were clearly racist as you support a party knowning fully well that their views are as close to racism as one can get.

And how in the hell supporting quota system equals to supporting racism? You are out of your senses. Quota was good and it is still good as it prevents an ethnic minority from taking over jobs which rightfully belong to the majority community.

#163 ...But thats just ridiculous. Why would you say that? Punjabi culture is all over the subcontinent, i have never been to a single wedding pakistani or indian that wasnt by its nature a "punjabi" wedding. Its a very vibrant culture. Cant speak for indian punjab but not only do punjabis "rule" punjab but also pakistan for the most part.
And fratricide isnt an ethnic trait.
Stop beating yourself up.

Could it be possible that Punjabis have a more individualistic nature?

As a proud Punjabi, and also a kaura truthful person, I have come to the following conclusion:

Punjabi's have never ruled Punjab, except that dangar idiot Ranjit Singh, who destroyed Punjab during 40 years of his 'rule'.

Punjabis are complex ridden dangars. They have tried to mimick foreigners and lost everything including their language. Even those funny looking poorbias and madrasis have protected their heritage better than these dangars.

If time permits, I will soon write an article about that bewakoof idiot Ranjit Singh, who these Punjabis worship.

Their only claim to fame is fratercide. This is only exception, where they have successfully mimicked and surpassed Muslim invaders legacy' of betrayal for personal gain.

There is only one difference between a dangar and a Punjabi; A dangar learns by 'kicking against the pricks'- The Punjabi hasn't.

I wonder people are so engaged in discussing a topic that wasn't addressed by the writer of this article. I can't see any link between Daniel Berk's views which I found very thoughtful and the politics of a fascist party obsessed with destruction. Khalid Ahmed's article was equally interesting. But I feel that Khalid Ahmed simplified some things. Daniel could present things in a systematic way and his thesis makes sense. More important is his way of analysis.

"So, the real enemies of any society are those who create lawlessness. So, once again, we come back full circle to the importance of the rule of law. And the fact that our military generals and too many political leaders consider themselves above the law when they are in power makes them the real enemies of society"

chachoo laws are made based on what people agree is right. Its very complicated at this point in pakistan. Although the checks and balance type of democracy is ofcourse the ideal but i havent seen it work that way ever in pakistan. Mush may have screwed up big time and its time for him to leave but seeing BB back isnt cause for celebration in my book :)

Zahid,

Welocome to chowk. You make a good point when you say that the ones with power (economic/political) do not usually migrate. However, it is also generally true that the ones totally devoid of power do not migrate. This is because either they do not have the resources for doing so or because they do not have the confidence of doing better outside the existing (feudal) structure or both. Thus most migrants are from the middle. Granted that most of them must be from the middle middle or lower middle classes. Usually members of this class are very dynamic and given the right environment (Karachi as you suggest) they blossom.

While you Pakistanis have been discussing the impact on these migrants on Pakistan along several dimensions, I find it very strange that the Indian reaction is very unidimensional (at least in chowk). Usually, the reaction is that of relief - thank God otherwise we would have had a lot of terrorism etc. However, there is another dimension that is hardly mentioned. These Muslim poets, writers, teachers etc. took with them a lot of 'culture'. Delhi today is ruled by a crass and vulgar culture and old timers miss the tehzeeb (Correct word?). Lukhnow perhaps lost its aristocratic/feudal culture which may be a good thing ... though I would give a lot to watch a live performance by Umrao Jaan.

Welcome once again.

Regards.

I think the best argument is to stick to the fact that MQM is violent and ethnically motivated. Zee could well be right about MQM being more corrupt than the lahore govt, although i am not convinced of that just yet.

The rest of the arguments are as usual brayings inconsistent with any constant reality with zahid first saying that the rich karachi muhajirs have poor cousins in india ...and then deciding that actually maybe its the indians who have poor cousins in karachi...all in the same day.

and we have HP ofcourse wailing that any one with a heart would die at the thought of supporting a racist party...HP you are so right racism is nazism, its totally unacceptable and supporting a party or a govt that has racist elements is akin to being a killer. Funny how so many people in pakistan support the quota system instead of tarring and feathering the govt that dared to suggest it. Why have you accepted the naked racism of your govt without so much as an oof? Why havent you died from the pain of being such a racist?

BTW werent you celebrating a few weeks ago when actual nazis attacked a bunch of brown skinned indians?

Its hard to have a reasonable discussion with people who will say anything to win an argument.

#156 Posted by zahid_e_khushk

Another good one!

“Lets be fair. I agree that MQM is a racist party in many ways and that part is wrong....but its only fair to admit that they do at the same time have progressive middle class aspirations and values and that is a key part of their appeal.”

Resonates with:
"National socialist party (Nazi party) was racist in many ways and that part was wrong but Nazis brought the German nation together and that was the key part of their appeal".

Accepting MQM as a racist party and then condoning its racism is supporting racism. What do you expect from people who consider racism okay because it helped a certain middle class?

Zahid, I appreciate your well reasoned and informative posts.

Zahid is right in suggesting that most of the Urdu speaking trace their roots to small towns and villages in UP, Bihar and other central Indian provinces. Bulk of the mohajirs are from small town Rajasthan and very few are from the major Rajasthan cities.
But being from villages did not mean that they did not have education. They are the sons of small zamindars etc of those areas as has been pointed out by Salim. People in Sindh are familiar with Sarsoon Kay Bagh, podinay kay Bagh stories etc.

The argument that Muslims being the ruling class in India might have gathered some expertise has weight. But the attempt to describe the mass migration as an exodus of the 'fitter', 'risk takers' and 'entrepreneurs' while the unfit ones chosing to stay in their old climate needs further clarification. The history tells us that such big changes in life are strived for by those who're on the losing side. The people winning in a system are usually conservative and have every reason to preserve the status quo. The losers strive for a change and a different system where the odds of their being on the winning side would or at least could rise. They're more daring. So who might've the reason to dare a change in the life in the prepartition India and emigrate to a new country: The winners or the losers? Who could've opted for staying there in the same system? Should the partition be seen as a kind of natural selection segregating the fitters from the unfit ones and sending them to a new land or it happened the other way around and the 'fitter ones' opted for staying there?

Lets be fair. I agree that MQM is a racist party in many ways and that part is wrong....but its only fair to admit that they do at the same time have progressive middle class aspirations and values and that is a key part of their appeal.

urstruly i am not sure why thats hooeey. "muhajirs" came from all over india including south india anyone who landed in karachi/hyderabad became "muhajir". Why did they not become sindhi? Because it was a SOCIALLY different group of people who couldnt identify or find a place in feudal society which at this point is the dominant theme of sindi society. Their not being feudal may not neccessarily be a mark of moral superiority but just the obvious condition of not having any land. Either case, made them outsiders.

#147 zahid-e-khushk {"The myth surrounding the contribution of the MQM clientel ...can be unraveled if the same clientel ponders on the difference between them and their brethern still living in the villages of U.P. and Bihar. Why're these castles of their ethnic group so retarded in their homeland? Why couldn't they become 'able' as they are supposedly in Karachi? ...The MQM clientel misses or intentionally blankets the point that being a port city Karachi was predestined to be a large metropole like many such thriving cities all over the world irrespective of the presence of a particular ethnic group. If that economic success of Karachi is to be seen as an outcome of the presence of the offspring of the people from U.P. and Bihar then why are these two states still so backward where they're not robbed by any other ethnic group?"}

Khushk Sahib,
Obviously you are not very familiar with the history, demographics, and the infrastructure of northern India. First of all, there are not that many Muslims living in the villages of UP and Bihar. Much of the zamindar tabqa of UP and Bihar migrated to Karachi or Dacca after partition and further ad-hoc migrations have occurred directly to the mid-East and the West. Almost the entire artisan, entrepreneurial, managerial, and educational component of the Delhi Muslim population also migrated to Karachi. Similarly, the significant Urdu-speaking population of the then East Punjab (Patiala, Karnal, etc) also migrated to Pakistan. Those who migrated were either forced to do so (Delhi, East Punjab, Bihar, Hyderabad)as a result of mass killings or chose to do so, as in most of UP. Those who chose to migrate were generally the more enterprising, the educated, and the risk-takers.

What were left in UP were mostly the less enterprising zamindars, the less educated urbanites, or the passionately Indian nationalists of the Congressi variety. The departure of their aggressive brethren, the ensuing enmity between India and Pakistan, and the labeling of the Muslim residue in India as fifth columnists further deteriorated their safety, prosperity, and position as Indian nationals.

Also, please consider the fact that for almost 600 years, most of North India was ruled by Muslims who assembled the mostly Muslim (and considerably Muslim/Hindu Rajput) military and administrative power structure around their capitals of Delhi and Agra. It would be natural for the descendants of this military/administrative base of the Mughals and the Delhi Sultanate to be quite talented in the business of bureaucracy, police, and management. Karachi, being a port city, was not the primary reason for the Mohajirs' success in Pakistan. They would have done even better in Lahore if they had been allowed to settle there in huge numbers.

Re: # 148 That is one bunch of hooey

It's true that some immigrants were doing well in India and brought with them their expertise and some money to 'pump the Pakistani economy'. But this can't be said about the masses. The people in Bihar might be smart but this doesn't explain why Bihar is one of the poorest states in India. These intelligent people couldn't make their stat a technology hub like the neighboring states could do.

The fact can't be denied that MQM is a rasict party and not a middle class pressure group with some forward looking 'aspirations'! The politics of MQM is not pro-Mahajir but anti-Nonmahajir! That's why it doesn't see Karachi's problems in a political perspective but in a racial one. Not construction but destruction drives it.