The Transformation of the Punjabi Man: Pashtunization or Militarization?

Tahmed Sahib #276 {"When mqm-types ridicule the rest of Pakistan as illiterate villagers, it is you who expose yourself to the kinds of questions zahid raised"}

Tahmed Sahib,
What you call "ridicule" I would prefer calling "regret" or "condemnation." Yes, it hurts us (and angers us) to see millions of our fellow Pakistanis suffering under the yoke of feudalism, deliberately and carefully manufactured ignorance and illiteracy, nonsensical and pernicious religious extremism, and self-defeating and stupid oppression of females. The poor serfs who toil under the Vaderas, Chaudhrys, Sardars, and Amirs of the four provinces are a disgrace to a modern Muslim society. If India could have land reform, how come Pakistan cannot? Or is that the holy cow of Pakistan's privileged Brahmins?

Tahmed Sahib,
The Mohajirs of Karachi and Hyderabad have almost nothing to do with the relative standing of UP & Bihar in development. The Mohajirs of Karachi and Hyderabad have a big say, a significant contribution, and a lot at stake in the development of Sind and Pakistan. It is very insidious and condescedning of Khushki Sahib to relate the totally separate situations in India and Pakistan. Mohajirs' involvement with UP & Bihar ended approximately 60 years ago - that means 2 to 3 generations in most societies.

Chachoo there is no harm in asking why people are illiterate, literacy is not a DNA code like i said its a reversible condition. The self imposed and state imposed barriers to education have to be explored in every part of the underdeveloped world.

Sometimes there are cultural aspects which frankly promote illiteracy (specially in women) ...its pointless to look the other way out of politeness. There is something stupid about those cultures which needs to change. UP/bihar is no exception...its not sacrosanct.

salimChauhan: As for zahid raising this question of the level of development of Bihar/UP relative to the rest of India - this is the precisely the result of theethnic politics that you and your kind are are happy to indulge in. When mqm-types ridicule the rest of Pakistan as illiterate villagers, it is you who expose yourself to the kinds of questions zahid raised.

#268 Zahid-e-Khushk {"Dear Salim,
I requested to have your help in understanding the different tracks the history of the people of U.P. and Bihar took after the Partition living in India and Pakistan. You even didn't come with a population listing of the cities of their origin mentioned by you earlier.

This scientfic question must be allowed, why the current Utter Perdeshis and Biharies are so underdeveloped in comparison with not only the offspring of their emigrated countrymen but also with people of other states like Tamil Nadoo Karnataka.

The other important question is about the lackluster performance of the people of the same heritage in smaller cities of Pakistan. Were they shackled by the what you call the 'sons of soil'? These two questions are constantly being avoided and the reason is quite obvious. "}

Janab Khushki Sahib,
I have tried to answer your questions objectively and scholastically. However, I am not your research assistant to gather demographic data for your convenience. Please look up the information - it's not that difficult. :)

In general the pre-partition population of UP (with which I am more familiar than Bihar), was anywhere from 10% - 15% in the eastern to 30% - 40% in the western parts of UP with certain areas such as Muradabad, Meerut, Delhi, and Bijnor enjoying slight majorities. The Muslims were mostly resident in urban areas and even the sizable zamindar tabqa kept semi-permanent residences in the cities. Partition sucked the life-blood out of most areas of UP, because the more educated, more enterprising, more aggressive, and those who were bureaucrats, police, and managers left for Pakistan. Those who were left behind suffered from land reform (at their expense), suspicion, demoralization, and denial of opportunities in police, military, government which were their traditional occupations. Also, don't forget that a huge number of Hindus in UP and Bihar happen to be untouchables - who had more contact with Muslim landlords than with their high-caste co-religionists. Of course, we all know the level of development and progress made by Dalits in India. These are among the reasons why UP and Bihar have fallen considerably behind the rest of India and even behind the level attained in Karachi by their migrant sons and daughters. Give it time, the way Pakistan is headed, thanks to the lack of foresight of the fratricidal and self-imploding wishes of the pisser-e-zameen, pretty soon people will be asking why UP and Bihar Muslims are so much more advanced than their cousins in Pakistan?

zahid says

It makes the point clear and that’s the Karachi connection: Karachi makes successful!
Since there’s no Karachi in U.P. and Bihar, these people are still backward. Since there is no Karachi in the rural Sind, Baluchistan and NWFP, these people are still backward


Yes karachi does allow people to become successful more than maybe any other place. But not by magic. You are hugely discounting because it suits your cause that the distinction of the muhajir community is over 95% literacy...do you think that has nothing to do with success??

''This scientfic question must be allowed, why the current Utter Perdeshis and Biharies are so underdeveloped in comparison with not only the offspring of their emigrated countrymen but also with people of other states like Tamil Nadoo Karnataka. ''

Simple, because the relatively rich and educated muslims of UP, Bihar and rest of India migrated to Pakistan.
For the record , the ticket from Bombay to Karachi Ferry from which lot of UP - and rest of Indian Muslims ( excluding East Punjab Migrants came ) was Rs.150 one way plus there was a charge of protection from the railway station to the port ( bus couple of days boarding / lodgeing ) of Rs.85 additional. This services were all done by Bhori Community of Bombay - and they were very helpful.How many of Indian Muslims could have afforded Rs.60 at that time is anyone's guess?

you asked,
''The other important question is about the lackluster performance of the people of the same heritage in smaller cities of Pakistan. Were they shackled by the what you call the 'sons of soil'? These two questions are constantly being avoided and the reason is quite obvious.''

My first posting right after graduation from the Police Acadamy was in Hyderabad . I could assure you that Mohajirs of Hyderabad are educated and doing as well as there brothers in Karachi - they are mostly traders and a huge majority of them are working in public sectors. Same is the case with our community in Nawabshah and Sukker.

#265 SalimChauhan: My point was not merely your coming up with the divisive term ("pisr-e-zameen"), but the distinction you this term implies. So just translating into english isnt what is needed. What is needed is for you to shake out of this lifelong training you have obviously received in distinguishing between people on the basis of ethnicity.

Karachi is a mix of ability and opportunity. The city itself has greatly benefited from the migration of very able (educated and industrious) people who in turn have benefited hugely from the city.

zahid is asking the stupidest question possible. Thats like saying because some white americans are trailor trash chances are Bill Gates must be stupid too but he was granted the opportunity to head microsoft....for no particular qualities of his own.

Dear IB, pleas read my post #182 to know what the offspring of the people coming from villages/small cities of other provinces could achieve benefiting from the great city of Karachi

IB #258 {"Salim Bhai,Clifton Baji,Che Janab,
I think it's pretty clear how important it is for the Muhajirs to unite under MQM with all the flaws and evil inside MQM because it's MQM which is our last resort from
the racist Sindis and ungreatful Punjabis.

Zahid,T-Ahmed and HP's attitude towards us Mohajirs is typical of people in North - that Karachi walas are
paan eating spiting people - dark coloured bhayas who should be greatful because it's we (the Sindis,Punjabis ) gave them land ! how dare they speak? ( what's astonishing is this is comming from the educated class and not from the average joe on the street) ."}

IB Sahib,
Piling books upon a khota does not make it an Einstein. :)
I agree with you about the point that we need to unite under a single platform, regardless of the apparent or perceived flaws. We should never have an intra-Mohajir fratricide ever again - that is exactly what the Government of Pakistan and the racist Pisser-e-Zameen detractors want.

The best thing to do is to avoid the current struggle in Pakistani politics and concentrate on improving our own social, economic, and security-related deficiencies. Nothing will be gained by siding with Bezamir Bhootni for or against Mushy or Nawaz. They are all opportunists and we need to keep them away from our beloved cities of Karachi and Hyderabad. If we can find fair-minded Pakistanis among the Pisser-e-Zameen, we should welcome them to our struggle.

If you have noticed there are people from Punjab such as AhmedMadani sahib who have their eyes and ears open against the constant flatulence emanating from Larkana and Lahore.

Dear Salim,
I requested to have your help in understanding the different tracks the history of the people of U.P. and Bihar took after the Partition living in India and Pakistan. You even didn't come with a population listing of the cities of their origin mentioned by you earlier.

This scientfic question must be allowed, why the current Utter Perdeshis and Biharies are so underdeveloped in comparison with not only the offspring of their emigrated countrymen but also with people of other states like Tamil Nadoo Karnataka.

The other important question is about the lackluster performance of the people of the same heritage in smaller cities of Pakistan. Were they shackled by the what you call the 'sons of soil'? These two questions are constantly being avoided and the reason is quite obvious.

Re: # 266
going by Khushki's arguements that Mohajirs exploited Karachi being the port city - a good number of Sindis,Phatans and Punjabis lived/ lives in Karachi why didn't they prosper? simple - they were / are not qualified enough!

#264 Tahmed Sahib {"SalimChauhan: zahid-e-khushk is being quite factual when he says that Bihar and UP are among the most backward, politically and economically, of the Indian states."}

Tahmed Sahib,
Yes, Bihar and UP may be the most backward of Indian states, but that is not Khushki's point. He first states that Muslims from UP & Bihar villages migrated to Karachi and then questions why the migrants prospered while their relatives left behind succumbed to ever greater backwardness and poverty? This he ascribes to the fortunate selection of Karachi, the port destination of the greedy Mohajirs and not their struggle, qualifications, hard work, and tenacity.

I doubt that even you are so dense as not to recognize the insidious nature of this claim.

#259 Tahmed Sahib {"salimchauhan: I never heard the term "pisser-e-zameen" until you started using it."}

Tahmed Sahib,
Perhaps you are more comfortable with the gora term "Sons of the Soil," that you use yourself. Once again, Masadi Sahib has characterized you well as that crisp catonment walla with the crisp Sandhurst accent. Did you by any chance know Christine Wheeler in a scriptural way?

SalimChauhan: zahid-e-khushk is being quite factual when he says that Bihar and UP are among the most backward, politically and economically, of the Indian states.

And your response to that is to attack him personally and write a lengthy piece of sarcasm!! Are facts that hard to deal with??