The Transformation of the Punjabi Man: Pashtunization or Militarization?

Original article of Khalid Ahmed for reference:

TRANSFORMATION OF PUNJABI MAN

Khaled Ahmed's A n a l y s i s

The Punjabis are a great race. They are talented, adaptable to change, gifted with a sense of humour, and
possessed of an undying zest for life. They are good company, secure against bouts of suspicion about
self-esteem and generous in admitting the superiority of others. But they also have 'flaws'. Taken together,
these flaws constitute a kind of personality disorder which makes government virtually impossible. The
Punjabi man will sacrifice rules to benefit his own clan, will be 'excessive' in conduct when in power and quick
to stampede when under siege. In short, he is incapable of good governance because he will not submit to
agreed rules when pushed by opportunism. One wonders how Pakistan can survive if over 60 percent of its
population is subversive of the state merely because of its innate collective character?
Stereotyping is not in good taste but the world has always labelled nations and races. All nations express a
kind of collective behaviour. Hitler called the British a nation of shopkeepers and was proved right when
prime minister Chamberlain signed the capitulating Munich Agreement with him in 1938 'because the British
economy was in a depression'. The Germans are accused of compiling encyclopaedias over issues which
require just common sense to resolve. The French are addicted to a kind of enfeebling aestheticism. The
Italians have a heroic self-image but are disorderly and incompetent in war. The Spanish and the Hispanics
are too 'oriental' to run their economy honestly. The nations living in the Balkans are intensely nationalist,
idealising their narrow hatred of one another. The Poles, the Irish and the Bengalis were once described by
Ambassador Jamsheed Marker as nations passionately embracing causes that are impossible of
achievement. Alexander Blok described the Russian character as a mixture of European and Asian traits,
subject to the pendulum swing of rationalism and fatalism.
The Iranians are inward-looking and proud. The Arabs were negatively described by Ibn Khaldun as too
Bedouin at heart to sustain civilisation. His narration of the political history of the Central Asian Muslims is
an attempt to describe chaos of character. The hard-working nations living in the Far East are supposed to
be culturally insulated. The Chinese have a Middle Kingdom personality and no other land matters more
than their Centre of the Earth. The Japanese are insular when they favour export (what goes out) and
resolutely oppose imports (what comes in). But everyone in the Far East is supposed to be so highly
'stylised' in courtesy that you can't break into their culture as a foreigner. As opposed to the 'reserved'
British personality, the American man is supposed to be open and frank.
The Pakistani stereotypes: In Pakistan, the stereotyping goes like this. Pakhtun are warlike but hampered in
organisation by their inability to accept leadership in their tribal system. The Sindhi is wedded to his land,
devoted to humanism, but limited by his lack of enterprise. The Baloch is completely submerged in the
heroic persona of his sardar, the opposite of Pakhtun individualism. The Punjabi is enterprising but
strangely given to passivity in the face of status quo. Pakistan's nationalities also have mythified images of
one another. The Pakhtuns think the Punjabis cowardly while the Sindhis look at them as a class of
merciless exploiters. The Baloch will contest Pakhtun hegemony in their province but join them in their
mistrust of the Punjabi. The Punjabis think the Sindhis lazy but submit to the leadership quality of the
Pakhtun.
The Punjabi man will adjust and change his identity under pressure from circumstances quicker than others.
This makes him a good entrepreneur, but he tends to be 'visceral' and 'excessive', which undermines his
project. In comparison to the Hindu entrepreneur, his weakness springs from this 'anarchy of character'.
His urge to succeed quickly distinguishes him from the more 'incremental' Hindu. His commerce is therefore
tinged with high profit-taking and low levels of trust. The Gujrati communities of Sindh who dominate
commerce in Pakistan rely on the Hindu work ethic. A seth in Karachi will be prompt in his payments and will
thus establish trust. The Punjabi will block payments, live in excessive luxury, but inspire minimal trust. The
publishers of Karachi and the chappal-makers of Quetta will not send their goods to Lahore because Lahore
never pays up. If you want to do business in Punjab you must set aside crores that will remain blocked in
delayed payments.
The Punjabi ethic: The culture of default in Pakistan can be said to be a Punjabi trait followed by elites of
other nationalities as a mode of 'revenge', although there is a historical Sindhi wadera trait of borrowing
from the Hindu money-lender of Sindh and then never paying up. The Punjabi is a steady character subject
to bouts of chaotic behaviour which he expresses usually with regard to food. In Punjab, the annual
birthday of Ms Bhutto declines into an assault on the large cake which the workers are supposed to share.
The press usually describes these gatherings with expressions like gutham-gutha and toot-parna. The
Punjabi mind thinks of orgy when exposed to food. In the PML meeting organised in 1989 by Nawaz Sharif
in an Islamabad hotel, to wrest the party leadership from Sindhi Muhammad Khan Junejo, declined into an
orgy of eating. His Punjabi followers fell on the food, ate from the donga, threw the bones on the floor, and
wiped their shorba-covered hands with the curtains. After they left the hotel shouting victory, the dining
hall looked like a wasteland.
The Punjabi in politics is an opportunist looking for a sharing of the spoils. In 1993, when speaker of the
Punjab Assembly, Mian Manzur Wattoo, staged an internal party coup against a deposed Nawaz Sharif, 70
percent of the PML members joined him. When Nawaz Sharif was restored by the Supreme Court within
days, the 70 percent immediately shifted their loyalty back to him. They had joined Wattoo complaining that
Nawaz Sharif and his chief ministers 'did not do their work'. When under Wattoo and Nakai, Punjab sank
further into chaos, the word applied to their rule was sikha-shahi, a reference to Punjab's history which has
moulded the Punjabi man.
History as moulder of Punjabi character: In the 18th century Punjab, most Punjabi regional potentates
undermined one another to stay in power and to avoid rise of any one Punjabi to supreme power. Delhi
ruled over a divided and conspiratorial Punjab. No one was sure of his friends and was ready to parley with
his enemies for political leverage. The Afghans in the west were seen as a make-weight to the rulers in
Delhi. A weak Delhi often caused loyalties to shift westward. The governor in Lahore feared his own satraps
more than he feared the Afghans. He flirted with the Afghans (Pakhtuns) and at times invited them to
attack Lahore to 'correct' the balance of power. In one instance, he called them in but ran away when the
invaders appeared. Historians note that Punjab was always a region of the marches which the invaders
occupied as a launching ground against Delhi. Pakhtun king Ahmad Shah Abdali 'used' Punjab again and
again for his invasions of India from 1774 to 1793. Marauding armies left their soldiers behind as warlords.
Punjab became an ethnic melting-pot of tribes that looked outward to their original homelands.
When the capital of Pakistan was in Karachi, the Punjabi leaders of the Muslim League in Lahore behaved like
the 18th century satraps of the Mughals. If Mamdot was Mir Mannu, who ruled Punjab from 1748 to 1753,
Daultana was Adina Beq (d.1758). The Punjab Assembly was reduced to a sulphurous marshland where the
partisans of the two League splinters took their mud-bath. Early history books described the famous scene
of bhangra performed by the Daultana men after overthrowing Mamdot, paving the way for ten years of
martial law under a Pakhtun, General Ayub Khan. The textbooks described Pakistan's early democracy as
the Lost Decade. Daultana, after successfully undermining the government of UP-oriented prime minister
Liaquat Ali Khan, and getting rid of a fellow-Punjabi, gave up politics, as if he had achieved the terminal
dream of Adina Beg. Mamdot was notorious for his lethargy while Daultana was a born spoiler and
Machiavelli incarnate. Mamdot was programmed to fail, Daultana feared success. The Punjabi man thereafter
sought refuge in the leadership of charismatic non-Punjabi leaders. He was in fact reverting to the historical
paradigm of 'welcoming invaders' to inoculate himself against the chaos of his own mind.
Punjabi as dominant community: By reason of their numerical strength, the Punjabis dominated the armed
forces. The land forces were always Punjabi, but with time even the navy became 90 percent Punjabi. As the
Pakhtun assertion in the armed forces declined after General Ayub, it was time for the Punjabi general,
Zia-ul-Haq, to reassert the Punjabi supremacy, after putting to death the charismatic Sindhi prime minister
Zulfikar Ali Bhutto in 1979. The majority province was placated by the non-Punjabi leader by putting on the
Punjabi war-paint against India. After that, it was easy to enlist Punjabi loyalties which followed a set
pattern of obsequiousness. A rebel Punjabi leader Malik Ghulam Nabi recorded in his book that once when
prime minister Bhutto was in Lahore a Punjabi PPP leader likened himself to Bhutto's faithful dog as a form
of greeting. The base of the PPP in Punjab partly springs from the fact that the Punjabi fears the tyranny of
the fellow-Punjabi. General Zia chose Nawaz Sharif as his satrap in Punjab, carefully nurturing him in Lahore
first as finance minister and then as chief minister, to set the stage for a Punjabi assertion in Islamabad.
General Zia in fact chose two satrapies from the among the families brutalised by Bhutto during his regime:
the Sharifs of Lahore and the Chaudhris of Gujrat. In the Pakistan Muslim League (PML) in Lahore Mian
Nawaz Sharif and Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain were the strongmen on the basis of their control of city
politics in Lahore and Gujrat. Mian Nawaz Sharif's base was the shopkeepers of Lahore with their strong
religious connections; Chaudhry Shujaat had emerged as the only man who could rein in the criminal gangs
of Gujrat. Both satrapies coexisted within the PML but not without tensions. This was a throw-back to the
days of Mir Mannu's 18th century Punjab and the rule of his wife, Mughlani Begum. The claim of the
Chaudhris over the leadership of Punjab remained alive though muted in deference to the Sharifs' broad
Punjabi alliance. Whenever a split in the PML appeared imminent - PML was now called PML(N) to indicate
Nawaz Sharif's predominance - it was always seen as a split between the two Lahore-Gujrat satrapies.
Punjabi's love of power: The Punjabi will obey a powerful leader. Nawaz Sharif was a powerful leader who
punished disloyalty. His non-intellectual 'viscerality' was his badge. In power, he consistently declined into
'anarchy of character' linking him with the 18th century adventurers like Shah Nawaz Khan, Yahya Khan,
Mughlani Begum and the later Sikh rulers. His largesse was also an excess at the expense of governance.
He benefited beyond reasonable measure those who supported him. He used violence against his
opponents which served as the binding force of his party. His gestures were royal, something that a
Punjabi satrap will appreciate. Nawaz Sharif's longing for a Mughal identity as a ruler could be a throw-back
to Punjab's old longing for the panoply of Delhi. Nawaz Sharif's eating habits were essentially Punjabi with a
tinge of Kashmiri languor in them. He had bouts of effete Punjabi moods when in the middle of great
national decisions, which are often described as lapses of an extremely short 'attention span'. His removal
from the scene is bad for Punjab because another leader with his quintessential Punjabi panache will not be
found. The Punjabi will really not accept a lesser Punjabi as his leader. He touched a collective chord with his
exercise of power and sudden paroxysms of disorganisation.
As a majority nationality in Pakistan, the Punjabis form 60 percent of the National Assembly. They can
amend the Constitution with this majority. The Punjabi opinion, the Punjabi ideology, becomes the opinion
and ideology of Pakistan. This also makes the Punjabi averse to intellectual inquiry. His lack of intellect is not
innate but has been forced on him by his compulsion to impose ideology. The non-Punjabi ruler will have to
submit to this ideology if he wants to stay in power in the parliament. The other communities hate them for
this. They don't always share the passions of Punjabis. The Sindhis and the Baloch tend to be
secular-mystical, but the Pakhtuns and the Punjabis are today joined in Pakistan's passion for a more strict
religion. In this Punjabi-Pakhtun religious confluence, the Punjabi is in the subordinate position, bringing
back the memory of Afghan-dominated 18th century Punjab. The Punjabi man is inwardly lacerated by many
things he does against his innate culture. He has abandoned his mother tongue in favour of Urdu, which
testifies to his protean quality, but which must leave a wound somewhere in his psyche.
The Pakhtun factor: The Afghan war changed the Punjabi character. It happened through the charisma of
the Pakhtun warrior and the spread of the spiritual side of the Pakhtun: the Deobandi faith. The charisma of
the Pakhtun was noted by the American anthropologist-writer Louis Dupree in his book on Afghanistan.
Afghanistan is inhabited in the north by non-Pakhtun nationalities. They may be opposed to the Pakhtuns
politically but all of them assert their masculinity through the Pakhtun dress and partly through his code of
honour. It was not surprising therefore that Pakistani army officers fell victim to reverse indoctrination while
handling the Afghan warrior. Gulbuddin Hekmatyar embodied this new mystique. The war also indoctrinated
the foreigners fighting in Afghanistan. The Arab mujahideen were Pakhtunised and most of them went back
to their countries no longer able to re-assimilate. Even the Russians were transformed, a large number of
whom came to be called Afgantsi, and were shunned by Russian society.
In Punjab, the Deobandi Pakhtun cleric gradually took over the mosques from Barelvi Punjabis. This was
also due to the fact that the Deobandi seminaries in Pakistani were the most competent teachers of the
Quran. But they were also more strict, coalescing historically with the old Ahle Hadith or Wahabi movement
in India. The recruitment for the Afghan jehad in Punjab exposed more and more Punjabi youth to the
charisma of the Pakhtun warrior. During the Afghan war, an extremely brave Pakhtun, Qazi Hussain Ahmad,
came to head the traditionally Punjabi-dominated Jamaat Islami of Lahore. The Punjabi army officer and the
Punjabi prime minister Nawaz Sharif allowed the Qazi-Hekmatyar combine to dominate Islamabad's Afghan
policy. After 1994, when the lack of actual strength of Hekmatyar among the Afghan jehadi factions was
revealed, and a more clearly Deobandi jehadi leadership came to the fore, the Punjab was already
transformed.
Punjabi as Islamic warrior: The Punjabi warrior fighting in Afghanistan and Kashmir is more Pakhtun in
appearance and character than Punjabi. His new leaders are still Pakhtuns like Mufti Shamzai and Maulana
Fazlur Rehman at the head of the most powerful jehadi outfit, Harkatul Mujahideen, but a Punjabi warrior is
now ready to challenge them in the person of Maulana Masood Azhar, the leader of Jaish-e-Muhammad,
sprung from an Indian jail this year. Another Punjabi leader of the Deobandi order, Maulana Azam Tariq of
Sipah-e-Sahaba has already been active in Punjab. But both owe their allegiance to the grand Deobandi
alliance under the khilafat of Mullah Umar of Kandahar, the final epiphany of the warrior-priest produced by
the Afghan jehad. So powerful is the 'reverse' charisma of the Pakhtunised Deobandi warrior of Punjab that
he is able to lead the Pakhtuns as well. The power of Maulana Azam Tariq of Jhang is asserted in Parachinar
in the Kurram Agency of the Pakhtun Tribal Areas. Along with Pakhtunisation has come the Pakhtun cult of
disagreement: to disagree is an assertion of individuality, and to agree is the submergence of individuality.
The warrior in Punjab is supreme but he is also given to internal splintering in the manner of the Afghan
Pakhtuns.
The Punjab has become more Pakhtunised than most Punjabis realise, and this is bound to have
far-reaching consequences for Punjabi society. As stated earlier, the Punjabi always had a deep-seated awe
of the Pakhtun as an upright and brave man. In pre-1947 India, the Pakhtun character inspired the
literature of the subcontinent, as reflected in the writings of Kipling and Tagore. Today, the Punjabi in
Pakistan is in the process of merging with this Pakhtun identity. He thinks this process religious in nature
but it is also a kind of Pakhtunisation of behaviour. In Lahore, the two-million strong annual Deobandi
congregation of Tablighi Jamaat brings hundreds of thousands of Pakhtuns together with the Punjabis. The
spartan puritanism of the highlander Pakhtun mixes well with the new understanding of the message of
Islam in Punjab. Even the non-jehadi Barelvi organisations are becoming warlike and strait-laced in
response, as for instance Dawat-e-Islami, which bans the human image in the Deobandi tradition and holds
its mammoth congregation annually in Multan. The intolerance of perceived heretical sects, and the Shias,
always a Pakhtun strong-point, is now wide-spread in traditionally tolerant Punjab.
Punjabi man in Punjabi folklore: The jehad has to some extent helped restore the sense of honour of the
common man in Punjab. But this restoration of self-respect has cut into two other areas: the writ of the
state and the status of women. A lower middle class Punjabi may join a jehadi faction and challenge the
administration with impunity from prosecution for breach of law. The jehadi faction may run its own system
of justice which in turn empowers its socially disadvantaged member. Honour was traditionally linked to
women. They formed the basis of most feuds and also became victims of avenged dishonour. But tolerance
for women was pronounced in Punjab. All the Punjabi folklore celebrated the Punjabi woman, her strong
personality and character. In Punjab's greatest classic Hir of Waris Shah, Hir, the heroine, dominates the
narrative while Ranjha, the hero, is shown as a passive type. Lahore's modern Punjabi poet Ustad Daman
used to complain that while Hir was described in great physical detail by Waris Shah, Ranjha did not get a
single good line. He in fact undertook to write his own Hir in which he undertook to celebrate the manhood
of Ranjha. The mystical folk poets of Punjab always took the female identity, often that of Hir, to express
their urge for divine union.
The 'active' male principle in Punjabi folk narrative is given to 'outsiders', which is perhaps a precursor of
the Pakhtunisation that has happened now in Punjab. In Sohni-Mahiwal, the passive male reaches his
apogee when Mahiwal allows Sohni to swim the Chenab river for a tryst on the other bank. He watched a
non-swimming Sohni every day risking death while negotiating Punjab's most tumultuous river. When she
finally dies by drowning, Mahiwal is perhaps unaware that her end was brought about by his passivity. A
powerful warrior Mirza in Mirza-Sahiban, abducts a willing Sahiban during her wedding. Chased by her
brothers, whom Mirza had challenged during the act of abduction, the two gain in the race, but Mirza,
over-ruling Sahiban's protests, decides to sleep under a tree. They are surrounded in the end, and Mirza is
killed in the fight. The way surviving Sahiban commits suicide by Mirza's dagger testifies to her superior
character.
Punjabi and rights of women: The popular rage against the freedom of women in Punjab is not a Punjabi
phenomenon but a result of the watering down of the Punjabi personality. Honour-killing was always there
but the panache it has acquired today is something new against the larger backdrop of Pakhutunised jehad.
What the Taliban do to women in Kabul now finds unprecedented resonance in Punjab. State institutions
manned by once-liberal Punjabis are responding to the new stimulus. The Punjabi judges of the Lahore High
Court hand down 'ground-breaking' judgements against rights of the woman traditionally allowed by the
Hanafi jurisprudence. The judges may think that they are responding to the new dictates of puritanical
Islam, but they may be simply acting as transformed Punjabis.
Given the changing collective personality of the majority population of Pakistan, it is going to be difficult for
the state of Pakistan to exercise all its options for survival in the year 2000. The Punjabi talent for
readjustment is today unaccompanied with any intellectual effort. The innate viscerality of his character will
expand the distance between indoctrinated opinion and realism. He is already living on two levels: that of
verbalisation (warlike defiance) and action (shrinking from sacrifice). Since he is in control of the state, his
weakness becomes the weakness of the state. His 'flexibility', known to history, will assert itself after he
has caused the state to collapse and has to 'adjust' to a post-collapse situation.

I have seen so much of hig wash on chowk, but never to this extend, of trying to analyse the pak psyche in terms of a so called punjabi mind influencing the emergence of jihad in pakistan.

At least nominally, befor partition, there was only one set of muslims in the then India. After the creation of pakistan, there are indian muslims and pak muslims. Any explanation of the pak situation has to account for hwy there is not even a single Indian in guntanamo, when the populations of muslims in india and pakistan are comparable. Then again there are muslims from all over the world, from the US to most of europe to australia have landed in guntanamo.

Hence, this pujabo mulsim change is simple nonsense, what has to be done is an analysis in relation what has changed in pakistan in relation to that in India.

No amount of Faued can help in denying the fact that TNT is essentially politicsation of the notion of kafir, and oprationalisation of the idea that muslims cannot live with people of other religions.

The people who moved to pakistan from India beleived in the TNT, and thsu there was a darwenian selection in terms of attitudes to other religions. That is the root cause of jihadisation of pakistan, and now the children of TNT are the suicide bombers.

It si pathetic to see so much of verbiage to hide the corrosive effects of TNT.

My g’pa caught a phatan during the invasions of phatan tribes on Jammu – he chained a Indian Army Officer who was a sikh – and was taking him to his house somewhere in NWFP . Phatan was sharpening a rainbow knife infront of the sikh soldier – and the poor sikh officer was scared to death. When asked what are you going to do with the officer – the phatan replied , ‘ Sir , I am taking him to my old father who could not join the jihad – so I will take the infidel to my father so he could kill him and be part of the jihad’ – my g’father asked the phatan to buzz off and send the sikh soldier back.

I remember what my g’father said about phatans – during the 1950’s when Phatans started coming to work as laborers (obviously) in Karachi and how they showed up at every marriage tents which was in-place for the wedding for a free meal – at first the people tolerated them but then they had a beating.

And then there’s a story of a phatans who camped at a hill side and used to shoot anyone who passed by – and once he shot someone on a donkey and walked up to him and found couple of loaf’s – and the phatans said ‘ what the ****, two of my bullets got wasted’.


Pashtoons are one of the most non-progressive nation in Pakistan. They are like Negro’s – you would find two types of phatans – either very educated or plain illiterates.


Punjabis are a different breed. There’s no doubt they are very hard working but they happens to be one of the most ethinically biased people I had ever witnessed. Apart from all there goods – I think Punjabis are in a process of progressiveness and going towards industrialization. Punjabis with due respect to them happens to be one of the hypocritical of the lot as well and think that Punjab is Pakistan and Pakistan is Punjab.

IB you are one funny guy. :)

Typical racist, chauvinist, commie crap. When will commies understand that along with their red paradise the paradigm of promoting ethinic chauvinism has also been burried for good. The new paradigm is Kufr vs Islam. Choose your side wisely.

The new paradigm is Kufr vs Islam. Choose your side wisely.
by the looks of things Urstruly Uncle - the real war is between :
a) Sunnis vs Shias
b) Bharalwis vs Deobandis/Wahabis
c) Punjabis vs Mohajirs
d) everyone ..

#5 urstruly: kufr vs islam is a new paradigm? look at the ethnic abuse written in #3 below and think again.

divisions on the basis of "religious" groupings or "ethnic groupings" are in fact older than the hills. They derive from the primitive part of the brain that is no different than that of chimpanzees, apes, kan khajooras and other creatures.

But dont let me confuse the residents of chowk zoo who take "religious" groupings and "ethnic" groupings so seriously...

According to your defination – I am a chimp ( since I am ethically biased ) . Okay – but you have to understand what makes someone ethinically biased? It is simple ( in Pakistani context ) – because of Punjabigardi and Pashtoon Forceful Religious Philosophy.
It’s official – I’m a chimp – a proud one.

Religious identification can fix the inherent chauvanism of ethnic identification. Yes. But if religious identification means having a saudi styled or taliban/pushtoon styled pakistan then we are better off bickering over ethnicity than being united under that banner than can only spell doom for at least a solid 50% of pakistanis (women).

IB spoken like a true mohajir.

# 9, it need not be a saudi style or taliban style world. If progressive people promote religious identitification then they can help craft a most modern state that's very good to women.

---------------

Khalid Ahmed and Daneiel Berk are definitely stuck on outdated issues. This question of the (then) looming afghanization of Pakistan was being discussed years ago. May be these two gentlemen were resting from their labors then, or chose not to raise a voice. Now the time is to realize that punjabi, mohajir, sindhi, pakhtoon - all these divisions are simply unIslamic.

cliftonbridge #9: To give you a medical analogy (since you are a doctor), what you are saying is akin to saying that a heart attack can cure diabetes. Hope you dont cure your patients this way. :-)

Kaalchakra #11 Good point. In fact, if we did not have the primitive mindsets I mention below that masquerade as religion, it would become clear that a political system that has as its foundation the basic right of individuals would be consistent with all religions.

chachoo i am pro religion and severly opposed to misogyny and whether it takes facism or surrealism or cubism to beat the misogynistic tendancies of so called religous leaders i am all for it.
As uncomfortable as it is to admit this there are huge ethnic differences to the way pakistani's treat women and in that sense i agree with the urgent need to move away from pushtoonization.
Short of that who cares about ethnicity? i am glad we have an interesting mix of songs and dances and clothes and poetry etc ...that part is all good .

cliffs, why not beat "religious leaders" (are there any "religious leaders" in your religion?) at their own game by creating/promoting your own brand of religion in Pakistan?

Cliffs, the point is that, that so long as your religion is about what you think or what you personally love or hate or wish it is of no consequence (unless you can hope that one day everyone will think like you).

Would you agree with that "harsh" view? :)

cliftonbridge #14 i am glad we have an interesting mix of songs and dances and clothes and poetry etc ...that part is all good .

Now you are talking!! :-) There are all types of people in every society - and stereotyping a group is simply wrong. Even in the case of the treatment of women, one cannot make any generalizations - you will find bullies (lowlife that preys on the weak while kowtowing to the strong, and misogynism is merely another form of bullying) in every society.

'the barelvi school does not have the same scholastic achievements as the deobandi school' -- what utter hogwash!
the works of imam ahmad rida khan alone are more qualitative and quantative than all the major akaabir of deoband combined.
just his fatawa ridawiyyah--one of the major works of hanafi jurisprudence in the past 200 years is, in its current edition, over 25 volumes which each large volume approx. 1000 pages each.
don't take my word for it: ask the ulama of both arab and non-arabs--even the deobandis themselves whose scholars acknowledge ala hazrat's mastery of, amongst other things, fiqh.

btw, most of this article is rumbling nonsense and here i agree with urstruly that it appears more and more likely that the clash of civilisations that fukuyama predicted is going to occur.

next stop: iran.
even the french have jumped onto the anti-iran, pro-israeli, US bandwagon.
expect an attack on iran within the next 6 months to a year.probably sooner.

Kaalchakra #15 I wish to provide a second opinion to your diagnoses: Right now we have bigger problems than religious extremists - we have a dictator who is determined to go to any lengths he think he can get away with to stay in power (killing peaceful demonstrators, changing the constitution, handing out pay increases to nazims, dashing off to the middle east to break BB from those opposing his wish to make a mockery of elections, ignoring the supreme court ruling and refusing entry to pakistan of nawaz sharif!!) .

The sitation has become so bad even losers like mullah fazloo look good compared to the mockery Pakistanis are being presented with - at least they are calling for free and fair elections!!

Once there is the rule of law in Pakistan, the maulvi problem will solve itself.

tahmedji, your diagnosis may be the correct one. As a general rule, it seems, where the majority fails, or is incapable, or is unwilling to give up its beloved muddled modes of thinking, extremists invariably have the last laugh (more accurately, their pound of flesh).

Hope both Pakistani majority and Musharraf keep that in view.

(just realized that sounds terribly pretentious, coming particularly from someone hardly qualified to comment on internal matters of Pakistan. Got pulled in because this pashtunization argument seemed so old!. So please overlook any misdiagnosis!)

Kaal, is there something wrong with making religion conform to you rather than you conform to it?

Not at all, chalthai, IF you can.

dearest chachoo please dont misunderstand me ...their is no surrogate for a persons value or morality. Ofcourse these things are not dictated by ethnicity or race or nationality or whatever.
But we would be blind to not notice that there is a pakistani ethnic group with a female literacy of above 85% and another pakistani group with a female literacy of less than 0.85%. Whether this GLARING difference is the result of the lower value of women in that culture or a cause ....i dont know. But we can not deny that there is a strong CULTURAL component to it. (I hope we all agree that there is NO religious justification for it).
I dont believe in demonizing any group of people but its not fair to women to pretend that all cultures in pakistan are equally fair to women (actually none are completely fair)..its not fair to women to not recognise that there is one culture that is specially harsh to women (0.75% literacy for Gods sake how can anyone possibly spin that favorably).
Pushtoons are great people in a million diff way but their treatment of women should not be whitewashed. That doesnt help anyone, least of all the pushtoons themselves.

kaal ...yes conformity is important to religion, but only the CORRECT conformity. There is no point conforming to the wrong ideal. Wrong ideals must be fought against. This is why "pushtoonization" in many ways is working AGAINST muslims and islam.

(women are considered both humans and muslims by the vast majority of pakistani's)

Good, so there is still hope for punjabi pakistanis to de-jihadify islam..

Cliffs, on one point you and I seem to agree. There is no "my this" or "my that." Woh sub dil khush karne ki batein hain.

There IS a "correct" vision that requires conformity. And after people are done doing their best, that is the only one that wins, repeatedly, and will in future everywhere it is brought into play.

It's like gods make weather, weatherman makes excuses.
:)


----------------

Chaltahai, I don't know enough about specific conditions. But sure, if people want to, have the wherewithal, and implement their plan. Human existence is the name of possibilities. But speaking for other people is hazardous.

I take the easy way out, preferring to confine myself to possibilities and probablities. If you are looking for hope, yes, there is hope! :)

Clifton, what do you think are the chances improvements in women's conditions in Pakistan? How would the fall of "secular" military General impact the future governance of Pakistan? Do you think political party with conservative mindset to take roots in Pakistani polity or would liberals have any chance to revive?

Cobes its not so much about central politics ...more about local governance but most of all about society. Everywhere but NWFP and to a lesser extent baluchistan things have changed in a very credible way for women in pakistan...at least in terms of education which is the first step. Also pakistan has done a reasonable job with women representation in provinical and national assemblies too. At least in karachi the percentage of women enrolled in medical colleges was higher than men in most years.
The natural path for most of pakistan is to move forward on the womens issue...so i have hope in general.
I dont know what to say about our north west areas ...clearly basic things like education womens rights habeus corpeus etc have been hijacked by the "war on terror" ..thanks to the local anti govt nutjobs and the govt nut jobs alike. I think the overall trend has still been to improve ...albeit slower than the rest of the country. I think its highly unlikely that ANYTHING will actually turn the clock back on essential rights for women like healthcare education etc (which havent been advanced much even by secular governance and wont get attacked much by fundos either).
Ofcourse the north west has never been anywhere close to accepting the poltical/economic liberation of women and the increasing friction between seculars and nonseculars will make this even more non negotiable.

That was a little too long. Anyway ...womens rights overall not great at this point but the future certainly looking very very good for urban sind and urban punjab. Rural sind and rural punjab will likely get much better within our lifetime. Baluchistan and NWFP ...i dont know... probably will take a few generations to be acceptable even by pakistani standards.

Kaal, are you sure God makes weather? What if I went to antarctica and melted a chunk of the iceshelf..the impact on hurricanes alone would be tremendous. Will you worship me?

How about we save you all the trouble, and do the honors right away?

Aum Shantih. Chaltaaya namah. Aum Shantih.

:)

ah the reductionist approach..ok..I won't question THE KAAL. :-)

I will do one better..say..."there is no god but chaltahai..and all this prophet bullshit is just that" varna I too can be cruel and shoot a laser beam into antarctica to melt the ice. phir pata chalayga bachchoo!! :-p

chalta, you will need a few pseudo miracles to make that stick. Like the History channel was showing how a couple of hundred Spartan successfully fought against thousands upon thousands of Persians.

You have to boldly make the argument that that was because you had god's personal attention.

Chalta, the turth is whatever people believe in, AND are willing to fight for. IF victory, THEN truth.

Otherwise, it is all dil ki bateein, like my God and your God and my old aunt's God, and what they want, don't want, preach, don't preach. Who cares? :)

Kaal, how about my weather miracle. Circular logic of writing it down that I am going to do it and then using that as the very proof of my divinity and then finding some arabs to follow it. (the latter piece is very easy because arabs are pretty dumb). that should be enough..no? Heck I have alrady performed a miracle of controlling the weather.

Actually, the truth is not what people believe in. Opinions are what what people believe in. Truth stands upon its own legs independent of people. So when I melt the antarctic ice shelf, it is a universally accepted phenomenon or a truism. the rest is just kneeling and bobbing stuff.

Clifton, you are assuming other factors to remain constant during that time, which hardly seems to be the case. The religious fundamentalism is on the rise in those provinces. At some point in time it is bound to clash with modernists in southern cities. The questions is how big an impact would that be and what group would have upper hand in that situation.

"IF victory, THEN truth"

So true. Winner's write history and by extention, truth.

cobes despite irans revolution they have pretty good stats for women when it comes to earning and political representation education and even reproductive rights.

The islamic revolution in punjab and sindh would likely be benign in many ways towards women. I am pretty convinced of that. We did live under zia ulhaq you know and actually those were the days when female enrolment in med schools surpassed men in karachi.

Pashtoons treat women as if they are slaves / toys – they keep them veiled, backward; the reasoning given is that – women can not be trusted. It’s a known fact that Afridi Tribes in Swat and in NWFP sell there women for as much as Rs.300000-500000.
The dangerous thing – which I fear is that these Phatans try to force there rotten culture of repression and backwardness to Urban Areas specially Karachi and Hyderabad.
The latest news is that the Jamat-e-Islami’s tried to adjust / register 40000 Phatans Votes to Gulshan Town, Karachi – from Sorab Goth – obviously this attempt was foiled. I myself during at least in operations against encroachments at Al-Asif Square, Sorab Goth witnessed how many Pashtoons are systematically brought to Karachi and encouraged to register in different parts of Karachi to vote illegally.
Any how check the website out
http://www.hrcp-web.org/images/publication/annual_report/pdf_2005/5-1.pdf

Pun jabis are best at ridiculing their own women – they force their women to walk naked.
Gang Raping their own women happens to be there past time.

There was a FIR lodged @ Gulshan-e-Iqbal Police Station - by a woman against her husband who locks her up every time he leaves for work.
Action was taken - and the man found was obviously a Phatan - even more a PHd in Botney Department, Karachi University - after couple of police style 'jhatkas' I was told that he is a reformed man.

IB i am glad you are enraged at the way women are treated in pakistan ...so am i ...but yaar there are many decent pathans too...its one thing to make legit criticism of a culture but its not the same thing to demonize every person for being born into one DNA cluster rather than another.

Re: # 39 chachi cliftonbridge (:P)
Aunty give me the name of one decent phatan? (lol) either they are decent or animals - no moderates.
These folks are barbarians looters rapists and child molesters and now sucide bombers.


Revolutionary Women of Afghanistan (RAWA)which reports abuse against women in Afghanistan / Pakistan. www.rawa.org

"either they are decent or animals"...yeah chotai, thats my point there are many non animal decent ones. I went to school with a whole bunch, i am sure you did too :)

you are abosultely right in highlighting the animals amongst them (and every other ethnic group) ...and even criticizing parts of the pushto culture that are misogynist. I hope you understand that i just objected to a broad tainting with the vitriolic tar brush, which i am sure you realise is unfair.

i have to tell you that i have seen a fair share of afghani and pathan patients and i never once had an unpleasant interaction with any of them even though i was probably the first literate woman many of them had seen. I wish that all pakistanis had been as respectful as them towards women doctors. I also wish i had kept a list, i would have happily given you a page full of names :)

cb: they say that when you point a finger at someone, you are pointing four fingers at yourself. similarly, when someone points a finger at another ethnic group, he/she is pointing four at the culture you yourself were raised in. After all, a sure sign of jehaliyat is to stereotype other communities of people.

cliftonbridge: In #42 the "you" is not you, but IB, btw.

Okay. Both articles are interesting. Khalid Ahmed clearly has a better understanding of the Punjabi man then this new guy Daniel Berk. Never heard of him before and it will be fun to watch this ahole come out of the closet to defend his thesis.

Instead of two long articles, Punjabi behaviors at least in politics can be summed up as primarily Bhair Chaal(herd behavior). Punjabis have temporary loyalties which can be good or bad. (I am talking politics). I don’t know many Indian Punjabis but the stock I see here shows me the level is pretty low on the Indian side too. Two formidable members of the Indian contingent on this site are dwarfs.

Anyways, I don’t have to go very far to prove that Bhair Chaal provides the intellectual impetus to the Punjabis to maintain lofty heights in Pakistani politics.

Before partition poor Jinnah spent years working with the Punjabi leaders to join the ML, the Punjabi feudal never moved but just before the partition, one fine morning Muslim Punjabi woke up to find that they supported Jinnah and Pakistan. Sikh decided to follow Master Tara Singh and Hindu could not figure out what to do( many just died).

Jinnah became the leader of Punjab and all Punjabi leadership ended up in the Muslim League and the Unionists who were the leaders for the last 20 years had no one to support them and they too ended up in Muslim League, The herd behavior at its peak.

Interesting part is that after the Independence, Punjabi forgot about ML and Jinnah and went straight to helping Gormani, Daultana and the Mamdot come to power. And now no one knows where their heirs are. Bhutto called Daultana a Chooha and then made him High Commissioner in London. Where he acquired English accent and dropped the punjabipan. Tehmina toils in ML now, Her brother has disappeared.

Gormani and Moamdots? Where are they? The interesting story was that of Sikandar Hayat Khan Family. After he died, half of his family turn leftist and his son Shoukat Hayat become a minor respected politician. Sikandar Hayat’s grandson Tariq Ali now edits a web Magazine and writes often silly analysis.

Fast forward 20 years. ZAB appeared on the scene and he was the leader of Punjab. Punjabi politics took a new turn now a Sindhi was their leader. Half the Punjabis could not figure out whether he was Bhutto or Bhutta or even more ridiculous Bhattoo as in Wattoo or lattoo. Well Bhutto was his Anglicized name. In Sindhi, he is still Bhutta!

The minute he got in to power, Punjabi forgot about him. He was murdered by the army and Punjabis kay kaan say joon bhi na rayngi.

Fast forward another 20 years Mian Sahib showed up on the scene and now he is the darling of the Punjabis. Main Sahib does need any introduction. Just read what Khalid Ahmed said about him.

Now, a word about the author. Now who in his right mind would bring out Hobbs, Kant, and John Calvin to discuss Punjabi and Pathan political leanings? I mean poor Punajabi have no idea who these guys were and why their ideas impact Punjabi politics. Only an ahole would be so ridiculously perceptive to bring out Hobbs, Kant and John Calvin in one article about the Punjabis. hehehe...

Re: # 1

"The Punjab has become more Pakhtunised than most Punjabis realise, and this is bound to have
far-reaching consequences for Punjabi society."

May I ask Khalid: What is this 'the' Punjab. Is Punjab, like 'the Pakiland', not a proper noun or as the British took it only a 'Land of the five rivers'. What a Punjabi slave mindset it exhibits!

The height of this slavish and opportunistic, mindset has amply been demonstrated by Gujrati Mafia in surrendering a seat of a Punjabi (Attocky, to be exact) daughter of their's for providing a seat to a nincompoop (Chabal, shohda, in Attocky Punjabi) non-Punjabi (To some even a non-Paky), and that too to replace a duly elected Punjabi PM.

Clifton Baji, My feeling is that the trend of education amongst urdu speaking is related to thier urbanization than thier accent. If urdu was the magic trick than Indian Muslim women would be soring in numbers, quite the contrary.

The subjugation of women has nothing to do with islam and everything to do with there twisted unerstaning of Islam which is cultural and has no basis in Quran or Hadith. And befor the veggies get to teary eyed about the situation of Pashtoon women, they might want to focus there energies on abortion clinics an shamshan ghaats where women are killed for the mere reason for being women.

Yeahh inn bhindiyoon koo apnayy gharr meinn aaagg laggi nazarr nahii aatii..abbayy bhaii hamaryy yahann joo bhii khawateen kayy saath ziyadtii horahii hayyy....uss mein bohat baRA haath uss saqafti asar ka hayy joo hamnayy 500 saal hindoon kayy saath rehnay say qubool kiya. Hamari aurat too 1500 saal pehlay jayidad ki haqdaar thi, vote daynay ki haqdaarr thii, or leadership ki dawaydarr thii...yeahh hindoo rasmo-riwaj hein joo darasal aurat ko iss qadarr ghatya or adna shay samjhtayy hein kayy uskay wujood ka haq hii uskay mard sayy wabasta kardaytay hein. Jab mard nahii raha too uskoo bhii jala karr khatam karoo...baRRii baRRI batein karnayy sayy pehlayy giraybaan mein jhaankk laynayy mein koii muzaiqa nahii hotta hazrat.

re: HP # 44

HP, that was the best interact, which I have read in a long time and your sense of the absurd must be appreciated, and was!.

Ciao

Re: # 43

T-Ahmed Bhai,
I support MQM becuase with all the violence ( which I don't agree with ) because
atleast we have something for representation - it's to counter ( like it or not )
the Sindis,Punjabis,Pashtoon and ofcourse, Jamat-e-Islami. Good or Bad, every Urdu
Speaker ( if hes not a Jamat Man/Woman) right from the Pres.Mushraff to a average Joe
on the street - thinks that with all the drawbacks MQM should stay as a counter force.

There is institutional racism/ ethinic biased in Pakistan against Urdu Speaking
Community - we call it Punjabigardi where atleast 4 Urdu Speaking Officers in
Grade 21 were not given grade 22 by the establishment division while the same
estb. division given 11 officers grade 21 ; 5 junior officers grade 22.
During the time of Jamali, Jamali wanted a Urdu Speaking Officer ( most senior )
to be made the IB Chief - but apparently Punjabi Lobbey opposed it - and a
Punjabi Major was made IB Chief out of no-where.
I happen view the percentage of Non-Resident Karachites in Police - all of them
are Punjabis - it's only during MQM government that atleast the SHO's / TPO's will
be Urdu Speakers which has made a huge contribution in cutting down crime.

Re: # 45
non-Punjabi (To some even a non-Paky), and that too to replace a duly elected Punjabi PM.

Shaukat Aziz is actually from Punjab - his wife although a Urdu Speaking Woman from Bihar.

One poster says that Punjabis did not know whether ZAB was Bhutto or Bhutta.
A Malaysian friend told me once that the word bhutto in Malay language meant a male reproductive organ, and it was always a problem for everyone in the media and the govt to pronounce ZAB's name. They decided to call him Alibatto to spare everybody embarrassment.
If bibi becomes the PM, one does not know how the Maysians will tackle it, for there is no Ali in her name.

#44 Posted by HP

Interesting comments HP. However:

The minute he got in to power, Punjabi forgot about him. He was murdered by the army and Punjabis kay kaan say joon bhi na rayngi.

If that had been the case, his daughter wouldn't have chosen to land in Lahore on return from exile in 1988, instead of her native province, and got a historic reception!

On a side question, is it correct that MQM is now prepared to welcome with open arms the same BB and the same Naseerullah Babar whom they accuse of murdering dunno how many MQM members in 'operations'? No May 12 for them on 18 October?

IB #48 There are no doubt legitimate issues of the kind you describe. However, that does not mean that one should demonize or berate another community of people the way you were doing.

On the issues you mention, I agree with some and disagree with others. But when an organization resorts to violence the way mqm has done time and again, then it is a criminal organization and no longer a political party. Nor is mqm doing mohajirs any favors by creating divisions on the basis of ethnicity.

You have expressed concerns about mohajirs being overwhelmed by the panjabis. To a large extent I think your fears are unjustified, and I say this based on the following reasons:

1. As a minority community, mohajirs have the advantage of not being seen as a threat (perhaps an irritant, but not a threat) by the rest of Pakistan. As such, there are no strong feelings against them. Thus, even at times of the worst mqm violence in karachi in the past, there was never any reverse violence against mohajirs in the panjab or any other part of Pakistan. Indeed, I know mohajirs who themselves moved out of Karachi and came to live in Rawalpindi/Islamabad to escape the Karachi violence.

2. If panjabis were as ethnically conscious as so many mohajirs seem to be, why would they allow a mohajir - musharraf - to rise through the ranks to become not just a colonel or brigadier or general, but to actually support his takeover of the government!

3. The quota system that results in the kind of low induction into government service of mohajirs affects panjabis as adversely as it does mohajirs. (I say this from personal experience). If I had my way, I would call for its removal since it is a self-defeating system. So, I agree with you here, but again - this is a political issue and not a reason to berate some ethnic group or the other. Furthermore, government jobs are becoming less and less important relative to the private sector as the economy progresses, so I assume this will become less and less of a problem in future.

4. The panjab is not a monolithic group as you seem to think. "Panjabi" simply means someone living in the land of the five rivers. So, you too can be a panjabi - all you have to do is learn the bhangra. (just joking here). Traditionally panjabis identified themselves with their tribe, and in urban areas all these barriers break down - there are intermarriages across tribal lines in cities, and I have seen couples from across all ethnic lines among the urban people in Pakistan. So, the future is not as threatening as you may think, given the assimilation among the well off urban population.

So, look to the future of Pakistan, and a violence-prone, dictator-loving, divisive group like mqm has no place in it. The issue facing Pakistan today is the restoration of democracy - and mqm has betrayed the rest of Pakistan with its support for dictatorship based on its narrow-minded ethnic view of things. During these critical times, mohajirs should stand by the rest of Pakistan in their just struggle for the restoration of the rule of law, not with this group of losers.

#52 Posted by tahmed32,

I think there's a reason for BB deciding to land in Karachi instead of Lahore. It is MQM. It is only in Sind that BB can hope to form even a coalition government this time around. So the two of a kind are in bed.

LOL

its all about hegemony and control.
This fear is pumped up,although its a historical fact, that at one time, upto 70% GovtJobs were taken by the Imported Beaururacy from the minority provinces...although they hardly had a 3% population in the then undivided Pakistan.

..time changes so does, everything, the sheer volume of Punjabi population, or for that matter any other ethniities
population , has bound to have its effects.

the traditional occupation of Mohajir Man , is the Govt Service, the changed enviroment, with other ethnicities also getting the required Governance skills, is cutting deep into Mohajir Man's psyche, hence the sense of victimization and prosecution., and every One to hims appears as his enemy, conspiring against him.
what he fails to realize , its a historicall process, and can only be delayed not stopped.

#54
"the traditional occupation of Mohajir Man , is the Govt Service"

Looking at the distribution among my cousins, there are a number of doctors, MBA's, school teachers, CA's, travel agents, engineers and computer/IT professionals.

Not a single govt servant among 50 or so odd lot.

But, then, such reasoning is not your fault ...

Zee this isnt the first BB MQM colition and its not too surprising at all....remember we talked about may 12 th and how the PPP didnt raise a stink about their dead workers??
It would be nice for karachi and sindudesh to have a symbiotic relationship...however both BB and MQM are oppurtunists first and anything else second. Certainly they have limited interest in each others vote base. So this truce will likely last as long as the first and expect firweorks when the honeymoon is over.

Abu, I can make a counter claim that it is better that how Arabs treat their women. There's no equivalent of honor killing in India. Moreover Afghani, by their own admission are not Indians, they are Jew or something so you can't blame it all on bad Hindu blood.

Here are the bad treatments mated out in India
Satti - burning woman alive on her husbands pyre. (predominantly local to Rajasthan area)
Vidhwa - shunning widows from worldly pleasures after husband’s death (this is across the country, AFIK).
Female Feticide - killing of female embryos. This is new one. (predominantly local to Punjab area)
Dowry killing - Torturing and/or killing women on dowry related issues. This is also relatively new. In some old cultures groom gave dowry to brides parents for their daughter's hand. (this is across the country)

Here are some of the reforms that I know,
Pre Independence
Encouragement to women education
Encouragement to women self sufficiency and women rights
Ban on Satti - this was done by British. It's a crime now. You can probably count the number of sati cases in last few decades on your fingers.
Post Independence
Increase the marriageable age of women
Make dowry illegal. Increase awareness about ills of dowry (This is done bu social reformers more than Govt.)
Better treatment to widows. There's marked improvement over treatment to vidhwa over the years; even in small villages. I should know that for I grew up in small villages.
female feticide is still an issue and needs to be worked on vigorously.

Here are the bad treatments mated out in Arab lands
Second class citizens - Cover themselves head to toe. Her evidence is considered half as important as that of man. Women can't study, can't work, can't see a male doctor without presence of male relative, can't drive. If woman is raped she needs four momins to give evidence for her. Socio-religious sanction to the practice of beating women to keep them in check.
Honor killing - women are killed of conceived crimes of adultery. No judge no jury just a bunch of her relatives can just shoot her. No questions asked.

And your following statement implies your non native background,

"uss mein bohat baRA haath uss saqafti asar ka hayy joo hamnayy 500 saal hindoon kayy saath rehnay say qubool kiya. Hamari aurat too 1500 saal pehlay jayidad ki haqdaar thi, vote daynay ki haqdaarr thii, or leadership ki dawaydarr thii..."

Is that true?

abu is right about the spirit of islam which did revolutionize inheritence and divorce and political/economic leadership of women.
However abu bhai you can not blame hindus for the actions of muslims who use religion and culture as a tool to oppress women.
Hinduism does not have to be misogynist any more than islam, again its the interpretation of misogynists that make it so.

#55

Then shy the hue and cry for Grade 17 Govt Job...??

see post 48...!!


But Like I said, times are changing, and some transitions are induced by historical forces...!!

Absolutely pretentious nonsense that hides the reality of Islam by absolving the cult of hatred towards kafirs and idolators like me and couching it in terms of some ethnicity.

I am in Indian Punjab and I do not see any of the nonsense analyses applying here.

The truth is that it all comes from Islamic hatred towards idolators like me.

The real agenda of Islam is in the elimination of idolators like me and decimation of the idolator's civilization and replacement with that mafia cult code called Shariah.

Pakistan follows this to the core and some so called intellectually sounding 'enlightened moderate' analysts try to put on a veil of obfuscation to confuse rest of the world.

#60

Why the hue and cry for govt jobs?

Because they are entitled to their share of it like any other Pakistanis.

Plus, they can even type, which is more than what you can do.

We also want a fair share of opportunities in every sphere for all Pakistanis, not just for Punjabis.

Why do the Sindhis and Balochis not have enought representation in the armed forces of Pakistan? Does the race of 93000, who raised their hands and surrendered, fight better than the other Pakistanis?

entitled to their share....Right...??

and how much is that...??

3% , 7.5% or 70%.

or are you still nitpicking on typos....!!

Having gone through the variety of opinions, I must agree with cliftonbridge. She has correctly placed the emphasis on the ONE issue that plagues Pakistan's progress. The treatment meted out to our women is shameful, regressive, insidious, harmful, self-defeating, and most importantly WRONG.
One reason why Mohajirs seem to be relatively more advanced than the natives is that our women are slightly better educated and slightly better treated than their Balochi, Punjabi, Pathan, Sindhi, and Kashmiri counterparts.
All the stereotyping about the behavior of men in the six regions of Pakistan (Balochistan, NWFP, Kashmir, Punjab, Sindh, and Karachi) leads to one common trait - the worse the treatment of their women, the lower the standard and quality of life for both men and women. Good job, Cliftonbridge.

#63

You read that right. I only asked for their fair share, as I did for the fair share for all other Pakistanis.

Can you tell me how much of Pakistan's heavy engineering industry is located outside Punjab? Is it 33%?

Why are more institutions of higher learning not getting set up in NWFP, Balochistan and rural areas of Sindh?

How many motorways are built between the urban enters in Interior Sindh? Balochistan? NWFP?

paRha likha Punjab ..
sehatmand Punjab ...

Is Punjab all there is to Pakistan?

This is a question which Now can fairly be asked By the near ALL MOHAJIR Power Setup in Pakistan...??

and they have been in power for the last 8 or so years...
the MIN MIN PUNJABI CHAUDHERY not withstanding...!!

yes actually you are absolutely right about that salim...stereotyping doesnt help matters. Imagine if all the sensible people in paksitan could come together and join a movement that genuinely would be progressive and come good on the broken promises of PPP MQM PML and ANP

#66

The mohajir who consorts with Altaf bhai and speaks urdu with Punjabi accent?

And his throat has been running dry campaigning for the Kalabagh dam ...

Mohajirs like him and Pir sahib is all that Pakistan really needs.

Is anyone going to answer my questions about the technological and infrastructure development in the smaller provinces? In case you want to harp about Musharraf again, even he has done more in other parts of Pakistan than all the Punjabis combined in the last 60 years. Gwadar port, Coastal highway, Bhasha dam (project started) are just three examples.

Tell me what Ayub Khan, ZAB, Zia-ul-Haq, BB, NS build outside Punjab in their years in power?

Re: # 67 Clifton

"a movement that genuinely would be progressive and come good on the broken promises of PPP MQM PML and ANP"

Unfortunately Pakistani nation has run out of the chances they were given to do that. If this dictator stays in whatever shape or form, there is nothing that can save Pakistan from turning into Iraq. Just like in Iraq all political leadership has been thoroughly discredited. There is an extreme political vacuum. As a matter of fact the war of independence that should have happened during the first couple of years after 1947 to get society rid of peons of britian, is only starting now. Sixty years is too late; therefore price is going to be high too.

Dear viqarm:

You say:

"I only asked for their fair share, as I did for the fair share for all other Pakistanis."

No share should be asked for, for I see none given through history. Shares should be taken. Women were not given more rights they simply took them (except for the pseudo rights gained by the Bengalee bhadramohila). Indian Muslims were not given their rights they have taken what they have. This is inspite of the stupid appeasement issue. Nobody would appease without anything in return. Mayawati did not ask to be made the CM she got herself elected. Heck let us not go that far ... nobody gave rights to clifton, neembu, scout and sadna. Try shutting them up if you can.

Well I must scratch My Head..
Why did they call call the Ayub's ERA as ERA of Progress , when Pakistan was making from a Needle to a Ship.
" Sui say leyker Jehaz tek bana reha thaa.."...also Mahboob-ul-Haq brainchild the 2nd economic Plan of Pakistan was a role model, which many a developing countries like Korea followed.
and why is it said, the it was during ZAB's ERA Pakistan started its Nueclear Program, ...and the Steel Mill , Pipri, Port Qasim....etc...
Also during the Corrupt to the core tenures of NS and BB, Gawadar project really was started in their ERA.

...so I think , I should de-satatize myself from all that Hog wash, and accept the reality, that all the progress Pakistan did was during the Musharraff and Musharraff's era Only....

..By the way, its my firm believe.
Dictators no matter how benevolent are poision to a civil society..
the First Dictator , inspite of all the Decades of Progress
and before 56-57 giving fair dure representation to Bengalis
[ 5 out of 8 PM before 56-57 were bengalis ] , could not arrest the alienation process , and result, we all know , the break up of Pakistan.

The Second dictator , is the one who introduced the jignostic jihadi frenzy , and divided the Pakistani nation in every conceiveable division.
whether they were religious, politicial, provicial, legal ...and worst of all ethnic..... the prime fruit of which is rippening Now.

This Third Dictator, has firmly put Pakistan on the Path of disintegratiion. ...he has struck the very root of confidence .
....people all over has lost confidence in the Rule of Law , or let me put it this way, they do not trust the viability of effectiveness of the Law of Govt of Pakistan any more..

the resent Talibanization process, is because, that belt, does not trust the law of Pakistan, so they have choosed the twisted , undeveloped version of Islamic Law as an alternative.
the same is the Case of Balochistan, Baloch sardars have gone into the international court of Law, ....period.
Bugti , one of them, was Killed to satiate the EGO of One general , Bugti, no matter how horrific and dispecable, was the man, instrumental in the judgement of Baloch Sardar's Jirga , when they decided to join Pakistan.
Bugti the man was intrumental in getting Gawadar for Pakistan from the Sultanate of Muscat and Omman....this Man was hunted down and killed for the personal EGO of this Dictator General .
now comming to Karachi situation, its already outside Pakistan's Law, its being run by someone from London. ....and no matter whatever the jignostic , rehotorics one can spare, no one , I repeat no One, even the CJ of the country is allowed to enter Karachi , before the prior approval of this Man from London.
other wise they will hunt down , all of them like sitting Ducks , like they did on 12th May, after which this ' My MQM GENERAL " claimed his victory and show of strength.

...the bottom line, let me repeat....this Dictator has firmly put pakistan of the path of disintegration.
and let it be , on record......Who is responsible NOW...
8 years of un-interrupted unchallenged Rule.....are there for all to see...!!..


Period.

#70 GT,

I am not sure that I follow you. Why should I want to shut anyone up?

Secondly, are you suggesting that the only way to secure one's rights is to take what one can get by force? Then what is wrong with MQM's approach? Why does everyone keep bitching about it?

{"Tell me what Ayub Khan, ZAB, Zia-ul-Haq, BB, NS build outside Punjab in their years in power? "}

Viqarm Sahib,
Very good question and I can easily answer for your enlightenment.

Ayub Khan - built Ayubia and the golf course near Nathiagali in NWFP

ZAB - was going to build the casino in Clifton but his project was derailed due to the necktie party Zia threw for him.

Zina Owl Hack - built all those damned Madrassas - mostly in the NWFP.

BB - Bezamir Bhootni built the summer palace in Surrey and decorated it with antiquities salvaged from Mohenjodarro, Taxila, and Tariq Road.

NS - Besharif almost built another runway at Quaid-e-Azam International Airport when the CoS's jet almost ran out of fuel and may have had to make a crash landing on ground adjacent to the blocked runway.

viqarm:

"Why should I want to shut anyone up?"

- just kidding my friend.


"Secondly, are you suggesting that the only way to secure one's rights is to take what one can get by force?"

- no it is not the only way ... it also depends on what you mean by force.

"Then what is wrong with MQM's approach?"

- There is nothing wrong or right per se about power struggle. It depends on which side you are on.

Why does everyone keep bitching about it?

- See the reply above.

Re: # 59

Salim & Cliftonbridge:

Don't you think misogynist is a treatable disease?

#75 Anil {"Salim & Cliftonbridge:
Don't you think misogynist is a treatable disease?"}

Anil Bhai,
Of course. Like almost all diseases misogyny can be cured. I think that a combination of proper doses of education, experience, eye drops, new glasses, and role reversal can easily cure a die-hard misogynist of such an ailment.

Re: # 76

Universal education for girls is crucial, only then they can invent eye drops and new glasses. Educate girls now, and get empowered women later. Misogynists won't even have homes to hide.

T-Ahmed and Aqua
The problem is that the Punjabis think Pakistan is Punjab or Punjab is Pakistan atleast three out of four provinces have this perception.

1. MQM / Mohajirs / Urdu Speakers had been discriminated in the past by the likes of
Ayub Khan - ( we all know what Gohar Ayub did in Lalu Khet- and the sacking of Mohajir
CSP officers - on basis of ethnicity ) -

2. Mushraff rose to power is a exception - I know atleast 15-16 officers of the Armed Forces
who were not upgraded- because of ethinicity ( we call it Punjabigardi ) - and there
are number of CSP officers who were sacked / not permoted because they were Urdu Speakers.

3. MQM is a counter-force to Jamaat-e-Islami - and a much needed entity - for
representing Urdu Speaking Nation in Pakistan . ( Your Views that MQM is violent -
is correct , I know how many of my brothers/sisters were killed and dumped on the
hills of Islamabad ( few people know that atleast 23 CSP officers Mohajirs from
the Police, IB and Ministry of Interior - actually resigned from Govt. during the
1992 operations )

4. If you guys think - that MQM should be cornered ; you are dreaming ! no one can
afford to ignore us - even if you do , MQM would not care. MQM is not a political
party but a Movement for Representation.

5. Urdu Speaking Nation - in form of MQM is fighting for the rights of Middle Classes,
Liberals, Moderates against Religious Elements - yes, with guns but the guns were
brought by Jamat aka Religious Terrorists - we don't have other options.

6. MQM welcomes PPPP's Leader Comming to Karachi - because shes a liberal and a
counter force against MMA and PML (N) - yes, we had our differences but we believe
in forget and forgive.

7. I predict blood-shed in Karachi - another ethnic fight it’s MQM vs. ANP.
(City Government's Plan to get rid of illegal encroachments mostly by Phatans and
Sindis and action against two stroke rickshaws)


Urdu Speaking Nation - contributes more then 65-70% of Pakistan(s) economy - and
What do we get in return? Penny’s! we are branded : Hindustoras - it is MQM which
has united Sunni, Shias, Wahabi, Barelvi, Deobandi, Ahmedi, Hindu, Parsi under one
roof.