Beginning of an End

rf: I present facts to you, and you call that preaching. I give up. Have a nice day.

Re: # 27

Dear tahmed32

Try practicing what u preach, this is the first time you have responded to my contention posted in #4, and I find your constant high priestess hypocritical posturing rather revolting.

Again your slanted attack on urdu speaking people is obvious and cannot hide your prejuidicial nature.

Do you deny the fact that Hameed Gul and NS (Tinda Sharif) used Punjabi chauvinism in 1988 against BB (PPP)?

Do you deny Bengali charges against Punjab domination?

Do you deny Baloch contention that Punjab is usurping their land and rights?

Dont try to hide behind concocted stories and slanted attacks, try answering these questions.

As for the Chaudhry CJP drama, Karachi is not divided at all, majority believes that it is Punjabi chauvinism, now you can disagree but that is your pregorative just as much it is my or any other individuals right to believe otherwise, that is called democracy. ie try practicing what u preach.

Re: # 24

Dear Ana,

Reference to Poonjabi was in direct response to tahmed32 unprovoked attack posted in #6, since he failed to show respect or maintain decorum he was reminded of the Bengali calling Punjabis as Poonjabi in their typical bengali lingo, it has no ethnic bearing or in anyway can be called disrespectul unless somene misinterprates it for some other meaning. With respect to the English (Gora) usage, it is something that has very little significance in modern day Pakistan where all desis are Pakis for the Gora.

Poon? I have no idea what poon stands or means.

I totally agree with your point about chauvinists being present everywhere, thus my contention that Pakistan is an artificial state that has failed to evolve into a political entity as a nation with similar vision and objectives. Being a state with varied ethnicities was never an easy option and our political leaders have used these differences for their personal benefit at the expense of state and its common people. If stating the fact is considered to be offensive then Iam guilty of such an offence.

I like your polite way of writing and meant no disrespect, thanks.

Pity

Arrogance, false sense of superiority, underming Other's cultures and heritages, name callings, and then " Hujats ".


Afsoos sad-afsoos.


it wont get any one anywhere...

#23 rf: So I am glad you have decided to set aside your namecalling and abuse, and to give a response to my comment on your original post of #4. This is what you have to say: Pakistan does have many problems and one of them is ethnic differences that sometime descends into punjabi chauvinism.

In the list of Pakistani problems, "punjabi chauvinism" would be close to the bottom. Indeed, there is a strong basis for saying that it is "panjabi non-chauvinism" that provides the bedrock of stability in Pakistan (e.g. non-ethnic basis on which panjabis supported politicians from Jinnah on down; the lack of ethnic violence in panjab even at the height of mqm rule in karachi; the ease with which panjabis switch from urdu to panjabi; and so on). And this is not mere coincidence: Panjabi simply means someone residing in the land of the five rivers, and panjabis comprise a large variety of people settled over the centuries here.

The most hopeful sign in Pakistan against military dictatorship - the democracy movement of recent months - draws the groudswell of support from the panjab while karachi can at best be described as being divided. With mqm and its followers having betrayed the entire nation at the hour of its greatest need by coming out with guns in support of the dictator.

So, try to understand why this constant and unprovoked insults to panjabis by urdu-speaking types on chowk (of which your post #4 to which I objected that you felt to offended by, is the latest example) having nothing to do with the reality of Pakistan's politics today.

#5 FerozK

[In 1954, for example, the United States' Supreme Court passed the landmark judgement in Brown vs. The Board of Education and desegregated the schools. Had the Eisenhower administration not deployed the National Guard on southern campuses to make sure that the African-Americans could go to previously white only schools, that judgment would be a moot judgment.]

There was (in the 1830's) also the case of the Cherokee Indians being forced to abandon their ancestral residence by the state of Georgia and subjected to other indignities. The Supreme Court ruled in their favor but Pres. Andrew Jackson simply ignored the order. Without the will of the executive – those court orders are not worth the paper on which they get written!

#24 Ana
[I am going to try to be pleasant and non-insulting here in my response...]

You are such an inspiration!!

rf786: I am going to try to be pleasant and non-insulting here in my response, so bear with me.

1) I do not think that my age matters, I know from listening and reading that some British folk still mispronounce the word Punjabi. And yes, once upon a time they were our masters.

But that is hardly the point.

2) I have not been to Chowk much in the recent past, so forgive me for not knowing what your ethnic background is. I am making no assumptions for Tahmed or speaking for him, but I personally find the misspelling and mispronunciation of Punjabi offensive because certain Punjabi-haters have used it before as an insult, perhaps knowing full well the pejorative use of the word Poon. (Will Chowk filter this post now?) Tauheed's reasons for being offended might be different than mine.

3) If you do not care for Punjabis, then fine, honestly I could not care less, but saying that Pakistan has many problems that sometimes descends into Punjabi chauvinism? Just about every ethnicity in Pakistan has their chauvinists, and more than a few Punjabis have been at fault for many things. And so have others. I am not being an apologist here, because quite frankly as a Punjabi, I can be really critical when it comes to Punjabis. Having said that, no matter what your distate is for Tauheed, or how much you disagree with him, some of us Punjabis wish you would be happy enough calling our Punjabi buzurg a Punjabi chauvinist. The rest of the pettiness you two can sort through yourselves.

I do not know who here referred to who as Urdu-speaking narrow minded bigots, so I will leave that alone, except to wonder what does Urdu speaking have to do with the narrowness of their vision?

Thank you,
ana

Re: # 21

Instead of slanting the issue and hiding behind concocted stories it wud be ever so better if you accepted reality and talked about the real issues. Pakistan does have many problems and one of them is ethnic differences that sometime descends into punjabi chauvinism.

Telling people to go to hell will not solve the problem nor does it make the problem go away.

As for Ana, once again u r making assumptions based on your pettiness.

Re: # 18 - dost bhai with all the positives Manto at times comes up with - hes correct when he said about Mushraff being the last Militry Ruler of Pakistan . There's no doubt about it - in anyone's mind in Pakistan and in Pakistani Armed Forces.

rf786: If namecalling and abuse was a substitute for substance, you would be the big winner. However, no amount of namecalling can hide the fact that you demonstrated your inability to rise above petty ethnicism on an issue that has nothing to do with ethnicism - namely, the democracy struggle in Pakistan.

As for your implying that ana is an older person, well surprise...her age has nothing to do with what she wrote. You merely demonstrate your pettiness here again by ignoring what she wrote and picking on personal issues.

Re: # 17

"former masters"? how old are you?

Re: # 14

Dear Poonjabi Chauvinist

Using the word "Poonjabi" for a prejuidiced, hypocritical idiot cannot be construed as a attack on the Punjabi baradari, calling people as urdu speaking narrow minded bigots is a direct attack.

Punjab chauvinism is the primary driving force for NS and Chaudhry CJP, like it or not but that is a fact.

State of Pakistan is a articial state held together by force, another observation.

This is not the first time Punjabi chauvinism has been used, it was used in 1971 to denigrate the Bengali and then in 1988 to attack BB (Sindhi leader). Fact.

So take your pompous hypocrisy and shove it where the sun doesnt shine.

ferozk:

"Mantolives was right, when he said, a long time ago, on this site that this will the last military rule in the history of Pakistan."

Aap kay moonh mein ghee-shakkur, but isn't it a bit premature to say so? Couldn't someone have made the same comment at the end of the earlier military rules? The time to make such a conclusion, in my opinion, would be when a civilian govt. has been voted out and not booted out by the military. The signs I see right now are not very healthy. BB and NS had entered an accord last year to fight the military jointly and not to make any compromise with the military dictator. As we know, BB has already flouted that accord and seems eager to share the royal bed with PM as long as she is allowed to be on top.

The only difference I see right now is the development of a very vibrant and aggressive media; I suspect that the recent boldness of the judiciary is perhaps also made possible by the independence of the media.

And the reason that Tauheed or myself might find the word Poonjabi insulting is not just because that is how our former masters used to pronounce it. If being in the real world means being insulting in order to get a point across, well it's just another day in paradise here at Chowk.

The word Poonjabi has been used here before. And not for Tahmed alone. I find it quite insulting as well, but I think it speaks more volumes of the one using the word than those of us supposed chauvinistic Punjabis. I mean someone using another's ethnicity to insult him or her has got to be quite the chauvinist or bigot as well, no?

in #14, that should be "and tell me why my response to #4 was not appropriate."

rf #13 "Exactly where have I insulted Punjab or Punjabi ethnicity?"

Read the line above your question for the answer to your question in the same post. duh!

For further analysis, go back and read your first post (#4) and read my response to it (#5) and tell me why #4 was not appropriate.

Re: # 12

Dear tahmed32 Or Poonjabi chauvinist,

Exactly where have I insulted Punjab or Punjabi ethnicity? Chauvinists can be found anywhere and everywhere, so why dont u take your head out of your know what and smell the real world.

rf: indeed - sachai ki shakal achhee nahiN hoti. And the truth is that mqm and its supporters saw peaceful demonstrators for the democracy movement in Pakistan as the enemy on May 12 purely on the basis of ethnicity. And the badshakal truth is that even educated and mature individuals like you and madani are incapable of going beyond insulting other ethnic groups.

All I can say is, thank God the rest of Pakistan is not dominated by narrow-minded individuals like you as the urdu-speaking group is, as is proven by your continued, unprovoked insults to panjabis and your continued support for dictatorship on the basis of ethnicity.

Nawaz's return will bolster the Opposition, but it won't dislodge Mushy because PML is in Ch.Shujaat's pocket, and Ch.Shujaat is in Mushy's pocket. Traditionally, the PML has always sided with the Government.

Only PPP and Supreme Court can upset Mushy's cart. The former might strike a deal with him, so it all boils down to getting past the Supreme Court.

ERRATA

"some how he is not made to believe,"


should be read

"some how he is made to believe,"

About Musharraf


Musharraf is ....some how he is not made to believe, he is indispensable for Every One,..that is why he now insists on Being there, even when now Not required.

Every One has a Shelf-Life, Musharraff should realize his shelf life is over.

To be prudent, he should follow the consitituon to the letter, he should resign, ...then wait the 2 years mandatory period.

These arrogant, pesudo democrats like BB and Ganjas , do not have it, its not in their genes, and are bound to bunk, and blink , and floor it again, within the three if not two years.

By then, people would again be weary by these Wolf Gangs,and Dog kernels, and would be wishing another Messiah.

its then Musharraff should Strike his comeback.....and I can bet, he will get twice the support and reception, ...by every one.

Re: # 6

tsk, tsk, tsk. Jub shukkal achee naheen hothee tho bathein achee kurlia karo. Punjabi chauvinism was the reason Bengalis decided to quit Pakistan, what makes idiots like u believe history cannot repeat itself, then again u r a Poonjabi chauvinistic imbecile.

ferozk: agreed. Mantolives was right - the pakistani public has had it with military generals thinking they are "smart" and their fascist supporters.

Pakistanis are much better than the scum at the top. I have always maintained that too. not that I am as perceptive as mantolives. :-)

rf #4 "panjabi activism"? cant you losers ever move beyond your stupid too-too-main-main about your precious urdu-speaking ethnicity?? if pakistan is an artificial state, fine. you are no longer in pakistan. go to hell.

I thought that the beginning of end started on December 16, 1971 but then again, it could have started on July 5, 1977 or it might have really started in October 1958. This is not the beginning of the end, as much as it is the end of the beginning.

The idea of judical activism is too immature at this stage to suggest that it will last, because the critical salience to judical activism is not that the courts pass judgements, but if they can enforce them. The writ of the courts in Pakistan will come from its enforcements of its decisions and not from merely passing judgements. In 1954, for example, the United States' Supreme Court passed the landmark judgement in Brown vs. The Board of Education and desegrated the schools.

Had the Eisenhower administration not deployed the National Guard on southern campuses to make sure that the African-Americans could go to previously white only schools, that judgment would be a moot judgment.

Superme Court of Pakistan cannot stand up to the might of the Pakistani military, but the Pakistani military cannot stand up to the might of a nation that refuses to accept its rule. Here lies the rub. This is the end of the beginning, because the beginning in this case was for the people to develop a concept of civic rights, and now thanks to a spirited media, they know their rights and have more politicals awareness than a generation ago.

Mantolives was right, when he said, a long time ago, on this site that this will the last military rule in the history of Pakistan. A new chapter is about to open, which still needs to be written, but the end of the beginning was when this nation reached a new level of political maturity and maybe, when historians write about the evolution of democracy in Pakistan, they will say the end of the beginning started on April 19, 2007.

Ciao

Dear Writer,

Good, balanced article, thanks.

Judicial activism? I have my doubts, this is the same bench that has judged in favor of the Military rule, twice. Element of Punjabi chauvinism is very visible, repeat of 1988 when Hameed Gul rallied the Punjabi masses favoring Kashmiri against a Sindhi woman.

How long can this artifical state survive is the real question.

Certainly a beginning BUT

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=20078\26\story_26-8-2007_p g7_10

about the end....

The second crucial challenge is posed by the seventeenth constitutional amendment, which bars them both from becoming Prime Ministers again. Supreme Court cannot come to their rescue on this.

The two-term rule would appear to only apply to BB because both her previous terms were terminated constitutionally under article 58(2b), while NS's second term was terminated through a military coup. Constitutionally, Rafiq Tarar is still the President and NS still the PM. The seventeenth amendment in most part will lapse at the end of six years i.e. end 2007 and no constituitional amendment shall be required.

Certainly this will go to SC for interpretation at the time of filing of nominations if elections are announced before then.

BTW, the sixth schedule to the 17th samendment includes 35 presidential orders including this one and even the parliament cannot amend these ordinances without the consent of the president even with a 2/3rd majority. So one can imagine how SC is going to view it.

well written article. No body nows what is in future. Has any ti speculate future of major players let them say today as things can change fast. All players are keeping their cards including USA which is final player.