Mother Teresa’s Moment of Truth

Another quite poorly written, pseudo-plagirized, tape-recorderesque, badly credited (nynewsdaily!!!) article by Gill who is in the habit of censoring articles that don't go along with his anti-god biases. Look fool, Mother Teresa was no "criterion" of faith nor was she an Einstein to have managed to answer the psychological and scientific implications regarding the God concept, nor are you as your BS about the virgin birth shows, which is a "scientific" possibility which we have already discussed on here and you were stumped. Now just because someone is commissioned by the Church and and becomes a media symbol on charity does not make her the final authority on philosophical and scientific questions. Is that too damn hard for you to comprehend?

Regarding the "Virgin Birth", let me reproduce one of my interacts back from 2005 when I recently started posting on Chowk, while living in the headquarter nation-state, of the Neo-Colonial elite:

----

#1 Posted by masadi on December 22, 2005 11:08:11 pm
The article is totally off the mark and tries to fit and stretch the Quran based upon whim and predetermined conclusions. Why do I say that?

He says that the aya in Sura Yasin talking about pairs of everything including humans means the Jesus had a father. Not so, the verse is merely talking about gender, male and female and not about Jesus` father- that interpretation involved deception and not ``thinking``. Or the claim that the Quran gives equal status to the messengers and similar message means that their biographies were the same- Not so, illogical conclusions.

Second, ``virign birth`` is not contrary to natural laws, it is not impossible, though it is unusual. Here is a news report that you all might want to read (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/05/05/tech/main552408.shtml)

``Human egg cells can be duped with chemicals and electric shocks to begin growing like embryos, which are coveted as stem cell sources``

The Quran is very clear that Jesus was born without the intervention of a male, ``...how can I have a son when no man has touched me.`` is very CLEAR. Using sense in reading the Quran does NOT mean you distort it by adding things according to your preceived morality or sense of right and wrong.---

Just because it is written in a book it doesn't make it true, Masadi. Just because someone thinks god speaks to him in the heat of the arabian desert, doesnt make it so. I am glad you are understanding what Dr. GIll is highlighting.

Its no use attacking religion
Whatever inspires you to do great things
-and in the process hurts no one -
except the idle skeptics.Who just want to sit on there science degrees a if that is the end and beginning of every thing, sitting on the sideline and only criticizing

Re: # 2
Masadi is factually right. In very rare case little girl can carry fertilised eggs from birth and proper time seed becomes plant. In usa or england some counrty in west one girl got baby without benefit of marriage.
In desert for some seeds are lying dormant for 1000s of yars and when rain comes. That is why jesus and Mary( PBUH) were so exceptional.

Mr. ahmadmadani,

In a world totally confounded & condemned by neem-scientists & neem-mullahs how have you managed to retain such a refreshed & uncluttered mind?

You remind me of those people of yester-years when the western education had not made us the jaahils we are now.

Re: # 5
"one girl got baby without benefit of marriage"

Why only one there are millions of teen pregnancy or single adult ones without marriage ..Its constitutional right of American women to have pregnancy and babies without marriage

I did not know that Mama Teresa suffered from the emptiness. So I am happy that you started the article with that info.

The rest of the article is hokey.

Re: # 1

masadi

Masadi got inflamed like his revengeful Salfi concept of Allah which he pretends to take care of with his dagger drawn or a suicide jacket in place; otherwise the truth is "Every angel has his past and every devil his future" and vice verse, of course.

I wonder what Shariah would say about a son born without father? In fact all Muslims claim to be 'Farzandaane Touheed' (offspring of Oneness). Any how: Why is it so baffling when an unmarried mother assigns her birth to God's doing?

And, question of questions: Is not 'Truth' above God. As it is, has not Mother Teresa became all the more respectable by speaking the truth about herself?


Morality is doing what is right, regardless what we are told.
Religious dogma is doing what we are told, no matter what is right."

Both Mother Teresa and Mr. Edhi emobody the extreme form of compassion for the dying, neglected.

Mr. Asadi, u are stooping so low. Life in the US didnt inculcate in u the ability to handle disagreements?

U sound too boorish to be taken seriously as a normal human being. I think u can make ur point without being abusive. I am aghast bcoz u're a PhD as well.

"the place of God in my soul is blank – There is no God in me"* (great quote Dr Gill!)

may be there is no God to start with, St. Teresa -- now with that questioning mindset you definitely deserve the sainthood. Bless you.

To be able to live in Calcutta and to believe in a benevolent God -- only an imbecile idiot could do that -- and St Teresa was no idiot – she also knew that's why the atheists are in control of the city for the last 25 years.

teshah writes "Masadi got inflamed like his revengeful Salfi concept of Allah which he pretends to take care of with his dagger drawn or a suicide jacket in place"

Look fool, don't invent straw men when you have no clue about my beliefs...Gill is in the habit of writing and publishing with his miserable mug shot, third rate BS articles that push his infantile point of view. He is also in the habit of having other articles censored by misusing his office at Chowk. He brings down by leaps and bounds the quality of this website for which I invest quite a bit of my time to share information...

what a load of bunk?
Mother teresa knew what she was in for, and was attaempting to do a buddha on the streets of calcutta with an eye on sainthood.

"oh, yes I was feeling al empty and scared etc etc, JC came to me and and with his help performed miracles" "Do I get the sainthood?"

Come on Gill you can do better than this!

dear mohammad gill....it is a coincidence that i wrote my reflections yesterday...and this morning saw your article...enjoy....sohail
MOTHER TERESA AND HEAVENLY FATHER
By
Dr. Khalid Sohail
www.drsohail.com
welcome @drsohail.com

I just finished reading the article The Secret Life of Mother Teresa , the cover story of Time magazine of September 3rd, 2007 written by David Van Biena based on Mother Teresa’s letters published posthumously in the book titled Mother Teresa…Come Be My Light.
After reading the article and excerpts from her letters my impression is that in Mother Teresa’s life Heavenly Father was conspicuous by His absence. She experienced a mysterious darkness in her soul and a painful emptiness in her heart as she could have no communication with God most of her life. She felt abandoned and rejected. Being a Catholic nun she had accepted Jesus as her spouse. She remained faithful to her spiritual spouse although the spiritual marriage was not consummated. She remained celibate physically, emotionally and spiritually. It shows how committed and dedicated she was.
Being a Catholic she believed in suffering. Alongside physical and emotional suffering, spiritual suffering was part of her suffering to become a saint. I am impressed that she was honest to herself and her confessors, who were like her psychotherapists, about the emptiness in her heart and darkness in her soul. She might have craved that human emotional and romantic touch that she never had being a nun.
Mother Teresa’s suffering was a mixed blessing, a curse for her but a blessing for humanity. She served the suffering humanity by serving the poor and the disabled and the hungry men and women of Calcutta as she saw Christ in their faces. In her mind by serving them she was serving Christ. She brought the dying men and women home and nursed them till their death as she did not want human beings to die alone. She filled other people’s lives with peace in spite of the emptiness of her own soul.
I found it interesting that she did not want her letters to be published as they were private, like confessions to a therapist, but her confessors and disciples did not respect her wishes. She did not want her admirers to doubt her sincerity or her mission to suffer. She did not know that her letters might be a testimony of doubt in a saint’s heart that would make her personality more realistic. She did not know that her admirers might love and cherish her more for her honesty and candidness. I have no idea about other admirers but I love her more after reading these letters. She was honest to acknowledge that God did not exist in her heart and wondered whether God was a myth and a metaphor rather than a concrete reality that could be experienced with our senses.. Being a nun and a Nobel Prize winner she could not share those doubts publicly and had to lead a double life.
I hope there are more believers that could be honest like Mother Teresa and keep on serving humanity in spite of their doubts in their religion and God. Jean Paul Sartre, the existentialist philosopher, said that we do not need to believe in God to love our neighbor.
For me it was a fascinating read and it inspired me to order the book and read all the letters of Mother Teresa. She was a saint who became a beacon of light for suffering humanity in spite of her own inner darkness.
How wonderful!
How sad!

Whoever was Theresa she has already proven her worth by her deeds. How can she be elevated even higher by her "doubts" is beyond me to understand.

The riffraff of the world who have no faith in themselves or others only seem to thrive on doubts of their own & others.

What a pathetic & miserable existence for the ones who have DOUBTS about their own DOUBTS..and need a Theresa to validate their own DOUBTS.

There was Mother Theresa who sometimes had DOUBTS about her FAITH...a good sign, a healthy sign, a scientific sign.

and then there is Mr.Doubtfire who has FAITH in his DOUBTS...a bad sign, a sickness sign, and unscientific sign.

It is astounding to note that in spite of the spiritual crisis that Mother Teresa underwent, she remained true to her work as well as to the people on whom she bestowed her love and sympathy (“Letters crack open Mother’s mask”, Aug 25). The Mother’s anguished letters to her friends and colleagues, revealing the ‘dark night of the soul’, cannot dent her image in our eyes. On the contrary, they strengthen our admiration for this exceptional human being who could fight a battle within herself and yet put up a brave face in front of the world. Even if her smile was a “mask”, it at least succeeded in soothing thousands of troubled minds. Besides, the fact that she felt the absence of God so painfully in her life shows her faith in the existence of the Almighty. Mother Teresa’s letters should not stand in the way of her canonization. On the contrary, the documents should support the arguments in favour of bestowing sainthood upon the Mother.

Sohail writes "dear mohammad gill....it is a coincidence that i wrote my reflections yesterday...and this morning saw your article...enjoy....sohail
MOTHER TERESA AND HEAVENLY FATHER"

Geez...here is the other moron who mass produces articles and sings "secularism" while not knowing its meaning...come on you hypocrites that parade as humanists. Take a hike, don't lower the already low standards of this site. WE don't want your nonsense, we want a bare minimum level of some scholarship not this BS. The fool writes a tale of fiction as if he was living behind Teresa's ears all the while and presents it as if it is fact...Too damn atrocious

Wish there were more mothere Theresa like for Mumbai specially its slums and dravi and also 'bastis' all over india

I do not understand the logic that since mother tressa had moments of doubt therefore God does not exist.

Mother Teresa’s Moment of Truth
What a "scientific" conclusion!

So in sweep:

All her life was a lie!

The inspiration she received from the God and "son of God"
was of no value.

The healing of the sick she learned & believed because of her belief in the healer prophet was of no consequence.

Has it ever occured to Mr. Doubtfire, the scientist in drag, that maybe she was contemplating to embrace Islam?...as so many archbishops, bishops, pundits, rabbis, top-scientists, diehard atheists, and avowed islam-haters have done just during the last 100 years?...

When will Mr. Doubtfire write about those & redeem himself to be worthy of the being considered even a lowly scientist.

Dear Khalid: #14

Thanks for your feedback which adds materially to what I wrote in my article.
Mother Teresa was a great human being by all standards. She was honest and gave vent to her doubts and despairs in her letters.
I had read Abu-al-Kalam Azad's "Ghuabar-e-Khatir" selectively. He also went through a phase of doubt and skepticism but in the end he returned to his faith. All thinking persons confront "uncomfortable questions" in their lives; some stick to reason and others to their faith. It is personal choice and there is nothing wrong in it if one avoids imposing one's own thinking on others.
Wishing you well,

Mohammad Gill

Mother Theresa was under the influence of the "DEVIL"; was that why a ryshed "sainthood" was conferred upon her"?
..before she could declare her true faith? Are we sure she was not murdered by the Pope-EYE..
__________________________________________________________
.. .When you have guns to back up your RATIONALITY, even your lunatics are celebrated as geniuses...

Some get exorcisms performed on them , some are sent to the licensed charlatans & given electric-shocks.

The day when the Doubtfires-in-drag will get treatment when the first rash appears will be the day when the itch-to-bitch will be gone.
_________________________________________________________
Mother Teresa (1910–1997), winner of the Nobel Peace Prize in 1979, had led such an exemplary life as a nun devoted to healing the poor of India that, shortly after her death on September 5, 1997, Pope John Paul II (1920– ) waived the customary five-year-waiting period and began the process to consider her for possible sainthood. On September 5, 2001, on the fourth anniversary of her death, the Archbishop of Calcutta, Henry D'Souza, revealed that Mother Teresa had an exorcism performed on her while she was hospitalized in 1997. Because the Roman Catholic Church performs exorcisms only when someone is believed to be possessed by the devil, the world was shocked by such a disclosure.

According to D'Souza, shortly before her death at the age of 87, Mother Teresa was admitted to a hospital because of heart trouble. D'Souza happened to be a patient in the same hospital during her stay, and he learned that the nun was having difficulty sleeping. When it was determined that there was no medical reason to account for such problems, it occurred to him that some evil spirit might be trying to disturb her during the night.

With the nun's consent, D'Souza arranged for a priest to perform an exorcism as a precautionary measure. Mother Theresa participated with the priest in a prayer for protection and slept peacefully after the ritual had been completed. Not wishing to tarnish Mother Teresa's sanctity, immediately after he had made the disclosure of her exorcism, D'Souza insisted that she had not been satanically possessed, and he was firm in his assertion that the exorcism should in no way affect her candidacy for sainthood.

URL:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q1m-8npkJ4

this video exposes mother teresa the so-called saint.
to show i am not against her simply for her being christian--which is what some sick souls on here would think--i am a great admirer of another theresa--st.theresa of avila a 15th century christian saint from spain.

in fact i might even write an article on her (teresa of avila aka st. theresa de jesus) for chowk.

I think it is wonderful that, despite having done so much for the poorest members of society, Mother Teresa had time to reflect on, and write about, issues of faith and existence. My respect for her increases even more on learning about this aspect of her character.

I remember reading about an old convent in Yorkshire England, where builders discovered remains of young babies, it seems some of the nuns had gotten pregnant, god knows who by may be some catholic priest, the aborted babies were buried in the garden of the convent. I think in the past many of the catholic girls were forced to become nuns against their will.

thanks

Naqshbandi & aslam sahibaan.

let me repeat #22

.When you have guns to back up your RATIONALITY, even your lunatics are celebrated as geniuses...

Some get exorcisms performed on them , some are sent to the licensed charlatans & given electric-shocks.
............................................
Remember she was a Saint (NOT peer)...hence our repects
Remember she got a medal.from sweden.must must respect that.
Remember she was White...makes lots & lots of difference.
Remember she was a European, and a christian, not an arab paki Indian or Iranian bloody muslim......Respects respects.

Remember she agonised, reflected, jinns attacked her, they
exorcised her jinns...............RESPECTS Galore.

TaaliyaaaN!

#27 Gulab Jaman, how does Mother Teresa’s worldly status lowers the status of the morons that may be dear to you? If you can’t show respect to such a revered person, don’t expect anyone to show any to yours.

Her belief in God was her personal struggle, and shouldn’t even be a matter of discussion. If we can believe a guy taking pony express to heavens and back, and another to come down from skies, her little uncertainty about divinity is peanuts in comparison.

so much for the sufi learnings naqsh!

Can you ignore all the good work that poor woman did? Or are you too busy becoming another rote mullah (but hiding under the sufi garb)?

She did a tonne of good work, and she was not arrogant about it, or thought herself pious and elevated due to that work. That shows true charachter.

kulharee, well put!

GhalibZaman: When you have - or when some maulvi has - spent as much time as Teresa did taking care of poverty stricken lepers and others, then you can talk. Or when you, or any damned maulvi, has spent even a day doing this, then you can talk.

Till then, your post is as hollow as a maulvis loudspeaker.

Re: # 14

drsohail

Nice write-up; I totally agree with you. It reminds me of BaYazid Bistami, a Muslim saint, who had a vision of journeying to heaven where he found the chair to be empty which he promptly occupied himself.

One who rises to the status of a saint becomes a 'Bhagwan' himself (At least according to Hindu philosophy). Poor Bhagwan, having no super-bhagwan Himself to love and worship, can turn only to his creation and love them to fill up His emptiness and allay His loneliness within.


Morality is doing what is right, regardless what we are told.
Religious dogma is doing what we are told, no matter what is right."

No one detests missionaries as much as I do. I hold them in total contempt at every level, individually and as a general group.

Yet 'Mother' Teresa rose above that. One salutes her for she was ultimately a very good person (despite her sainthood) who did very good work as her lifelong mission.

-------------

teshah ji, that is a beautiful statement of bhagwanhood, although uniquely put. :)

Note: I did not read the interacts.

All people of faith have crises of faith. The reason is simple – the practitioners of the faith are human beings.

If you met somebody of faith who knows all the answers and tells you they know all the answers and that they have no doubts at all – you have met a liar!

And if, by the remotest of chances, they are indeed not lying and they really believe what they are saying about not having those crises – run away from such individuals as fast as you can – because you have met sheer evil!

Mother Teresa comes across as a very human individual. Why is that so difficult to see?

PS: Mother Teresa was admired across the world not because of the strength of her faith but because of the goodness of her heart and the acts which resulted from such goodness!

NO need to get upset; Its her own church which is talking about her in a very civilisedlanguage , of course

or are we more christian than Christ?
____________________________________________________________
FULL REPORT here:

http://ww w.slate.com/id/2090083/

Mommie Dearest:The pope beatifies Mother Teresa, a fanatic, a fundamentalist, and a fraud.


"excerpts"...


By Christopher Hitchens
Mother Teresa: No saint
"
..." What is so striking about the "beatification" of the woman who styled herself "Mother" Teresa is the abject surrender, on the part of the church, to the forces of showbiz, superstition, and populism."...
"
...
It's the sheer tawdriness that strikes the eye first of all. It used to be that a person could not even be nominated for "beatification," the first step to "sainthood," until five years after his or her death. This was to guard against local or popular enthusiasm in the promotion of dubious characters. The pope nominated MT a year after her death in 1997. It also used to be that an apparatus of inquiry was set in train, including the scrutiny of an advocatus diaboli or "devil's advocate," to test any extraordinary claims. The pope has abolished this office and has created more instant saints than all his predecessors combined as far back as the 16th century.
...................."
"...
A Bengali woman named Monica Besra claims that a beam of light emerged from a picture of MT, which she happened to have in her home, and relieved her of a cancerous tumor. Her physician, Dr. Ranjan Mustafi, says that she didn't have a cancerous tumor in the first place and that the tubercular cyst she did have was cured by a course of prescription medicine. Was he interviewed by the Vatican's investigators? No. (As it happens, I myself was interviewed by them but only in the most perfunctory way. The procedure still does demand a show of consultation with doubters, and a show of consultation was what, in this case, it got.)
"

"...

Even more will be poor and sick if her example is followed. She was a fanatic, a fundamentalist, and a fraud, and a church that officially protects those who violate the innocent has given us another clear sign of where it truly stands on moral and ethical questions."

#33 Bhrata Kaal

What is this stuff about "detesting" missionaries?

Missionaries do good social service work. If some of their beneficiaries decide to convert, why does that bother you? Ask yourself the simple question - why don't the Hindus try to improve the same conditions so those folks will remain Hindu?

Do not say that you don't "like" missionaries!

Work harder at it and I am sure you will soon see many advantages in liking a more missionary position!

http://www.meteorbooks.com/

Present
Mother Teresa The Final Verdict
By
Aroup Chatterjee downloading book cover picture...
Was Mother Teresa for real, or was she 20th Century's biggest fairy tale ?
Prepare to be disillusioned...
You can read the whole book (text only, without the photos) online Click


Most people who swoon over "Mother Teresa" have never been exposed to anything but the mass media and / or the Catholic press versions of her life. Rarely have they even heard of the scholarly analysis of her life and work done by Aroup Chatterjee, a writer born in Calcutta who briefly worked for one of Mother Teresa's homes, and then spent eight years doing the research which culminated in his 425 page book "The Final Verdict", published in 2002. His is the most comprehensive critical analysis of Mother Teresa's life and work to date.
"Was Mother Teresa for real, " he asks, "or was she the 20th Century's biggest fairy tale? Prepare to be disillusioned . . ."
You can buy the hard copy book, or you can read the whole book (text only, without the photos) online at :
the Meteor Book "The Final Verdict

Teresa was a real cool chick, no doubt... despite her religiosity quirks.

Speaking of religiosity, it matters not what flavor you sample, it's always the same BS.

Check this out from the BBC, for example:

Nepal's state-run airline sacrificed goats to appease a Hindu god, following technical problems with one of its planes.

BBC News Item -- Click here

Welcome to the 21st century

...SR

Well, I couldn't get it to Click so here is the link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/south_asia/6979292.stm

good point bj...lets us accept whatever her religious conviction ...mother teresa did a lot of good work...and these bloody RSS ,VHP and other Islamic fundoos dont have the moral authority to critisize her

good point bj...lets us accept whatever her religious conviction ...mother teresa did a lot of good work...and these bloody RSS ,VHP and other Islamic fundoos dont have the moral authority to critisize her

SR 39,

Well well, the fact remains that the problems went away for nepal airlines by sacrificing two goats. Being in aviation for too long, I can definitely say that aircraft maintenance and trouble shooting is not so scientific as one would presume.

There are known defects and there are unknown unknown defects, and what is known as "calibrated tap" is a method to fix electronic boxes, if removing and re-installing them do not fix it. Clearly it was electrical fault and a few religious ceremonies and few good prayers are in order, along with some prayers for those who travel.

teshah #32 you wrote
Morality is doing what is right, regardless what we are told. Religious dogma is doing what we are told, no matter what is right.

Great quote, and which is very true. The Quran emphasizes exactly this point - i.e. individual responsibility to God - clearly and directly and in a number of ways (to the extent of calling upon the individual to respectfully reject even that what their parents taught them - without losing one's love for them - even if it does not seem right to them). The fundamentals of character building in schools in the US emphasize this very message (i.e. taking responsibility). And this is the central message of Islam that is hidden under by the "muslim" priesthood that seeks to be spokesmen for God and to suppress the duty of each individual to focus on what is right.

No wonder such abuse is being heaped on an individual who never sought public office, and chose to spend her life with lepers and the poor in Calcutta. Because this is what the religious orthodoxy (muslim, and from all indications even more so in case of hindu) tells its followers to do. Because Teresa gave something to society - while these priests of hinduism or islam seek to life off the work of others in society.

#37 - Gulab Jaman, for a Pathan, you read a lot (specially about mundane stuff like Mother Teresa). This much reading is not good for your reputation.

44:kulharee
thanks. I take that as a compliment.
------------------------------------------------------
Let us destroy this mythology about Maee Theresa, before
more children are impressed & corrupted by the school system

There is no cure for those who refuse to shed the popular myths that have become "facts" for them.

She was like the street beggar who would capitalise & use the diseased, deformed, & paraplegic body of a child to increase donations. All her money was used to build hospitals in US & elsewhere & NONE in India...she pervertly ENJOYED ( praised) prolonging the suffering & never in Treatment.

Read up on the "donations" she received from where & how she empowered the Vatican to use it for the well-known "crusades" around the globe.


What a great learning opportunity...thanks Mr. Gill
" All visitors bring happiness......some by coming, some by going"
__________________________________________________________
....... ."
The problem was her Roman Catholic belief that personal suffering helps to earn one's salvation. She thought suffering was good, and she didn't use pain relievers in her clinics. She had said that the suffering of the poor is something very beautiful and the world is being very much helped by the nobility of this example of misery and suffering. Many Catholic priests and nuns, to this day, wear hair undergarments, put stones in their shoes, flagellate themselves and otherwise try to merit heaven by suffering. Poverty and suffering are not simply endured, but are sought and even created. Just as she hoped to earn her way to heaven through her own deprivation and suffering, so "Mother" Teresa hoped to help her patients as well to reach heaven through the suffering she imposed upon them.

bhrata beej, you know this thread is about one person who happened to be a missionary.

Can we not admire her work other than her missionary business?

We can discuss this missionary business at some other time :)

SR # 38, that is a goat-like comparison.

One must always distrustful of people who find suffering a turn on, who don't build hospitals to cure the sick, who do not divulge the sources and destination of their funds.

Re: # 48 its like the mob?

but most proselyletising (spelling???) religions are like that - there is secrecy and a lot of funny handshakes etc..

Lest we forget some of these church charities are doing tremendous amount of good work, they are into everything from providing shelter for homeless to child care, off course there are secular charities as well but they seem to lack the commitment of the church charities I wonder why. In Pakistan we have maulana edhi sahab and a few others, I’m sure if more people were involved in NGO’s in Pakistan it would have tremendous impact on poverty reduction. There is a scope to set up NGO’s in Pakistan because western charities are overflowing with cash, apparently the reports are there aren’t many reputable ngo’s in Pakistan to give the cash to.

aslam644

If the government of Pakistan made an international appeal to Christian churches to come, open schools, and do good social work in Pakistan's poorest areas, Pakistan can get a lot of committed dooers of good deeds with plenty of money to spare.

This can bring in, fairly quickly, a lot of cash, along with invite many generous hearts.

Why is Missionary and if they are able to convert its not b/c something wrong with them but b/c there doors are 'OPEN"'unlike other Indians who would like not to help other under the "let them Suffer" attitude blaming Karma ,reincernations
there by breeding apathy and sitting with there hands clasped

Galib Zaman just b/c Aroop Chaterjee wrote a book what is his experience other than he lived in Calcutta..Would Masadi's critcism of America would hold b/c he spent some time in USA?

There has ben 'Anti Conversion Bill' in India since then during the NDA govt.but can you police the heart and soul by legislation or force ...Millions of Tribals and north East India tripura nagaland sikkim bhutan are becoming christians despite ...If not covnerted many Indians who have benifetted from the missioneries hopitals and there excellent schools like St Xaviers and all the Saints schools atleast are sympathetic t towards the christians and missioneries .I am sure same might be the case in Pakistan

As for the cry about accountability why is there no accountability for temples & madarssas

http://www.christianaid.info/About/FinancialAccountability.aspx

Shah2, as you know, in India, there is a lot of anti-Christian bigotry. If not, there should be. That bigotry is part of who we are.

But in Pakistan, with sister abrahamic religions, there is great opportunity for mutual benefit. If that benefit is fully realized, from one end of Pakistan to the other, even Indians may be forced to be more sympathetic.

Until then only people like beej bahadur will respect missionaries in India (mother Teresa is a different matter. She did enough work that her being a missionary can be, with some hesitation, and some precautions, ignored.)

#48
Mother Theresa never held back treatment for lepers and starving or old convaesing abandoned.Care of the old and diseased poor is still cause of suffering not mother theresa or her mission ...She did not like to end suffering by POISONIG her patients .If in your philosophy suffering is to be ended by death or suicide then mental sicked agonising should be justified i hanging him/her self and not POROlONG there suffering .

shah2, swarrier, surely Mother Teresa must have built hospitals, particularly with all the money she got.

If not, was there any reason given out? (curious icon here)

#54
Mother Thresa has built hospitals one BIG one in Calcutta and many clinics through out her region of activity and i agree with #48 that diseases should be tackled not by prayers but hospitals but if the driving force or inspiration comes from whatever source even god its benefit from it that is celebrated

Agreed. # 56

#54 Dear Shah2
Allowing lepers to die without anything but the least basic medical care, to hoard money without using it to build facilities to help the poor, the sick, to not promote self respect amongst them, and lastly doing everything in god's name, but not for the sake of humanity is as bad as poisoning them slowly. A quick death is perhaps more merciful. She could have done all of that but she chose not to.

MORE STUFF to DEDUCATE & DEBRIEF those suffering from the
Shlockhome syndrome.

Maybe she was harvesting body-organs...
It is not the first time the western Church & Corporation have not devised devious & diabolical plans to go the the nth degree to "enjoy" life & "Live" at any cost..Is that not the creed of Darwinism/?Capitalism taught at the "responsibilty-schools" of US?...NO WMD's eh?

..."According to some she took in millions of dollars in donations and used it to build her sisterhood. Little if anything went to the poor. She could have built hospitals or clean water facilities ......"

..."All the world over but especially in third world countries the Catholic church sits in its towers of pure gold while they could save untold lives ..."

...."anyone who lets someone die for their own good is repugnant to the nth degree and people such as Mother Whats her name is the worst of the bunch..."



and now from the book "Missionary Position"...amazon.com

- She regularly gave support to some of the worst dictators in the world, such as the Duvaliers in Haiti.

- Her 'hospitals' provided little real medical care; patients were not given pain medication (in fact, often no effort was made to treat them); Needles were reused after rinsing them in cold water; sometimes patients were not allowed to see family and friends. (Of course, she always got the best medical treatment herself.)

- Millions were collected by her charaties, yet nobody knows where much of the money went. With all the money they collected, they could have built a modern hospital, and/or fed thousands. Instead, the money seems to have been hidden away

- She campaigned in Ireland against divorce (even in the case of domestic abuse); yet she thought it was best that her friend Lady Diana to get a divorce because of how bad her personal situation was

- She had collected millions from one of the investors in a Savings and Loan scandal, and when he was arrested, she wrote a letter to the judge asking for easy consideration for him. (The prosecutor wrote a rebuttal, pointing out that many of the people who lost money in the scandal were also poor, and if she cared about justice she'd return the money. She never responded.)

#59
Did you ever give A penny to her

RE:#56
Kaal, Shah2 is right there are hospitals and clinics built by the Missionaries of Charity. However the big hospital in Calcutta was castigated by the Lancet as one of the most unhygienic hospitals around. It according to one observer resembled a concentration camp. It provides the most basic medical care. Now you could argue that this is true of many municipal hospitals in India. However Municipal hospitals in India do not have 50 million dollars available in a bank in NY(this was just under her name).
In addition she wasn't averse to taking bribe money from Charles Keating, holding hands with Duvalier etc...
My opinion is Mother Teresa was a marketing phenomenon initially opposed (when they thought she would supercede them) and then aided by the Catholic Church.
Baba Amte etc,Edhi etc have done far more for humanity without invoking God or conversion.
This is my last post on this topic. I am unconvinced of her saintliness but others can have their opinions.

You remember this line Kaal....

"It is the shoddy theoretician, the ideologue, the well-dressed and often well-spoken purveyor of deliberate delusion that replants the seeds and nourishes the harvest of evil from age to age."

Sometimes it is the self effacing humble appearing personage who also does the same thing, though in this case I would not go so far as to say it was deliberate, ignorant perhaps, but not deliberate.

For those suffering from the Schlock syndrome..brainwashed by the responsibility behaviour & mind-control

The worlds biggest CRIMINAL ORGANISATION & CORPORATION: The Vatican
http://www.arcticbeacon.citymaker.com/articles/article/1518131/7118 3.htm
Corruption In Vatican and Jesuit Order Revealed in 'The Almanac of Evil'

Frank O’Collins, has authored “The Almanac of Evil”, pinning the Vatican hierarchy, including the Jesuit Order, with a litany of serious crimes violating international treaties and international law.

The charges include but are not limited to prostitution, trafficking of prohibited narcotics, money laundering, murder, political assassination, fraud, pedophile rings, institutional incest, arms trade, as well as crimes against humanity including but not restricted to genocide, sadistic torture, germ warfare, ritual and satanic murder and cannibalism, child slavery, general slavery and wholesale destruction and suppression of human history, knowledge and wisdom.

swarrier #61 Good to see you illustrate the point I made in #43 wrt to the saying posted by teshah, namely:
Morality is doing what is right, regardless what we are told. Religious dogma is doing what we are told, no matter what is right.

My point being, of course, that "religious dogma" (like leprosy) is a disease that afflicts not just muslims but hindus as well. Use your brain to tell the obvious (i.e. tending to other people is good for society, while living off them as witch doctors, brahmans, maulvis, shamans and other thugs have done through the ages and in all societies is morally repugnant). And dont make idiotic statements simply because hindu priests hate Teresa because she actually contributed to society rather than lived off it on account of religion.

i would like to understand what her legacy is for india/indians to consider her a saint. india has been a prolific saint factory over the ages. typically for indians a saint is one who in his lifetime manages to touch people spiritually and his legacy is used as a marketig force-multiplier. we have our sai-babas and mayees with mamoth hair and hospotals and some other saints like guru nanak who formed the sikhs. so let us see if she is used well by indians or only by the vatican over time.

from Unplugged..more debriefing of the ones suffering from schlockhome syndrome..where they learned the Missionary responsibility
____________________________________________________________
This is what I think of Mother Teresa...
Topic started by delhiwala on Sep 6, 2007 12:24:04 pm

When in 1984 there were Sikh orphans first thing that they wanted to do was to convert them into Christianity.
Some Poor Sikhs did that but most did not.

They refused to take Sikhs into their orphanage when they did not convert.

So much for Charity of Church.

there sole motive is to convert people and that is the source of their charity and compassion. There is no same compassion for non Christians.

Whereas in Sikhi we show compassion for Sikhs and non-Sikhs alike(I am not making this up).

Re: # 51
I didn’t mean specifically church charities, now days western governments also prefer to deal with NGO’s they find them less wastage and corruption compared to third world governments. In present circumstances missionaries wouldn’t be welcome in Pakistan, the paradox is convent schools are oversubscribed that is the enigma wrapped up in mystery.

Re: # 65

'When in 1984 there were Sikh orphans first thing that they wanted to do was to convert them into Christianity."

EVEN if we take that as true,do yu believe ever indian non christians become minority ..thats phobia and incitement to whip up hatred and passion against certain community ....

EVEN if millions do covert -those who were near her since she became prominent -what would be there numbers to change the balance ...86% from 87% is not going to make the majority into minority ....

RE:#63 Tahmed32
[[And dont make idiotic statements simply because hindu priests hate Teresa because she actually contributed to society rather than lived off it on account of religion.]]

Could you tell me which of my statements is idiotic, and which Hindu priest has invoked hate speech against M.Teresa? Thank you.

http://www.crusadewatch.org
The above is a "HINDU" site....but not an RSS site

all Hindians whether mild, medium, or hot must study this . It is full of some very detailed work...with solid data.

If there is an iota of sense of dignity left in any Hindian he is bound to react to it..& this is NOT an RSS propaganda site.

"Get angry, it gets RESULTS!"...a great german philosopher.

This will certainly make them understand who has always been the greatest enemy of hindus, muslims, jews & any nation who was a victim of their Imperialism & colonisation..the ripples of which are still afflicting all of us.

First the Bible (under guise of "education"..jobs/jobs! in english), then trade(under guise of western CULTURE ) and coke/jeans syndrome) then the army & flag ( under guise of protection from "red" Indians , your own in villages mosques gurudwaraas,& temples).

Any wonder the missioned-commissioned one when he joins the army or civil service suddenly starts giving orders in alien lingo to his subordinates?

GhalibZaman, ironically, but for the issue of religious subversion, Hindus don't really have many issues with Chrisitans or the US/West.

You are right: they should get angry, very angery, but even getting angry at the issue of religious subversions is called "hatred" by their enemies, within and without. :(

Kaalchakra:
I can feel your pain brother...

Tomorrow when history will be written please make it abundantly clear not to complain that the numbers are dwindling because "others" oppressed us or "forced" us to convert.

This blaming "others" & in the process losing the best friends you ever had & ever will have is the issue which has yet to be "RESTORED"...and not through art & theater but through the meeting of the fundamentalists , the orthodox, the practitioners...not the part-time half-time hindus and muslims in either country.

FWIW, Christopher Hitchens did a demolition job on Mother Teresa in The Missionary Position: Mother Theresa in Theory and Practice.

Among other things, he commented on her glorification of suffering, the abysmal quality of the medicine practised in her hospices (even after she had acquired the resources for much better), her vocal opposition to artificial contraception, her intercession in support of Haitian dictator Baby Doc Duvalier and Charles Keating of S&L fame.

Hitchens is probably too easy on the Marxist fools who rule in Calcutta – his book is still worth reading.

[Aside for assorted Islamaniacs infesting this board: Hitchens doesn’t have anything good to say about you either. He has given Islam and the Majestic Quran a very satisfying pounding in his latest book. Read it and enjoy!]

GhalibZaman

You are speaking to the only "Hindu" who is converted. :)

I have been accused by both Hindus and non-Hindus of not being a Hindu anymore since I have been suggesting (as politely as possible) that NUMBERS MATTER, that pure, raw numbers are the hydrogen bomb of all social theory, and POWER, with numbers, without numbers, is the most important social goals.

But there is only so much one can do.

Ghalib Zaman although its you pergative why carry a muslim sounding name while bein BJP like

o kalutey aur a-null, tum jaise dalley aur bhadvey aksar apni asliyat chupananey ke liye chashma chadha lete hain. Kum se kum apni budhi ma ko to mut becho beyghairton

Kaal, numbers matter if they can prove something. 1.3 billion chinese are just 1.2 billion chinese and then there are teh 12 million jews. Go figure. I hate it when peole casually throw around numbers. Please be careful with the POWER of numbers.

chalta, that's fair. I will have to think a little more whether 1.2 billion Chinese, Australians, New Zealanders etc is the same thing as Muslims, Christians, or Hindus (but particularly Muslims because of Islam's specific nature), or whether 12 million Jews might be as powerful were they not Jews, with all the history of religion.

Must say I have at this time no answer to this viewpoint :)

Chalta, yaar, this view is best expressed here on chowk by you and anil ji - the belief that all religions will cease to be powerful (divisive) forces in reasonably forseeable future, and we should arrange our own worlds with that expectation, maximizing, instead, economic growth opportunities for everyone. Is that the right statement of the essence of the argument?

This seems like a big challenge, which chaltahai put before us. Does anyone know or understand why the view so eloquently expressed, as below, may not pan out as predicted? Or is this a widely shared view among both Hindus and Muslims alike here?:

"In 50 years, we will laugh even more at religion and in another 300 years, we will all look like Derek Jeter. I see more fu**g going on between Indians and whites and chinkoos adn south east asians and blacks and latinos and even the gay germans that all this bullshit of hindu/muslim/sikh will just be flushed into the ocean. So don't worry about it bro..Krishna brand vanasapati ghee in pakistan for iftar dinners and Mohammed Brand two ply paper towels are around the corner. The future is bright."

Anybody who visits Nirmal Hruday in Calcutta wud give-up the idea that Mother Teresa was engaged in conversions. Her flagship Nirmal Hruday was bang next to Kaalighat temple, the most popular temple in eastern India. The location she chose would be provocative. She lived with many confrontations with the priests of Kalighat but they made peace long ago.

The ppl who get the basic medical help at Nirmal Hruday are the ones who die in a day or two. Some even cant talk or make sense of what's happening to them. Who converts them? What's the use?

Yes, if she used her money and fame to convert some ppl, it's again the question of conscience and individual choice. Our guys converts whites to Hindusim that too as Brahmins and the white Brahmnins in turn are very active in converting some more whites to Hinduism.

Who cares?

Fresh from reading (National Geographic) abt Edhi the Father Teresa of Pakistan, I felt that these quixotic souls spend their lifetimes for charity work for some altruistic reasons. They get happiness by doing some service to the society. There are many ppl who're inspired by Teresa and Edhi who're doing yeoman service to the society in their own domains. For eg. Chiranjeevi runs many blood banks in AP for no profit. He's not a Christian. I am sure there are some budding Edhis in India and Pakistan.

Goodness promotes goodness.

VRV bhai
"Our guys converts whites to Hindusim that too as Brahmins"

Why this beholden attitude by Hindu to wards whites when Kali And Krishna gods were dark skinned ..or you dont care about religion as as much prefernce for being a white ....

vrv, shah2

Both of you friends seem to be incurably racist. can you put aside your racism for a few minutes? :)

I guess there are 2 sides to everyone. Mother Teresa's missionary approach to mankind which many people loved or the fact she was deluded with her faith and as many people who feel they are doing God's work are actually in fact doing more harm than good in the long term. Millions of people around the world are mislead from the reality of how life really does function. MT spent sometime realizing this but at the same time saw the conflict between her discoveries and her faith and in the end choose the faith since it would keep her life in the same order without turning it upside down.

Mark Henry Robinson

#82 Kaal
My comment was in the spirit of reminder and education if you may .I never intended to demean any god and i am sorry if you mistook it as rascist derogatory comment which it was not

As i see it while almost all people acknowledge her decent work but some not her religion ...people are pulling out different books and aticles discreditting her .
Its more to prove that nothing good can come out of christian faith itself b/c the church or Pope are corrupt and priests are known to have sexually exploted children.
Articles criticing MT may be from Christians themselves.lets say even if there was misappropriation of money as her critic allege is her religion to be blamed for it ,if any good is not assigned for these same critic not by her faith.There has been lot of criticism of christianity by those who have degrees in science and bilogy to doubt .Christianity has been for 2000 yers and if you consider rennaisence and the accompanying scientific enquirey started in europe a predominately christian countries .Dont forget there more than billion of Christians who still adhere to there faith and all of them cannot be wrong ...attacking as dogma or biggotary is no threat to them if attacking you hope to make any difference .

Its uncomfortable feeling of people not being able to do good work themselves even though not there fault or b/c of lack of oppertunity or some out right jelously guarding there parlysis laziness

shah2, no problem. You are obviouisly not any bigger a racist than I am, and perhaps neither did vrv intend to see things as a racist.

My ONLY problem is with the idea of asking people to leave their religions, their cultural associations, their identities in the context of "helping them," or with creating such conditions where this kind of thing happens or is faciliated. I find that morally reprehensible and politically criminal, to be treated as such by affected parties.

If Mother Teresa was not a "missionary" in that sense and her work and life did not in any way facilitate/promote that kind of 'help,' I don't have much of a problem. May be she was corrupt, silly, or whatever else, quirky may be.

In general, it is much better to be quite suspicious and careful than to be badly surprised, though.

By the way it just occurred to me that there is a whole new awareness in the US of sexual predators - of "helpful" people who take advantage by 'helping' and 'persuading' others in asymmetric situations. Thre is increasing societal demand that such helpful good samaritan people be put behind bars, preferably for life.

This is the identical behavior.

Re: # 86#87

I understand and agree with your apprehension

Kaala Chakra & Shah2,

I am not a racist. I met many white Hindus. All claim themselves to be Brahmins!!! How can converted whites be Brahmins?

Shah2, u are a presumptious prick.

Converted white considers himself so b/c
they considers himself welcome by brahmin hindu as if they were trophy ...
i am not surprised you never found a black coverted to hinduism b/c you will have hard time placing him in any caste but the lowest if any .
This i am not presuming but have seen hindus avoiding muslims and blacks too.Class muslims have drwn MD . Ali to Yusuf Islam (former cat stevens pop singer)Alike.

#90 read Classless

Debates aside, is this really an article? It reads more like a badly patched arrangement of different articles. It follows no course, jumps from one point to another and leaves the reader in disarray.
Thouroughly disappointing.

Shah2,

I must tell u abt the expat Gujarat mentality (atleast some). My first landlord in UK told me that he follows BMW principle in Englad. The bulk of the self-proclaimed Hindu big mouths in the west are from Gujarati community.

He never do business with or trusts 'Blacks, Muslims and Whites' and that's his BMW pricniple (though he's British and never lived in India; he's a Kenyan Gujarati).

As for me, I dont have such inhibitions. I am a free soul.

#92 Posted by Ansa on September 8, 2007 12:28:19 am

This's what I felt abt this article as well. Dr. Gill writes well but this one is not good.

vrv: why would anyone - black, muslim or white - want to do business with one of these miserable looking men shuffling around in chappals and cheap clothes at airports and malls?

"As for me, I dont have such inhibitions. I am a free soul."

Shah, I, and everyone else in East and West can be proud of such a person.

Kaala Chakra,

Ur sarcasm is well received. Thanks.

TAhmed,

I am just giving example of how ppl live with prejuidices though apparantly modern.

#43 & 63

Tahmad

Thank you dear for your comments. I find that whereas all Christians, especially the missionaries, are generally full of compassion for human beings without being judgmental, whereas the Muslims, especially the religious ones, lack any compassion for humanity at large. Islam, as interpreted by the Mullah, is perhaps the only religion which authorises its adherents to
declare any body a kafir (Takfir) and hate him, nay, even kill him.
Morality is doing what is right, regardless what we are told.
Religious dogma is doing what we are told, no matter what is right."