A Friend of Feudalism

Masadi one can come to US without money as well on a scholarship, but that aside you are most welcome to your worship of bhooto and his cult, since you said he has achieved only what prophets have achieved before in world history. I think you have the same view of our beloved prophets as the hindus on this site, but like them u can never convince us muslims of your version of the facts.

i think you should build a qibla for your cult in Larkana.
Adios

Re: # 39

Yawn... Masadi you know so little about Bhutto. Forget anyone else.

Now the real facts:

FACT: Fatima Jinnah was the consensus candidate of COP. COP included people like Wali Khan, Bhashani and Maududi who had no love for Quaid-e-Azam but knew it was Jinnah alone who resonated with the people.

FACT: ZAB was the architect of the election fraud of 1965. He was election manager of Ayub Khan- the imperialist Military dictator. He chose to be the B-Team of the dictator in order to fool the people.

FACT: Fatima Jinnah secured support in both East and West. Despite massive rigging by Ayub and Zulfi Bhutto... she managed to carry 30 000 Basic Democrats out of 80 000. According to most historians she would have won a direct election.

FACT: Bhutto refused to accept the mandate of the people in 1970 election. Bhutto, instead of siding with the democratic forces, hobbed knobbed with military in 1971 and was Army's frontman in the West.

FACT: Right or wrong Bhutto laid the foundation for what Zia-ul-Haq later built. His 1973 constitution played on Islamic sensibilities. He also played politics with the Ahmadi community and its status. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto carried out a series of "Islamic" reforms in order to protect his government - the result of rigged elections of 1977- before falling prey to his own doing.

FACT: ZAB was the genius behind Operation Gibralter which led to a full fledge war between Pakistan and India in 1965. ZAB had no small role in the events of 1971. He did not want peace with Pakistan's neighbors. He also started the Islamist insurgency in Afghanistan at America's behest.

FACT: ZAB's government presided over one of the worst military operations in Balochistan which was as bad if not worse than Musharraf's military operation today.

FACT: That Don Bhutto got his political opponents tortured, jailed and even murdered is one thing. He even got people like J A Rahim abducted in the middle of the night, beaten, abused and humiliated.

FACT: ZAB created the FSF which was a lot like the Gestapo. Bhutto was probably a fascist at heart.

FACT: Bhutto the genius also re-organised the intelligence services and created a politically-oriented ISI which to this day continues to haunt Pakistan's politics...


I could go on... but I'll leave it here for now.

"They are similarly "not sure" if Noam Chomsky, Michael Parenti or similar authors would "sell" so they reject them as well"

and

"Masadi books, five years after publication now rank higher on amazon time and again than Ann Coulter's books just one year after publication..."


Wow!!!

Vis a vis the article.. what Pakistan needs is more of the urbanite non-feudal educated politicians like Mahomed Ali Jinnah or a refined version of Imran Khan or Aitzaz Ahsan (Aitzaz Ahsan's might have some agrarian land in Gujrat but he has made his fortune at law and is very much in the Jinnah mould).

I think it is about time the Pakistan People's Party got over the Bhutto personality cult which has dwarfed its political evolution and maturity. It is this cult that is both its greatest fortune and misfortune. Today Bhutto's shadow keeps people like Aitzaz Ahsan and Raza Rabbani, both infinitely more talented than any of the Bhuttos, from coming in the forefront and playing their part.

US: Pakistanis are struggling behind their Chief Justice for free and fair elections? Agreed, and we hope General Mush will do this.

Saudis: General Mush want to keep Nawaz Sharif out so he can make a mockery of the forthcoming elections? No problem: Saudis 'ask Sharif not to return' http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6979252.stm

Something to think about for Pakistanis to reflect upon.

Trying to evade all the historical FACTS that I presented. What a cheap excuse Manto Answer them you fool if you can, but you cannot so you do this nonsense number.

Fact: Fatima Jinnah was chosen because of MAJ (monarchial succession)- you don't disagree

Fact: The people rejected Fatima Jinnah, you claim Bhutto rigged the elections but provide zero proof, and you have none.

Fact: There were no direct elections so who would have won or not one cannot be debated as fact

In the 1970 election Bhutto for the first time ever in Pakistan carried the mandate of the people of the West, winning an overwhelming majority. For the reasons I have suggested which I recently (after I suggested them) discovered in his own words from his letter to his daughter (once again thanks for pointing me to the site bhutto.org which has the pdf of much of his work):

(quote, ZAB's words)"After years of suppression, once the flood gates were opened,
there was nobody capable of closing them without a catastrophe.
Mujib-ur-Rehman felt that “enough was enough”. He campaigned on
the manifesto of his famous Six-points which meant autonomy of
confederal character. On this battle cry he swept the polls in East
Pakistan. Our party obtained an overwhelming majority in Sindh and
Punjab to become the majority party in West Pakistan. We made it
plain to Mujib-ur-Rehman that we would not only be happy but
honoured to sit in the Opposition but in a federal structure. If it were
to be a confederation, both wings of the confederation would have to
participate in Government. It was a very simple and unassailable
proposition. If Mujib-ur-Rehman compromised his Six-points to the
extent of having a federal structure, he was welcome to form the
Federal Government. If he did not budge an inch and was determined
to create a confederation, he could not govern the confederation to
the exclusion of the majority party from the other wing. Mujib-ur-
Rehman would not budge an inch of Six-points. He adopted a “take it
or leave it” attitude. There was a genuine deadlock. General Yahya
Khan thought that the deadlock came to him as the opportunity of a
life time for self-perpetuation. He sought to break the deadlock by
military action. His military action unaccompanied by any sensible
political cover, created a pretext for India to march into East Pakistan
in November 1971. By 16th December 1971, Dacca fell to the Indian
Army, along with ninety thousand prisoners of war from West
Pakistan.
I was at the United Nations at the time making a desperate
attempt to save the impossible situation. When General Yahya Khan
surveyed the wreckage and was convinced that all was lost, that the
likelihood was that nothing could be regained, that the probability was
My Dearest Daughter Copyright © www.bhutto.org 41
that what little was left stood endangered, he sent a special
aeroplane for me to return to Pakistan. With blood-shot eyes and with
brandy beside him. Yahya Khan told me at 10:30 a.m. on the morning
of 20th December, 1971, that he had failed miserably and that I
should assume charge of an assundered Pakistan as I alone was
capable of saving what was left of the country. In those ominous
circumstances I was sworn in as the President of Pakistan
"(end quote)

Fact: Bhutto did not lay the foundation of what Zia built upon later, in fact the conspiracy in the name of Islam was hatched by the US and its occupation force long before. Bhutto tried adjustments to counter that for the sake of the people.

Fact: The Gibralter incursion was long after the Indian incursion at the Rann of Kutch, the incursion that Bhutto supported might have led to war across the International Border due to Indian belligerance but in his arguments that narrators say convince Ayub- the decision was his- ZAB told him that it would remain isolated in the Kashmir area. That he was brave and unafraid of the cutting off of US army aid to Pakistan says quite a bit against your "Islamic insurgency for the Americans".

Fact: Bhutto made peace with the neighbours and unaligned from the US. Your history of the Daoud and the Afghanistan situation is completely skewed. Pakistan/Afghanistan relations were at a sore point due to the Pustunistan issue, which was single handedly resolved with the proposed recognition of the Durand Line and peace in 1976, now before this when the so called "Islamic Insurgency" was pushed out by Daouds forces they sought refuge in Pakistan and being the enemies of the enemy who has set up camps to train Baluchi insurgents in Kandahar, Bhutto naturally welcomed them, but there was no training and arming and indoctrination of the Zia kind, backed by the Americans. In fact America was not interested in Daoud because he had gone to them with a begging bowl again and again and they had turned him away which forced him to go to the Russians.

Let me copy paste his own words

"In those ominous
circumstances I was sworn in as the President of Pakistan
I got moving energetically on all fronts. Among the first tasks I
turned to was Constitution-making with a democratic consenus on the
vexation question of autonomy. I revamped the economy. I
introduced fundamental social and economic reforms. I settled the
Bangladesh problem by recognition. I concluded the Simla
Agreement with India without any secret clause or understanding and
got over five thousand square miles territory in Sindh and the Punjab
back to Pakistan. I got the release of ninety thousand prisoners of
war in honour and without the threatened war trials. I held the Islamic
Summit Conference in Lahore. I got America to lift the arms embargo.
I modernized the armed forces. I put the country back on the track.
The recovery was spectacular. My greatest satisfaction lay in giving
the country an all-party constitution by democratic means. The
Constitution of 1973 was the first unanimously-approved constitution
by a democratic assembly to bless Pakistan with a fundamental
framework based on Islam, democracy and autonomy. It was the
voice of the people of the four provinces of Pakistan articulated in a
constitutional document by their chosen leaders. Autonomy, which
had defied solution for over a generation and which had been the
bane of the politics of the Sub-continent from time immemorial, was
at long last settled to the satisfaction of the people and their chosen
representatives. I experienced the kind of joy, the thrill of happiness
which brings tears to the eyes."

Fact: You cannot base your "facts" on the claims of his political opponents without a single shread of evidence. The guy might have made mistakes but those mistakes are pea size compared to what he was able to achieve both nationally and internationally. You have achieved nothing and so can copy-paste and "talk big" like the MAJ who was single handedly responsible for over a million deaths due to his shenanigans.

By the way, don't run away like a damn coward, what I had posted before were REAL facts, not disputed by a single historian, and you evaded EVERY single one, unlike me, who has addressed and has been addressing every one of your lying claims that are not based on historical facts but are your skewed interpretations that don't bear any relationship with the facts. You do it because you are the high priest (priestess) of the now routed Church of the MAJ.

borivili express writes "i think you should build a qibla for your cult in Larkana."

Unlike you, I don't worship people, only Allah. I respect the man for one reason alone, that he was the voice of the poor masses of not only Pakistan but the world and for the first time in this nation he taught them the lessons of democracy, damaged if not broke the temples of the elite and shook the pillars of the power states and the power elite, for the purpose of which he lost his life. That and that alone to which history has borne witness regardless of what the High Priest of the Church of MAJ says, the other things like Gibraltar and what not are, as HP said correctly footnotes in history books. He left his mark as a friend of humanity on the global scene of the 20th century and no son of a bitch can take that away from him

Borivili express writes "Masadi one can come to US without money as well on a scholarship,"

Scholarship recipients are not even a fraction of a percent of this country's expats, and not even if you live across the border in Mexico can you make it in safely to the US without significant funds....Ghetto living is much harder both physically and psychologically than living outside your country of origin, Urstruly was busy making the common excuse of "toiling" and "suffering"- when he damn well knows he wont come back to settle in Pakistan even with a million dollars stuffed in his pants...

Manto writes "Today Bhutto's shadow keeps people like Aitzaz Ahsan and Raza Rabbani, both infinitely more talented than any of the Bhuttos, from coming in the forefront and playing their part."

Education alone is not what "leadership" is about. I read Bhuttos books and find shortcoming in them but does that take leadership away from him. No way. Those people you talk about are pygmies compared to ZAB, they don't come forward because they don't have his leadership, they don't have his charisma, they don't have his courage, they don't have his conviction, and finally they don't have the support of the people through sheer hard work that he had...We don't need more of the MAJ BS that has dragged this nation down from its inception or celebrities like Imran who will be crucified by the elite due to their immaturity and lack of leadership, we need someone like the ZAB, who combines my thesis on the global situation with the oratory and leadership skills of the ZAB....then Pakistan can rock and roll....

The period of ZAB was disaster in economic terms for Pakistan even though it had massive inflow of aid from arabs and iran, nationalisation of industry and banks set the country back decades, banks have only just recovered from mismanagement and corruption. The demagogues of the third world like Nasser, bhutto were good at playing the politics of envy and jealousy, but the facts are they failed miserably to give their people better standard of living, compare that with dr mahathir of Malaysia he cooperated with the west, eliminated poverty and Malaysia is on the threshold of joining the first world.

As the tory party used to say the definition of a commie is he has fukk all and he wants everybody to have same.

Masadi,

On the "poor nighbour" board you hurled invectives at Walter Russell Mead. On many boards you have abused Manto, Hamid, Tahmed, Anil, Okhla, Jayp, borivli, iron, dost etc.

You appear to have a foolish belief about some non-existent overwhelming intellectual superiority. You refer to others as "morons", "dimwits", "sons of bitches", "fata$$ slobs", "brains the size of a rat's fart", "idiots","peons of the west", "bhaands" etc. These others are all decent thinking individuals well respected in their place of work/residence. Unlike you Masadi who has been unceremoniously kicked out of the University/country.

Just because Chowk gives you some freedom of expression you go around misusing and abusing it to the extreme. No one cares for your bullshyte notions of conspiracy theories by evil elite. Go back to Lulu.com.

Masadi sahib,

#31

(The division was not only total between East and West, regarding people's opinion, one person ran on the 6 point plan that he wanted to implement country-wide)

There have been many Indian political parties which have started off with similar agendas, Akali Dal (Anandpur Sahib resolution) being just one of them. But practical realpolitik forces them to modify their stands, now SAD is no less or no more “anti-national” than INC or BJP. I will not get into the merits of the 6-point agneda but assuming that it is anti-national or unpatriotic in a way to begin with, there is a distinct possibility that responsibility would have made him more realistic. In any case, no harm would have been done had ZAB simply allowed him to assume office. At best, Pakistan wud have become a democracy. At worst, Mujib’shenanigans wud have caused a split (which anyway happened) at least Pakistan would not have been tainted with the charge of having caused a genocide of its own people

(The other difference that you are overlooking in your comparison with India, is that in between the North and South of India there isn't "enemy territory")

You have referred to the geographical peculiarity of Pakistan vis-à-vis India. Have you thought that in context of the aforesaid peculiarity that the 6-point agenda may not have been a flawed one to begin with?

“Try and argue with these facts now fool.....”

Okhla sahib, Masadi sahib has been given a badge of honour which till now only belonged to a select few- YLH, Tahmed sahib, Hamid mian, yourself to name a few. I am truly honoured.

And of course Masadi sahib, you are silent to his other karnamas- like his torturing of political opponents, genocide in B’stan/NWFP, gagging of opposition open threats to political opponent incl. The Leader of Opposition, the fact that this family remains one of the biggest feduals, his treatment of Ahmedis. Do argue these facts, O Wise One.

(Finally, you have conveniently overlooked the FACT that Bhutto was willing to compromise and he only asked for a delay of 120 days)

I have not overlooked anything. ZA Bhoot asked for 120 days so that he could arrange for armed forces to create a genocide in Dhaka. Meanwhile he could threaten to break the legs of any W Pak legislator who wud attend the NA.

#54

(You do it because you are the high priest (priestess) of the now routed Church of the MAJ.)

I am afraid that the so-called Church you are referring to (a Church whose creed is summed up that in that famous 8/11 speech that Manto mian keeps referring to) is gaining more and more adherents around the globe. That citizenship and faith do not intersect. And its founder who has long been villified unfairly (no mean amount because of his depiction in the movie Gandhi) is now getting more and more his just dues thanks to the efforts of people like YLH- I am sure you would have read by now that the guy has a 97% approval rating in Pak and as much as 46% in India (a country which he allegedly broke up) and mind you this 46% happened without Mohar, Muthu and I voting.

Regards

masadi #: you are taking a one-sided view of bhutto.....which is your option.....but there were other parts of his decisions, which are facts that you are ignoring:

- bhutto was a product of the true elite of pakistan, from multiple directions......he was the son of a major feudal, who was involved in politics......this alone separates him from the awam......in addition, he was the product of the military regime of ayub khan.....much like zia elevated nawaz, ayub elevated bhutto....this further separates him from the awam......there was, thus, nothing awami about him...

- bhutto did not sweep pakistan in elections....he did not, even sweep west pakistan.....he only swept the punjab, where he had an outright majority.....in sind he had a majority.....what about east pakistan, nwfp and baluchistan....

- the actual winner of the elections was mujeeb....had mujeeb been allowed to form the govt. as per the constitution, it would have been the awami revolution, you have been mentioning......bengalis were not fedual......mujeeb truly had an awami base, as east pakistan was the only place, where such a base could have been obtained......bhutto, actually, colluded with the army again, and sidelined this awami base, thereby, ensuring that the feudal and army generals remained in power......this was, infact, the one time, a true people's movement could have occurred in pakistan....which is, what i assume you are interested in......

- bhutto never broke the hold of the feudal.....in fact, he strengthened it......the feudal still runs pakistan.....and the feudal is the biggest suppressor of the common man.....the army, the businessman, etc. cannot suppress the common man, in its constituency, like the feudal can

- bhutto's party is the biggest dynastic family party in the history of pakistan....it is the only party in pakistan's history, which has only had one family ruling over it......there is no other political party in pakistan that falls under this category......

Romair sahib

R#61

Very well said, sir.

Manto mian,

(I think it is about time the Pakistan People's Party got over the Bhutto personality cult which has dwarfed its political evolution and maturity. )

If India' example is anything to go by, it is not happening. INC has not outgrown the Gandhi-Nehru dynasty and the dynastic cult has engulfed the so-called socialist and regional parties as well. Only cadre based parties like BJP and CPM dont have a dynastic principle and neither does BSP (possibly only becuase its leaders till date- Kashiram and Maya were unmarried).

I am afraid in ur case that only leaves the MMA as non-dynastic entity. Not a very happy picture I guess.

Regards

bulleya:

The east Pakistan separation plan was set in motion right when Ayub Khan took over as C-in-C. Jinnah detested the man & Ayub knew it. Ayub had always been asking how to get rid of these dark, small, high IQ pesky men who were a kabaab meiN huDDee in his dreams to become the next Shahenshah a la Iran. There are reports of he even conferring with some of his close friends about such a plan.



The Bengalis, from Maulvi Tamizzuddin, Fazle-Haque, Suhrwardi maulvi Fareed -ul Haque and Maulana Bhashani were some of the great Bengalis who represented the total oppopsite of the values of W. Pakistan , especially the ever-compromising & "chaddho-mattee-pao" mauj-karo law-toaro Panjab

Just think about it:

Mahatma & three Gandhis die violently, Liaquat dies violently, Bhutto dies violently, Mujib dies violently , Zia dies Violently.

The big question is would we have not killed Jinnah as well..
or maybe he was really killed thru crass "negligence".

Bulleya writes "- bhutto was a product of the true elite of pakistan, from multiple directions......he was the son of a major feudal, who was involved in politics......this alone separates him from the awam"

Wrong and myopic. The fact that Bhutto walked the corridors of elite structures in Pakistan and then turned challenged them says quite a bit in favor of what I wrote about him than what you write (btw you are acting as an apologist for the military, that has facilitated feudal rule and imperialism in this country, and you have supported Musharraf and now are doing a 180)

The fact that ZAB made the plight of the common man and the integrity of this nation state his main campaign issue in the elections, and mainstreamed the people as powerful says a lot about his great leadership. Mujib on the other hand was running not on a people's platform but on ethnic seperation and justice issues much like the MAJ. Why the people's message of empowerment didn't lead to ZAB's majority in NWFP, and Baluchistan have to do with the history of that area and the tenuous relationship with the center. He was not a miracle worker though the problems that he solved in a short period of time were akin to miracles. That he infused the spirit of democracy in this nation and took the plight of the poor toiling masses not only on the domestic scene but on the international scene and challenged the neo colonials is an achievement that no army dictator rat has ever accomplished in this country.

Regarding the other torture and civil rights allegations, these are claims of political opponents in a country based on whose setup and power struggles no politics can be crystal clean and smooth. The way that he was killed further shows how "pro-elite" he was as you claim. The claims about the 1970 elections have been answered quite thoroughly, I am not going to keep repeating them. Neither you nor the High Priestess of the Church of MAJ have been able to answer them in either of your posts...Produce ONE person in Pakistan's history that has done comparable work for either the common man and his image on the domestic and international scence and gone against the elite as much as Bhutto did and then we can talk. There is no one else, if everyone else is eliminated and he emerges at the top in confrontation and he does then I don't even have to say a word but am proven