Remembering the Presidential Election of 1965

Where did you explain HP's comments? The comments are there in black and white.

Your knowledge of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto is even less than your knowledge of Jinnah.

One can excuse you for being ignorant.

Re #203, I have not dodged a single question, especially the comments by HP which I explained for any 5 year old to understand, somehow this monkey (or to quote thinkingstorm, "red assed baboon") doesn't get it. Today, when the corridors of power are lined with immorality and deception, anyone who wants to do something for the people has to deceive to get to the top, no other way around it, you cannot be honest and straightforward and then reach the top to change things, short of a revolution you have to maneuver your way in, do adjustments and make deals with the devil and then strike at the correct time. Read ZAB's speeches to the UN, full of support for Africans in their toil and the poor masses around the globe. The only joke is that those that serve the elite like the MAJ get their ugly mug shot put on currency and those that serve the people get killed in the most barbaric way. This Ramazan, I pray to Allah that he bless the good deeds of the ZAB, his relentless efforts to inculcate consciousness in the poor suffering masses that are and were being distracted by those that abuse Islam in the name of Islam, and may Allah overlook his bad deeds. Let the lackeys of the colonials beware their days of deception are coming to an end...

More jokes from Masadi the high priest of the Church of the Raja of Larkana...

Despite Jinnah's blunder on the language issue Bengalis were willing to elect his sister for just being his sister. Mujeeb was one of the leading supporters. Bhutto would have never won a single seat in Bangladesh...

Bhutto was the regime's B-Team ... and is universally hated by Bengalis. Almost every Bangladeshi I have met considers Bhutto one of the main supporters of the military regime, which even HP considers him to be.

I concur with HP's opinion of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto in toto. For all Masadi's childish "HP-Masadi friendship for social justice" chants Masadi will remain a joke.

Masadi has dodged HP's conclusion that Bhutto had scant regard for morals or honesty. Instead he claims that Bhutto "empowered" the people. I have shown how the real empowerment was done by Fatima Jinnah ... Bhutto was merely a beneficiary who rode the tide of anti-Indian sentiment and later was built up - according to Rafi Raza- as an opposition to Mujeeb ur Rahman... the real truly elected Prime Minister of Pakistan. ZAB did not have a mandate. He was the product of military machination.


And that ZAB ran the country like a fascist is well known... no one can deny it

By the way, Long live the Masadi, HP friendship for social justice even though a-holes like Manto are hell bent on destroying it because they hate the ordinary people and worship the elite whose peon MAJ was

Manto writes "Zulfikar Ali Bhutto planned the Military operation in East Pakistan which led to a much more violent episode than partition "

ZAB was not chief of the military to have "planned" the military operation in East Pakistan. Not even the Bengalis and not even Mujib blamed him. He was the single reason the mistakes of MAJ and the resulting backlash on the Muslims did not reach fruitation with the Muslims of Pakistan entering the union as third rate citizens

Manto quoting HP "He showed scant regard for any moral, ethical, or political values."

I am sure that you have the little brains involved to see why such a judgment appears to be the case. ZAB had great "Moral, ethical and political" values when he raised consciousness in the people, when he brought economic issues that were keeping the people not only down but making them into animals and distorting their nature to the forefront, and he showed great political value when he made ethnicity, and theology that had been dominating Pakistani politics thanks to the MAJ, subordinate to bread and butter issues without provision of which no claimant to piety or leadership in Islam is ever valid.

Of course taken as a broad generalization this claim about ZAB is dead wrong but taken in its proper context of "gaining power", without which the bread and butter issues cannot be taken care of, the powers that be cannot be confronted and social structure cannot be restructured, they might well be true and for that I don't blame ZAB one single bit. Don't forget that Ibrahim was similarly guilty of destroying the idols of the idolators when they were not looking except the chief idol, and then lying to them that the "big one" of them did it....all for the purpose of showing them the errors of their ways, even though under normal circumstances such an act is outlawed in Islam- and was not sanctioned by God, and so would be deemed immoral by unthinking mullahs like yourself, comprendey? Probably not.

Manto showing his rat=piss brain copy pastes two pages worth of BS after saying "yawn" to my well thought out piece, showing us once again that he is incapable of putting two and two together and still relies on the age old, theological, ignorant method of relying on "authority" based knowledge".

He quotes "Bhutto’s FSF Director-General Masood Mahmood recalled, ‘The Prime Minister phoned me up to say,. Mian (Abbas) has done balls! Instead of killing Kasuri, he got his father!’” (Wolpert, p. 244) "

Reminds me of the kind of "evidence" that those who falsely convicted him of murder and got rid of him for political and imperial reasons would present and this recollection enters Wolpert's book- amazing huh? and this is termed scholarship and "evidence" and a JI lawyer quotes it and a military poodle judge laps it up like sweet milk from an ally's bowl. These stinking bast**** the sooner the country takes care of them the better, they are the enemy of the people of this nation and not only this nation but the entire "Third World". Not only that he has to copy my terms, "The Church of the MAJ and its high priest"- he is not even original in this, like an infant who is at the "monkey see monkey do" stage he calls me the high priest of the Church of ZAB. Sorry sob, and HP thinks this guy is gonna do anything for the people of this nation, no my friend, people like him should be spat at....

Manto,

Did read somewhere that ZAB threatened to kill the Leader of Opposition in the middle of NA session, right?

Regards

"checking how the Bengali Muslims were treated- no Hindu would have treated them worse than the Elite"

Yes... men like Bhutto (and his benefactors in uniform Ayub Khan and Yahya Khan) treated Bengalis with a contempt. So what if Mujeeb was legitimately elected Prime Minister of Pakistan... to Bhutto he was a frikkin' Bengali who did not deserve to the PM... only Bhutto did.

While Masadi keeps screaming about partition violence (587 000 by the most liberal estimate) which quite clearly had to do with Mountbatten who refused to deploy the boundary forces Zulfikar Ali Bhutto planned the Military operation in East Pakistan which led to a much more violent episode than partition ... and ZAB is taken off the hook for his very direct criminal role in the Bangladesh war.

Masadi is a hypocrite.

OK, 4 u Manto.

Aprt from two known times as mentioned by u, Jinnah cried another time at Howrah station soon after the meeting with Congress and Liberals at Calcutta.

He held the hand of his Parsi friend (he liked them since they are westernised & had good looking daughters) and said abt parting of ways btw him and the Congress.

As for:

'He wrote no autobiography or diary probably because he never had time to do so.'

Nope.

He never went to jail to find spare time to write something.

About Zulfikar Ali Bhutto... HP summed it up best in his article "If I am murdered... the ZAB saga":

"He was somewhat of an intriguer and to some a reincarnation of Machiavelli’s Prince. Bhutto had very little experience and understanding of how democracy worked. His unwavering ambition was to get to the top. Anything that came in the way was a hurdle to climb. He showed scant regard for any moral, ethical, or political values."

FALSE CHURCH OF THE RAJA OF LARKANA and its High Priest Masadi.



Zulfi-Rahim Effect
Very early in his presidentship, Bhutto made it known that even his old friends should not show any familiarity with him. In a cabinet meeting also attended by senior bureaucrats, when a member of his cabinet, who also happened to be an old friend, addressed him as “Zulfi”, he retorted in coarse graphic language, which cannot be reproduced here verbatim, but could be roughly paraphrased as: “If I have intimate relations with your wife it doesn’t mean that you should also be on intimate terms with me.” This was a clear message to Bhutto’s friends that they should not treat him as their friend but as their supreme boss. It is small wonder that some of his ministers started calling him “Aali Jah,” meaning “Your Exalted Highness.”
Another incident, one that sent shock waves to the ruling class was the criminal treatment of J.A. Rahim, the senior most cabinet member, by Bhutto and his thugs. Wolpert gives a graphic description of Rahim’s “brutal and tragic fall.”
Until 3 July 1974 he (J. A. Rahim) had been one of a handful of confidants, advisers, even ‘friends’ though some insisted that Zulfi had no friends, only followers, servants, or family. ... It was hardly surprising, therefore, that J.A. was one of a select group of cabinet ministers and important political advisers invited to dinner at the prime minister’s house on 2 July. The handsomely embossed invitation said 8:00 p.m. ... Rahim ... knew that Zulfi liked his guests to be punctual. ... (H)e showed up on time, as did all the others. But Bhutto was nowhere to be seen at eight, nor did he appear even so much as to show himself from the room “upstairs,” where he remained closeted on some “more important business,” at nine, ten, or eleven o’clock. (Wolpert, p. pp. 239 - 240)
Rahim, an old man, could not wait any longer and just before midnight, he got up and said, “Pakistan is becoming a rajwara (raja’s kingdom) and Mr Bhutto is its raja.” Then he left for home. According to J.A. Rahim,
About 1.0 a.m. ...(s)ome men of the FSF (Federal Security Force) were climbing up the front balcony for the purpose of entering my bedroom.... Said Ahmed Khan, Chief of the Prime Minister’s Security, who was at the head of that mob of armed FSF thugs, ... and several others rushed in ... armed with rifles or sub-machine guns. ... Besides being beaten by fists I was hit by rifle butts. I was thrown to the ground and hit while prostate. ... My son tried to intervene to protect me and was himself assaulted by FSF men.... I was dragged out by my legs, then thrown into a Jeep... bleeding profusely from a wound in the nose, the left nostril having been ripped open. No medical attention or first aid was offered. After nearly a couple of hours Mr. Rafi Raza arrived at the police station. (Quoted in Wolpert, p. 240)
Rafi Raza has also corroborated Rahim’s story. According to Raza, “(W)hen I got home I found that he and his son had been beaten up and taken to a nearby police station. I brought them back to their house after two in the morning and with difficulty, secured the help of a doctor.” (Raza, p. 300)
The criminal beating of J. A. Rahim, a highly respected minister, was according to Rafi Raza, “intended to serve as a lesson and to instill fear in others.” (Raza, p. 30) The obscene rejoinder to a minister, narrated earlier, and the physical assault on Rahim produced, what might be called the Zulfi-Rahim Effect. For ministers, PPP leaders, governors, and senior bureaucrats, who came in regular contact with Bhutto, the Zulfi-Rahim Effect became the guideline, making them live in fear and sapping any possibility of their giving him bold and honest advice.
When Jam Sadiq Ali, another Bhutto supporter and PPP leader became the victim of Bhutto’s wrath, he could have faced a worse fate than Rahim’s but for his personal connections at the right place at the right time. According to former Federal Security Force Director Masood Mahmood, Bhutto once told him, “ ‘Jam Sadiq Ali is a mouse. Can’t you find a cat to take care of him?’ Masood immediately informed his friend Jam Sadiq Ali, who flew from Karachi to London the next day.” (Wolpert, p. 309.)
One of Bhutto’s closest lieutenants, Ghulam Mustafa Khar, who was Governor and Chief Minister of Punjab stated in the Lahore High Court, that it was true that “when somebody showed political differences with Mr. Bhutto he used to be jailed and based on his personal likes and dislikes, revengeful action used to be taken against political opponents but sometimes he also showed tolerance” (quoted in Wolpert, p.309).
Rule by fear was applied to both friends and foes. It has been noted by Khalid B. Sayeed that during the session of the National Assembly in November 1975, when “the opposition members voiced their bitter opposition to the way the government was pushing through a constitutional amendment limiting dissent, the Federal Security Force was brought in and several protesting members were beaten and physically ejected from the assembly.” (Quoted in Khalid B. Sayeed, Politics in Pakistan: The Nature and Direction of Change, New York, Praeger, 1980, p. 107)
In November 1974, during a speech in the National Assembly, the Pathan opposition leader Wali Khan “repeated his ‘stale’ old phrase ‘Bhutto and Pakistan cannot coexist.’” (Wolpert, p. 243) This was a brave statement to make as Wali Khan had survived four assassination attempts.
According to an intelligence report reaching Bhutto, another opposition leader, Ahmad Raza Qasuri, had said on 27 October 1974 that “’the Prime Minister ... had broken Pakistan into pieces to install himself into power and that he was a traitor and son of a traitor.’” (Wolpert, pp.243-244). On the night of 9th November, Kasuri was going home in his car with his father, mother and aunt. On a dark road, his car came under attack with automatic gunfire from two directions. In the shooting, his father, Ahmad Khan Kasuri, who was sitting next to him, was fatally wounded, “his shirt and seat soaked with blood.”

Wolpert writes,
In his First Information Report (FIR) Ahmad Raza told them (the police) exactly what he could remember ... and when they asked if he had any idea of who the perpetrator might be, he answered without a moment’s hesitation, ‘Zulfikar Ali Bhutto!’ That was the name he repeated and insisted upon having recorded in the FIR.... (N)o amount of pressure, advice, subtle warnings, or reasoning could move him to retract one jot of the FIR accusation. (Wolpert, p.244)
Wolpert adds, ”When Kasuri’s father was killed, Bhutto’s FSF Director-General Masood Mahmood recalled, ‘The Prime Minister phoned me up to say,. Mian (Abbas) has done balls! Instead of killing Kasuri, he got his father!’” (Wolpert, p. 244)

FALSE CHURCH OF THE RAJA OF LARKANA and its High Priest Masadi.



Zulfi-Rahim Effect
Very early in his presidentship, Bhutto made it known that even his old friends should not show any familiarity with him. In a cabinet meeting also attended by senior bureaucrats, when a member of his cabinet, who also happened to be an old friend, addressed him as “Zulfi”, he retorted in coarse graphic language, which cannot be reproduced here verbatim, but could be roughly paraphrased as: “If I have intimate relations with your wife it doesn’t mean that you should also be on intimate terms with me.” This was a clear message to Bhutto’s friends that they should not treat him as their friend but as their supreme boss. It is small wonder that some of his ministers started calling him “Aali Jah,” meaning “Your Exalted Highness.”
Another incident, one that sent shock waves to the ruling class was the criminal treatment of J.A. Rahim, the senior most cabinet member, by Bhutto and his thugs. Wolpert gives a graphic description of Rahim’s “brutal and tragic fall.”
Until 3 July 1974 he (J. A. Rahim) had been one of a handful of confidants, advisers, even ‘friends’ though some insisted that Zulfi had no friends, only followers, servants, or family. ... It was hardly surprising, therefore, that J.A. was one of a select group of cabinet ministers and important political advisers invited to dinner at the prime minister’s house on 2 July. The handsomely embossed invitation said 8:00 p.m. ... Rahim ... knew that Zulfi liked his guests to be punctual. ... (H)e showed up on time, as did all the others. But Bhutto was nowhere to be seen at eight, nor did he appear even so much as to show himself from the room “upstairs,” where he remained closeted on some “more important business,” at nine, ten, or eleven o’clock. (Wolpert, p. pp. 239 - 240)
Rahim, an old man, could not wait any longer and just before midnight, he got up and said, “Pakistan is becoming a rajwara (raja’s kingdom) and Mr Bhutto is its raja.” Then he left for home. According to J.A. Rahim,
About 1.0 a.m. ...(s)ome men of the FSF (Federal Security Force) were climbing up the front balcony for the purpose of entering my bedroom.... Said Ahmed Khan, Chief of the Prime Minister’s Security, who was at the head of that mob of armed FSF thugs, ... and several others rushed in ... armed with rifles or sub-machine guns. ... Besides being beaten by fists I was hit by rifle butts. I was thrown to the ground and hit while prostate. ... My son tried to intervene to protect me and was himself assaulted by FSF men.... I was dragged out by my legs, then thrown into a Jeep... bleeding profusely from a wound in the nose, the left nostril having been ripped open. No medical attention or first aid was offered. After nearly a couple of hours Mr. Rafi Raza arrived at the police station. (Quoted in Wolpert, p. 240)
Rafi Raza has also corroborated Rahim’s story. According to Raza, “(W)hen I got home I found that he and his son had been beaten up and taken to a nearby police station. I brought them back to their house after two in the morning and with difficulty, secured the help of a doctor.” (Raza, p. 300)
The criminal beating of J. A. Rahim, a highly respected minister, was according to Rafi Raza, “intended to serve as a lesson and to instill fear in others.” (Raza, p. 30) The obscene rejoinder to a minister, narrated earlier, and the physical assault on Rahim produced, what might be called the Zulfi-Rahim Effect. For ministers, PPP leaders, governors, and senior bureaucrats, who came in regular contact with Bhutto, the Zulfi-Rahim Effect became the guideline, making them live in fear and sapping any possibility of their giving him bold and honest advice.
When Jam Sadiq Ali, another Bhutto supporter and PPP leader became the victim of Bhutto’s wrath, he could have faced a worse fate than Rahim’s but for his personal connections at the right place at the right time. According to former Federal Security Force Director Masood Mahmood, Bhutto once told him, “ ‘Jam Sadiq Ali is a mouse. Can’t you find a cat to take care of him?’ Masood immediately informed his friend Jam Sadiq Ali, who flew from Karachi to London the next day.” (Wolpert, p. 309.)
One of Bhutto’s closest lieutenants, Ghulam Mustafa Khar, who was Governor and Chief Minister of Punjab stated in the Lahore High Court, that it was true that “when somebody showed political differences with Mr. Bhutto he used to be jailed and based on his personal likes and dislikes, revengeful action used to be taken against political opponents but sometimes he also showed tolerance” (quoted in Wolpert, p.309).
Rule by fear was applied to both friends and foes. It has been noted by Khalid B. Sayeed that during the session of the National Assembly in November 1975, when “the opposition members voiced their bitter opposition to the way the government was pushing through a constitutional amendment limiting dissent, the Federal Security Force was brought in and several protesting members were beaten and physically ejected from the assembly.” (Quoted in Khalid B. Sayeed, Politics in Pakistan: The Nature and Direction of Change, New York, Praeger, 1980, p. 107)
In November 1974, during a speech in the National Assembly, the Pathan opposition leader Wali Khan “repeated his ‘stale’ old phrase ‘Bhutto and Pakistan cannot coexist.’” (Wolpert, p. 243) This was a brave statement to make as Wali Khan had survived four assassination attempts.
According to an intelligence report reaching Bhutto, another opposition leader, Ahmad Raza Qasuri, had said on 27 October 1974 that “’the Prime Minister ... had broken Pakistan into pieces to install himself into power and that he was a traitor and son of a traitor.’” (Wolpert, pp.243-244). On the night of 9th November, Kasuri was going home in his car with his father, mother and aunt. On a dark road, his car came under attack with automatic gunfire from two directions. In the shooting, his father, Ahmad Khan Kasuri, who was sitting next to him, was fatally wounded, “his shirt and seat soaked with blood.”

Wolpert writes,
In his First Information Report (FIR) Ahmad Raza told them (the police) exactly what he could remember ... and when they asked if he had any idea of who the perpetrator might be, he answered without a moment’s hesitation, ‘Zulfikar Ali Bhutto!’ That was the name he repeated and insisted upon having recorded in the FIR.... (N)o amount of pressure, advice, subtle warnings, or reasoning could move him to retract one jot of the FIR accusation. (Wolpert, p.244)
Wolpert adds, ”When Kasuri’s father was killed, Bhutto’s FSF Director-General Masood Mahmood recalled, ‘The Prime Minister phoned me up to say,. Mian (Abbas) has done balls! Instead of killing Kasuri, he got his father!’” (Wolpert, p. 244)

"credits it to someone else"

Yes "someone else" called J A Rahim... the real founder of Pakistan People's Party... the author of its manifesto.. a true socialist ... and an honest man that Bhutto never could be.

J A Rahim who was dragged out of his house by fascist Bhutto's fascist security force (FSF) in the middle of the night and beaten to pulp.

J A Rahim whose departure marked the end of ZAB's opportunist alliance with the Left.

J A Rahim whose departure marked the end of Bhutto's sordid 5 years in power.

To the dismay of some MAJ is not only the most enduring cultural heritage but beats hands down the false churches of feudals like the Raja of Larkana anyday.


http://pakistaniat.com/2007/09/10/a-look-at-the-personal-life-of-jinnah-ru ttie-jinnahs-last-letter-to-her-husband/

Last week, while surfing though flickr, I came across a wonderful collection of mostly black & white photos by Dr. Ghulam Nabi Kazi. His collection has a major section Plain Mr. Jinnah dedicated to Quaid-i-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah’s rare photographs and some of his personal letters that not many people have ever read. Dr. Kazi is doing a great service by preserving all those historic photographs and letters for us and uploading them on flickr for public viewing. The one that I found most interesting, and which made me write this post, was the last letter written by Ruttenbai “Ruttie” Petit to her husband “J”, as she used to call him. Ruttie was given an Islamic name Mariam when she converted to Islam and married Jinnah in 1918. Ruttie originally wrote this letter in Paris on October 5, 1928 but re-wrote it in Marseilles and posted it from there. The letter is beautifully written and gives you some idea of marriage and personal life of Jinnah. For ATP reader’s interest, a typed text of the letter has also been included in this post.



S. S. Rajputana,
Marseilles 5 Oct 1928

Darling thank you for all you have done. If ever in my bearing your once tuned senses found any irritability or unkindness, be assured that in my heart there was place only for a great tenderness and a greater pain -a pain my love without hurt. When one has been as near to the reality of Life (which after all is Death) as I have been dearest, one only remembers the beautiful and tender moments and all the rest becomes a half veiled mist of unrealities. Try and remember me beloved as the flower you plucked and not the flower you tread upon.

I have suffered much sweetheart because I have loved much. The measure of my agony has been in accord to the measure of my love.

Darling I love you, I love you - and had I loved you just a little less I might have remained with you only after one has created a very beautiful blossom one does not drag it through the mire. The higher you set your ideal the lower it falls.

I have loved you my darling as it is given to few men to be loved. I only beseech you that the tragedy which commenced in love should also end with it.

Darling Goodnight and Goodbye

Ruttie

I had written to you at Paris with the intention of posting the letter here but I felt that I would rather write to you afresh from the fullness of my heart. R.



Even today, not much is known about Jinnah’s personal life although a great deal has been written about his vision, politics and his role as a founder of nation. Like how many of you know that when he was a law student in London, he regularly did theatre and seriously considered acting as a profession. There are many reasons that not much is known about his life other than politics and Pakistan movement. He wrote little, and what he wrote was formal and a matter of fact. He wrote no autobiography or diary probably because he never had time to do so. He was reserved, taciturn and secretive. He wrote his will in May, 1939, but it was after his death that Liaqat Ali Khan, his close associate and first Prime Minister of Pakistan, came to know that he was its trustee and executor. ATP readers can take a look at Jinnah’s will here and I can tell you that many of you will find it very interesting. Although Prof. Akbar Ahmed’s movie Jinnah tried, to some extent, throw some light on Jinnah’s personal life but 15-20 minutes is no where near enough. His marriage with the most beautiful girl of Bombay - Ruttie: The Flower of Bombay - was like a fairy tale. A separate movie can be made on Jinnah’s pre 1940 life and I can assure you, if made properly, it will do serious business.

Dina Wadia (Jinnah’s daughter) has hardly spoken about her father in public. I know of a few books which are specifically about the personal life of Ruttie Jinnah and her relationship with her husband. These books give us some insight of Jinnah’s personal life. One of them is Ruttie Jinnah: The Story, Told and Untold by Khwaja Razi Haider. The book was originally published in Urdu but later Khwaja Sahab also translated it into English for the international audience. M C Chagla’s book, ‘Roses in December‘ also had a few chapters about Jinnah and Ruttie Jinnah. Chagla knew the couple very well as he assisted Jinnah at his chambers during those days and he later became Chief Justice of Bombay High Court and then an Indian diplomat at UN. He idealized Jinnah but severed all ties when he began working on the idea of independent state for Muslims. The book is also interesting because it help you understand a different viewpoint shared by many Muslims in India too. Chagla writes about Ruttie and Jinnah:

By 1927, Ruttie and Jinnah had virtually separated. Ruttie’s health deteriorated rapidly in the years after they returned from their final trip together. Ruttie lived at the Taj Hotel in Bombay, almost a recluse as she became more and more bed-ridden.Kanji continued to be her constant companion. By February 18, 1929 she had become so weak that all she could manage to say to him was a request to look after her cats.

Two days later, Ruttie Petit Jinnah died. It was her 29th birthday.

She was buried on February 22 in Bombay according to Muslim rites. Jinnah sat like a statue throughout the funeral but when asked to throw earth on the grave, he broke down and wept. That was the only time when I found Jinnah betraying some shadow of human weakness. It’s not a well publicised fact that as a young student in England it had been one of Jinnah’s dreams to play Romeo at The Globe. It is a strange twist of fate that a love story that started like a fairy tale ended as a haunting tragedy to rival any of Shakespeare’s dramas.”

But the one I found more detailed is the book Ruttie Jinnah: The story of a great friendship written by Ruttie’s closest friend Kanji Dwarkadas who was also looking after her when she fell seriously ill during her last days.Jinnah was a very private person and he hardly showed emotions but he is known to have cried twice in public. One of the occasion was the funeral of his beloved wife Ruttie in 1929 and the other one in August 1947, when he visited her grave one last time before leaving for Pakistan. Jinnah left India in August 1947, never to return again, but he left behind a piece of his heart in a little grave in a cemetery in Bombay

http://pakistaniat.com/2007/09/11/wolperts-jinnah/

Wolpert’s Jinnah
Posted on September 11, 2007
Filed Under Salim Chowdhrey, People
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Total Views: 369 Gues Post by Salim Chowdhrey

It was late summer in 1984 or 1985. I received a surprise call from a friend in Pakistan. We had been friends since kindergarten but our destiny had carried us on different trajectories. However, to date we have managed to keep abreast of what is going on in eachother’s lives. When my friend called me he said that he was in New Jersey, USA. He said he was sent here from the then President Zia-ul-Haq. I was very impressed that he was sent here by the President and conveyed my thoughts to him. He gloomily said that that he may not be able to meet the goal of his visit.

Zia came to the dinner that evening. No not the President Zia-ul-Haq but Zia Hussain my childhood friend. In our conversation that evening he shared that he was the General Manager of Oxford University Press (Pakistan) - a Publishing house in Karachi. Their parent company in New York had published the biography of the Father of the Nation titled as Jinnah of Pakistan. Though the book was full of unvarnished facts, it was also scholarly honest and unbiased. Most of all; the image of Jinnah that came through the book was of a once in a century hero- much like George Washington of the US.


Amazingly enough the book got banned in Pakistan. President Zia-ul-Haq, on the other hand, not only wanted the book be published, but he also wanted it to be the core of all undergraduate studies in the Universities across Pakistan. In his mind President Zia could not smudge Jinnah Sahib’s image. So the mention of Jinnah Sahib ’s indulgence with whiskey and eating forbidden flesh was unacceptable to him. It had to be excluded from the book. This was Zia Hussain’s mission. He had to convince Mr. Stanley Wolpert to expunge a part of Mr. Jinnah’s Life, in order to make him a “True Hero”.

Zia Hussain’s mission failed. Wolpert didn’t even feel the need to meet Mr. Hussain. His publisher Oxford University Press and Zia Hussain were told firmly and politely (which was his style as I later found out) that the book was written to document the life of a Great Man. A part of President Zia’s message contained the temptation of selling millions of copies in Pakistan as it was proposed to be part of a perpetual curriculum of all the Universities in Pakistan. Mr. Wolpert alluded that having written many books, text and otherwise; and being a Professor at Stanford University (He is now Professor Emeritus there), he was financially more than secure and riches were not his goal.

Years later Mr. Wolpert came to Asia Society in New York City, to introduce his book Zulfi Bhutto of Pakistan. I had the good fortune to meet him. He had flown in from California; and had directly arrived at the Asia Society. It was dinner time. A few friends and I invited him for dinner. He graciously accepted. We instantly arranged for a catered Pakistani meal at Tariq Malik’s place. We spent five unforgettable and precious hours with Mr. Wolpert. In an informal setting one could see that he himself is a great man. No pretensions, but very proper, gentlemanly, polite and firm. We talked about ZAB, Nehru and Gandhi. He has since then written books about all of them. He was respectful talking of his subjects but there was a special respect for the Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah. In the conversation, many time he called him Mr. Jinnah. He said that no one suggested to him to write about Jinnah Sahib. It was his own admiration that led him to research and write about this remarkable hero. I was left wondering whether great historians have heroes too? And heroes from far off lands?

About the Author: Salim Chowdhrey M.D. is a Clinical Associate Professor at UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School and an Attending at St Barnabas Medical Center. He practices Psychiatry in Livingston. NJ


....

Now Mian Masadi can go on lying about the figures, make up lies and try and reinvent ZAB as some sort of a figure her was not... but people of Pakistan are quite clear as to whose memory endures.

Masadi,

Yawn. May God help you in your condition.

Sorry fellows, I was away for a couple of days. In the mean time, Manto, trying to revive the dead Church of the MAJ writes:

"Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was worse than Jamaat-e-Islami people. Atleast Jamaat-e-Islami people operate without a mask. ZAB claimed to be a modern liberal Pakistani patriot ... and did exactly the opposite"

You know that this is BS. The JI, and religion was being used by his political opponents who had been coopted by the "external power", in order to punish the guy and his people's agenda and independant foreign policy. Being a smart man, smarter than this high priest of MAJ by a long shot, tried to check that higher power and the only way he could do it were the above adjustments, for which in the dirty politics of the "Third World", I certainly do not blame him, come the right time he would have done the right thing, these adjustments were effective therefore the need for direct naked military action by the Zia ul Fcuk.

Regarding Tashkent, that is more BS by this little rat, Manto. Tashkent put Bhutto in the media and the public's eye but was not responsible for his mass appeal and support. Were he to end his "campaign" there he would have failed miserably, you don't have to be an Einstein to know that, and in his own words he had a commitment and interest in a socialized economy from his US school days, as the only solution to the economic woes of Pakistan. So on the one hand this hypocrite criticizes him for bankrupting the economy when he wants to please the capitalists and on the other hand when he wants to take the benefits of socialism away from him he credits someone else for them. This is the true portrait of a lying hypocrite with moth eaten morals like his "god" the MAJ, may the curse of Allah be on him for
i) Fragmenting Muslim political power in India
ii) Using Muslims as scapegoats and killing around a million
of them
iii) Invoking religious hatred and separation even though the damn fool was no Muslim
iv) Destroying the very inception of democracy in this country by installing himself as a dictator on behalf of the colonials
v) Revealing the hypocritical nature of his separate homeland for the Muslims shenanigans by not checking how the Bengali Muslims were treated- no Hindu would have treated them worse than the Elite for whom MAJ fought his battles.

The case is closed, the Church of MAJ is dead, its hight priest is on the run (on a motorcycle) like Mullah Omar, and the process of de-Jinafication (like the de-Bathification) of Pakistan has begun. New currency with the image of ZAB on the Rs.5000 note will soon be made available by the State Bank.

Over the dead body of this Supreme Court, politically dead Musharraf, will be 're-elected' the President by this dying National Assembly.

Benazir if she has an iota of shame left in her -- might as well stay in Dubai -- because part of this mess is created by her.

Nasah sahib,

(The reptile is hell-bent on blackening the pretty face of Benazir)

If BB chooses to sign a deal with a heavily discredited Mush, whose fault wud it be- Mush's or BB's?

Regards

Good News -- since Andaman and Nicobar are in Indian hands -- the Sordid Saudia has a agreed to become the new "Kala Pani" for the undesirable bananas of the great Banana Republic -- of Mush the Ruffian.

A revised rejoinder post Nawaz re-exile:

Musharraf is hell-bent on casting Pakistan into an insult even to a banana republic -- the uncivil control-freak has destroyed every civil institution of Pakistan just to keep his sinking ship of personal power afloat -- by any and every illegal means.

The reptile is hell-bent on blackening the pretty face of Benazir if she agrees to have any humiliating 'deal' with this political leper -- who has just now started yet another nauseating confrontation with the FULL bench of Supreme Court judges –- one more time.

Even after 8 disgusting years of absolute power the crazy control freak is still hungry for another 5 years of ugly illegal stint.

Musharraf is surely a sick man of the subcontinent. He needs to be institutionalized in the psychiatric ward of the GHQ Hospital with his arms strapped behind his back and a duct tape over his forked tongue mouth.

When this man is going to QUIT, good grief. It's just like “Hazrat-e Daagh jahaaN baith gaye baith gaye......laakh jootay paRay uththay nu magar ainth gaye.

Re: # 183 Posted by jayp on September 11, 2007 12:54:44 am

Jayp,

What makes you suggest that ahmedmadani is an educated Pakistani? Murder is always a murder.

Unfortunately, there are some people like madani in Pakistan, who let their emotions do the writing.

Madani,

I am sadened to see your post. You believe that making murder not a crime against the state as in pakistan is a good thing. You said it like a true educated pakistani, refusing to accept the reality, justifyinmg teh murder of samia sarwar and the reception given by mushy to his parents within 100 days of taking office for upholding teh sharia idea of murder.

madani, it is sad to see pakistnis one after the other supporting the idea that murder is not a crime. It is pathetic.

Re: # 168 Mr Jayp all this sad demise of people by unnatural way and nobody can justify that.
People who have lived in NY city when visit here say ny city has even danderous areas than dangerous areas of Karachi. Many people are killed there and even police are afraid to go to help people , they use armerd cars to retrive dead bodies. Here also most people are killed ( say 75%) are involved in criminal activities like Sharab, drugs, and gangs driving motor bikes to kill people and take away cell phones, prostitution and AK and Pakitani speciality of TT pistuls ( I do not think those are common in India) and this fatricide can not be prevented as crime is part of life and there is lots of money. Where ever is big money there prunig od people from top bosses. You look caefully in big city account of dead people must be same in India, bombay, delhi and london, newyok , tokiyo except Benging

Ha ha... like I said - HP, Hubris Personified, is simply mad at himself for being so stupid... the same jihadis who he was ready to unleash on others are now snapping at his heels... in his rage, he is lashing out at others who have nothing to do with his predicament...

It's only matter of time when zee will be chasing after him with his portable guillotine... :)

#179 Posted by HP on September 10, 2007 7:22:23 am

Why cant u give names, Hijra?

#167 Posted by zeemax
“So, are you saying the Corps Commander Peshawar (read musharraf) embraced "a known criminal and smuggler"?”

Throughout the history of Pakistan, the Pak army has been known to work with criminals. In fact, Pakistani constitution has very clearly recommended a punishment for the Pakistan army’s criminal acts.
You level of arguments does not go above the level of the idiots from India like the one loudmouth low-level IQ #177.

These Havyoons and Mala’oons are against the state of Pakistan.

For the other known idiot... what difference does it make how he died?

Manto,

Yes Folio was opned for my girl friend. We used the same computer and lived in one room.

Much as u use ur aisha_sarwari ID sometimes on UP, I used that ID as & when required. Now we broke-up & I use the ID Folio.

Kaapish?

Re: # 174 zee

HP is mad at you jihadis... you jihadis have grown too big for your boots... he wants cut you guys down - he is the enemy of jihad...

A while ago - you wanted my suggestion for your list for guillotines... Add HP to your list :)

HP is p!ssed because he has fallen into the hole he had dug for others, metaphorically speaking... Not long ago - he was advocating promotion of jihad to "mainland" india - he was almost 0rgasmic when couple of bombs went off in delhi...

But now jihad has spread across "mainland" pakiland... jihadis from tribal areas have struck at the heart of slamabad and elsewhere and their influence is spreading deep and far - in more ways than one...

So he is p!ssed... he is getting a taste of his own medicine...:)

Re: # 164
[.... Its problem of european nations. They do not give equal treatment so injustice gives rise to terrorist. .. NO JUSTCE NO PEACE. ...]

Mad-ani, in his own meandering ways, makes a point - in a back-handed manner...:) let me explain -

this is exactly what the good-two-shoes europeans [brits particularly] used to do when india was battling jihadis forces in kashmir - they used to accuse india of human-right violation, denying justice and what not... with no thought for how much india has actually done for kashmir and how complex the fight is against jihadis....

Now the shoe is on their foot... with all the welfare and opportunities they have given these paki/muslim hordes, europeans are still being accused of "denying justice"... and that pretext is being used for terror across the lands...

Mad-ani and his fello-pakis have turned the table on europeans - they even have recruited native whites into their campaign of terror... smart move pakis... :)...

171 Posted by VRV,

That's correct. His location was pinpointed on the ground by Pak army and the predator was called in.

I too am quite disappointed with HP. He seems drunk most of the time these days.

PS: then again "Folio" was initially VRV's girlfriend and then later VRV himself became Folio.

VRV you keep claiming this but you've never been able to point out a single one of my alleged "lies" to date... though I have caught you red handed like a million times under this avtar as well as "Folio".

But then again honesty is not considered a virtue with people like you.

I expect Manto to lie habitually but not HP.

"Nek Mohammed......., who cares if the army shot him."

I think it's hellfire missile from Predator that killed him.

Yes. Nawaz Sharif was secretly a Mormon. That is why he was deported.

You are brilliant JAYP.

Finally Nawaz is back to the saudis. All those the ilks of YLH who celebrated the new judicial activism, have no word. The pathetic corrupt court declares that as pak citizen, nawaz can come to pakistan, and the general says, no he has to leave.

Now let us see what the pathetic court will say. There are no laws, no guiding priciples, it is only greed and teh hatred of other religions that is guiding pakistan, the ideology of TNT.

No body dares to talk about the courts now and the new light at the end of the tunnel

Terrorism and pakistan

Hidden in the news item of jang today is the jihadic killings of a single city of karachi in pakistan. In their is the number, 17 bodies were recovered, these are the ones no one dares to make a complaint against, the jihadic killings, no crime is comitted because murder is not a crime against teh state. In any other country, teh discovery of a dead body is investigated by poilce , not in pakistan, even when it is a samia sarwar killed in the office of asma jahangir.

It is thsi culturte where murder is routine that creates the jihadis, and even when they move to UK or germany, the notion that killing is fine stays with the pakistanis. This desensitisation takes place early with the ritual killings of goats in teh backyards.


83 persons lost their lives last week
Monday, September 10, 2007
By Kamran Mansoor

Karachi

At least 83 persons lost their lives during the last week, of whom 14 were shot dead, 15 were murdered, four committed suicide, five were burnt to death, three drowned, 17 bodies were recovered while 25 were killed in different accidents.

At least 1,470 robberies were committed during the last week, of which 1,135 were mobile phones snatching or stolen cases.

#143 Posted by HP,

Nek Mohammed was a known criminal and smuggler, who cares if the army shot him.

I'm glad you didn't dispute that the Corps Commander Peshawar made a peace deal with him and actually embraced him, not even counting the release of not only all his men held by the army, but also all the seized weapons and vehicles.

So, are you saying the Corps Commander Peshawar (read musharraf) embraced "a known criminal and smuggler"?

Bhai HP, aap ney zyada to aaj pi li ho gi, but really .... it doesn't behove you to indulge in such inanities as you have been doing for over a week now ... C'mon Saeen .... :)

#164 Posted by ahmedmadani on September 9, 2007 5:59:40 pm

Right...it has nothing to do with pureland being the fountainhead of islamic terrorism...

Did you read the article about the UN report saying 80% of islamic terrorist suicide bombers in afghanistan come from pakistan..pure coincidence, I'm sure...nothing to do with the vast IT infrastructure in pureland...I'm sure...

Re: # 146I don't know him personally, but I believe he created a tiny party of his own after quitting Asghar Khans party (if we aare talking about the same person!)

Re: # 163 Those are german born and bred terrorists. Nothing to do with Pakistan. Its problem of european nations. They do not give equal treatment so injustice gives rise to terrorist. As you know there principle of NO JUSTCE NO PEACE. French have , british, usa and all west have same problem of denying equal rights.
No problem here its EUROPEAN PROBLEM.

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Re: # 152 Arjun shut up.
I had given challenge work on that do not show child behavioue. When a Tiger is caged in zoo , women and children throw stones and pinch him with sticks. But tiger is tiger even if caged and stupid children throwing stones as just stupid children like you. Forget history look for present and future, Miserable Arjun man. Can not take my challenge

Re: # 144 I second your thinking.
But enemies should remember this time resistance will be quite different than 1971 as this is near the heartland of Pakistan. Those who go for spliting will learn lesson as troublesome Sardar bugti learnt ( General had warned earlier terrorist will not understood from where strike came)

ylh: One need not support Nawaz Sharif to oppose dictatorship in Pakistan. MQM demonstrated on May 12 where it stood. MMA, having tried to make deals with the dictator, has switched sides with PPP. Even PML (N) set the stage for musharraf to take over in the first place by introducing its own form of dictatorship under a bloody mard-e-momin.

Only the Chief Justice stands out in this sorry group as being in it for a bigger cause than coming to power. And Pakistanis who provided the popular support to the CJ deserve a better set of leaders than this sorry lot.

The Pakistani establishment is now hell bent on making Nawaz Sharif into a true Mahatma (just like the British once upon a time turned a loyal recruiter dog into a true Mahatma) by closing down Islamabad and making us all feel like something is happening...

Entire Nawaz Party leadership is now behind bars... scenes on TV of fat maja sajas who populate the Nawaz Party offering themselves for arrest are sick to say the least...

My conclusion: Pakistani Military Establishment is playing a double game with that foolish feudal Benazir Bhutto ... all the while making Nawaz Sharif into another Zulfikar Ali Bhutto.

I'd say that atleast Bhutto- being a Jinnah-admirer if not follower in deed- was not a racist like Gandhi... that is definitely a plus. This makes Bhutto stand head and shoulders above Gandhi.

PS to BJKumar ,

May I also suggest that the followers of someone like racist casteist hindu fascist bigot Gandhi who believed black people were subhuman, Indians were of superior "Indo-germanic stock", caste was the natural organisation of humanity and then women ought to stay indoors have no locus standi claiming other movements to b racist.

PS: And Bhutto became popular with the masses because of his hysterical anti-India behavior in Tashkent which he capitalised on later...

Bhutto became popular first and then was coopted by better more reasonable people like J A Rahim for a socialist agenda... As for Bhutto himself... he just wanted power so that he could be the Islamic or a Third World Napoleon.

"case is closed" ... "church of maj is routed"...

Is it just me or does Masadi remind us of the Black Knight from "Monty Python's Holy Grail"?

Ask Professor Ghafoor Ahmed of JI today and he thinks Zulfikar Ali Bhutto is a great hero.... why... because not only did this fascist feudal make Islam the state religion of Pakistan but actually legislated to make a Muslim sect a Non-Muslim sect.

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was worse than Jamaat-e-Islami people. Atleast Jamaat-e-Islami people operate without a mask. ZAB claimed to be a modern liberal Pakistani patriot ... and did exactly the opposite. Not only that but Bhutto was left's biggest persecuter in his regime...

As for his comparison with Fatima Jinnah... there is no comparison. FJ was not a dishonest crook and a feudal fascist... Bhutto was. FJ symbolised Jinnah's vision of a democratic Pakistan. Yes she supported because she was Jinnah's sister.... but why would Wali Khan etc support him...

Wali Khan and his father were against the creation of Pakistan and hence had nothing to do with the "cultural recognition of Mahomed Ali Jinnah"... they supported Fatima Jinnah because they supported the ideal of a democratic federal Pakistan.

Re: # 124

BJkumar,

That is akin to a white person from down south declaring that affirmative action for black people is tantamount to black racism against white people.

You ought to be more logical. Pakistan movement was about a permanent minority telling an extremely virulent and bigoted permanent majority to take a hike.

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left right left right...surrender..

surrender monkeys lined up to drop their pants...allah-o-akbar..we'll fight to the last man for our 72 virgins....NOT..

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Re: # 144 Posted by HP on September 9, 2007 12:48:57 am

What state? Who is in today's state of Pakistan? What mind set do these people have? The same rubbish authoritarian self-aggrandizing people are using new words of 2007. Can this institution called the state of Pakistan ever be revamped?

Lets start peeling the whole state apparatus and look deep inside it, and you will find nothing else but ego-centric bureaucrats and corrupt people, as individuals and as a group of people. Their haughtiness is known to everyone.

When ordinary people in Pakistan say that people in government are corrupt, they usually mean the state apparatus. And who made these self-promoters of their own vested interest guardian of our national destiny. Why do we have retired generals in every nook and corner of Pakistan’s economy?

You must look at Pakistan’s national identity and the path it took to this malaise some 50 years ago. This is Pakistan’s music that was written some 50 years ago, and all the guilty players are working towards the finality of this nation.

If pak army is refusing to finght the tribals, all the more reason for benazir to come back. She can get the release of the paki army, declare the NWFP as an independent country and the nato will take care of the taliban there.

That is very good scenario for pakistan and the world, and will be in the true traditions of the bhuttos

#136 Posted by Zakkk

"Afrasiab Khattak has become the NWFP provincial head of the ANP."

I know. I met him briefly five years ago when he was still the Chairman of the Human rights commission in Pakistan. Last I heard, he was in Washington some six or more months ago introducing Asfandyar Khan to the State department officials.

Do you by any chance know Mukhtar Bacha? Have any idea what is he doing nowadays?

#143

"So the Nek Mohammed’s assignation"

So the Nek Mohammed’s assassination!

#138 Posted by bubba

Convoluted way?

I agree that the problem is complex. And the complexity stems from its being a multi-dimensional issue but when you start peeling the layers, you get to the bottom of the issue. And the bottom line in this issue is the present situation. Not what happened twenty years ago or not what happened 60 years ago. Presently, their fight is against the Pak state. They are not fighting the US nor do they plan to do that. The game is to create enough havoc in Pakistan to turn the central government and the state machinery in to an inoperable unit thus allowing these Havyoons to take control of the certain areas of Pakistan and declare independence.

I can guarantee you that once they get their separate area; they will compromise with the US probably, for some royalty money from the Pipeline and allowing them to turn that area in to Columbia of the Middle East.

#141 Posted by zeemax
“acting as Pakistan's unpaid volunteer army on the North Western Border against a hostile Zahir Shah regime till his downfall”

Zeemax, I am afraid as long as you are going to rely on Jang and Jassarat for history, you will never make a presentable argument. Hostile Zahir Shah? The guy used to sh*t in his pants when he even heard of Pakistani COAS touring Torkham. During the 1965 war, he came under enormous pressure from the Afghan nationalists -some say with some prod from India- to attack Pakistan. He resisted that pressure.

Bhutto yelled at Daud from Peshawar and Daud’s whole coup against Zahir Shah petered out in public opening the way for the Purcham party to take over the reigns and setting in motion events that we are still being penalized for.

“On the other hand, the Corp commander (read musharraf) Peshawar embraces Nek Muhammad in a peace deal and then assassinates him in a helicopter strike;”

So the Nek Mohammed’s assignation is enough reason to destroy Pakistan? What kind of yours and theirs patriotism is that? Nek Mohammed was a known criminal and smuggler, who cares if the army shot him. Was he bigger than the state?

These Mala’oon. Havyoons and nanhinjaroons are the enemy of the state. It pains me to see the Pak army attacking Pakistani but clearly these Havyoons are not Pakistani and their goal is to create another state out of Pakistan.

You still have not shown me one good reason for their fight against the state.

“If they want, they can turn ALL your cities into Baghdad with bombings - blowing up bazaars and shopping malls.”

Excuse me! Only a criminal mind can say a thing like this. So they will kill innocent people indiscriminately, if their demand to have another state outside of Pakistan is not met? Fking criminals!

Fact check for the contemptible monkeys who are jumping up and down over the 300 missing Pak soldiers and quoting a figure of 90,000 in 1971.

1) The 300 (plus a few dozen later including officers upto the ranks of Colonels) switched sides over to the tribes. Pak army is refusing to fight in Waziristan, therefore the reliance on Helicopter gunships.

2) The surrendering Pak army in 1971 was 30,000. The rest 60,000 were civilian POWs. The 30,000 Pak army had their logistics cut-off by the Muktis and requests for air support and troop airlifts from GHQ in W. Pakistan went unanswered. Further, USA betrayed Pak in promising to intervene through the sixth fleet and reneged. The only choice for Niazi was to either place his 30,000 men against impossible odds, or to negotiate a surrender on 'HIS' terms, which he successfully did, thereby saving the lives of W. Pak civilians in the process.

If the Pak army had fought on, the 30,000 would have been defeated and then the 60,000 civilians would have all been slaughtered.

As it happened, ultimately all 90,000 i.e. army plus civilians, were repatriated honourably within two years with not a single of them killed or even charged under any war laws.

The surrender was a retreat decision, not a shooting war defeat because none took place other then border skirmishes. Whatever could be salvaged from the political debacle and the Indian incursion, was salvaged to fight another day.

#134 Posted by HP

“These Islamists are not against the State of Pakistan. They are in fact its biggest patriots.”Duh! I know the definition of patriotism can be pretty extended but what makes them patriots?

Wresting Azad Kashmir for Pakistan in 1948; acting as Pakistan's unpaid volunteer army on the North Western Border against a hostile Zahir Shah regime till his downfall and thus freeing Pakistani regular army for the Eastern border with India; fighting the soviet Jihad at Pak's bidding and winning; climbing Kargil to 6,000 metre heights with dismantled anti-aircraft guns carried on their backs and whacking indian convoys to Siachen while the regulars just maintained reconaissance and logistics - and getting betrayed for all of the above with heavy casualties to them but still remaining loyal to Pakistan.

If this isn't patriotism, what is?

On the other hand, the Corp commander (read musharraf) Peshawar embraces Nek Muhammad in a peace deal and then assassinates him in a helicopter strike; allows foreigners to stay who had been there since the past 20 years and then starts to kill them and handing them over to Gitmo for $5,000 apiece in supposed anti-alqaeda operations; bombs and kills 82 madrassa students in Bajaur plus scores other innocents in league with Nato in attempts to get Zawahiri, and last but not least incinerates 1200-1500 of their women and children in Lal Masjid with chemical weapons and buries them in mass graves and levels the ground and then demolishes the 6 storey building on top of it to destroy evidence ...

If this isn't treachery, what is?

In revenge, they have turned against the military regime in Pakistan, and NOT the State of Pakistan. If they want, they can turn ALL your cities into Baghdad with bombings - blowing up bazaars and shopping malls. But they haven't. They're targeting uniformed security services as a legitimate enemy with little and unavoidable civilian collateral damage. It could be worse, and may yet become worse.

dullabhatti #135: "majority of the Pakistanis had pinned high hopes on Musharraf during majority of the last 8 years time frame...were the majority being childish? yes."

..i don't think the majority of pakistanis had pinned high hopes on him.......they were just glad to see nawaz sharif go.....it had nothing to do with musharraf......even if sonia gandhi had come and gotten rid of nawaz sharif, people would have celebrated.....

......what did happen after that is that the musharraf govt. stabilised the economy, and eventually the economy started growing at levels, rarely seen before......so the people figured that even though this is a military govt., at least they are getting jobs.....

.....where musharraf made his mistake was leaning over far too much towards the americans.......he overdid it.....literally sold out pakistan's sovereignity.... .america is, hugely, unpopular in pakistan.....and with musharraf bombing the tribal areas, on behalf of the americans, the pakistani population turned against him....

.....the other mistake he made was the kidnapping etc. of pakistani citizens on behest of americans......that made him very unpopular......

all of this showed up in the cj case, when the public came out.....

musharraf, basically, belongs to the westernised very pro-usa crowd of pakistan.....the dailytimes and chowk crowd....this is where he feels comfortable......his brother and son are in usa.....he may himself go there, after retirement........this crowd has a tendency to make decisions in favor of the usa, even if the, "unwashed masses" of pakistan are very anti-usa.....

......now you are seeing support for bb and ns....this is, however, also not support........now, people just want someone to kick out musharraf.....and feel ns and bb are the two best options to kick him out......not that they have any high hopes from bb and ns........

Re: # 134

HP

And above all they have been made law-givers as members of the Paky Parliament when the laws made by it are not applicable to them. Is it not a blatant discrimination in the Paky Constitution?
Morality is doing what is right, regardless what we are told.
Religious dogma is doing what we are told, no matter what is right."

Re: # 134 Posted by HP on September 8, 2007 2:36:39 pm

Now in a convoluted way you make it sound that the State of Pakistan was doing all this through the goodness of their hearts. Is this what you are suggesting?

zakkk, for those of us who are only vaguely familiar with Mr. Khattak's background, would that strengthen ANP at the grassroots level, politically?

HP: Something you may like to know: Afrasiab Khattak has become the NWFP provincial head of the ANP.

HP, obviously not many are gaga over him anymore..but my point remains, majority of the Pakistanis had pinned high hopes on Musharraf during majority of the last 8 years time frame...were the majority being childish? yes. that was my point too by the way.

#122 Posted by zeemax

“These Islamists are not against the State of Pakistan. They are in fact its biggest patriots.”
Duh!

I know the definition of patriotism can be pretty extended but what makes them patriots?

Is suicide bombing the cities an act of Patriotism?
Is killing innocent people for no good reason patriotism?

Let me ask you what the state of Pakistan has done to these guys in the tribal areas. Pakistan rarely interferes in the tribal affairs. Pakistan rarely interferes in their economic system and in fact Pakistani liked our smugglers from the tribal areas and tolerated their car stealing and hashish smuggling ways. What has Pakistan done to them that make them stand against the state?

They had more freedom than any other citizen of Pakistan at any given period in history. They never knew Section 144, they never knew the draconian laws that were used against the people of Pakistan by the army and others. They always had a free reign. What more do they want? Did the Pak armies ever attack them? Did the Pak army treat them the way Bengalis were treated?

Pakistan supported these nahinjaar, havyoon, and Mala’oons in their war against the soviets. Pakistan allowed them to shelter the worst criminals from all over the world and they are the reason Pakistan is now in such a difficult state internationally.

How do they repay for all the liberties? They want to impose their lifestyle on the rest of the country. How many in Pakistan agree with the tribal lifestyle and why should Pakistanis be forced in to accepting the tribal way of life.
They know they can’t have that in Pakistan so they are trying to create a country for themselves and that’s why they are Indian agents and enemies of Pakistan.

Since these guys were raised on money made through crimes of smuggling, car stealing, selling Hash and heroine and kidnapping people for ransom-- they are now trying to impose that culture on Pakistan. Crime is in their blood because thats what they were taught at home.

#130 Posted by dullabhatti

“HP saab, you want me to dig up articles and posts by Pak awaam on how dashing , good looking he is,”

There are plenty in Pakistani awam with your level of childish knowledge of politics. If you were to talk about the awam going gaga over his looks, then why this dashing good looking man is afraid to face the awam?

So you think because some people posted their wet dreams of having sex with dashing men on this site, you would pray for those dreams too?

The case is closed, Fatima Jinnah was supported because of the cultural recognition of MAJ (monarchial succession), this type of support that rested on religious/theological exclusion and seperation, deters human consciousness and becomes an opiate. ZAB was supported by the masses because of economic and not theological reasons, bread and butter issues, a kind of support that regardless of the success or failure of the ruler produces consciousness of the social scene, merely by this act it liberates humanity.

the case is closed

Manto writes "You know as well as I do that I have nothing to do with Jamaat-e-Islami. "

Of course you do, but it is an alliance of convenience. Haven't you been upholding Urstruly's posts against me as some sort of evidence, repeating the JI falsehoods and nonsense arguments against ZAB, and then holding them up as some criteria in your support of Fatima Jinnah. How many times have we seen the peons of the colonials get in bed with the mullahs, across the globe, to suppress the people's voice!

HP saab, you want me to dig up articles and posts by Pak awaam on how dashing , good looking he is, how smart and energetic he is, how he is going to take Pakistan to 21st century by getting rid of corrupt Sharif? I give you there were few extreme liberals, anti-mohajirs and mullahs like sameer and zeemax who did not welcome him.
of course the story has been different for the last few years.

bulleya: NS was corrupt and so was BB and their nearest and dearest. I am in agreement with you on that. but so were guys before them and so has been the new nizaam..is Pakistan system any less corrupt now than it was at NS's time? Pakistan was at financial bankruptcy during NS time bceause of the sanctions and nuke tests....first year of Musharraf was not that good either then 9/11 changed lot of things.
Another thing favoring musharraf was spread of new technologies in the last decade and rising consumerism.

#129 Arjun

You are blinded by your feelings.

The 1971 surrender was AFTER fighting a war. There were casualties on both sides.

Comparing the cowardly surrender in NWFP of "professional" Pakistanis is insulting the memories of those soldiers (on both sides) who were driven by their sense of patriotism (misguided as it was on the Pakistani side).

#127 Posted by bjkumar on September 8, 2007 8:34:08 am



Professional soldiers do not just surrender.


WIth the paki army, that's par for the courses...remember 90K momin laying down their weapons?

I must admit there is something highly fishy about this whole "surrender" business. Professional soldiers do not just surrender. Period.

Surrender monkeys surrendered without firing a shot..maybe the paki army should use the new F-16s it bought for air cover...after all, with the restrictions and special "features" in them, they're useless against India(not that pureland would ever get the testicular fortitude to go to war with india to get kashmir or anything)...

VIEW: Surrenders and frontier warfare —Shaukat Qadir

The recent incidents of soldiers supposedly ‘captured by’ militants in the tribal areas — 208 a few days ago, and another dozen a couple of days later, according to various sources — is a matter of concern for all citizens. This seemingly soft surrender becomes even more interesting when we consider that mountain warfare is taught at the Infantry School as well as the Staff College and is also practised during the War Course. Further, veterans of earlier operations in Balochistan or Afghanistan have had chances to apply these concepts in hostile environments.

Any convoy moving through hostile territory, whether vehicular or on foot, routinely occupies all heights along the route to prevent being ambushed. If a vehicular convoy has to meet a time limit then other troops occupy these heights and signal the convoy that the route is safe, thus allowing it to proceed speedily to its destination.

Alternately, if the convoy has to protect itself, then soldiers mounted on the vehicles dismount and clear neighbouring heights, permitting the convoy to proceed with caution till the next possible ambush site is reached, where the same drill is repeated.

Consequently, the explanation for these recent kidnappings offered by DG-ISPR raises more questions than it actually answers.

First, it is intriguing that a convoy of over a hundred regular soldiers and another hundred or so Frontier Corps men with a lieutenant colonel in charge were proceeding on leave. If the regulars were proceeding on leave with the FC personnel along for protection, which makes better sense, then why did the FC men remain mounted on their vehicles while passing through possible ambush sites? The latest su