Remembering the Presidential Election of 1965

#39

Assuming that we accept your narrow and simplistic view of history... that still doesn't explain why people like Wali Khan and others who opposed the creation of Pakistan sided with Fatima Jinnah... surely they and their supporters had no reason to stand with Fatima Jinnah. The truth is that Fatima Jinnah represented Jinnah's vision of Pakistan as a modern democratic Pakistan and resonated with the masses. Wali Khan and others may not have agreed with Jinnah or the Muslim League but atleast on paper were committed to the ushering in a democratic and constitutional order... hence Fatima Jinnah's plank was people's rights and democracy.

Bhutto meanwhile became popular in Pakistan on the anti-India platform after Tashkent and was later utilised in that capacity by the genius J A Rahim... who was later beaten up and humiliated by Bhutto's fascist FSF.

well, I hope manto clarifies this. Manto, at one time, were you not studying the Gandhi books, and extolling the good virtue of that simple man? Hey, he was a lawyer too :). You have a lot in common.
with much respect,
thinking storm

#46 by majumdar

Trust you to come up with MKG on YLH's post. Now this thread goes to 1000 for sure.

Majumdar bhai, that reference to the racist, casteist, misogynist, bigoted freak is only incidental and not the main thrust of my post.

Majumadar writes "If MAJ's popularity arises out of his appeal to Muslim separatism how come 46% of Injuns have given him a thumbs up, Muslims are only 15% of the population"

We have talked about the survey, don't try to fool a social scientist with "surveys"; compare the Indian number to the Pakistani, I was writing about the Pakistani context and it bears out my contention, next if you want to go further compare the Indian Muslim number with the Pakistani Muslim number and it will reflect somewhat on the strength of the cultural enterprise in Pakistan

Guys,

I dont know whether Manto mian was a MKG supporter once or not. But it is OK for a person to change his views if confronted with fresh evidence. Don't scientific facts keep changing all the time. Does that mean that science or scientific methods are wrong. And mind you we are dealing with not even facts but views and opinions.

Regards

"not long ago"

Not since 2000-2001... and before that I was a lot like Masadi. There was a time when I thought Bhutto was a greater leader than Jinnah, Gandhi and Ataturk rolled into one. So you could say Masadi represents the mental maturity that I had at 20. One reads and one changes one's opinion. I don't have a very high opinion of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto ... though I think he was a highly intelligent man who could have done wonders had he not been so flamboyant.


The scientific method suggests that everything is falsifiable. I may or may not hold my views on Jinnah forever either but till now all the evidence I have found has only reaffirmed what is the popularly held opinion about Jinnah even by his opponents i.e. he was an incorruptible,thoroughly honest man who did the best he could with really bad cards.

Masadi sahib,

First of all I have no wish to fool anyone and in any case i dont think u can be fooled.

Agreed that MAJ's (pbuh) approval rating is lower in India compared to Pakistan. But your opinion is that MAJ's popularity is based only on Muslim separatism if that is the case why would 37% Indian non-Muslims ((46%-15%)/85%) assuming all IMs support MAJ) would appreicate MAJ.

Regards

#53 by majumdar

I dont know whether Manto mian was a MKG supporter once or not. But it is OK for a person to change his views if confronted with fresh evidence. Don't scientific facts keep changing all the time. Does that mean that science or scientific methods are wrong. And mind you we are dealing with not even facts but views and opinions.

Majumdar bhai, by the same token, is it unfair to expect Yasser mian to extend the same courtesy to MKG too? By rehashing the same old stuff about Gandhi's prejudice towards blacks dating back to the late 1800s when he was not even popular in his own village let alone all of India and then making a case against him, isn't that rather disingenuous?

Harishbhai,

(Majumdar bhai, by the same token, is it unfair to expect Yasser mian to extend the same courtesy to MKG too? By rehashing the same old stuff about Gandhi's prejudice towards blacks dating back to the late 1800s when he was not even popular in his own village let alone all of India and then making a case against him, isn't that rather disingenuous?)

Fair enuff. And for that reason supporters of MKG (if there are any) should confront YLH with evidence suggesting that his apparently regressive views on blacks, women, polity etc were products of his time and that his views showed a "progress" (whatever that means) with advancing age and maturity. After all MKG had a huge amount of writing all of which is available in the public domain. Someone has to read and reproduce.

Just abusing him is not the right approach.

Regards

#16 HP

I read your earlier article (Back Off Benazir) as well, and have no clue as to what you smoke.

All that BB needs from MushMush is the deal; it will enable her to return to Pakistan with all the legal cases against her thrown out for good. Once she gets that she is in a win-win situation. Consider:

A likely NS dispensation following the parliamentary elections - in reaction to her deal making - would be a Godsend for BB. It would mean Mush out, NSC out, as well as the bar on third time prime ministership gone. All these, plus freedom from corruption charges and legal headaches; what more can the lady ask for?

Contrary to your ganja induced predictions, civil war is what you will get with NS in power. As soon as the jiyalas in NWFP and Punjab figure out that he is going to (have to) continue with the WOT, absent armed forces' goodwill due to the sidelining of the NSC, new violence will erupt all over North Pakistan. MMA and IK would be the first to bolt the NS camp, as well as people like Javed Hashmi. Karachi would have been already up in arms with a NS win; it will be back to the 1990s ten times over.

NS will have a year in power, if that long. This time his pathetic political career would be over for good.

In case your peanut sized Jiye Sindh brain can't figure out who will be the new toast of the town, it will be your's and everyone else's nightmare: BB!!!

Gandhi's views that I quoted were not from the 1800s... his views on black people were from 1911... . His views on caste and women were from the 20s and the 30s.

Furthermore, there was no retraction, apology or change in point of view ever produced...


In any event... this article is not about Gandhi.

PS: Surely Gandhi's views at 45 or 65 were already well formed.

Could a 20 year old's change of opinion be equated to that of a successful Indian barrister like Gandhi of age 45 or a saint/Mahatma like Gandi at age 65 ... the evidence for which I am yet to see?

#57 by majumdar

And for that reason supporters of MKG (if there are any) should confront YLH with evidence suggesting that his apparently regressive views on blacks, women, polity etc were products of his time and that his views showed a "progress" (whatever that means) with advancing age and maturity.

Majumdar bhai, Gandhi lived in the huts of the untouchables at a time they were treated worse than Muslims were. He cleaned their toilets. He openly advocated inter-caste marriages between Harijans and the upper castes. He totally antagonized a lot of caste Hindu Congress leaders by his embrace of Harijans. Is this not enough proof that he had changed? If this isn't enough, I don't know what would.

And FTR, I am by no means a supporter of Gandhi - I find a lot of the stuff he advocated totally out of whack, but the way his character has been assassinated just to prove that he was inferior to Jinnah is something that I detest.

After all MKG had a huge amount of writing all of which is available in the public domain. Someone has to read and reproduce.

His autobiography, "My Experiments With Truth" is available online free. Plus there are tomes of literature on his opinions, some good some bad, some crazy, but they're all there. He hid absolutely nothing. One only needs an open set of eyes.

Just abusing him is not the right approach.

Please stop being charitable, you know Yasser mian himself can hardly be accused of being an innocent bystander.

#60 by MantoLives

Could a 20 year old's change of opinion be equated to that of a successful Indian barrister like Gandhi of age 45 or a saint/Mahatma like Gandi at age 65 ... the evidence for which I am yet to see?

I see...so Yasser is comparing himself with a man who was born more than a 100 years earlier when society was not as broad-minded and evolved as it is today, when there was no TV and Internet, some human beings were equated with animals, when a Hindu who crossed the seas was considered an outcaste and when even water was classified as Hindu paani and Muslim paani. How sensible!!

Thanks YLh for the timely article and as usual you have focussed on the individual, let me talk about the historical juncture.

300 pak soldiers have been captured by 30 tribals, a ratio of one to ten, approximately same as when 90,000 pak sodiers surrendered to around 12000 indians. Again the paks were in hostile territory, the same as in waziristan.

It was bhutto who got teh soldiers released by recognising bangladesh. hence it is only timely that benazir is back to secure the release of pak soldiers and hand over waziristan to teh US to sort out.

Yahya surrendred to bhutto, and mushy will surrender to benzir.

Eventaullay there was a coup and bhutto was killed, the same will happen to benazir, it will be a beareded general and benzir will be killed under sharia law.

You concluded the article correctly, pakistanis will never learn from hisotry and hence history will repeat.

Manto mian,

It does not matter whether you are 20 or 30 or 60 you can make mistakes or suffer from prejudices at any age. But if you are honest enuff to realise your errors that is fair enuff. I certainly hope someone who is a MKG expert can bring fresh evidence (if any exists)on his views on your pet peeves.

Harishbhai,

(If this isn't enough, I don't know what would.)

Nothing really. MKG's life is a fairly open book and people just have to reproduce his writings and deeds if they want to defend him, that's all.

And I do appreciate the fact that in his books he has often pointed out to his shortcomings. He has hidden nothing except his dalliances with a certain Mrs. Anne Doherty.

(I am by no means a supporter of Gandhi - I find a lot of the stuff he advocated totally out of whack)

I am really glad to hear that.

(Please stop being charitable, you know Yasser mian himself can hardly be accused of being an innocent bystander. )

I had no intention of pointing a finger at anyone or defending anyone. Sorry about that. I guess it is meant for all us, including me. It would be better if we could refute other people's arguments with facts and logics rather than resort to abuse.

Regards