Remembering the Presidential Election of 1965

if the law against any one person becoming the pm for three times, stays in place, then bb and ns are out......this law cannot be changed before the elections, as the pml(q) has stated it will not vote against it......

.....either pml(n) or ppp will win the next elections.....who will be the pm, if it cannot be bb or ns.....

both will want to be the pm, if there party wins.....so they will probably try to change this law, after the elections......but what if the opposition is strong enough to not allow this change.....

......this law is actually one of the best laws in pakistani politics......someone, other than bb or ns, needs to come to the top of their parties......

one would have to guess, it would be shahbaz sharif from pml......who from the ppp......

there is another issue for bb and ns......both of them have been massively corrupt.......ns being the far bigger in corruption amongst the two......there seems to be an assumption that the supreme court will not hear the corruption cases against them.....but what if it does, and puts them in jail (which is where they belong, by the way)....

the supreme court barring ns and bb and convicting them, followed by musharraf leaving, thereby allowing new leadership to emerge in ppp and pml is the best option....and if imran khan is successful in uk against the altaf then altaf is out also......

actually that would leave the maulvi candidates as the most well-known.....and they don't have any cases against them...though, i still think pml or ppp will score much higher in votes than maulvis....

Romair sahib,

Disqualifying NS/BB becuase of the two term rule will not solve any problem. If PML-N wins Shahbaz Sharif will be eligible to serve two terms followed by Mrs. NS (2 terms), Mrs. SS (2 terms), their kids after that. If PPP wins, it wud be AZ followed by their three kids. In any case given that NS/BB cud "enjoy" each of their regime for only about 2 years apiece makes disqalification rather too harsh.

As far as the 2-term law is concerned, it is neither good nor bad per se. This law is there in USA and has not done them any harm. This law does not exist in India or UK and has not done any harm either.

Regards

Re: # 96 Posted by DrDr on September 7, 2007 10:52:08 am

You are wrong about Manto. It is masadi who constantly repeats the jibberish regarding the US elite.

Manto is a Pakistani who has an intellect that most Pakistanis are proud of.

Yasser,

How old were you when the 1965 election took place?

Books can teach one a great deal but cannot paint

the entire picture clearly...

Scoring points at the expense of ZAB is hopefully a Fad!

does anyone seriously believe that it will make a difference if BB or NS chose their second lieutenants to be the PM instead of themselves? They will still be the real power holders and be the ones playing the cards.

problem is the absence of any evolution in Pakistani politics over the last 8 years..whole process was in freeze mode..as soon as play button is pressed, it started where it froze...same lotas, same ganjas and same das feesadis.

Pakistanis instead of complaining about BB or NS should blame themselves and Mushy for it. you have been looking with awe at Mushy the Masiah for last 8 years to solve all problems...now all of sudden want a new reformed breed of polticians...politicians don't grow on trees...they evolve and rise amongst the people. it takes a life time for one to reach the top...think aboutt Jinnah, nehru, Vajpayee, thacher, bill clinton, mandela...it took them whole life to be what they were...they were not pulled out some General's ass like Bhuttos and Sharifs.

dullahbhatti #: "does anyone seriously believe that it will make a difference if BB or NS chose their second lieutenants to be the PM instead of themselves?"

i think if bb or ns aren't directly in power (and assuming their siblings etc. aren't either), then there will be a change......once someone else tastes power, he/she tries to become prominent........

take the example of ns.......he was a nobody in politics....the two biggest political figures for pml were pir pagaro and junejo......however, ns reached the top, and now where are pir pagaro and junejo, or their families?......

you cannot compare clinton, nehru, jinnah, vajpayee and the situtions they arose in to pakistan.......there are certain pre-requisites for democracy......it those don't exist, then nothing changes.......that is where the evolution needs to take place........

india has had most of those pre-requisites......pakistan did not.......however, an evolution of sort is occuring.....the judiciary is free, the media is free......some of the other items that need to occur are end to land holdings, higher level of literacy etc......

.....i don't think people looked at musharraf as a messiah.....they were, simply, totally tired of ns......i certainly felt he was about to take the country off a cliff......pakistan was almost bankrupt, with every major figure defaulting, a shariah bill was to be implemented, the supreme court had been stormed.....

......if musharraf had left after three years, he would have gone as a hero.......the problem is that he also started enjoying the seduction of power, and refuses to leave......even if he, voluntarily, leaves now people will be ok with him.........

no one is looking at politicians now for anything.....they know that bb and ns will, thoroughly, screw things up again......they are,thus, looking at the judiciary.......where they see some hope......i.e. slowly the pre-requisites of genuine democracy are coming into place.....once these happen, the politicians will have to reform and the army will have to stay out of politics......

Ras,

One would have imagined that you would have known me better than to accuse me of "scoring points" at the expense of "ZAB"... Now who would I be scoring points with? Indians? Pakistanis? The regime which is about to fall? The BB government which will probably come to power? CIA?

In my view history only becomes clearer with hindsight. Since you were around in Pakistan at that period you may inform us as to what or how things were.

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was a complex politician shaped and driven by different forces. To imagine him to be some sort of a great savior of people is as wrong as to imagine him as some sort of a common criminal. There was a lot he could have done... but he was limited :

a. by his origin as the psychophant darbari of Iskandar Mirza and Ayub Khan (both his benefactors whom he later betrayed) turned hero at the expense of the people.

b. by his feudal background which dominated and over powered the embryonic liberal democrat inside him.

Dullah has written the following:

"Pakistanis instead of complaining about BB or NS should blame themselves and Mushy for it. you have been looking with awe at Mushy the Masiah for last 8 years to solve all problems...now all of sudden want a new reformed breed of polticians...politicians don't grow on trees...they evolve and rise amongst the people. it takes a life time for one to reach the top...think aboutt Jinnah, nehru, Vajpayee, thacher, bill clinton, mandela...it took them whole life to be what they were...they were not pulled out some General's ass like Bhuttos and Sharifs"

#92 Posted by HisExcellency

“Not exactly. Two mistakes were made by the army:
1- Sending a convoy of 15 vehicles without air cover.
2- Failure to maintain radio contact with the convoy”

I was not referring to just two incidents. The whole situation in the tribal areas is out of hand and out of control. I am not suggesting that all pathans in the tribal area are against Pakistan but it is clear to any one who can see through the Islamist politics in that area, that their plan is to carve an independent area for a Taliban type state outside of state of Pakistan.

You need to pay attention to the targeted areas by the Islamist or the Taliban. They are hyperactive in the tribal areas and the areas adjacent to Afghanistan in NWFP. You will rarely see them showing their muscles in the Hazara district or even in Peshawar city.

These Havyoon and Mala’oon are against the state of Pakistan. I may call them Indian agents metaphorically but that is a very close description of their character.

#90 Posted by Zakkk

“A side note to this article; Bhashanis role in FJ's election was very unfortunate. He effectively blocked the first opposition candidate; ex general azam khan. He also never denied being bought off to sabotage FJ's election campaign. He used ideological terms (the sino tilt by ZAB) to cover it but it was more crass opportunism.’

Unfortunately, you like Manto are taking the JI propaganda line seriously. Bhashani was never a factor in East Pakistan politics. He was in a habit of issuing flaming statements to get attention in West Pakistan. Bhutto rarely visited East Pakistan even when he was minister. I think his visits to East Pakistan can be counted on fingers. As far as Bhutto working with Bhashani is concerned, it was a pure fabrication by the JI and the Gen Sher Ali Khan’s press.

From Bhutto’s perspective, people like Bhashani were never more than clowns. I doubt that he ever personally met Bhashani. Bahshani and Wali Khan split some time in 1964 and after that Bhashani’s party never had even a small political support in E. Pakistan. He was a clown and was used by the Urdu media in West Pakistan for fear mongering.

The popularity of Gen Azam in East Pakistan was a myth created by the Pakistani media. How could a W. Pakistan army gen. appointed by the Ayub regime -hated by the Bengalis- be more popular than Bengali leaders in Bengal? Just think about it. Azam Khan was a media myth. Bengalis voted for Ms. Jinnah because she was MAJ’s sister otherwise, I doubt that they would have cared for any other leader from West Pak.

PS: It ought to be read carefuly by those who now wish to make Nawaz Sharif into a people's hero the day after tomorrow.

HP,

My source of information is Herbert Feldman's Omnibus. You know as well as I do that I have nothing to do with Jamaat-e-Islami.

#104 Posted by MantoLives

I don’t know what you saw in Dullah’s post that you decided to re-post it. Only simpletons write things like that.

“you have been looking with awe at Mushy the Masiah for last 8 years to solve all problems.”


Only an 8 years old child with completely non political mind can write such a ridiculous line.

I think it is relevant to those who think Nawaz Sharif is going to be some sort of a people's hero.

#107 Posted by MantoLives
"Herbert Feldman's Omnibus"

I have not read this person. There is a need to distinguish between the serious scholars and people who glean information from newspapers and then quote them as something authentic.

Just tossing a White or a western name does not make things authentic. It is your research and the grasp of politics that tells you how to figure out who is a fake scholar and who is the real one.

Those who have followed the left politics in Pakistan know that Bhashani was a clown and his association with Bhutto was all made up.

Bhutto had a certain background and people from that background look at politicians like Bhashani for amusement and not for some serious political insight.

#109 Posted by MantoLives

I am not going to swayed by some barbs.
I know what NS is capable of and am pretty sure where the whole thing is leading. There is no need to be testy. If you want to discuss that I am more than willing to do that in a respectful manner.

Dear HP,

Herbert Feldman's account of Ayub Khan regime is considered a pretty authentic first hand account of living under Ayub Khan. It is not history or anything but simply a primary record of history seen through the eyes of Herbert Feldman.