The Reality of Disposable Kids

jayp#8

Regardless of what you have said in your posts, the WORST idea that you seem to carry and speak so outrageously is that "abhorence of child labour is a western idea."

I mean, honestly, WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY???

Have you ever seen a five year old boy picking garbage and hauling it for miles in a plastic bag larger than him? Have you seen 8 - 12 year olds working as apprentices of mechanics, their entire body greasy and blackened from the dirty work? Little girls dodging cars on the street to clean windows or to beg for loose change, tiny hands weaving carpets and dying clothes in sweatshop factories all over South Asia, teenage girls and boys working as 'jamadaars' or helping hands in homes... the examples are endless and equally repulsive...

Yes, I agree that we cannot take them out of work immediately but there are special programs where they can be rehabilitated with monetary benefits etc. that i spoke of in my last post...

You say, "the only way child labour can reduce is when the income increases, and in pakistan of today, and in the context of the jihadis, supporting child labour is a pragmatic option with lot of benefits."

No child working in Pakistan earns enough money to get out of work in the future or to support his family financially enough for his parents and siblings to study or eat a hearty meal. In context of what you are saying is so disgustingly Capitalist, its unbelievable, because it sounds like you are a staunch supporter of: ‘Work Shall Set You Free.’ And if you honestly believe this, you will be better off knowing that this was written on the entrance of the Auschwitz death-camp.
And you really think child labor children DO NOT become jihadis? You think work keeps children out of violence… jayp I really want you to visit Karachi...

I especially DO NOT understand this:
"Read the above not from a westernised moral perspective, but from a realistic pak perspective in terms of options available for pak planners."

What is a western moral perspective and an eastern moral perspective? Please tell me the difference! If you have visited any western country or met someone from there, you would see that they have more civic sense, more courtesy and generally a more humane attitude for the entire world (albeit the minority of rotten eggs in any basket).
Even with the presence of child labor and other inhuman activities in South Asia, no person in the eastern world would ever sanely propagate little children to work on the street other than the reasons that I mentioned in my last post...

And MORALS, especially those pertaining to Child Rights, are universal morals!
If you have any children jayp, if you have any nephews or nieces or little siblings/cousins, look at them when they are having a cozy sleep or eating their favorite food or playing innocently in a park...and then imagine them working 10 - 14 hour shifts, getting little to no proper meals, no love from their elders, no education or time to play like all children...
IT IS MORALLY WRONG!!!

AND I'm not sure what corner of the West you are living in, because certainly if you live/lived in India/Pakistan atleast, ATLEAST you would never say such things....

[P.S. don’t respond with more economic reasons for Child Labor because I think that argument was summed up by me in my last post…]

"As the economy progresses, there is a tipping point when the children become a liability, and that is when the child birth reduces, parents spent their income on teh children."

btw, WTF does this mean? Is it supposed to be some kind of Malthusian population theory (in a demented form)? You make no economic sense. What is your 'tipping' point? What does child birth have to do with child labor?(or you talking on marginals or numerical terms? Issues of demand, supply, aggregrates?) And again, disposable income does not necessarily apply to the subsistence farmer, the issue is not of income, but wealth. Understand the difference.

jayp

it would be wise not to indulge yourself in national-heroic-pride and country bashing. We can all see how nationalistic and heroic you are (country of preference need not be named). Congratulations, give yourself a pat on the back for some moral support and an appraisal of self-esteem.

The issue at hand is child labor, and mainly policy. While historical economic facts for the Indian subcontinent clearly point towards an exploitative nature in wage differentials and labor participation, it is important to not that consumable income and disposable income are not issues of relevance to lets say, the subsistence farmers. Without getting into any form of scientific/mathematical modelling of labor and IO issues, it is important to note, from a policy point of view that child labor is only a product of disintermediation between the labor and production. You may be a socialist or a capitalist, but the problem of checks and balances is clear to a certain level in each 'economic' system. Child labor is not a product of necessity, but instead is rooted in the nature of the system in which it grows, one where de-regulated profit maximization is central. In Pakistan, as in most 'third' world countries, or to put it in nicer terms, 'developing economies' (development? what does that mean anyways?) child labor is an inevitable course that will eventually run aground itself, as it has in most 'developed' economies.

Now fight over the politics of it...

tahmed # 6

Bihar is teh worst state in india in terms of income, crime you name it. I have long stated that bihar should be made part of pakistan.

I recall way beack in the 1970s, Bhagalpur blindings where the jailors routinely made the prisoners blind. The story reported by Arun Shouri made him a hero and launched his career.

Killing of the christian priests, the murder of the IIT graduate that launched the whistle blower legislation in India...well take the reports from Bihar as reports from Pakistan.

In fact that I suspect that some of the Indians on Chowk who feel so much of affinity with pakistan are either from UP or from Bihar and I rest my case.

Farig #5,

One has to talk about options in a practical achievable sense, not some kind of Hoodboy type of wishful thinking and fantasy.

Let us take the reality of pakistan,

There can be no increased budget of significance for education.
The madrassas will continue, and no govt will be able to control what they teach, especially after lal majid. What you call as stupid mullahs will continue in madrassas. The number of madrassas are only likely to increase. The goct schools are not likely to compete with students of teh madrassas due to geopgraphic and you name it reasons.

Based on all of teh above facts, and as you noted that children are sent to madrassas for 3 meals, the child labour offers a better option, 3 meals plus meals for the parents.

Simple hard facts points to teh advantage of child labour in pakistan from a social ( reducing jihadic potential ) and economic view point.

Finally abhorence of child labour is a western idea. For poor countries, children are an asset, they can look after the animals, collect firewood, become setvants, earn soem money. As the economy progresses, there is a tipping point when the children become a liability, and that is when the child birth reduces, parents spent their income on teh children.

Hence I do repeat, that the only way child labour can reduce is hen the income increases, and in pakistan of today, and in teh context of the jihadis, supporting child labour is a pragmatic option with lot of benefits.

Read teh above not from a westernised moral perspective, but from a realistic pak perspective in terms of options avialable for pak planners.

farigh-man: you may consider yourself "farigh", but some of us have been "farigh" for 10 years on chowk. And Jay thakeray is not just farigh, but is a serious hindutva as well for whom reality and reason are minor inconveniences to be ignored or twisted.

#4 jay thakeray: so in india they provide free lunch to kids in school? a brief glimpse of reality from today's bbc for your demented mind (not that chowk posts are going to make any difference - you need serious treatment).

You can now ignore it, or give lie about it (i.e. give it a positive spin) as you did about that story of "pious" nepalese slaughtering goats as part of their airline maintenance program.

Ten men beaten to death in India

Ten people have been beaten to death by a group of villagers in the northern Indian state of Bihar, officials say. The men, who arrived in a vehicle in Vaishali district early on Thursday, were stopped by villagers who suspected them of being thieves.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6992446.stm

jayp,

First of all, there is no justification of child labor, not poverty, not social inequalities, none!
Yes, it does exist, is wide-spread and almost unchallengeable in Pakistan.
The first issue is why children are forced into labor? No poor parent, whether in urban or rural areas, wants their child to work. I know this by personal interaction with both kinds of parents. They send them to work because either,
1- There are no schools to enroll them into or,
2- Even with the presence of schools they see no future for their children in the substandard education they receive.

Also, they believe that the child's future is better off in the occupation of his father, since the world has nothing better to offer (I don't think this point needs a counter-argument).

How do you challenge this? By special programs for child laborers to study alongside their work. Yes, its terrible to accept child labor but various projects in Pakistan have proven that it is better to rehabilitate children into school rather than dragging them out of work since his/her family needs the money. This adds to your idea of keeping children into work since it is economically viable for the family and his/her employer. Furthermore, the education of these working children must be of a specific kind, leading to a vocation skill, which will give him ready employment as a technician, computer programmer, carpenter, printer etc. and allows him/her to get further education.

However, this is NOT be a permanent solution! And this cannot be considered better for Pakistan's economy! In this sense child labors digging caves in Congo for diamonds are good for their economy and so are the child soldiers training for war in North Korea.

For your reference please look at Sindh Education Foundation's (S.E.F's) website and check out their Child Labor Education Program (CLEP)- http://www.sef.org.pk/CLEPRFTF.asp
Their center at SherShah in Karachi has helped nearly 300 working children to become full time employees in a well-paying industry and to further pursue education as well.

Your other point about these same children ending up as Jihadis and in madrassas is very true. You are also right that it is not necessarily poverty that makes them jihadis. The extremist element comes from unemployment, brainwashing by demented maulvis and from a general disillusionment from one's life and society.
At the basic level, this problem is simply because of the failed education system of Pakistan. Children go to madrassas because they offer a safe, clean atmosphere (highly contestable) with two to three meals a day. Parents are also happy because their children are gaining 'deeni taleem', considered by most Muslims to be far better than 'dunyavi taleem'. They are present and proliferating all over Pakistan because the state has failed in creating any sort of public education facilities. To understand this further you may read Mr. Hoodbhoy's brilliant article, 'Preventing More Lal Masjids' posted here on chowk.

I don’t understand how you can call this a Western idea or Western article. It is simply talking about a social abnormality in our country. If you are bothered about English, then please go to http://www.forums.com.pk/ where we can interact in Urdu, in Urdu script.

Tolkin,

What I said is very true in teh case of pakistan. In India most schools provide free lunch to teh children, so at least food preperation is not a burden on partents.

In pakistan, most of them like tahmed, YLH etc say that it is poverty that is driving teh children to madassas and eventually to jihad. Hence what I suggested is very valid and is the right thing for pakistan as it provides two fold benefit, one less jihadi to be killed and one more worker.

Jayp Ji
Its not like child labour is ok anywhere .Take for E.g India is also poor irrespective of Mittal & Premji who do nothing for uneducated children because they want the BEST mbas and Graduates.
b/c there is no school in millions of villages not to say food for lack of money in India also child labour may be good b/c it brings food in house .(sarcasm wala icon)

Should property rights consume you to ignore human rights of children .atleast let them grow and have other memories than 24/7 with no benifits work work only.

Faris,

This another irrelevant article imitating the western ideas with complete disregard to teh state of pakistan. Child labour should be encouraged in pakistan so that they are contributing to the economy of pakistan. If teh children are not working, they will be in the madrassas becoming jihadis bringing harm to pakistan.

The western countries should encourage child labour in pakistan, made by pak children should be the selling point and the rest of the world will love those products, at least those are not in madrassas.

"The wonderful Neo-liberal economical model Pakistan is blindly following does not concern itself with education, child labor, female empowerment and poverty.

Galeano states, ‘twin totalitarianisms plaque the world: the dictatorships of consumer society and obligatory injustice.’
An urgent need is to adopt a new social philosophy centered on human needs and projects, where the freedom of human beings must have priority over the free market and human rights are protected more than property rights, in fact, a society that is concerned with reality and is not indifferent of the gross crimes that it silently participates in."

Well said and true. But how, how and how? New ideas must replace these idiotic economic policies plunging us ever deeper into a violent confrontation and extreme behavior. Where are these ideas? Certainly not in the West, and certainly Pakistanis have to think themselves out of this. But thinking hurts. And who wants pain when they have prayer.

S