The Power of Ideas and the Modern University

Prof. Hoodbhoy has been highlighting the problems in Pakistani education system for quite a while. Criticism of the weaknesses and defects of the existing method of teaching and doing research is healthy and commendable but a few things that I found missing in his articles relate to his failure to highlight the progress made in Pakistani education system over a number of years (or, is there no progress?). Say, for instance, how our present system is better than the one that was used some twenty years ago. Have we made any progress or are we static or retrogressive? If there is some progress, what is it?
Another thing which has been nagging my mind for quite some time is regarding the research work done in Pakistan. Are there any scientists who can be compared with some well-known western scientists in terms of the excellence of their research work. Some names come to my mind although I don't precisely know what significant contributions did they make in their own field. You come across a few Indian names who have made significant contributions to, say. the theory of strings. But nobody from Pakistan.
When I do internet search for prominent Pakistani scientists, only one name appears again and again; it is that of Abdus Salam. In the context of de-emphasizing the manufacture of nuclear weapons, Prof. Hoodbhoy's name comes to the fore.
Some Pakistani scientists (including Prof. Hoodbhoy) should take the initiative to write articles highlighting the contributions of the contemporary scientists. Such articles are sure to stimulate interest in the minds of the students. It is hard to believe that no meaningful research work has been done in Pakistan during the last 3-4 decades.

Mohammad Gill

Here is what an ideal university would REALLY be like.

1) Students will go there only for their love of learning – not for a rewarding career later on. The students will not spend their time partying. They would not care what grades they get – there won’t be any grades because the true gain will be the learning itself. Students will not get involved in politics, or maar-peat, or gunda-gardi.

2) Faculty would not care about low pay – or any pay at all. They will starve if necessary, and would not care! Their pursuit of knowledge will be its own reward which will be more satisfying than material thingies could ever be – perhaps even better than mind-blowing sex – perhaps a lot better than what the macaws and the tarantulas could ever accomplish!

It is fair to say that at this time, with MANY well-known U.S. institutions of higher learning, the profit motive rules and learning (if it takes place at all) is merely an added bonus – in other words, Laxmi has relegated Saraswati to the background. Most of those schools are too busy paying the fat salaries of the professors and the administrators to worry about nurturing the mind!

Having gotten that out of the way, here is what I am REALLY yearning to say!

If you do not mind my saying, Sir, for a fourteen-year old to be dreaming of electrical transformers, motors and the like instead of the fair sex – there has to be something drastically wrong with the hormones! All I can say is – if the idea of electric motors turns you on, I shudder to imagine what full-fledged sex would be like.

Perhaps somebody has got your number – an imaginary number, that is!

PS: wonderful article, as usual!

Rabindra Nath Tagore for Pakistanis??

I thought some quotation from Iqbal that traces every sciences to the will of Allah would perhaps summarize the policy in an Islamic state like Pakistan.

It was nice to see and hear Pervez Hoodbhoy

tell it like it is last Saturday in San Jose.

I think that Pakistani-Americans can actively

support some of his initiatives.

Glad to know that he shares my Alma Mater, KGS.

It is always a pleasure to listen to him.



Ras

Pervez,

Do you know that a certain bearded bloke who lurks on Chowk has already finalised the blue print for the higher education system in Pakistan?

Do you know that the Honourable Minister for Education has already accepted the proposals made by the bearded bloke in question?

Why do you propose a system that would increase the number of "dimwits", "morons", "peons of the west", and "red assed baboons" in Pakistan?

Why do you want Pakistani students to study science? Is this a conspiracy by the evil US elite?

You obviously lack credibility since you have never been published on lulu.com. The bearded bloke is a celebrity on that website.

Pervez,
Are you not aware that ancient Muslims had discovered all there is to discover in science & medicine? MRI, CAT Scan etc had all been discovered by our Muslim ancestors many centuries back. Any doubts on this score can be answered by the genuine research works of the bearded bloke referred earlier.

Before the intelligentsia of Chowk (led by the bearded bloke) descends on you in hordes, let me compliment you and wish you luck...

#5 Okhla99

May I ask who the bearded bloke is - and why you are after him?

Re: # 6

Yes, you may. ; )


: )


: )

Thanks for quoting from one of my most favorite poems of all time.

At last, through teh intervention of teh americans, Jinnah archives have been opened and here is a little know visionary poem from the man himself.

Quoted from the forthcoming book by Stanley Wolpert, " the little known Jinnah",


"Where the mind is full of hate and the gun is held high;
Where rote learning is free;
Where the country is broken up along shia sunni lines;
Where words come out from the depth of memorizing;
Where tireless jihad stretches its arms towards heaven;
Where the clear stream of hatred see no end;
Where the mind is led forward by the two nation theory--
Into that heaven of freedom, my allah, let my country awake".

Re: # 9

That is a truly magnificient and apt national anthem for the pure land of hate.

baasi laddu/jay thakeray: shouldnt you pandit hates love Pakistan if you think it is the "land of hate"??

Hoodboy sahib, now you gone and done it..Masadi is sure to inject some of his brilliance into the discussion. (right after he wakes up cleaning the bathroom at the gov't college)

tahmed bhai,

we love Pakistanis -- we just hate the idea of Pakistan

Okhla writes "Do you know that a certain bearded bloke who lurks on Chowk has already finalised the blue print for the higher education system in Pakistan?"

Look a-hole be man enough to confront ideas and not rely on made up BS. I am not "bearded", and as far as looks go, I look more like your Western "gods" than the MAJ did, but that by itself is no qualification for enlightenment, and as far as using the methodology of science in my work goes, I beat any of you so called "modern" folk on here whose best work is "Fun at fishing"- that is all this miserable fcuk has managed to produce in his ilog, now visit my ilog and read some of my articles at http://articles.asadi.org and you will see where enlightenment is to be found....All this fool can manage is conjuring up false images of "bearded fanatics" to discredit ideas based on BS. Like it or not my recommendations were persuasive enough to make it through to an institute whose head is a pro-West Western educated highly qualified person and he was moved by them so much that he forwarded them to a federal minister for distribution country-wide, when this fanatic PH, who writes BS with veiled attacks on Islam, is able to manage that even with his long list of credentials and sources- don't forget that my history of teaching here is short and his is long- then we can talk....until then, Okhla shut up...

Chaltahai writes "right after he wakes up cleaning the bathroom at the gov't college"

No a-hole, my bathroom cleaning days were left behind in the USA, here I am King of the department but not at GC who are third rate paymasters where the elite divide up the HEC funds among their group and pay new comers very little, well below the pay scale I demand;

By the way nothing wrong in cleaning bathrooms but you don't need a graduate degree in sociology from the US to do that in Pakistan, there are many other options.

tahmed writes "pandit hates"

Direct result of the MAJ's actions on behalf of the feudals and the colonials to scapegoat the Muslims of India. Not only breaking them up politically and thus making them weak but producing just such a multitude of "pundit hates"- while producing multitudes of wealth and power for themselves. The idea of Pakistan in its essence was anti-Muslim, just like the Mullah's attempts to use Islam for political gain or terrorism is anti-Islam...The Church of MAJ is dead in Pakistan, and as such the days of "Pundit Hates" are few, the Muslim Political Power that MAJ fragmented and made weak will emerge with much greater than the whole with an alliance of the "Third World" against YOUR colonial masters, then people using theological seperation, ethnicity and other such distractions will be wiped off like dirt by the people.....

Gill writes "Some Pakistani scientists (including Prof. Hoodbhoy) should take the initiative to write articles highlighting the contributions of the contemporary scientists. "

He does write articles, two dozen at a time like you do but just like your pieces of nonsense that are tape recorderesque, parrot, rote-thinking, summarizing books type, of articles, these don't have any original thought or workable solutions. Now atleast he has "better" things to do, i.e. sitting at his desk and misinforming students about Islam and science, than you do, so why don't you shut-up and let him do his nonsense as you do yours on here...

Masadi writes: "my bathroom cleaning days were left behind in the USA"

Yaar cleaning bathrooms of US elite has certainly made you into a sourpuss. Tell ya what..come over..you can clean my bathroom.

I have read your articles and I find them amateurish and replete with questions rather than answers. While you stew in your derision of the US elite, the rest of the world is copying its ways and moving ahead.

laddu: dont embarass me by writing a nice response to a post that was meant to be nasty. :-(

#18 chaltahai to masadi: While you stew in your derision of the US elite, the rest of the world is copying its ways and moving ahead.

Words of wisdom. But alas, while a word is enough for the wise - with fools, the gods themselves struggle in vain.

#16 masadi: what is this mumbo-jumbo??

Tahmed,

It is a repetition of the same old garbage which doesn't stand the test of history... but Masadi keeps repeating it like a broken record.

PS: And coming as it is from someone like me who is a great broken record in my own right... it says a lot about the great self styled "Zulfikar Ali Bhutto", "Noam Chomsky" and "Howard Zinn" of Pakistan.

#23 Mantolives: We are all broken records here on chowk. :-)

Why cant our potato-head mard-e-momin, our royal daughter of the east, and above all our unelected, overclever "president" say this?

Prime Minister of Japan to Step Down
...Mr. Abe acknowledged that he had lost the public’s trust and said that he hoped a new leader would be better able to carry out his policies..

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/12/world/asia/12cnd-japan.html?_r=1 &hp&oref=slogin

What Masadi saying is totally right. Just cramming and memorizing does not do good. As he suggested thinking snd analysing is more important than just copying old stuff and assuimg right as it is written Holi Roman script. Arjun and Manto just copy and paste 80% stuff and feel if you copy and paste some thing is proven, its nothing proven. A donkey can eat all books it no use.
Masadi's emphesis on thinking is more important than tradition study or book keeping and memorising , I completely support thinking learning then chaeting and copying in exams.

What Masadi saying is totally right. Just cramming and memorizing does not do good. As he suggested thinking snd analysing is more important than just copying old stuff and assuimg right as it is written Holi Roman script. Arjun and Manto just copy and paste 80% stuff and feel if you copy and paste some thing is proven, its nothing proven. A donkey can eat all books it no use.
Masadi's emphesis on thinking is more important than tradition study or book keeping and memorising , I completely support thinking learning then chaeting and copying in exams.

tahmed,

You should like my creativity in adapting a well known poem to suit the pak reality.

That could as well could have been the jinnah version of teh tagore poem, sorry he did not write anything, only ex-tempo speeches, and the entire ilks of YLH are hanging by two lines of that speech.

Time to accept reality, say aloud what pakistan is and hold your head in shame. No other option for pakistanis, poor ones, they cannot even come to their own country.

jayp: so you think you are creative - after repeating the same one line ("Pakistan is a failure") for 10 years, the only difference between you and the inmates of insane asylums is that the latter get their faces washed in the morning.

tahmed,

Enjoy the parody of a famous poem, and reflect on its appropriateness for pakistan of today

Masadi #14



lol...


Bukkwaas mat kar.
Dum hai toh aur photo dikhaa.
Nahin toh chupp kar kay baith jaa.

Masadi #14

You say " I am not "bearded", and as far as looks go, I look more like your Western "gods" than the MAJ did"

lol...


Bukkwaas mat kar.
Dum hai toh aur photo dikhaa.
Nahin toh chupp kar kay baith jaa.

prophetboy...OBL has a 46% approval rating in pureland...and Al Queda 43%..Mushy's approval rating is less than 40%..

how're you going to spin this?

okhla writes "Dum hai toh aur photo dikhaa"

So you can send your assassins after me you damn criminal- go to hell

Chaltahai writes "While you stew in your derision of the US elite, the rest of the world is copying its ways and moving ahead."

You can "copy its ways" and become a slave, like the Indian elite, even as the country goes to hell, or you can understand their ways and confront them and be brave and independant even though the system will reject you. I choose the independence way, you and tahmed are welcome to live in your slavish existence.

Regarding my articles being "amateurish", let us see what you have produced and if you can produce even the level of the language used in my articles, leave alone the complexity of thought and concepts. Claims like yours are "amateurish", things that I have produced are certainly not...

Madani sahib once again thank you for your support and your wisdom which is a welcome change on Chowk, keep it up, Long live the HP, ahmedmadani, Masadi friendship for social justice...

tahmed writes "#16 masadi: what is this mumbo-jumbo?? "

It is not "mumbo jumbo", it is an interpretation of factual history, the FACT that Muslims were scapegoated by the MAJ and post ulterior motive of getting his own country the claims for the cause of seperation were not borne out, not with the masses of the West and certainly not with those of the East, democracy was nipped in the bud, the elite of the West and the colonials were helped, and this land, to the detriment of its people was converted into an outpost of the neo-colonials, not to mention the catastrophic effect it hand on the Muslims of India, and fragmented the political power of the Muslims of the Sub-Continent, producing a multitude of "pundit-hates" that unleashed their wrath as a reaction to what MAJ did. One man came along and tried to fix it, the ZAB, and they came up with Ad Hominem arguments against him, value judgments and "Islamic rhetoric" by those that were slaves of the West, and this miserable High Priest of the Church of MAJ, manto is still trying to legitimize those high crimes of the elite.... you are in the same boat though much smarter than Manto, you mask and veil your support in moralistic terms much like the US elite became "Islamized" in order to fight the SU in Afghanistan.

Now if you two don't have brains enough to understand the above summation, try reading it more than once or have GT or HP translate it for you....

read "not to mention the catastrophic effect it hand on the Muslims of India, and fragmented the political power of the Muslims of the Sub-Continent"

as

"not to mention the catastrophic effect it had on the Muslims of India, and fragmented the political power of the Muslims of the Sub-Continent"

Masadi, Unicef just reported that the children of this world are better off at anytime since they started keeping statistics on infant mortality, nutrition, healthcare, education etc. USA USA USA!!!!

Also, Indians are better off now then every before. The chinese are better off than ever before. It is all because they have played the system well. Just being a contrarian for the sake of hearing your drivel doesn't make change happen, Masadi. Showing results does.

And for the last time..who si this US elite you keep refering to?

#37 masadi: you write It is not "mumbo jumbo", it is an interpretation of factual history, the FACT that Muslims were scapegoated by the MAJ and post ulterior motive of getting his own country the claims for the cause of seperation were not borne out, not with the masses of the West and certainly not with those of the East, democracy was nipped in the bud, the elite of the West and the colonials were helped, and this land, to the detriment of its people was converted into an outpost of the neo-colonials, not to mention the catastrophic effect it hand on the Muslims of India, and fragmented the political power of the Muslims of the Sub-Continent, producing a multitude of "pundit-hates" that unleashed their wrath as a reaction to what MAJ did.

And all this is one sentence!! I indeed lack the brains to understand what you are trying to say. And if you have chelas who can explain the words of the great sage, I am all ears. In the meantime, if you dont have the courtesy to write clearly (e.g. no more than one issue per sentence, thank you very much), dont expect me to have the courtesy to call it anything other than what it is, i.e. mumbo-jumbo. The kind of thing you find written on billboards carried around by a homeless man complaining about evil space aliens in cahoots with the World Governemnt kidnapping his grandma.

Tahmed #40
lol...

great humor..
You have out done yourself Bro Tahmed.
May your tribe increase.

If Copernicus died (1543 A.D) before Galileo was born (1562 A.D), and if Copernicus was the first to propose (albeit not publish in his lifetime) a heliocentric model, how could the latter be considered Galileo's brilliant idea?

viqarm: I think copernicus is credited with the idea that the earth revolves around the sun. Galileo bought into that idea (and I assume not indepenedently but by learning about the copernician theory), but as i recall from reading somewhere (i wasnt there myself at the time) Galileo recanted on this too when pushed by the maulvis (i.e. the christian variety).

re: tahmed32 & viqarm

Sorry to interrude into this discussion, but I thought that I would clarify a few points.

Copernicus did, indeed, was the first person to come with the heliocentric theory and he based his ideas on the works of the Greeks. Copernicus, was one of the first to question the medieval concept of a geocentric universe, which was based on the cosmological ideas of Aristole that stated that earth was the center of the universe and the planets revolved around the earth in perfect concentric circles.

It is important to note that Copernicius only had a theoretical argument for a heliocentric theory and since he was timid by nature, he did not publish his ideas. Copernicius was afraid of ridicule and the fact that he simply did not wish to lock horns, with the Roman Catholic Church. The Protestant Reformation had occured in the life time of Copernicus and as he was establishing his theoretical arguments on the heliocentric theory, he was aware that the church had zero-tolerance for heretical ideas.

Hence, he kept his theories to himself and never made them public.

Copernicus' ideas would be taken by a Danish astronomer by the name of Tyco Brahe. Brahe was interested in the heliocentric theory and he would build a private observatory on an island in the North Sea and from there, for the next twenty years, he religiously documented the motion of the planets and the stars. Brahe, basically laid the foundation for Galileo's works, because his documentation allowed for the exact prediction of the planetary motions and in fact, his data/observations/measurements were so accurate that it was easy to predict the location of a planet or a star on a given day and on a given hour!

Brahe, also did not publish his works either, but Brahe had an assistant by the name of Johannes Kepler. Kepler would take the work of Brahe and would construct the first mathematical model of a heliocentric universe. This model was quite similar to the theoretical ideas of Copernicus, but unlike Copernicus; Kepler had mathematical evidence to support his theories.

Kepler was a contempory of Galileo and both were aware of each other's works and in fact, there was a sustained correspondence between them. Consequently, Galioleo was aware of Kepler's work. In this sense, Galileo gets the credit for discovering the heliocentric theory, because he was the first one to point a telescope to the heavens and confirm Kepler's theories based on the astronomical observations of Brahe, which were inspired by the works of Copernicus.

Unlike, Copernicus or Brahe or even Kepler, Galileo published his observations in a book called the Starry Messenger, in which he discredited the concept of the geocentric universe. For his audacity in refuting the Bible and the biblical concept of the geocentric universe, Galileo was dragged before the Inquistion and under torture, was forced to recant. After recanting, Galileo left his home town, and once away, he restated that his ideas were right and the church was wrong literally thumbing his nose at the church!

Galileo's simple claim to fame is that he was the first one to publish the idea; the concept about a heliocentric theory, even though his fame and acclaim was based on the accumulated the works of Kepler, Copernicus and Brahe.

Galileo simply confirmed the Copernican theory of a heliocentric universe and that is why he is generally credited with it; though historicans know that his work was the final culmination of the process that was started by Copernicus and carried on by Brahe and Kepler.

Hope this helps.

Ciao

ferozk #44 That was truly an informative post, so thanks for taking the time to write it up.

The more one thinks about it, the more one realizes this central thesis and antithesis of human history, namely scientific advancement on the one hand (as in case of understanding the true relationship of the earth, sun, and the planets) vs. the vehement resistance of the close-minded (as in case of the catholic church in this case).

I wonder how much damage has been done to humanity as rational thinking and logic and common sense are suppressed in favor of "islamic ideology" or "church ideology" or some other superstition that the close-minded cling to.

Yet another feeble attempt on philosophical issues by this third rate writer who is completely unaware of what he is talking about.

pervez says;

(((The amazing thing about ideas is that we start thinking of them as if they are real when, in fact, they may be purely abstract and live only as mental constructs. In that sense, they are wholly disconnected with reality. Nevertheless, they are extremely important because they become part of, and indistinguishable from, our thinking processes.1. SOME TERRIFIC IDEAS
Numbers make for a wonderful example. We humans have done better than birds and monkeys because we can do math, i.e. deal with numbers, and this is part of our mental machinery. But numbers are abstractions; they are “mere” ideas. They appear to have an existence but only because our minds can conceive of certain objects that, on our insistence, obey certain rules. The numbers 1,2,3,… do not exist in a physical sense. Yes, you can point to one apple, two apples, three apples, .… and they have a manifest physical existence. But the numbers 1,2,3… exist only in your brain. They obey the rule, abstracted from experience with apples, that 1+1=2 and 2+1=1+2=3, etc. Even if there were no apples in the universe – or even a single electron or quark – there would still be an infinite number of numbers provided there was a (hypothetically non-material) mind in which they could live. ))))


Most of you guys might be unaware of the context what he is asserting in this paragraph. For him some ideas are independent of any social (even psychological) process and conditioning. This is a ridiculously feeble attempt to refute the claim of the 'sociology of knowledge' and 'psychogenesis of knowledge'. I can guarantee you all here that he is not aware of even the basics of
the methodology of SOK(sociology of Knowledge) and the context SOK 'reduce' ideas into social factors.

When we apply 'Sociological reduction' or for that matter any kind of 'reduction'(in the technical sense) we cannot pick and choose only because the greatest intellectual of Pakistan pervez hoodlum bhoy does not want to reduce all kind of ideas. The very notion of 'reduction' implies the reduction of all entities.

He(pervez) thinks that mathematical entities are abstract and independent of any social conditioning(fair enough it is a serious view) but the problem is with his pick and choose approach...If at all you want to apply reductionist method there is no way on this earth that you would save mathematical entities in that process.

If ideas require a 'non-material' mind to reside in than how would you justify that ''non-material'' entity with your materialistic approach? He has completely ignored a very important issue as well i.e. the problem of the’ existence' wedded to this issue of numbers. I am sure he is completely unaware of that else he would not have written this piece of BS.

At the sometime he believes in physiological reductionism. Even in the physiological reductionism you have to reduce all entities there. There is an ultimate kind of paradox we have to face here. He has borrowed this distinction
b/w the mathematical entities and other ideas (social etc)by a group of Sok who tried to save the objectivity of science and mathematic as well as the validity of SOK but failed miserably. They wanted to avoid the paradoxes emerging from pan-reductionism which had exploded any physiological reductionism based on theory of evolution and the modern physics. The whole of structure of science as an ultimate form of knowledge becomes meaningless in either way.

It was a pathetic effort by those people like the writer who are strongly anti religion and don’t miss any chance to let it and its followers let down even by producing this kind of shit.

This Man is out to create awareness in people...Gosh.

tahmed writes "And all this is one sentence!! I indeed lack the brains to understand what you are trying to say. "

Not only do you lack the brains to fully understand the thought in that sentence (which has nothing to do with space aliens- so quit that BS distraction), you also lack the morals that would necessitate that you accept the truth and don't respond to it with BS.

Masadi #47

Of course Masadi,
The rest of the world lacks the brains and the intellect to even begin to appreciate your BS about outlandish theories regarding the evil elite.

Tahmed has 100 times more brain and morals than you have.

But then, Tahmed has never been kicked out of any country or university.
Also, Tahmed has never been published on lulu.com.

In your eyes, and yours alone, Tahmed is not as qualified as you are.

Perhaps, the singlemost important fact, that the rest of the world regards you as a pontificating idiot, is lost on you so completely.

Masadi, wake up.....

Tahmed writes "And if you have chelas who can explain the words of the great sage, I am all ears.."

I don't have "chelas", only that those two people I mentioned have more brains than you can possess in two lifetimes, and so their help should be sought by you in translating concepts that even a high school dropout should be able to understand (but you don't). Regarding the "I am all ears.." claim, I agree, amidst all the hollow space in between your "ears", you really are "all ears"...

Re: Okhla #48, whatever I am or am not, nobody believes your BS here anymore, and whatever I have "produced" is still better than your masterpiece of "fun day at fishing". People can factually see what you have produced, what tahmed has produced and what my production has been on Chowk and elsewhere.... don't be jealous, just shut up and learn if you cannot produce work of equal calibre...

Chaltahai writes "Masadi, Unicef just reported that the children of this world are better off...."

As usual you speak through an orfice that is not associated with thinking. You need to ask why the miserable condition of children to begin with in a world where there are enough resources to prevent the deprivation related deaths, you need to ask why the basic amount needed to prevent those was not made available by the countries involved even though "debt servicing" and military expenditures far exceeded that basic amount. You also need to note that disease related deaths have caused most of this so-called "improvement". And certainly with these things in mind, no slogans of USA, USA are justified given that it was dead-last among all the developed countries in indicators of child health and poverty...

Let me quote the analysis of the report for your "dumb a$$" mind:

"In 1993, Unicef estimated that $25 billion a year in extra resources would be enough to meet the basic needs of every man, woman and child for adequate food, safe water, pri-mary health care, family planning and basic education. That relatively small injection of money has not materialized, and international aid is at its lowest level in 20 years.

Developing countries spend more on debt servicing and armed services than on these basic needs, and little more than 6 percent of the $40 billion international bilateral aid actually goes to the social sector. Thus, much of the funds required could be found by reallocating existing resources."

and

"The rankings only highlight what was already clear about how poorly too many children fare in this country. Infant mortality is still at unacceptably high levels. The number of children living in poverty remains large and daunting. Too many children lack access to health care they desperately need. The U.S. was dead last among the countries on children's health and safety, based on infant mortality, vaccinations for childhood diseases, deaths from injuries and accidents before age 19, and whether children reported fighting or being bullied"

Re: tahmed32 # 45

Good question!

It is hard to say because the damage is probably more than the negation of rationalism and logic and it can easily be measured in the bonzai learning, which is the end result when religion dominates the curriculum.

The issue in the 1500s, as it is now, was that religion has to be taken on blind faith and religion cannot be reconciled with secular ideas, because that raises the question of justification and proof of evidence in support of an idea. When confronted with this dilemma, the usual tactic is for religion to "place a round peg in a square hole" in the sense that religion assumes a secular argument to support a thesis is essentially one of faith and when it does so, it puts itself at par with secular ideas and invites a comparsion and critique of its ideas, but is not willing to tolerate the criticism as much as it wants to dominate the debate on the basis of an assumed reverance to its ideology.

Secondly, religion in the ultimate sense is about power and religion will automatically resist those ideas, which it cannot refute because such ideas pose a direct challange to its own power. The power of a religion, over a people, comes from the acceptance of its ideas on blind unquestioning faith and when a particular faith is questioned, the institutional response is invaribly not to defend the faith, but to prevent the erosion of institutionalized power of the religion itself.

The greatest threat to a religion is marked by that moment, when people start to question its basic dogmas and the religion has no answer except rationalizations that do not reflect the realism of the reasons, which prompted the questions in the first place.

The European experience, in this regard hints towards three developments, which are starting to emerge in the Islamic world also. One, is that the failure to answer questions involves an added emphasis being placed on rituals and ceremonies and reliance on the hierarchies of clerical bureaucracies (priests, rabbis and mulvis etc)while at the same time, elements of hypocrisy start to enter the religious philosophies, whereby the acts and practices of a religion and its followers are at odds, with the message and the teachings of the religion itself.

Secondly, there is an increased practice of what might simply be called common piety by the people, when people disenchanted with message of a religion and finding it to be of no value in their daily lifes, start to assmilate religious ideas within their own social and cultural experiences and follow their own methods of worship at expense of worshipping in congreations in an organized manner as mandated by a particular religion or a church.

Third; when a religion is confronted with these developments, it will first seek to answer their questions by means of non-religious arguments; seeking to blend religion with the prevailing logic and if this fails, it will use brute force. The interesting aspect of the use of force, by any religion in defence of its doctrine, is not to force recantations upon the people, who have already left the fold, but to prevent those within in the religion, who might have doubts, from expressing those doubts in public.

The end game is to still retain the secular power of the religion over a people, because the religious bureaucracies are quite intelligent to realize that "power maintained is power retained".

Change will happen, when the people start to question the religious bureaucracies to explain, how their actions which are at odds, with tenets of a religion actually advance the cause of the religion itself and do not start to judge the answers on a religious reason, but on the reasons of proof and evidence of a secular nature.

It is generally the lack of answer to this question, which starts the process of a reformation in a religion. The present debate within Islam is not that different from the debate that was happening in Europe in the 1400s on the role of the church in politics and the role of the priests in the daily lives of the people.

The only difference in the Islamic world today and the Europe of 1400s/1500s, and a crucial one, is that arrival of the printing press and development of vernacular languages, was allowing for the translation of the Bible, which was in Latin, into the vernacular langages, whereby the people could actually read and understand the words of the Bible. Once people read the Bible and understood it, they realized that what the priest had been preaching them was a politically inspired version of the religion and that the vast majority of the priest had no knowledge of Latin itself, but had memorized certain Latin phrases, which they used in their sermons without even understanding what they had memorized.

It was for this reason that the Catholic Church did not allow for the translation of the Bible into the vernacular, because it knew that it would raise a host of questions, for which the answers would be problematic at the best and simply contradictory at the worst.

Hence, the greatest contribution of Martin Luther to the reformation of the religion, in Europe, was not the posting of the 95 Theses (demands for reform) but the translation of the Latin based Bible into German.

This is where the similarity ends between Europe of yesterday and the Islamic world of today.

Ciao

ferozk #52 You central point, namely that religion has in history been more about temporal power than about spiritual faith, is on the mark. I think the european experience that you describe, while accurate and relevant, is slightly different from the path we can expect muslim societies to follow.

That is:

1. The status of the maulvi in muslim society is considerably lower than that bishops, cardinals and even parish priests in european society (where they constituted the "third estate" after royalty and nobles). While the church in the 1500's was a vast, financially independent (due to the tithe) corporation, maulvis in muslim countries are more like "khokha shops", albeit with access to vast sums the past 10-20 years from Saudis and from the Pakistan government particularly under Zia.

2. Reformers in 1500's europe lived in a vastly different world compared to the world the muslim societies are in today. That is, today, the rest of the world has i. already progressed several steps ahead in terms of the rule of law and in terms of respect for scientific inquiry as opposed to mere superstitions; ii. knowledge of this situation outside muslim countries is freely disseminated via the tv, internet, and large scale emigrations and labor movements. Even in the most remote villages now, people are aware that there is a path - i.e. modern education - to a better life for their children. 1500 AD europeans on the other hand lived in a world where the lights went out at sundown and everyone knew his place in the social order.

Put these together, and I would suggest that we will find muslim societies breaking free from this mode of superstitions, as the saying goes, much faster than one expects. And without the kind of sacrifices paid by people like savanarola (burnt on the stake), or tyndale (translated the Bible into english from latin, thus taking away the priests bs and allowing the population to see for themselves what the Bible had to say).

There will probably always be some form of religion as long as humans are destined to die. We will probably see loudspeakers replaced with some kind of muslim televangelists in the years ahead. But they will probably not have any greater audience among muslims than christian televangelists do among christians in the US. There is already an egyptian fellow doing the rounds in the US who is clean-shaven, wears a business suit, talks about peace and brotherhood and interfaith harmony as being the Islamic message - and I understand he has gained vast audiences among arab muslims in the US. Perhaps this is the what we will see more and more of in the coming years. Stay tuned... :-)

re: tahmed32

Yes, and that was the final thought of post too.

The Muslim experience will be different, but the process which is underway seems to be more similar than it is different.

Ciao

dear pervez, you have mentioned higher education. i wish to comment on that.hec is replete with funds for research, and wants research to be nothing but high quality, and has taken adequate steps to ensure that. which is as it should be. even so, it seems to come down hard on the well established traditional institutes, by stopping the funds for ongoing research programs, because of the involvement of its faculty members in @plagiarism@. the most modern requirements for research have come in a little too quick, for some of the senior professors. their trying to keep step with and then go forward seem lopsided and a little awkward. one is reminded of the scene of annual sports day of ones college. when senior professors are asked to participate in popular events, and they do so amply exhibiting their sporting spirit, to set an example, to encourage the shy student to follow and take part in sports. such professors were cheered and lauded, although the spectators could not help being amused. now if suddenly the picture changes and these venerable people are accused of cheating, will it not stun and cast into gloom all cocerned?hec otta spare no effort, time and money to set the record straight. make the transition from the slow traditionist to quick ultra modern research more easy and acceptable. allow re-experiment, re-research and correction of statistics, and total excision of plagiarism, and replacement by genuine research terminology. the fair name of the senior saff should be cleared of all smear and they would be allowed to retire in grace and dignity.

Re: # 2

Good points.
Also, the good prof has not mentioned why any pakistani should pursue higher education? hes mainly talked about what initiatives the govt should take to promote it.

i think many pakis are confused and see no advantage watsoever to pursue higher education in the first place. all they are concerned with is getting a degree so they can get a job. it would be nice if mr. hoodhboy could give them a reason why.

my friend, clearly looks like uve been reading some philosophy from all ur blabbering abt SOK and other such technical terms.
the profs paper wasnt about philosophy, he put his ideas down in very simple words for everyone to understand.
u on the other hand have tried to use all these fancy terms and such and end up making no sense at all.

so please think twice before u start accusing ppl of being 'strongly anti religion and don’t miss any chance to let it and its followers let down even by producing this kind of shit'

respectfully offered.

Salam!
I think Dr. Pervez has given the exact pecture and his idias about the higher education in Pakistan, the only reson for that he himself is teaching in Pakistan and he know the Picture clearly.
He is now the chairman of Deptt.of Physics at QAU and we hope he will take some initiatives to bring his Deptt. to his level of thought.
Being a student I wish him best of luck!!!!!
Aqeel A. Zia

University education is not an isolation. The entire process of learning starts at family level and gradually matures in school, college and university. As per my understanding, moral upbringing and schooling has greater influence in shaping the life of a person than University. Change the society and moral value, the people will create good universities.

Is this guy the spokesperson for the progressive Pakistani??

tsk tsk .. he has got the stick from the wrong end .. we need educated people, we need Universities but before that we need work at the demand side, mate. All our nation cares about is how they can get the new nokia mobile and stuff like that.
We need a cultural revolution and the kind of University students he is talking about they wont be interested in such a revolution .. they fantasize about the greener pastures in the west ..
His understanding of social change is very elitist .. we need work at the grass roots .. we have the individuals but not the correct orientation towards civic responsibility.
... i think this is the modern desease .. more is better ..
If the western Universities were so adept at churning out revolutionaries all the pakis who go to them would not end up in anal professions: bankers, lawyers etc.
Anyways .. I have had enough of his progressive ideas.