The need for De-Bhuttofication of the Pakistan People's Party

#179

"My Counter Punch to illiterate Farzana Versey:

”(http://www.counterpunch.org/versey09142007.html)

1. It may have a majority of Hindus, but then it has a majority of illiterates.

CP: India's literacy rate is well over 61%. Is 39% is majority? Joker!”


I tried to read this rebuttal. Alas, after just a few lines, I realized that this person is really really deficient.

In response to illiterate comment he responded, “Indian literacy rate is 61%”
This gadhaa does not even know the difference between illiterate and literacy!

Okay here is how it goes: This very very ch***a adds to the Indian literacy numbers but he is clearly illiterate…..heheheheh!~

tahmed32 post 193#
"So, what you say begs the question: Why did south indians realize the value of modern education (as per your illustration) earlier than bangalis or pakistanis or north indians, and thus have significantly higher literacy rates at time of independence of south india?"

I do not think the literacy gap between Northern and Southern states was that high at the time of independence. The difference may be few points. But the gap did increase post independence.

I think this has to do with multiple reasons.
1. Relative stable economies in parts of South, particularly in fertile regions.
2. There is no strong presence of feudalism. There were feudals but they were few.
3. Colleges established by the British.
4. Colleges/Schools established by the state governments.
5. Parents desire to see their sons as doctors and engineers. I still do not understand this, this trend is much higher in South than North.

All of you Pakistanis celebrating the establishment of Pakistan as the escape mechanism for Indian Muslims, please read and respond to the following:

Why wouldn't Indian Muslims leave India to live in Pakistan/Bangladesh?
Submitted by Desh on 2007, August 11 - 3:07pm.
Tags: India | Religion

Dr. Muthuswamy, the author of the book "The Art of War on Terror" argued in his comments to my last post that Indian land mass and resources were after all divided and 25% was taken away by the Muslims. And in both the areas, the minorities - specifically the Hindus - were either thrown out or converted or simply finished off. You can also add Kashmir now - where a systematic religious cleansing was undertaken by the Jehadis and the Indian Hindus did NOTHING! So, he argues, why give any reservations to Muslims at all? If they are poor in India - it must be their "doing". I agree with him on this. Like I have said early too - I was part of the study done in UP on Minorities (Muslims) economic and social development. And our findings clearly stated that Muslims are in the throes of the fundamentalist and useless madrasa education. Until they get out of that - I do not see any improvements!

Here is another post from Indian Muslims site - which was interesting. IN many areas, Muslims are discriminated against and not given the opportunity to live in certain apartment complexes. I do agree that the discrimination against the Muslims is really undesirable in the context of Indian ethos. But for a moment, let us assume this was Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. Would such a question be even raised?? If a Hindu was denied residence - would that tantamount to discrimination?? Would any one talk about it? Why not?

Now, let me take you to another constant rant of the Shiv Sainiks to Muslims - "Go to Pakistan" they say. That is again undesirable - within the ethos of the Indian values. But again, it happens EVERYDAY in Pakistan and Bangladesh. Is that even a question there? Why not?

How come that even though we belong to the same heritage and race and forefathers still the ETHOS of Pakistan-Bangladesh and India are inherently assumed to be so different? What made it so different?

Now, given the stuff above, let me ask an exploratory (not a rhetoric of Shiv Sainiks) - Why would an Indian Muslims NOT leave India for Pakistan or Bangladesh? Why would they want to stay in India? What makes India - despite (or because?) of its Hindu Majority a better option versus Pakistan or Bangladesh?

Ok, lets ask another corollary - if India did become a majority Muslim and lost the Hindu majority status - would it still have the same appeal to the Indian Muslims???

I would now follow this question with another one - Is a society run as an "Islamic" society even worth living and dreaming in? Dreams need freedom and diversity.

And I am talking of all hues of Muslims here - Ahmediyas, Shias, Aga khanis etc. If you are an Ahmediya - would you want such a society which is built as an Islamic society?

What is it about Islam that makes societies built on its religious precepts un-liveable by anyone BUT the fundamentalists? This question is NOT a rant but a serious question! It needs deep and thorough - and above all DISPASSIONATE introspection.

masadi: so you are being abusive again. no problem.

SRK #184 Thanks for your putting a very human face to this issue with your very interesting write-up of your own family's experience. The basic point that you so beautifully make is obviously the thirst for education, the willingness to make sacrifices in your family - to the extent of selling land - so the children might get educated.

So, what you say begs the question: Why did south indians realize the value of modern education (as per your illustration) earlier than bangalis or pakistanis or north indians, and thus have significantly higher literacy rates at time of independence of south india?

I know that partial answer in case of muslims is resistance of the maulvis to western education (and sir syed was abused by them and called a kafir for encouraging muslims to get western education). But what about the hindus of bengal and north india generally? Why did they have lower literacy rates at time of partition than south indians.

PS: What you relate is, btw, is not limited to South India - at least not today. I think people the world over now realize that they can improve their lives through education.

Thus, while what you indicate about Bengal may have been true until the mid-20th century, that is no longer the case: the micro-credit revolution in particular has shown Bangladeshis that the path to improve their lot is - education. I will always remember the time I went inside the homes of the poorest villagers in Bangladesh (who were good enough to permit me to enter and see for myself their living conditions), and in one room I say a teenaged boy sitting on the dirt floor of his one-room house with a pile of books in front. In Pakistan, today people in even the remotest villages are aware of the opportunities provided by education (particularly female education) and this is a sea-change from just 20 years ago. There is no doubt resistance from maulvis who see any appreciation of western education as anathema - but I dont think people take the maulvis as seriously inside pakistan as he is taken in world capitals.

ps #191: I took 1:7 population disparity. does not matter to illustrate the point.

Pakistani students
Undergraduate 488
Graduate 32

Indian students
Undergrad Students 662
Grad Students 102
---------------

manto, It is interesting math...and actually the above data goes against your point.

Let us compensate/adjust the above data for size populations they come from.
but before that, it clearly shows that there are lot more Pakistani student at York unviersity than indian students (whatever one wants to interpret from that)

662 indian students for 1000 million
that means 1/7th of that for 150 million (population equivalent to pakistan)

that means 94 Indian students (from 150 million Indian pop)
while 488 pakistani students from 150 million Pakistani pop

that means for every 5 pakistani at York university if we will encounter 1 Indian student after compensating for parent population size.
since Indian muslims are 15% of total population

we should see 1 Indian muslim student for 35 pakistani students at York univ.
when you said 1 indian student for 25 pakistani students you were underestimating.

Giani,

I dont know much abt her personally but her articles gave enuf focus on her immaturity as a commenatator.

Giani,

I dont know much abt hpersonally but her articles gave enuf focus on her immaturity as a commenatator.

Look at the hatred these hindus have for a muslim woman like farzana just beacuse she pointed out that Premji is a flash in the pan and not representative of the bias against muslims from the lowest to the highest level. you can see that in the statistics that the indian govt itself publishes. Even premji was able to rise bacause he likes to hide his identity infact you can see th poor man is so frightened of the hindus consantly pointing out that he is a muslim that he has started lashing out.

his fear is so great that he refuses to give holidays even on Eid in his company lest he be considered communal, fie on this murdood or should i have sympathy for this terrorsied soul.

This is the reason Jinnah had to have Pkistan so middle class, rich or poor muslims would not live in fear of their identity and most importantly for preservation of muslim culture look at what level they have reduced muslim's from the treatment of their language Urdu.

So much hate these injuns have they would not even share fod infact they would not even let muslims enter their kitchen or their presence when eating food, if a muslim ate they would break that plate rather than use it again and they talk of one country, disgusting. Even gandhi said their should be no interdining and no intermarriage, that shudhi or reconversion movementin Punjab by aryasamaj was appropriate, Gandhi was actually supoorting Arya samaj and hindu mahasabha, compare this with the tolerant behaviour of muslims and jinnah

laanat hai is hindu qaum pey

#169 Posted by MantoLives on September 17, 2007 3:39:09 am


Let us use York University Canada


Lets compare the numbers in the US...Canada only exists because the US has minimum standards..

The visa numbers clearly show you're wrong...compare the number of students in the top tier schools and the comparison makes pakis look even worse...

heck..take a look at the faculty in top tier schools...you can't swing a dead cat without hitting an Indian prof...OTOH, there are more dead cats in top US schools than paki profs...

Re: # 179
VRV,

I would not get too upset. I think she is undergoing a mid life crisis. Though I am glad Farzana has come out. She was in the closet too long.

giani

The following is for the Manto's reading pleasure.

(from a web page belonging to the Institute of International Education, http://opendoors.iienetwork.org/?p=25086)

Comments from Prof. Jane E. Schukoske, Executive Director, U.S. Educational Foundation in India (USEFI), New Delhi, regarding the release of Open Doors 2006:

“The U.S. continues to be the international destination of choice for Indian students, who comprise the largest number of international students in the U.S. for the fifth consecutive year in 2005-06, according to Open Doors 2006. Indian students and their parents know that U.S. higher education prepares graduates for tomorrow’s careers. Though the number of Indian students enrolled in U.S. institutions in 2005-06 declined from the previous year to 76,503, it is still 14% over the 2001-02 enrollment level of 66,836. Looking ahead, we see that there have been 24,622 visas issued to Indian students in the year ending September 30, 2006, and a 32% increase in 2006 graduate enrollments by Indian students reported by the Council of Graduate Schools. These are positive signs.”

“The strong Indo-U.S. relationship, illustrated by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s July 2005 visit to the U.S. and President Bush’s March 2006 visit to India, encourages Indian students pursuing excellence in higher education to continue to enroll in U.S. colleges and universities. The word that the student visa system is functioning smoothly has reached Indian students, dispelling concerns that had arisen after 9/11.”

“We can expect to see Indian students enrolling in a larger number of U.S. institutions in the coming years. Institutions seeking to internationalize their campuses will naturally desire a cross-section of international students from a number of countries. Top university delegations coming to recruit in India often comment that they are not seeking more Indian students for their campuses, as many have a good representation of Indians already, but they are competing for the best Indian students with other U.S. institutions.”

“2006 has been declared the “Year of Study Abroad” by the U.S. Senate, which recognized that “studying abroad exposes students from the United States to valuable global knowledge and cultural understanding and forms an integral part of their education”. U.S. Educational Foundation in India (USEFI) is delighted to see that 1,767 U.S. students – an increase of 53% over the prior year – came to India, according to the report in Open Doors 2006. It is quite an achievement for India to have become the 20th leading destination for U.S. study abroad. As noted in the article “Destination India” in the Fall 2006 issue of IIE Networker, educators are realizing that the “New India” offers many important opportunities for study of contemporary development, environment, and the economy, as well as India’s multi-religious, multi-cultural democracy and rich history. USEFI sees increasing numbers of U.S. business schools bringing students to India to expose their students to the global business activity in the IT sector. The U.S. Department of State’s 2006 National Strategic Language Initiative, which includes Hindi and Urdu as strategic languages, will provide additional impetus to the growing numbers of U.S. students in India.”

The presence of the British certainly seems to have helped. But I do not think that is the only reason. If this is the only reason Bengal should have been the fountain head of the Indian IT and Industrial revolution. I think my grand parent’s generation had a lot to do with this.

I am not a social scientist to give a concrete reason. But here is my take on it.

What I am going to tell is from my observation of my family, my wife’s family and some of my friend’s families. Most of South Indian economy was based on agriculture and this was dependent on Monsoon season. Basically my great grand parents and grand parents livelihood was dependent on rain gods. Sir Arthur Cotton changed that and he helped in the construction of number of water dams in south. After which the people living in those areas have continuous supply of water for farming which improved their economic status. Now with some extra money in their hands my grand parent’s generation started sending their sons to schools/colleges instead of sending them to the fields. My grand parents had 2 daughters and one son (my dad). They sent him to college and then to medical college in Nagpur (paid capitation fee). My father could not finish the medical school because of some health reasons and came back after which he completed BSc. My grand parents were very frugal but they never hesitated to spend money on my father’s education. They sold some land from the little they owned. Some of my grand parent’s cousins did not take this risk and to this day I can see the impact with no engineer or doctor in their families. To put things in perspective, my grand parents were barely literate.

I saw similar story repeating in most of my family, my wife’s family and friend’s families. Though my father never completed medical school many of my father’s cousins completed medical and engineering schools. Eventually some of these people in my father’s generation became role models for others in the families. Personally I believe this trickle down effect contributed to the parents wanting to make their kids either an engineer or doctor. And I believe this holds true for most of the upper castes who were the land owners. This trickle down effect continued to the backward castes also. They saw the benefits of modern education and started sending their kids to professional colleges and with the help of reservations they also contributed lot to IT industry. My father-in-law, who is an asst professor in an engineering college, tells me that the students from the backward caste communities are really doing well and a good number of them are in the top 20%.

Combining my grand parents generations thirst for the education with the Southern governments push for professional education (medicine & engineering) eventually resulted in producing large number of engineers and doctors by early 90’s. But South India does not have enough industrial base to absorb all these new engineering grads. Some engineering grads moved to US for doing their masters and most ended up doing masters in Computer Science. As for the ones who chose to stay in India, most of these engineers are very good at math and analytical skills which is a primary requirement for any good IT engineer. Then Y2K opened the gates for anyone who can do programming. So everyone started learning courses like mainframe programming, Oracle, Java, C++ etc in private institutions for 6 months and the budding industry grabbed them without much hesitation.

PS: When I was young I used to think my grand parents are too stingy but only after coming to US and thinking hard about them I started appreciating their sacrifices. I am eternally grateful for the sacrifices they have made for our well being. University fee for my education in US was paid after selling the land my father inherited from them.

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srk #180 good post. The reason the IT revolution pulled up the indian economy from its "vicious cycle of underdevelopment" was that India was well suited to supply a key demand created by the IT revolution, namely individuals literate in the english language who could then translate requirements provided by business analysts into computer code. This provides the root explanation of why south india has done better than north india and pakistan in benefitting from the IT revolution: South India at time of partition had literacy rates, particularly in the english language, that were already far higher than those in the north. The reason for this, seems to me, is primarily explained by the fact that the british were in south india for over a century longer than they were in north india.

Correct me if I am mistaken.