The need for De-Bhuttofication of the Pakistan People's Party

My post #180 is in response to Manto's post 159.

Manto,
I am not sure if this reply was for my post. I do agree that there will be more Pakistani Muslims than Indian Muslims in IT and in Universities. What i was trying to say in response to Bulleyas post is, the Indian Muslim presence in IT industry and in US is not exactly 0. There are Indian Muslims in IT but you will not find them in proportionate to their general numbers (15% of Indian population).

I have been living here in the valley for the last 4 years and before that I was in Chicago area and in both places i have met handful of Indian Muslims.

Forget about the numbers based on religion, take the numbers based on Hindu Castes and region. You will find most of the Indians in US IT industry to be from South India. Particularly Tamilnadu and Andhra. I have met SW engr's from Punjab, Gujarat, Delhi, Bombay and few from Bengal. I have never met anyone from Bihar, Orissa, MP, UP, Rajastan (Hindu or Muslim). 80% of Indian Muslims i met are from South.

Basically, the South caught up with the IT industry much ahead of North where a good number of Indian Muslims live. This may explain why there seems to be a fewer number of Indian Muslims.

My Counter Punch to illiterate Farzana Versey:

(http://www.counterpunch.org/versey09142007.html)

1. It may have a majority of Hindus, but then it has a majority of illiterates.

CP: India's literacy rate is well over 61%. Is 39% is majority? Joker!

2. He had money to get a decent education and he had the spirit of enterprise. Hindu India did not contribute to these, neither did Muslims. It is an individual achievement.

CP: Disjointed stuff. What effing Hindu India, Muslim India didnt contribute? Plain hate.

3. It is unfortunate that Muslims are being made accountable for aspects of life that would under normal circumstances not identity them with religion.

CP : Why it's unfortunate when Aizm is praised (u resent such epithets like Muslim billionaire in Hindu India) for his aspect as Muslim billionaire? Joekeraani.

4. What is resented is the fact that in a country where most of the 150 million people of the community are ghettoized,.....

CP: With an exception of Gujarat, there's no ghettoisation of Muslims. Plain hate is evient here. I hope she's not living in Dharavi. Even in Dharavi ppl of all religions live together.

5. On any given day there will be a handful of Muslims taken out of the celebrity closet to reveal the mothballed magnanimity of the majority community.

CP: Why this obsession with the things that are Hindu and Muslim? Nobody is showcasing him, it's the foreign reporter who saw it in those terms. Ppl go abt their lives and some make it big and this unstable witch got stomach cramps for that. May be she cant tolerate any good press for India in this wrold.

6. No one wants Premji to stand up and be counted. But there is no reason for him to play along with this secular sham, and he has been doing so for a while.

CP: May be Azim need to grow a beard and wear skull-cap & say Alhamdolillah and that stuff & join Jamia Binoria and be ready to explode himself OR she want Indians to follow Pakistani brand of secularism?

The Chinese, Japanese and Russian stuff was asnwered to by Stuka.

Is this analysis/comentary or plain harted or as Sadna said on UP, 'hissy fits'?

Hari,

Yasser opened our eyes to this fact:

Pakistan is Japan.

India is Somalia

I think we must reconcile to this very fact.

Ref MantoLives #169

[But lets compare.... Pakistanis and Indians... pure and simple ... Let us use York University Canada as a run of the mill example because York publishes its international student statistics...

Pakistani students
Undergraduate 488
Graduate 32

Indian students
Undergrad Students 662
Grad Students 102

Now keep in mind that the population disparity is 1 to 9.
The York situation is reflected more or less in most schools around the US.]

Yasser, dear boy, York University or Rutgers for that matter is not the high-class university that most Indian students aspire to.

Also, most undergraduate programs do not offer scholarships. Most Indian students therefore get their bachelor's degrees in India and apply to US/Canada for their master's and doctoral degrees where there is a chance of getting financial assistance. Unlike the case of you or your wife, most Indians do not have Daddy Bigbucks paying for their education abroad.

The following is from BB’s biography on the internet. Anybody who has actually been imprisoned for her political views has sacrificed more than the MAJ ever did!

Benazir Bhutto

Political activist with the PPP, 1977-84; repeatedly imprisoned and kept under house arrest by the Pakistani government; political exile in London, England, 1984-86; returned to Pakistan in April, 1986; Pakistan co-chair, beginning in 1986; After elections held November 1988, invited to form the government, became Prime Minister in 1988 but her government was illegally dismissed in August 1990. She again came to power after her Party won a majority in elections held in October 1993. Her government was once again dismissed illegally in November 1996. Since then PPP under her leadership has been subjected to political persecution first by Nawaz's regime and then by Musharraf regime. The leadership faced all the difficulties with courage and has remained united under her leadership despite coercion and intimidation. The PPP could win the next elections under the leadership of Ms Benazir Bhutto.

#174
Rozaiba, please be fair. Mian Masadi is a (multiple times) published author on these chowk pages and should be accorded the same dignified treatment that the likes of the Mantolives take for granted.

#173 Majumdar
Zoom dada, tumi ekta kaaz koro, become roommates with Parthab!

Masadi writes:

"while my articles dealing with contemporary society and its many problems are censored? Please explain."

It is quite elementary my dear Watson. You still have not reached the intellectual calibre to warrant an article on Chowk FP. But I encourage you to keep reading more so that you broaden your horizons.

Cheers!

Romair,

It is difficult to paint What If scenarios but possibly what wud have happened is somewhere in between what Ranjit bhai said (something like all regions being almost equally developed) and what u and Manto have argued that the region wud have remained the boondocks of United India.

Electoral politics wud have secured development projects for NW India as it has done for other underdeveloped parts of resdiual India. Tarbela and other irrigation would have most likely happened given their strong economic rationale anyway.

In some ways though partition served the Paki Muslims well. They were lucky that they had to put up with socialism for only about 5-6 years when Da Bhoot was ruling them, while Indians had to put up with socialism for almost 40 years. Islaam may have hazar faults but one good thing is that it gives commie b******s and their stinking ideology the royal boot.

Regards

i think one needs to separate development into two parts, vis-a-vis partition and muslims:

1. the development of the geographic areas of what, today, constitutes pakistan, and the population of these areas - be they muslims or hindus etc.

2. the development of the muslims across india, as a whole

1. ....there is no doubt, at least in my mind, that the geographic areas that currently constitue west pakistan (sind, nwfp, punjab, baluchistan and kashmir) would have been significantly under-developed had partition not occured.....as mentioned earlier, it would not have made economic sense for a united india to invest in these areas; muslim or non-muslim.....

.....there would have been no islamabad, a tiny karachi, a tiny faisalabad, no plans for tarbela, mangla, bhasha and kalabagh dams.....no long list of universities and medical colleges.....little infrastructure of roads, hospitals, etc......one only needs to look at india under the british, circa 47 to see what would have happened........the british only used these areas as military outposts and cantonments, and recruitment.........other than lahore, there wasn't much.....some agriculture in punjab, not withstanding...

......in addition, the educated manpower of this area - muslim or otherwise, would have been sucked into the established or upcoming cosmopolitan urban centres of a united india - bombay, delhi, calcutta, bangalore etc......computer scients would have migrated from karachi and lahore to bangalore, rather than setting up something local.......

hardly any of the indian participants on chowk would have moved to cities in geographical pakistan, however quite a few of the pakistani chowk interactors (myself included) would be in the more cosmpolitan cities of present-day india......

2. now, did the muslims, as a whole, across south asia benefit from partition.......that is a different debate........i think one can say with certainity that the muslims in india did not benefit.......what about muslims in pakistan.....and muslims of bangladesh.....

so, there are two givens in my analysis:.......geographical area of pakistan benefited from partition, indian muslims lost out due to partition.......pakistani/bangladeshi muslims and muslims as a whole?.....as well as hindus/sikhs and indians as a whole (which is another debate).....

Lol Majumdar... have you seen Holy Grail in Monty Python? Masadi is very much the black knight from Monty Python.

[King Arthur music]
[music stops]
BLACK KNIGHT:
Aaaagh!
[King Arthur music]
[music stops]
BLACK KNIGHT:
Aaagh!
GREEN KNIGHT:
Ooh!
[King Arthur music]
[music stops]
[stab]
BLACK KNIGHT:
Aagh!
GREEN KNIGHT:
Oh!
[King Arthur music]
Ooh! Uuh.
[music stops]
BLACK KNIGHT:
Aaaagh!
[clang]
BLACK KNIGHT and GREEN KNIGHT:
Agh!, oh!, etc.
GREEN KNIGHT:
Aaaaaah! Aaaaaaaaah!
[woosh]
[BLACK KNIGHT kills GREEN KNIGHT]
[thud]
[scrape]
BLACK KNIGHT:
Umm!
[clop clop clop]
ARTHUR:
You fight with the strength of many men, Sir Knight.
[pause]
I am Arthur, King of the Britons.
[pause]
I seek the finest and the bravest knights in the land to join me in my court at Camelot.
[pause]
You have proved yourself worthy. Will you join me?
[pause]
You make me sad. So be it. Come, Patsy.
BLACK KNIGHT:
None shall pass.
ARTHUR:
What?
BLACK KNIGHT:
None shall pass.
ARTHUR:
I have no quarrel with you, good Sir Knight, but I must cross this bridge.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Then you shall die.
ARTHUR:
I command you, as King of the Britons, to stand aside!
BLACK KNIGHT:
I move for no man.
ARTHUR:
So be it!
ARTHUR and BLACK KNIGHT:
Aaah!, hiyaah!, etc.
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's left arm off]

ARTHUR:
Now stand aside, worthy adversary.
BLACK KNIGHT:
'Tis but a scratch.
ARTHUR:
A scratch? Your arm's off!
BLACK KNIGHT:
No, it isn't.
ARTHUR:
Well, what's that, then?
BLACK KNIGHT:
I've had worse.
ARTHUR:
You liar!
BLACK KNIGHT:
Come on, you pansy!
[clang]
Huyah!
[clang]
Hiyaah!
[clang]
Aaaaaaaah!
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right arm off]

ARTHUR:
Victory is mine!
[kneeling]
We thank Thee Lord, that in Thy mer--
BLACK KNIGHT:
Hah!
[kick]
Come on, then.
ARTHUR:
What?
BLACK KNIGHT:
Have at you!
[kick]
ARTHUR:
Eh. You are indeed brave, Sir Knight, but the fight is mine.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh, had enough, eh?
ARTHUR:
Look, you stupid bastard. You've got no arms left.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Yes, I have.
ARTHUR:
Look!
BLACK KNIGHT:
Just a flesh wound.
[kick]
ARTHUR:
Look, stop that.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Chicken!
[kick]
Chickennn!
ARTHUR:
Look, I'll have your leg.
[kick]
Right!
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's right leg off]

BLACK KNIGHT:
Right. I'll do you for that!
ARTHUR:
You'll what?
BLACK KNIGHT:
Come here!
ARTHUR:
What are you going to do, bleed on me?
BLACK KNIGHT:
I'm invincible!
ARTHUR:
You're a looney.
BLACK KNIGHT:
The Black Knight always triumphs! Have at you! Come on, then.
[whop]
[ARTHUR chops the BLACK KNIGHT's last leg off]

BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh? All right, we'll call it a draw.
ARTHUR:
Come, Patsy.
BLACK KNIGHT:
Oh. Oh, I see. Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!

Masadi sahib,

(the dead Church of MAJ )

There is of course this little matter of 97% approval rating in Pakistan and 46% in hostile India to be considered b4 pronouncing "Dead" verdict on MAJ (pbuh).

(even though he ran off like the Mullah Omar)

That's news to me. YLH is very much around.

(anyone who says that the Pakistani Muslims are doing well is out of his or her mind- )

Not only Pak Muslims but also B'deshis and Indians doing badly in varying degrees. But MAJ has little to do with it, it is mainly because of the faulty policies that the likes of the Nehru-Gandhis in India and the Bhoot in Pakistan pursued and that you seem to freak out on.

Regards

Regards

Dear Jayp,

The problem with you is that you are incapable of being honest. The comparison I drew is at the insistence of Indians here.

But lets compare.... Pakistanis and Indians... pure and simple ... Let us use York University Canada as a run of the mill example because York publishes its international student statistics...

Pakistani students
Undergraduate 488
Graduate 32

Indian students
Undergrad Students 662
Grad Students 102

Now keep in mind that the population disparity is 1 to 9.
The York situation is reflected more or less in most schools around the US.

Either way you guys suck.

One more question, why are these third rate "my dad can beat up your dad" type of articles by Manto, who has as his foremost concern worship of a dead, ugly man published so readily on Chowk while my articles dealing with contemporary society and its many problems are censored? Please explain. Is it because this High Priest of the dead Church of MAJ is on some dictatorial board of editors of this site, being given protection, even though he ran off like the Mullah Omar, his ideas and religion of MAJ defeated and debased?

By the way, long live the HP, masadi, ahmadmadani friendship for social justice...

Actually even though the High Priest of the dead Church of MAJ is declaring victory based on the "authority" of HP, look at him jump up and down, not a single one of my many points has been refuted thus far, in fact HP agrees in his post with most of what I wrote. There is one point of disagreement. He writes

"However, the point that we make is that instead of 150 mil, 450 mil would have been suffering in united India. the rivalry between the two communities was not solely the demand of Pakistan. It existed before the demand and the demand was the result of that rivalry."

Yes that was the main propaganda point of MAJ, the fact is fragmenting Muslim political power had a catastrophic effect on the Indian Muslim, the carnage that resulted as a direct consequence of the division, hiterto not seen in the united India, proves that that rivalry and its reaction got a major boost by the division event. Therefore it is impossible to ignore that event and then do a comparison between the Pakistani Muslim (who are suffering a great deal as all social indicators show, in literacy, health and life expectancy, infant mortality etc almost at par with the general Indian population), and the Indian Muslim that got converted to a 5th column minority thanks to the shenanigans of the MAJ. That the MAJ was popular I do not contest but popular he was due to invoking the external enemy (the same argument that you are using), religious exclusion and division- and he used these in a most hypocritical way. I am not interested in the person of ZAB. What I am interested in is he changed the discourse of the common folk from paternalistic, theological concerns to economic concerns- and you do not dispute this- that was by itself a revolutionary move, for which he has my respect. MAJ on the other hand caused a major catastrophie for the Muslims of India, not only did his excuse (which you reproduce and apparently accept)not materialize- anyone who says that the Pakistani Muslims are doing well is out of his or her mind- it helped the feudals and the colonials as is revealed very clearly by the history of this country up until ZAB and then from Zia onwards. Now, I am sure the Sunni of Iraq will make a similar argument about not being able to prosper under a Shia dominated Iraq, so then let us divide it up as the US wants, and so would the Kurds, where would you stop and how would the minority Shia in a Sunni region fare after such division- such divisions only help the colonials, we should stay clear of them. Hatred of one group by the other is only fueled by such divisions and helps no one....