The need for De-Bhuttofication of the Pakistan People's Party

Re: # 128

vrv,

....no blue label for you ! ........

#130 Posted by Ranjit

I appreciate your candor and that is something everyone should understand. Indian Muslims have suffered and their suffering continues.

However, the point that we make is that instead of 150 mil, 450 mil would have been suffering in united India. the rivalry between the two communities was not solely the demand of Pakistan. It existed before the demand and the demand was the result of that rivalry.

"Replacing this kind of mediocre talent should never have been a problem for the Muslims."

Despite several problems, a defective educational system and often blatant discrimination, Pakistan has replaced the mediocre talent from India many times over. And that a success that India or the Indian Muslims have failed to duplicate.

Re:HP
"Replacing this kind of mediocre talent should never have been a problem for the Muslims.....If Indians wants to keep their 150 Mil population down..."

HP, what I am saying is that in the post-partition subcontinent, the condition of minorities became dismal on both sides due to the partition holocaust. On Pakistan side, there were too few left to matter. On the Indian side, it was not a big deal for Indian muslims to replace the muslim talent that had left. But the indian muslims who woke up the next day after August 15, 1947, were shell shocked. They realized suddenly what had happened to them. They suddenly got demoted from being a co-equal community to becoming a hated, loathed minority with much fewer numbers. Just read Maulana Azad's poignant description of how Indian muslims felt just after partition. It has taken them decades to regain their footing after that.

Of course Indians hated muslims for partition for a long time. It would be dishonest to deny that. After all, we are human. If someone harms us in such a drastic manner, most of it without any real justification, it is natural to loathe them. I am sure muslims faced severe discrimination at that time to get jobs or education or whatever. The tide has turned on that as the memories of partition get foggier. Now everyone has a vested interest in the success of indian muslims.

#125 Posted by hamidm2 on September 16, 2007 6:31:13 pm
Re: # 122

hp,

"Can the current India accept a new country which is not based on religion?"


Hamid
If India did other wise you would be Indian and hosting party for south Indians as your Punjabi from Hindu side of the border.Now who do you want to thank more Jinnah for asking for it or INC for giving to you

hamid2 is a true Toba Tek Singh...neither theirs nor ours...a pseudo ID and a pseudo life.....what a waste.....ah! No! It's ur buffoonry that's useful.

hamid2 the funny buffoon,

Were blacks/goras in the US ur biraadari that u prefer to live there?

#113 Posted by anil on September 16, 2007 5:39:58 pm


Failure never overhelms into dejection, but is the best teacher for these successful.


If failure is a great teacher, Pakiland's utter failure to create the conditions for ONE BILLIONAIRE to rise up should give it the best teacher in the world..

It's a source of great discomfort to paki rears that India has created the conditions in which Premji has made himself into the second richest muslim in the world and the richest muslim in south asia...they can be in denial in their own circle of self-delusion but outside that echo chamber, the world sees it like it is and the pakis don't like what the world sees...

Re: # 122

hp,

"Can the current India accept a new country which is not based on religion?"

..... good point ... i could never figure out what makes india a nation .... what does a sideways head wagging idlee eating madrasi have in common with a fish eating bengali or a meat eating punjabi ?..... if it is not hindooism, what is it ? .... as far as i can tell, a punjabi from the wrong side of the border would rather spend his time with another punjabi from god's side of the border instead of wasting time with a keralite or tamilian from hanumanland .....

.....why, just the other day i was at an indian punjabi's house for dinner where i was the only punjabi guest - the rest were weird people from somewhere down south who spoke some strange language and had the oddest habits ..... as far as i was concerned they could have been from mars .....anyway...... the host had a well stocked bar which he had opened up for the janta - cheap tangureay and beefeater gin, cheap red label scotch, cheap jack daniels bourbon, cheap smirnoff vodka, middle of the road california wines and tons of cheap budweiser beer from sam's club ....... however, when i approached the bar, the host pulled me aside, winked and whispered, "i have some blue label in the basement, let's go" .... as we walked towards the basement door we both looked with disdain at the sambar eating riff raff sipping on their cheap whiskeys and vodkas ......... at that moment he and i realized we were part of the wrong nation ........ what a shame ..

#108 Posted by Ranjit

“Most Pakistanis including yourself, Manto and Romair keep asking this question and then compare Pakistanis with Indian Muslims to justify the benefits of partition.”

You have not grasped the essence of my question. The Educated Muslims who came to Pakistan and my emphasis is on education were not really laureates. Most of them were not highly educated. Some had barely done matriculation and they lacked professional qualifications in the true sense. Engineers were not graduate but had engineering diplomas and doctors were not MBBS either just a handful had some solid credentials. People make a lot out of the so-called Muslim elite. Majority was Aligarh educated and that was no where near the top in Indian schools before 1947. Their only qualification was that some of them already had jobs and some background in professions and that helped in Pakistan.

Replacing this kind of mediocre talent should never have been a problem for the Muslims.

Currently Aligarh supports more muslims than it ever did before 1947 Hence, my question.

"Why the Muslims in India have not recovered from a loss, minuscule in numbers, in the last 60 years?"

Secondly, Indian Muslims are an Indian problem. We only come in when people come up with ONE billionaire sh*t. If Indians wants to keep their 150 Mil population down and are happy with one token then it is their prerogative.

Ref bulleya #41

[......one needs to keep two points in mind, however.....the first is that jinnah and the muslim league never predicted kashmir......so in a sense that is where the problem started.....i would blame nehru for that, as jinnah and gandhi were ready to solve it on a plebescite (as was nehru at one point).......had kashmir not happened, i am 100% convinced pakistan and india would be like the eu of today....people would have been going back and forth easily, as if there were no border......]

Come on, Jinnah-bhai knew fully well what was happening in Kashmir. In fact, the man played it as well as he played the Partition card in the 1940s.

Months before Independencem Jinnah-bhai maneuvered to install Shaw Nawaz Bhutto as the diwan of Junagadh so that he could have Junagadh accede to Pakistan. Junagadh aceded to Pakistan on Aug 14, 1947 keeping India in the dark about its intentions. Jinnah-bhai accepted the accession with alacrity despite having agreed with India that in sensitive cases such as Junagadh, each country would consult with the other before making a final decision.

Jinnah-bhai, despite having signed a Standstill Agreement with Kashmir, stopped all civil supplies from reaching Kashmir. On top of that, not only did he allow armed infiltrators from Pakistan to invade Kashmir, he granted leave to Pak Army officers so that they could lead the invasion effort. He then ordered the Pak Army to assist the invading forces when India sent in its troops to assist the Kashmir Government, except that the British C-in-C told Jinnah-bhai that he would rather resign than have British officers of the Pak Army fight British officers of the Indian Army.

Read up on history. Jinnah-bhai was not the knight in shining armor on a white charger you imagine him to be. He was just a shyster lawyer who lost his case and had to take home a moth-eaten Pakistan where even he was not planning to live for long, planning to retire in his home in Bombay.

[the second point is that if one, specifically, wants to look at the condition of the individuals living in what constitutes pakistan today, one can safely say, they have benefited hugely from pakistan........this region was the boondocks of india......much of it was actually land taken from afghanistan, by the british.....it has almost zero universities, industry, education, etc........

......this region would have remained backwards, without pakistan, as the educated manpower of this geographical region would have migrated to delhi, bombay, and now bangalore etc.....making it even more backwards.......there would have been no reason to put up industry here, etc....there would be a little karachi, no islamabad, a little faisalabad....no large dams......other than a larger lahore, there would be nothing much west of it.......it would not have made economic sense for a united india, to invest in baluchistan, nwfp, sind and even in most of pakistan's punjab......]

You are describing Kerala in India. It has the highest rate of unemployment (despite near 100% literacy) and its people went all over India to find employment. Then they went off to the Persian Gulf where I believe they encounter a lot of your compatriots so that says something about the employment opportunities created by an independent Pakistan!

Among the first large factories India set up was a fertilizer factory in Sindri in Bihar which to this day remains the most backward state in India. That proves that Jwahirullah Nehru would have parceled out some industries to Balochistan and Sindh also.

#119 Posted by TOLKININ
"natinality based on State would be have been better than on Religion."

I have not seen your posts before so I apologize if my earlier reply was harsh. You make a good point and as a general rule that should always be the case. But the situation in India was different and still is. The uniqueness of the situation does not qualify it to be called improper. It was a unique political situation and needed some unique and creative political decisions. Those decisions were taken and all have to deal with that. The Congress never said no to Pakistan and agreed to the partition.

Would you have agreed to the partition if the Sindhis, Punjabis, Pathan, Bengali or the Baloch had asked for a separate country of their own outside of India?

Now obviously their claims would have been without the religion. Can the current India accept a new country which is not based on religion?

Re: # 108 Ranjit Sab... You have good posting.
Incidently Masadi is driving that point of creuel treatment of IM by MAJ. You are intelligent men and also masadi andboth come to same conclusion.

#112 harimau

"Yasser, dear boy, Jinnah wanted Hindus to remain in Pakistan so they would be hostages who would ensure good treatment of its Muslim minority by India. Those are Jinnah's own words."

More than that, he wanted to keep United Punjab and United Bengal as part of Pakistan. It was love of real estate and not love for Hindus or Sikhs that was behind Jinnah's kind gestures. Same love for real estate has driven Kashmir adventure with no end in sight.

If he had so much love for Hindus, why he had to usher in so much misery to so many Punjabis, Bengalis and even to his own Indian muslims.

114 Posted by HP on September 16, 2007 5:40:54 pm
100
"So Sindhi is a nationality. "

"Yes. Sindhi is a nationality like punjabis, like Bengalis there are reasons they are called sndhi, punjabi and Bengali and even bihari. There can be thousands of nationalities under one nation.Jahil "

natinality based on State would be have been better than on Religion.

Re: # 108

Ranjit:

Muslim Indians of This India's" generation do not want to be compared with Pakistani muslims. I have seen and heard in North Kashmiris Indians down to South India. It is most obvious in Mumbai.

This India's muslim Indian generation will create its own identity. Kabir Khan of Chak De India proved it. Shah Rukh Khan must make more such movies. This is best way to overcome the shell-shocked generation.