The need for De-Bhuttofication of the Pakistan People's Party

HP and TOLKININ

#93 - Why the Muslims in India have not recovered from a loss, minuscule in numbers, in the last 60 years?

I think the muslim community at large was in great shock from the impact of Great Jinnah on their life after 1947 - Some of their relatives and friends were moving to the promised land and Indians were doubting their loyalty. Poor guys became aliens in their own country. May God never put any community under this disastrous situation. I, as Sikh (after 1984), can empathize with their situation.

I am convinced that once rank and file sees the benefits of english education for young kids, they will be as competitive as any other indian.

TOLKIININ is just confirming that.

#98
[As in "Sindhi-Sindhi-bhai-bhai."
Shows your own parochialism. You seem incapable to rising above the indian-indian thing and assume that every one makes decision based on petty nationalism. Jahil.]

Aah, NOW I get it. Being Sindhi is a form of nationalism! So Sindhi is a nationality. I never knew that the fires of nationalism burn so hot in that Sindhi bosom of yours!

Perhaps the BB could be declared the PM of Sindhudesh - cutting out the Punjabi occupiers from the picture completely. Let the NW tribal people handle their own problems with the USA and let the USA solve those problems whatever way the USA sees fit!

All problems solved. You must be a genius!

#96

Look at your country you could not be invented without an Indian muslim nor could you have had as good as with Shaukat Aziz from Agra & musharaf from Delhi

What even if pakistani muslims of Indian origin are not the majority in overseas diaspora ...it is like excpecting 15% of Indian muslims to be equal number to other Indian soft ware enginers as Buuley always harps

#95
"As in "Sindhi-Sindhi-bhai-bhai."

Shows your own parochialism. You seem incapable to rising above the indian-indian thing and assume that every one makes decision based on petty nationalism. Jahil.

#94 Tolkinin

Ama yaar, you are trying to wake up folks who are PRETENDING to be asleep!

They actually like to sleep. Sleep makes them more comfortable.

Regarding IMs, here is what I think.

Nobody but a moron (because of some unknown reasons, the moron specie is over-represented in my beloved Pakistan!) - I repeat, nobody but a moron - will doubt that the IMs are a vital part (probably the most vital part) of what gives us Indians our identity as Indians! And that is simple reality.

The Pakistani folks can only look in wonder and jealousy and beat themselves on own heads in frenzy on their footi-naseeb!

"All the successful Pakistanis who i have seen are not from indigenous Pakistan but from India where there fore father were educated ."

Which USA you live? Yes they are plenty of urdu speaking but in the US they don't dominate the Pakistani community nor are they majority of professional Pakistanis.

HP, what happened? I thought you would be friends with the BB crowd.

As in "Sindhi-Sindhi-bhai-bhai."

Alas, it seems to have become a case of "Sindhi, Sindhi - bye, bye!"

#91& 03

", how much of that has to do with cream of the crop and most ambitious and opportunity seekers moving to Pakistan. I would guess, a lot :).'

I am an Indian Muslims living in USA .All the successful Pakistanis who i have seen are not from indigenous Pakistan but from India where there fore father were educated .And if Pakistan was the utopia why largest number of them having technical skills either came to Canada or USA if Pakistan was such a good place.So what if India is not as good but both Indian & Pakistani muslims if they apply themselves would consider nether India nor Pakistan there destination.If you take the Indian Muslims in West they are much more educated and skilled than indegenous Pakistani Paindu

#91 Posted by Pardesi

“However, how much of that has to do with cream of the crop and most ambitious and opportunity seekers moving to Pakistan. I would guess, a lot :).”

That is subjective. The opportunity seekers worked for the civil bureaucracy and then moved on to the private sector jobs. They barely had any money to invest in Industry and other capitalist ventures. Memon, Bohra and Khoja, worked really hard to set up businesses but they are mostly traders. The Dauds, the soomars, the Admajees or the Habibs are not major player in Pakistan anymore.

Also, barely 20% of Muslims who came from India were educated and now their next generations are running close to 90% educated. Even the poorest folks from Rajasthan have improved their lot in Pakistan whereas their relatives in India lag far behind.

Actually there is no comparison at all and the educated Muslim corps form India is not a major factor in Pakistan business, trade and jobs now.

In the 50s, Pakistani courts and educational institutions were full of people from India now they are not dominant in those sectors either.
They had an impact initially but they are only 7% of the population and don’t impact the numbers now.

Otoh, compared to Muslim population in India, the educated Muslims that left India were insignificant, Just a couple of hundred thousand or so.

Why the Muslims in India have not recovered from a loss, minuscule in numbers, in the last 60 years?

Mian Masadi,

After reading some of your initial interacts on this board, I am beginning to think that Mian Manto indeed got overcome by rage and was forced to excrete this present outpouring of textual diarrhea probably due to some of YOUR past brutally honest (if less than complimentary) words describing Mr. Jinnah’s disastrous effect on the whole of the subcontinent in general and the minority Muslims, in particular.

#82 HP:

You are right - Premji was born with a silver spoon and he made it a golden spoon for his kids. It's like Trump or next geneartion of Ambanis. However, credit must be given to whatever he achieved (You know, even Bill Gates's mom helped him by introducing him to IBM CEO before he got his DOS contract, still we can not underestimate his achievments)

You are right again that average Pakistani Muslim is probably better off than average Indian muslim. However, how much of that has to do with cream of the crop and most ambitious and opportunity seekers moving to Pakistan. I would guess, a lot :).

I really believe that once Indian muslims focus on english education for their kids, they will do better than pakistanis. Why?
#1 - Tough competition from others in india - competition brings out best in you.
#2 - they will not waste their time on what was written in 7th century or what did Jinah said on what date. The energy and intelligence will be focused on future achievement rather than why this or that happened in 1947 or 1971.

Regards.

#87 tolkinin

I have not read much of the intriguing miaN Masadi, but he is entitled to his viewpoints - as long as (unlike many others who are wishy-washy on the subject) he does not advocate violence! The academic world the world over is famous for harboring all types of view points which would have a tough time being sheltered in the "real" world.

In fact, I am reasonably sure the BB can more than hold her own in any “head to head” competition with any of these regional leaders:

Pratibha Patil
Rabri Devi
Sheikh Hasina
Khaleda Zia

Not to forget..

Manmohan Singh

#86

That and seeing a chuberic face on the front page of news paper ( there was not much T.V in '67)was one of the reason to ellect Indira Gandhi intially

Manto
"especially the Muslims of this region while the capital of mostly Hindu and Sikh bourgeoisie would have continued to flow to the stock exchange in Bombay.

In retrospect ... one could hold Jinnah responsible for one major issue: His creation gave people like Muhammed Asadi, who would probably not be more than a havaldar in the United Indian Army, an opportunity to masquerade as "professors" and inundate the world with recycled regurgitated crap in the academic scholarship"

And u have crystal bowl that you can look into
as MAJ scared the muslims 'So jas bache nahi to Ghabar ajayega" he he he

...not to miss out on the obvious fact that the BB is the most photogenic of the current lot.

If the bholi-bhali Pakistani awaam is deprived of the basic necessities of life and the basic freedoms of life, hey, that is something it has learnt to live without - through a LOT of training!

But by Golly, it shall not be deprived of a good-looking PM filling up its TV screens!

Absolutely not!