The need for De-Bhuttofication of the Pakistan People's Party

#68

"Leave Muslim-Indian alone"

Why why aren't we being all fiesty because something contradicted your lack of knowledge. A similar suggestion can be made to you anil: Leave this to us and concern yourself with Indians only. You may exit this board at any time.

Farzana misses many important issues by miles. She belongs in a generation of Muslim-Indian leaders, who indeed were shell shocked due to what had happened. Unlike her, Azim Premji did not abdicate responsible leadership. Younger generation of Muslim Indians are making differences, unlike Farzana. These leaders are in Moradabad, they are in Benaras, they are in Mumbai - building the largest shoe company of India, they are building pharmaceutical company of India that is challenging established norms and provide affordable drugs and medicines.

HP sahib, leave muslim-Indian alone. Look in your asteen. Your nonsense makes me very angry. Are you ready to accept that for what you called me names, is no longer written on the walls. It is in your face also. Need reminding - Bhutto (=PPP) and Musharraff (=Army); Lal Masjid = Pakistani Jalianwala Bagh.

Re: # 63

PS: According to Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Jinnah wanted him (Ghaffar Khan) to play the leading role in the politics of Pakistan. You may read Raj Mohan Gandhi's book on Ghaffar Khan where he says something to the effect. So there you have it... (even though I could have said Jogindranath Mandal but Mandal was pro-Jinnah through out).

The succession worked well. Nazimuddin became the Governor General on 12th September 1948 and Liaqat Ali Khan's ministry stayed in the government.

As for my "blind" position on Jinnah... it is only "blind" to you because you are blind to logic.

anil,

I think the typo says it all.

You can either rely on sound bytes or you can look at the salience of my argument. Either way it is your prerogative, loss or gain respectively.

Re: # 63

Yasser:

"This is not a sincere question."

Apologies, I meant "This is not an insincere question."

#57 Posted by Pardesi

Pardesi,
Please read Farzana Versey's article in counterpunch.com that deals with this myth of "How a Muslim Billionaire
Thrives in Hindu India"

This is really annoying that some secularist present him as a muslim billionaire in HINDU india. Just try to understand the irony of the whole sh*t of this mulsim billionaire non sense.

Yasser:

Pakistan only gave colors to Karachi and Dhaka. There was no IT industry, when Azim Premji disrupted his studies at Stanford to return and run after his father's death. It is all about empowered man. Jinnah and his doctors knew of his mortality. I am in agreement that succession Mughal style was not planned. By inference, the opposite - no succession mughal style - cannot be the plan either.

Prior to Pakistan's independence, what was his last legacy? Was it those 15 points that became 14 points? This is not a sincere question.

Who was equivalent of Dr. B. R. Ambedkar in contemporaneous Pakistan? According to you, B. R. Ambedkar was a critique of Nehru and Gandhi, have you ever wondered why was he still entrusted to come up with the constitution of India? Would Jinnah have allowed this to happen, can you point me to literature that would back your claims?

I have more not less questions, on your blind position on Jinnah. Chowk may not be the best place to discuss these, and soon this board will go down. I am interested in a more serious discussion with you.

HP,

"Major parties in Pakistan emerged out of Muslim League. Both Awami League of Mujib and the PPP of Bhutto were formed by the former leaguers."

That is a very important point that is often forgotten.


And this one too:

"One of the many political undercurrents in Pakistan is still the clash between the nationalist Muslims who favored Congress and the Muslim leaguers who favored Jinnah. Pretty much all nationalists in Pakistan are pro congress and a majority of Islamists in Pakistan are still beholden to their old political alliance when majority of maulavis in India supported Congress. Over the last 60 years some Islamists saw an opportunity to bring Islamic rule to Pakistan and joined the army to pursue this goal but ideologically they still did not agree with the creation of Pakistan and continue their opposition to Jinnah."


1965 was one opportunity where this current was overturned in many ways... with former Leaguers and former Congress-elements working together on both sides.

Just put this debate in some perspective.

Jinnah’s influence on Pakistan is undeniable. Almost all, who ruled Pakistan, had to take pictures in Jinnah cap and Sherwani. Ayub Khan did it, Even Nawaz Sharif did it but Bhutto was the one who took that to another level. He had his pictures taken in Jinnah cap, Sherwai and Shalwar and had them hang all over the country. He certainly looked better than Jinnah in that attire and perhaps Nawaz Sharif looked the most ridiculous.

Major parties in Pakistan emerged out of Muslim League. Both Awami League of Mujib and the PPP of Bhutto were formed by the former leaguers.

One of the many political undercurrents in Pakistan is still the clash between the nationalist Muslims who favored Congress and the Muslim leaguers who favored Jinnah. Pretty much all nationalists in Pakistan are pro congress and a majority of Islamists in Pakistan are still beholden to their old political alliance when majority of maulavis in India supported Congress. Over the last 60 years some Islamists saw an opportunity to bring Islamic rule to Pakistan and joined the army to pursue this goal but ideologically they still did not agree with the creation of Pakistan and continue their opposition to Jinnah.

The genuine left in Pakistan did not agree with Jinnah and his politics despite the communist party’s support of the ML right before the partition. Since the left is not in idol worshiping, they mostly stay away from this debate. Pakistani left sees problem in Pakistan not of Jinnah’s doing but as a part of the economic and political struggle and conflict in Pakistan and obviously after his death Jinnah had no influence on Pakistan’s economics and political progress. He is a name to be exploited. Similar is the case with Bhutto. I recommend people read my article on Bhutto on Chowk.

Bhutto’s initial popularity in Pakistan was his stand on Kashmir and anti India rhetoric. Afterwards he hooked up with the pro-china left of Mubasshar, Mairaj and Shaikh Rashid and was supported by liberals led by J A Rahim, his politics moved more towards an economic program. Before the pro-china left got close to Bhutto, it was the Communist Party of Pakistan that propped him up thru its various student and labor fronts. But Bhutto and the Communist Party ideologically were poles apart and moved their separate ways. The Communist Party in Pakistan never supported Bhutto in Pakistan after a brief honeymoon in 1967. The communists clashed with Bhutto violently after the 1973 military action in Baluchistan. The communist stayed away from the PNA movement in 1977 but after Bhutto was arrested they worked with Nusrat on her request to create an anti army alliance that did not last long too.

A word about Nationalization in Pakistan. Bhutto personally was not in favor of Nationalization but was pressured by the Mubashar, Mairaj and Shaikh Rashid group to do that. Later, in Nationalization, he saw an opportunity to inflict some damage to the industrialists and capitalist who had earlier refused to contribute to his Election campaign. The nationalization also led to major job creation in Pakistan. From 1973 to 1975 the unemployment has gone down. 1000s of Sindhi, Bloch and Pathan who otherwise would not have gotten a choice government job got a good start in the public sector.

RE: The "Church of MAJ" and the "high priest" epithets.

While he did not have the moral courage to emulate Jinnah's integrity and honesty, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was one of the staunchest Jinnah-admirers.

I remember reading a passionate letter by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto to the Time Magazine in 1948 as a young student at University of Southern California .... in which he defended Jinnah tooth and nail... Similarly his book "Myth of Independence" and his speeches to the National Assembly in with his bitter attacks against those who he suspected of being abusive against Jinnah... all reveal Bhutto's intense devotion to Jinnah. Piloo Moody in his "Zulfi My Friend" has written extensively of how fanatical Bhutto was about Jinnah. Infact it was this that intrigued me to read more about the Quaid-e-Azam, as a Bhutto-admirer.

Why I might say that if there is such a thing as the "Church of MAJ" as Masadi puts it... Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was its first High Priest- albeit one who didn't practise what he preached. Suffice to say, and I'll bet my Mont Blanc pen on this (reference 1st post by Masadi on this board) that had Bhutto come across Masadi, he would have shoved Masadi's parker where the sun don't shine.

Re: # 54

Roamir:

Yours is a very important post. I would love to discuss it with you. I realize that I have been away for a long time from India and the time has come to make a trip. I hope, before it, I would have the chance to know what you have discovered. I have an interesting plan to connect India's silk, bead and embroidery workers to the market through technology. As you know these are premodinantly muslim workers. Existing channels keep bulk of the profits elsewhere. I have been involved in doing similar in the backyard of America, like southwestern Colorado.

Dear Anil,

There is no logical reason for your optimism. Everything has cause and effect. Karachi and Dacca emerged because of the unique circumstances ... primarily the shift of focus from Delhi and Calcutta respectively. It wouldn't have happened ... had it not been for Jinnah.

Your Azim Premji claims plays into what I've saying all along. His brother or uncle who came to Pakistan were obviously going to a less industrialised and backward part of the subcontinent. I am afraid these arguments don't make logical sense ...

As for the succession plan issue... pray tell sir did Jinnah's demise lead to a war of succession in Pakistan Mughal style? Amazing.

#54 Bulleya on progress of muslims ..

Your statements are right. Read the full article below 9/11 Wall Street Journal. Even in wipro, muslim software engineers are no more than 1-2%.
However, the fault lies with their urdu education etc. Good news - muslims are waking up.

SECULAR ENGINEER
How a Muslim Billionaire
Thrives in Hindu India
Mr. Premji Has Wealth
And Clout as Wipro Chief;
The Imam Disapproves
By YAROSLAV TROFIMOV
September 11, 2007; Page A1

(See Corrections & Amplifications item below.)

BANGALORE, India -- The world's richest Muslim entrepreneur defies conventional wisdom about Islamic tycoons: He doesn't hail from the Persian Gulf, he didn't make his money in petroleum, and he definitely doesn't wear his faith on his sleeve.

I'd take offence to anyone insulting Jinnah.

He will be awarded the future "Bharat ratna" for the service he did to the Indian non-Muslims..

We would be in Nigeria/Lebanon like situation if not for partition.. Hail Jinnah..

Re: # 48

Yasser:

I disagree, Karachi and Dacca would have happened. There were people, who would have given the colors you would have liked and be proud.

Pakistan only gave them a color. Appropriate or inappropriate color, only time will tell. Although not a whole lot to brag about, regarding the kind of color to date.

If I my memory serves right, Azim Premji had mentioned to me that either his father's brother or his own brother chose to go to Pakistan. When he told me no one would have imagined he would achieve this pinnacle.

It is obvious why they are not mentioned in your list. And Azim is mentioned in Arjun and world's lists. He really converted a small unknown vanaspati oil company into an IT giant. His story can be taught at Harvard Business School. Obviously not that of his brother or uncle who went to Pakistan.

BBC did not bother to choose it, although comparisons of such families would be revealing, and show uselessness of religion beyond personal space.

My point here is that it is empowered people who make the difference.

Many tough questions blind followers of Jinnah have not asked. Jinnah knew he was not immortal, where was his succession plan for Pakistan? He must have known that he would not live long with the disease he and his doctors knew. He was also falliable. I was reading a review of a book on him, in The Daily Times that you must have read also.

I could see in it his reasons his drivers, that you may not but I did, and would love to share with you some day. Hero worship blinds too.

Coming to this article. Aren't you really trying to repaint PPP, and be outside it?

Kind of the similar mistake, Jinnah did, repaint India for its muslims to be outside of it?

Permanent changes are always from within. Unless you can root out the past, Islam has examples of this. Whereas Hinduism to Buddhism to Jainism to Sikhism are examples of the former.

Closing it, only thing that comes to my mind is the following line from a hindi song:

"Phir wohi apraadh mein har bar karta houn....
Aadmai houn aadmi se pyar karta houn...."

anil #33: "Delienation of Pakistan from India is going to be very healthy for India and especially muslim-India, which is now producing better muslim-Indian leaders."

......i am not sure how long it has been since you have been to india.....i suggest you take regular trips.......

.....muslims in south asia are in bad shape....they are in bad shape in pakistan and bangladesh......and also in india....

.....while i tend to agree with your analysis of muslims in pakistan, i am afraid your analysis of muslims in india, is quite a bit off target....

i have seen enough of india now, to realize that muslims aren't doing too well, there......that would be an understatement....i sit in so many IT meetings, where i am the seniormost muslim......barring the odd azim premji, i see line after line of indian hindus (and christians, for that matter) executives achieving success; but ironically, i see no indian muslims......in fact, i saw hardly any in silicon valley or in my universities....

.....indian muslims future in india is hard to predict......indian hindus are, no doubt, making genuine progress........however, this is only increasing the gap with indian muslims, which could turn into an east and west pakistan type of situation.......with one community growing and the other falling behind, and feeling disenfranchised....

......pakistani muslims have done very well economically, by south asian standards, considering where the geogrphic region of pakistan started from......however, socially, culturally, politically, etc. they are in bad shape....as are bangladeshis....