The need for De-Bhuttofication of the Pakistan People's Party

Ref MantoLives #169

[But lets compare.... Pakistanis and Indians... pure and simple ... Let us use York University Canada as a run of the mill example because York publishes its international student statistics...

Pakistani students
Undergraduate 488
Graduate 32

Indian students
Undergrad Students 662
Grad Students 102

Now keep in mind that the population disparity is 1 to 9.
The York situation is reflected more or less in most schools around the US.]

Yasser, dear boy, York University or Rutgers for that matter is not the high-class university that most Indian students aspire to.

Also, most undergraduate programs do not offer scholarships. Most Indian students therefore get their bachelor's degrees in India and apply to US/Canada for their master's and doctoral degrees where there is a chance of getting financial assistance. Unlike the case of you or your wife, most Indians do not have Daddy Bigbucks paying for their education abroad.

Hari,

Yasser opened our eyes to this fact:

Pakistan is Japan.

India is Somalia

I think we must reconcile to this very fact.

My Counter Punch to illiterate Farzana Versey:

(http://www.counterpunch.org/versey09142007.html)

1. It may have a majority of Hindus, but then it has a majority of illiterates.

CP: India's literacy rate is well over 61%. Is 39% is majority? Joker!

2. He had money to get a decent education and he had the spirit of enterprise. Hindu India did not contribute to these, neither did Muslims. It is an individual achievement.

CP: Disjointed stuff. What effing Hindu India, Muslim India didnt contribute? Plain hate.

3. It is unfortunate that Muslims are being made accountable for aspects of life that would under normal circumstances not identity them with religion.

CP : Why it's unfortunate when Aizm is praised (u resent such epithets like Muslim billionaire in Hindu India) for his aspect as Muslim billionaire? Joekeraani.

4. What is resented is the fact that in a country where most of the 150 million people of the community are ghettoized,.....

CP: With an exception of Gujarat, there's no ghettoisation of Muslims. Plain hate is evient here. I hope she's not living in Dharavi. Even in Dharavi ppl of all religions live together.

5. On any given day there will be a handful of Muslims taken out of the celebrity closet to reveal the mothballed magnanimity of the majority community.

CP: Why this obsession with the things that are Hindu and Muslim? Nobody is showcasing him, it's the foreign reporter who saw it in those terms. Ppl go abt their lives and some make it big and this unstable witch got stomach cramps for that. May be she cant tolerate any good press for India in this wrold.

6. No one wants Premji to stand up and be counted. But there is no reason for him to play along with this secular sham, and he has been doing so for a while.

CP: May be Azim need to grow a beard and wear skull-cap & say Alhamdolillah and that stuff & join Jamia Binoria and be ready to explode himself OR she want Indians to follow Pakistani brand of secularism?

The Chinese, Japanese and Russian stuff was asnwered to by Stuka.

Is this analysis/comentary or plain harted or as Sadna said on UP, 'hissy fits'?

Manto,
I am not sure if this reply was for my post. I do agree that there will be more Pakistani Muslims than Indian Muslims in IT and in Universities. What i was trying to say in response to Bulleyas post is, the Indian Muslim presence in IT industry and in US is not exactly 0. There are Indian Muslims in IT but you will not find them in proportionate to their general numbers (15% of Indian population).

I have been living here in the valley for the last 4 years and before that I was in Chicago area and in both places i have met handful of Indian Muslims.

Forget about the numbers based on religion, take the numbers based on Hindu Castes and region. You will find most of the Indians in US IT industry to be from South India. Particularly Tamilnadu and Andhra. I have met SW engr's from Punjab, Gujarat, Delhi, Bombay and few from Bengal. I have never met anyone from Bihar, Orissa, MP, UP, Rajastan (Hindu or Muslim). 80% of Indian Muslims i met are from South.

Basically, the South caught up with the IT industry much ahead of North where a good number of Indian Muslims live. This may explain why there seems to be a fewer number of Indian Muslims.

My post #180 is in response to Manto's post 159.

srk #180 good post. The reason the IT revolution pulled up the indian economy from its "vicious cycle of underdevelopment" was that India was well suited to supply a key demand created by the IT revolution, namely individuals literate in the english language who could then translate requirements provided by business analysts into computer code. This provides the root explanation of why south india has done better than north india and pakistan in benefitting from the IT revolution: South India at time of partition had literacy rates, particularly in the english language, that were already far higher than those in the north. The reason for this, seems to me, is primarily explained by the fact that the british were in south india for over a century longer than they were in north india.

Correct me if I am mistaken.

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The presence of the British certainly seems to have helped. But I do not think that is the only reason. If this is the only reason Bengal should have been the fountain head of the Indian IT and Industrial revolution. I think my grand parent’s generation had a lot to do with this.

I am not a social scientist to give a concrete reason. But here is my take on it.

What I am going to tell is from my observation of my family, my wife’s family and some of my friend’s families. Most of South Indian economy was based on agriculture and this was dependent on Monsoon season. Basically my great grand parents and grand parents livelihood was dependent on rain gods. Sir Arthur Cotton changed that and he helped in the construction of number of water dams in south. After which the people living in those areas have continuous supply of water for farming which improved their economic status. Now with some extra money in their hands my grand parent’s generation started sending their sons to schools/colleges instead of sending them to the fields. My grand parents had 2 daughters and one son (my dad). They sent him to college and then to medical college in Nagpur (paid capitation fee). My father could not finish the medical school because of some health reasons and came back after which he completed BSc. My grand parents were very frugal but they never hesitated to spend money on my father’s education. They sold some land from the little they owned. Some of my grand parent’s cousins did not take this risk and to this day I can see the impact with no engineer or doctor in their families. To put things in perspective, my grand parents were barely literate.

I saw similar story repeating in most of my family, my wife’s family and friend’s families. Though my father never completed medical school many of my father’s cousins completed medical and engineering schools. Eventually some of these people in my father’s generation became role models for others in the families. Personally I believe this trickle down effect contributed to the parents wanting to make their kids either an engineer or doctor. And I believe this holds true for most of the upper castes who were the land owners. This trickle down effect continued to the backward castes also. They saw the benefits of modern education and started sending their kids to professional colleges and with the help of reservations they also contributed lot to IT industry. My father-in-law, who is an asst professor in an engineering college, tells me that the students from the backward caste communities are really doing well and a good number of them are in the top 20%.

Combining my grand parents generations thirst for the education with the Southern governments push for professional education (medicine & engineering) eventually resulted in producing large number of engineers and doctors by early 90’s. But South India does not have enough industrial base to absorb all these new engineering grads. Some engineering grads moved to US for doing their masters and most ended up doing masters in Computer Science. As for the ones who chose to stay in India, most of these engineers are very good at math and analytical skills which is a primary requirement for any good IT engineer. Then Y2K opened the gates for anyone who can do programming. So everyone started learning courses like mainframe programming, Oracle, Java, C++ etc in private institutions for 6 months and the budding industry grabbed them without much hesitation.

PS: When I was young I used to think my grand parents are too stingy but only after coming to US and thinking hard about them I started appreciating their sacrifices. I am eternally grateful for the sacrifices they have made for our well being. University fee for my education in US was paid after selling the land my father inherited from them.

The following is for the Manto's reading pleasure.

(from a web page belonging to the Institute of International Education, http://opendoors.iienetwork.org/?p=25086)

Comments from Prof. Jane E. Schukoske, Executive Director, U.S. Educational Foundation in India (USEFI), New Delhi, regarding the release of Open Doors 2006:

“The U.S. continues to be the international destination of choice for Indian students, who comprise the largest number of international students in the U.S. for the fifth consecutive year in 2005-06, according to Open Doors 2006. Indian students and their parents know that U.S. higher education prepares graduates for tomorrow’s careers. Though the number of Indian students enrolled in U.S. institutions in 2005-06 declined from the previous year to 76,503, it is still 14% over the 2001-02 enrollment level of 66,836. Looking ahead, we see that there have been 24,622 visas issued to Indian students in the year ending September 30, 2006, and a 32% increase in 2006 graduate enrollments by Indian students reported by the Council of Graduate Schools. These are positive signs.”

“The strong Indo-U.S. relationship, illustrated by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s July 2005 visit to the U.S. and President Bush’s March 2006 visit to India, encourages Indian students pursuing excellence in higher education to continue to enroll in U.S. colleges and universities. The word that the student visa system is functioning smoothly has reached Indian students, dispelling concerns that had arisen after 9/11.”

“We can expect to see Indian students enrolling in a larger number of U.S. institutions in the coming years. Institutions seeking to internationalize their campuses will naturally desire a cross-section of international students from a number of countries. Top university delegations coming to recruit in India often comment that they are not seeking more Indian students for their campuses, as many have a good representation of Indians already, but they are competing for the best Indian students with other U.S. institutions.”

“2006 has been declared the “Year of Study Abroad” by the U.S. Senate, which recognized that “studying abroad exposes students from the United States to valuable global knowledge and cultural understanding and forms an integral part of their education”. U.S. Educational Foundation in India (USEFI) is delighted to see that 1,767 U.S. students – an increase of 53% over the prior year – came to India, according to the report in Open Doors 2006. It is quite an achievement for India to have become the 20th leading destination for U.S. study abroad. As noted in the article “Destination India” in the Fall 2006 issue of IIE Networker, educators are realizing that the “New India” offers many important opportunities for study of contemporary development, environment, and the economy, as well as India’s multi-religious, multi-cultural democracy and rich history. USEFI sees increasing numbers of U.S. business schools bringing students to India to expose their students to the global business activity in the IT sector. The U.S. Department of State’s 2006 National Strategic Language Initiative, which includes Hindi and Urdu as strategic languages, will provide additional impetus to the growing numbers of U.S. students in India.”

Re: # 179
VRV,

I would not get too upset. I think she is undergoing a mid life crisis. Though I am glad Farzana has come out. She was in the closet too long.

giani

#169 Posted by MantoLives on September 17, 2007 3:39:09 am


Let us use York University Canada


Lets compare the numbers in the US...Canada only exists because the US has minimum standards..

The visa numbers clearly show you're wrong...compare the number of students in the top tier schools and the comparison makes pakis look even worse...

heck..take a look at the faculty in top tier schools...you can't swing a dead cat without hitting an Indian prof...OTOH, there are more dead cats in top US schools than paki profs...

Look at the hatred these hindus have for a muslim woman like farzana just beacuse she pointed out that Premji is a flash in the pan and not representative of the bias against muslims from the lowest to the highest level. you can see that in the statistics that the indian govt itself publishes. Even premji was able to rise bacause he likes to hide his identity infact you can see th poor man is so frightened of the hindus consantly pointing out that he is a muslim that he has started lashing out.

his fear is so great that he refuses to give holidays even on Eid in his company lest he be considered communal, fie on this murdood or should i have sympathy for this terrorsied soul.

This is the reason Jinnah had to have Pkistan so middle class, rich or poor muslims would not live in fear of their identity and most importantly for preservation of muslim culture look at what level they have reduced muslim's from the treatment of their language Urdu.

So much hate these injuns have they would not even share fod infact they would not even let muslims enter their kitchen or their presence when eating food, if a muslim ate they would break that plate rather than use it again and they talk of one country, disgusting. Even gandhi said their should be no interdining and no intermarriage, that shudhi or reconversion movementin Punjab by aryasamaj was appropriate, Gandhi was actually supoorting Arya samaj and hindu mahasabha, compare this with the tolerant behaviour of muslims and jinnah

laanat hai is hindu qaum pey

Giani,

I dont know much abt hpersonally but her articles gave enuf focus on her immaturity as a commenatator.

Giani,

I dont know much abt her personally but her articles gave enuf focus on her immaturity as a commenatator.

Pakistani students
Undergraduate 488
Graduate 32

Indian students
Undergrad Students 662
Grad Students 102
---------------

manto, It is interesting math...and actually the above data goes against your point.

Let us compensate/adjust the above data for size populations they come from.
but before that, it clearly shows that there are lot more Pakistani student at York unviersity than indian students (whatever one wants to interpret from that)

662 indian students for 1000 million
that means 1/7th of that for 150 million (population equivalent to pakistan)

that means 94 Indian students (from 150 million Indian pop)
while 488 pakistani students from 150 million Pakistani pop

that means for every 5 pakistani at York university if we will encounter 1 Indian student after compensating for parent population size.
since Indian muslims are 15% of total population

we should see 1 Indian muslim student for 35 pakistani students at York univ.
when you said 1 indian student for 25 pakistani students you were underestimating.

ps #191: I took 1:7 population disparity. does not matter to illustrate the point.