The need for De-Bhuttofication of the Pakistan People's Party

SRK #184 Thanks for your putting a very human face to this issue with your very interesting write-up of your own family's experience. The basic point that you so beautifully make is obviously the thirst for education, the willingness to make sacrifices in your family - to the extent of selling land - so the children might get educated.

So, what you say begs the question: Why did south indians realize the value of modern education (as per your illustration) earlier than bangalis or pakistanis or north indians, and thus have significantly higher literacy rates at time of independence of south india?

I know that partial answer in case of muslims is resistance of the maulvis to western education (and sir syed was abused by them and called a kafir for encouraging muslims to get western education). But what about the hindus of bengal and north india generally? Why did they have lower literacy rates at time of partition than south indians.

PS: What you relate is, btw, is not limited to South India - at least not today. I think people the world over now realize that they can improve their lives through education.

Thus, while what you indicate about Bengal may have been true until the mid-20th century, that is no longer the case: the micro-credit revolution in particular has shown Bangladeshis that the path to improve their lot is - education. I will always remember the time I went inside the homes of the poorest villagers in Bangladesh (who were good enough to permit me to enter and see for myself their living conditions), and in one room I say a teenaged boy sitting on the dirt floor of his one-room house with a pile of books in front. In Pakistan, today people in even the remotest villages are aware of the opportunities provided by education (particularly female education) and this is a sea-change from just 20 years ago. There is no doubt resistance from maulvis who see any appreciation of western education as anathema - but I dont think people take the maulvis as seriously inside pakistan as he is taken in world capitals.

masadi: so you are being abusive again. no problem.

All of you Pakistanis celebrating the establishment of Pakistan as the escape mechanism for Indian Muslims, please read and respond to the following:

Why wouldn't Indian Muslims leave India to live in Pakistan/Bangladesh?
Submitted by Desh on 2007, August 11 - 3:07pm.
Tags: India | Religion

Dr. Muthuswamy, the author of the book "The Art of War on Terror" argued in his comments to my last post that Indian land mass and resources were after all divided and 25% was taken away by the Muslims. And in both the areas, the minorities - specifically the Hindus - were either thrown out or converted or simply finished off. You can also add Kashmir now - where a systematic religious cleansing was undertaken by the Jehadis and the Indian Hindus did NOTHING! So, he argues, why give any reservations to Muslims at all? If they are poor in India - it must be their "doing". I agree with him on this. Like I have said early too - I was part of the study done in UP on Minorities (Muslims) economic and social development. And our findings clearly stated that Muslims are in the throes of the fundamentalist and useless madrasa education. Until they get out of that - I do not see any improvements!

Here is another post from Indian Muslims site - which was interesting. IN many areas, Muslims are discriminated against and not given the opportunity to live in certain apartment complexes. I do agree that the discrimination against the Muslims is really undesirable in the context of Indian ethos. But for a moment, let us assume this was Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. Would such a question be even raised?? If a Hindu was denied residence - would that tantamount to discrimination?? Would any one talk about it? Why not?

Now, let me take you to another constant rant of the Shiv Sainiks to Muslims - "Go to Pakistan" they say. That is again undesirable - within the ethos of the Indian values. But again, it happens EVERYDAY in Pakistan and Bangladesh. Is that even a question there? Why not?

How come that even though we belong to the same heritage and race and forefathers still the ETHOS of Pakistan-Bangladesh and India are inherently assumed to be so different? What made it so different?

Now, given the stuff above, let me ask an exploratory (not a rhetoric of Shiv Sainiks) - Why would an Indian Muslims NOT leave India for Pakistan or Bangladesh? Why would they want to stay in India? What makes India - despite (or because?) of its Hindu Majority a better option versus Pakistan or Bangladesh?

Ok, lets ask another corollary - if India did become a majority Muslim and lost the Hindu majority status - would it still have the same appeal to the Indian Muslims???

I would now follow this question with another one - Is a society run as an "Islamic" society even worth living and dreaming in? Dreams need freedom and diversity.

And I am talking of all hues of Muslims here - Ahmediyas, Shias, Aga khanis etc. If you are an Ahmediya - would you want such a society which is built as an Islamic society?

What is it about Islam that makes societies built on its religious precepts un-liveable by anyone BUT the fundamentalists? This question is NOT a rant but a serious question! It needs deep and thorough - and above all DISPASSIONATE introspection.

tahmed32 post 193#
"So, what you say begs the question: Why did south indians realize the value of modern education (as per your illustration) earlier than bangalis or pakistanis or north indians, and thus have significantly higher literacy rates at time of independence of south india?"

I do not think the literacy gap between Northern and Southern states was that high at the time of independence. The difference may be few points. But the gap did increase post independence.

I think this has to do with multiple reasons.
1. Relative stable economies in parts of South, particularly in fertile regions.
2. There is no strong presence of feudalism. There were feudals but they were few.
3. Colleges established by the British.
4. Colleges/Schools established by the state governments.
5. Parents desire to see their sons as doctors and engineers. I still do not understand this, this trend is much higher in South than North.

#179

"My Counter Punch to illiterate Farzana Versey:

”(http://www.counterpunch.org/versey09142007.html)

1. It may have a majority of Hindus, but then it has a majority of illiterates.

CP: India's literacy rate is well over 61%. Is 39% is majority? Joker!”


I tried to read this rebuttal. Alas, after just a few lines, I realized that this person is really really deficient.

In response to illiterate comment he responded, “Indian literacy rate is 61%”
This gadhaa does not even know the difference between illiterate and literacy!

Okay here is how it goes: This very very ch***a adds to the Indian literacy numbers but he is clearly illiterate…..heheheheh!~

Re: # 195

"Why would an Indian Muslims NOT leave India for Pakistan or Bangladesh? Why would they want to stay in India? "(Harimau)

May be it is patriotism -- or may be because its just a choice between Teedledum and Tweedledee so why bother -- or may be it is like jumping from frying pan into a red hot charcoal grill -- but give him a visa to the USA or even to UK -- and both the patriotic Hindu and the unpatriotic Muslim bhaiyas will jump the Desi ship at the drop of their dhotis or pajamas -- and run for the airport -- any time of the day or the night .....:)

And for heavens sake Hari mian -- don't glorify the new "Kala Pani" for Pakistan's undesirables, the Saudi Arabia -- by comparing it to India

Ref nasah #198

That posting was not mine. I quoted from a blog called Drishtikone.

Even if I were the person asking the question "Why would an Indian Muslims NOT leave India for Pakistan or Bangladesh? Why would they want to stay in India?", that question would NEVER be directed at an Indian citizen; it would be a rhetorical question asked of Pakistani citizens who extol their country as the escape valve for Indian Muslims.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify.

Dear Dullah,

"we should see 1 Indian muslim student for 35 pakistani students at York univ.
when you said 1 indian student for 25 pakistani students you were underestimating."

The 25 Pakistani students to one Indian Muslim student was out of personal experience. It might as well be a higher disparity. Now considering that both populations are about the same, this adequately drives my point home.


In any event... Pakistani students to Indians students is generally favorable when you consider even 1:7 population ratio given that the Pakistani to Indian ratio for students in US and Canada are 1:3 or atmost 1:4 and that too after the 9/11 terrorism scare.


Arjun/Harimau,

I chose York as an example because it publishes figures.

Now whether it was because of lax standards at York or whatever, the point was never capability but financial ability... which proves the original point I was making.

"ISLAMABAD: A Supreme Court (SC) bench, headed by Justice Rana Bhagwandas on Monday asked prominent constitutional expert Aitzaz Ahsan to continue being a “friend of the court” after government lawyer Ahmed Raza Kasuri raised objections in the apex court to Ahsan’s appointment with two other lawyers to assist the court.

A seven-member SC bench headed by Chief Justice Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry had earlier rejected his objection but Kasuri raised the same objection before the nine-member bench on Monday. “His (Aitzaz’s) views against the president are publicly known to everyone. He will make a political statement and create a fuss.” Kasuri said in a loud, aggressive tone.

Aitzaz said that he was withdrawing himself as amicus curiae.

The bench rejected Kasuri’s demand and declared that Aitzaz’s withdrawal was NOT acceptable!!! (Irfan ghauri in Daily Times)

Holy cow! -- not a good prognosis for the 're-election' of a Nawaz-Shikan Nawab Musharraf as the president cum coass TWICE from the SAME rump NA! -- this decision is a a big shikan -- in the smooth plans of a not so smooth dictator -- status post Nawaz's kidnapping cum forced removal to foregn ountry.

A shining case of: the Dictator proposes and the Supreme Court Disposes -- finally the process of De-Musharrafication -- NOT De-Bhuttofication -- has begun.......

#197 Posted by HP on September 17, 2007 8:46:29 pm

Hijra Paaki i.e HP,

If ur darling says that most of the Indians are illiterates then how the 39% constitute a majority in India?


U are too demented to understand any reasonable stuff. Gadha!

Hijra Paaki,

Ur darling witch has an itch that India is not getting bad press:

==

It may have a majority of Hindus, but then it has a majority of illiterates. Why wasn’t the report called, “How a literate billionaire thrives in illiterate India”?

==

Ur brain is in ur knee-cap, Ch** HP?

You got that dead right...Worse we could have been "them" as this report shows. MAJ thanks for your yeomen service to India and your fore-sight in removing the riff-raffs, rascals, and looters out of India..and to Pakistan where they are doing excellently well in what they know best...


Chennai:

Yes, Jinnah for his yeoman service to India should be awarded the "Bharat ratna". I think that explains the popularity of Jinnah in India, the 46% number quoted by folks here.. :-)

If you read the discussion both Mr.Mantolives and Mr.Masadi are arguing the same thing. Masadi was worried that the Muslim political power was split due to the follies of Jinnah and Mantolives argues that it was never Jinnah's intention in the first place. Both of them are right..

Thank Allah for the partition. :-)

#196 SRK: Thanks for your response to the question, which (after checking literacy rates via google) I think is basically correct.

The saddest thing I once heard many years ago from an elderly gentleman who was what they used to call a "class IV staff" at an office in Pakistan was that he was illiterate and "feels like a blind man when he looks at the newspaper".

masanamuthu #204 I knew you indians would one day catch up with us Pakistanis and realize what a great man MAJ was.
:-)

Re: # 206 Tahmed:

That realization has been speeded up after interacting with folks like you..:)

#192
"we should see 1 Indian muslim student for 35 pakistani students at York univ.
when you said 1 indian student for 25 pakistani students you were underestimating."

By your own admission, 15% of Indians are muslims. If India is as fair, secular and civilized as claimed (mostly by Indians, of course), then 15% of the Indian students at York U, roughly 100 out of 662, should be muslims. That is, a representative ratio of Pak to Indian muslim student at Yourk would be 5:1.

A more obvious approach is to consider that there are as many (perhaps more) muslims in India than there are in Pakistan. By that yardstick, there should be at least one Indian muslim student for every Pakistani student; i.e. the ratio should be 1:1.

Is it? And, if not, then why not?