The need for De-Bhuttofication of the Pakistan People's Party

Re: # 29

Ranjit:

A great scenario that you have painted. This is happening in India, and does not need Pakistan or Yasser. Yasser is a budding lawyer and smart person who can lead Pakistan.

Delienation of Pakistan from India is going to be very healthy for India and especially muslim-India, which is now producing better muslim-Indian leaders.

Yasser has his work cut out in India.

#31 Posted by MantoLives on September 16, 2007 12:59:25 pm


Without Pakistan... Muslims of this region would still be stuck in agriculture and the martial race myth.


Nice try...before 1965, purelanders were completely on board with the whole martial races thing...which is why they tried a land grab for kashmir and got their teeth kicked in...

it's amazing that a person who remembers the texture of jinnah's poop on some obscure date doesn't remember the whole 1 paki = 10 hindus myth...

#33 Posted by anil on September 16, 2007 1:01:42 pm


Yasser is a budding lawyer and smart person who can lead Pakistan.


Yasser is an ahmedi..which means the chances of him of leading pureland are between none and the number hindus never tire people of telling they invented...

besides, he professes to be a believer in secularism and wants islam to be a private thing...clearly, he's out of step with the vast majority of the indian population...

Re: # 31

Perhas the correct statement would be

"Without Pakistan and with Hindus and Sikhs in this
Pakistan... Muslims of this region would still be stuck in agriculture and the martial race myth."

I think this was recognized by Mr. Jinnah and
Muslim League leaders and they worked on this and
took care of it.

Manto writes "You contradict yourself when you claim that the NAP supported Fatima Jinnah for power reasons ... if that was the case why didn't the NAP join up with the Pathan Ayub Khan "

An alliance against the dictator sides with FJ only because they want to cash in on the cultural factor of the MAJ popularity- this is power politics and not a people's mandate, neither did the people support FJ because of a "democracy" mandate and the Kingship of the MAJ is closer to and was a direct reason for the "military vision" that followed thereafter. MAJ was anti people just like the military dictators, even they talk the democracy talk but don't walk that walk. I did not contradict myself and am not wrong on any count. You on the other don't even know what your points are so you jump from one to the other, around and across like a rat whose tail is on fire....now go to hell

Re: # 33

Sorry, I meant "Yasser has his work cut out in Pakistan"

There are number of cities in India that saw industrialization after the creation of Pakistan. Bangalore, Hyderabad, Coimbatore, Pune and number of cities in Gujarat. With so much human capital in Karachi and Dacca, i do not think they would have left behind.

The fact is Jinnah wanted a separate country for Muslims no matter what. He and the other upper Muslim class leaders clearly did not like the idea of living under the rule of any Hindu majority government even if it was secular. Jinnah clearly did not have any great plans for the future industrialization/economy of the newly formed country. I do not blame him for that, all the leaders of that time were busy fighting for independence attending to the immediate needs.

Re: # 29

Ranjit,

I am afraid you are looking at the whole issue very naively and not in terms of economics and the well being as a whole. Its not the industrialisation of Islamabad but whole of Pakistan region.

Over all... everyone gets to win in this scenario- despite the mistakes and flaws in the way partition was carried out. Muslims on the two sides of the subcontinent have their nation states which they can develop according to their lights ... the Hindu majority has been successful in creating a constitutionally secular Indian republic and if it is allowed to work, logic states that Indian minorities will hopefuly get a level playing field.

As for the spectre you are raising ... of the power and prestige of the Indian Muslims pre-British... I am afraid pre-industrial situations have no bearing on the post industrial revolution period.

Still the Cabinet Mission Plan- that Jinnah accepted- which would have given Muslim League and the Muslims a lot of clout... but that was rejected by Nehru and Patel in the best interest of the Hindu Majority - or so we are told by those who dispute the usefulness of the Cabinet Mission Plan.

Ranjit #: "As an example look at how bulleya is participating in the thick of things in India."

....interesting comments.....i agree with quite a bit of what you are saying.......and disagree with some of it...

....i think the best solution for india would have been what jinnah, originally, wanted.....the more time i spend travelling in the region, the more sure i am becoming of it....

.......this was a federated india, with muslim majority provinces having some autonomy, but being a part of a united india.....it would have given muslims enough security, while allowing them to participate in a united india.....

in a sense that is the setup i am in.....i can come and go to india, participate in it if i want.......without any fear or insecurity, because my nationality lies somewhere else......if something happens in india, vis-a-vis my being a muslim, i can quietly exit to a safer area......

.......this is what a federated, though united india would have done, for muslims........having said that, the one group that can, genuinely, complain about partition, are indian muslims.......who were left neither here, nor there.....

......one needs to keep two points in mind, however.....the first is that jinnah and the muslim league never predicted kashmir......so in a sense that is where the problem started.....i would blame nehru for that, as jinnah and gandhi were ready to solve it on a plebescite (as was nehru at one point).......had kashmir not happened, i am 100% convinced pakistan and india would be like the eu of today....people would have been going back and forth easily, as if there were no border......

the second point is that if one, specifically, wants to look at the condition of the individuals living in what constitutes pakistan today, one can safely say, they have benefited hugely from pakistan........this region was the boondocks of india......much of it was actually land taken from afghanistan, by the british.....it has almost zero universities, industry, education, etc........

......this region would have remained backwards, without pakistan, as the educated manpower of this geographical region would have migrated to delhi, bombay, and now bangalore etc.....making it even more backwards.......there would have been no reason to put up industry here, etc....there would be a little karachi, no islamabad, a little faisalabad....no large dams......other than a larger lahore, there would be nothing much west of it.......it would not have made economic sense for a united india, to invest in baluchistan, nwfp, sind and even in most of pakistan's punjab......

so the best solution, at least in my opinion, is an economic union of south asia, with open borders, a single currency, and political autonomy/freedom for any region that wants it.......basically the cabinet mission plan of sorts.......

Re: # 37

Masadi mian,

While I continue to civilly respond to your load of crap, you keep abusing me because you are a small minded person without any proper argument. Now you are contradicting yourself. You basically have no proper answer to why people of Pakistan responded to Fatima Jinnah so warmly - as to give her greater support than even that which Bhutto was to get later.

Re: # 35

Arjun:

Reading your response, and if Yasser is a young emerging leader of Pakistan. My "typo" has a meaning too, the two together show the gap between emerging muslim-India leaders and emerging muslim-Pakistan leaders.

Re #36, the fact of the deed and what transpired thereafter took care of that, the feudals still control Pakistan, and have insured that we remain with a backward third rate economic system that is a client and dependency of the West, what followed as human catastrophie were consequences that any person with half a brain would have known and the MAJ did but he didn't care about the human cost or the catastrophic consequences this would have for the Muslims of India. We now live in a country that is a whore of the West, whose leadership is leeching off the people, and whose people live in the most debilitating, depressing, barbaric poverty, with a totally pathetic outlook, that has reduced them into bondage and animal like existance. How can anyone seeing this and it is all around claim to have the morals to then say "we would not be industrialized had this not happened". Wake up fool

#40 Posted by MantoLives on September 16, 2007 1:08:28 pm


the Hindu majority has been successful in creating a constitutionally secular Indian republic and if it is allowed to work, logic states that Indian minorities will hopefuly get a level playing field.


Indian minorities do have a level playing field...Azim Premji is just one example of that..a level playing field doesn't mean every batsman who comes to the plate becomes as successful as tendulkar or miandad...

equality of opportunity doesn't mean a guarantee of equality of outcome..

if indian muslims lack behind, despite all other minorities - sikhs chritians and parsis - being ahead of the majority hindus, it's the fault of muslims...

Manto writes "Now you are contradicting yourself. You basically have no proper answer to why people of Pakistan responded to Fatima Jinnah so warmly"

I know you have lost every arguement that does not mean that you LIE so blatantly. They supported her (even though she lost as fact) because of the cultural factor of the MAJ and his invoking Islam and exclusion and the external enemy. That is all and that was it. There was no people mandate or democracy or food and shelter involved, period.

Sawal-e diger jawab-e diger -- the need of the MOMENT is not de-Bhuttofication but de-Musharrafication of Pakistan governance -- "eight is enough".

For hazrat-e daagh -- Pakistan needs a strong stain remover that will not damage the fabric -- before someone uses pure bleach.

Re: # 39

SRK,

I am afraid I cannot agree with that statement.

1. Karachi and Dacca emerged as large cities with human capital because of Pakistan. You may compare the populations etc pre- and post-. Both these cities owe their rise to their importance as capital(s) of Pakistan... Dacca being the alternating capital of Pakistan as well as the provincial capital of East Pakistan. Dacca came out of the shadow of Calcutta ... while Karachi became the full fledge new capital of the fifth largest state of the world.

2. Your claim that Jinnah did not have plans for industrialisation etc is probably because you haven't actually read a book on Jinnah. Jinnah was well known for his keen interest in economy.

In late 1946 and early 1947 when Pakistan almost became certain... Jinnah had set up a shipping company i.e. Muhammadi Shipping Company with the help of Ardeshir Cowasjee's father, the Orient Airways (which became PIA) with help from M A Isphahani... and had managed to bring to Pakistan the Munoos, Habibs and Sehgals etc big Industrial families ... though he failed to bring on board Azeem Premji's father ... a good friend of Jinnah's who was steeped in his business in India. Jinnah even got his very strict Hindu friend Dalmiya to set up his enterprise in Pakistan. Jinnah was also responsible for setting up hundreds of presses, newspapers, magazines, colleges and Banks which showed that he was operating on over all vision. A commission of leading businessmen had been working on the industrial policy which is was unveiled shortly afterwards.

It was these efforts that managed to sustain Pakistan in that early difficult period.