The need for De-Bhuttofication of the Pakistan People's Party

The bias and lack of credible evidence is witnessed throughout this badly written and quickly put together article. Not only that the author has borrowed my term De-Jinnahfication of Pakistan and put "De-Bhuttofication" in the title showing that as an infant at the "monkey see monkey do" stage his intellect only allows blind copy paste and copying the thoughts of others.

Finally this whole article is dismantled when we recognize and the author recognizes the fact that without the person of ZAB, the party would have amounted to nothing regardless of the left intellectuals- and certainly there was more than one in Pakistan-, and then why would ZAB who was a major force in the party choose such "friends" if he was wavering in following the left agenda. Further there is no evidence that the party PPP with a new socialist/anti imperialist platform wanted to "pick up where Jinnah left off", these are just the ramblings of the High Priest of the Church of MAJ trying to revive a dead cult.

The fact is that Jinnah not only used slogans of "Islam" for his own perverse ends, he knew nothing about it, he badly and forever damaged the political power of Muslims in the Sub Continent, and hobnobbed with the feudals and colonials, isolated the Bengali Muslims, and nipped in the bud what could have been a democratically governed Pakistan because having a democracy in Pakistan was not in the plans (though might be in the popular slogans even of dictators like Musharraf)of either the colonials or their man in the West, MAJ.

Regarding de-bhuttofication, ZAB was popular because of his platform, Benazir is leeching off her father's popularity, as is the case unfortunately in our parts of the world where family ties and recognition even overpower gender and ethnic discrimination. Without ZAB charisma and properly communicated agenda, the party is nothing and will become nothing.....while MAJ and his shenanigans were exposed to the people long ago and I can bet you my parker pen that were recognition of MAJ and recognition of ZAB to compete in an election today ZAB would beat MAJ hands down regardless of BS polls, that kind that Manto has been quoting...

The Church of the MAJ is dead in Pakistan, its High Priest is on the run (Maybe on a motorcycle like Mullah Omar)...

PPPP is nothing but a dramai bazi democratic party...

Bainzair is teh most corruptest lady of the world....

there is no election within party..

BB is life time vaderan and chairman...

PPPP needs brave man like ch Ietzaz Ahsan to lead this party...

Masadi,

Bhutto had no platform except self aggrandization. As for your allegations against Jinnah... they would be worth talking about if you had anything substantial. As is, it is worst than your diatribe against the US elite and perhaps the Jewish lobby.

On the other hand PPP has potential... which is why I will vote for it if it can bury the ghost of the Raja of Larkana.

Re: # 1

You would be a sorry man without a parker pen if you did that

While Jinnah's appeal was such that his sister brought together the most disparate of forces in the East and West Pakistan... zulfi Bhutto managed to win elections only by either getting the army to rig them in 1970 or rig them himself in 1977.

While Jinnah's memory has endured... Bhutto is not even the main plank of the PPPP. Even Benazir Bhutto after landing in Pakistan will go directly to Jinnah's Mausoleum not Bhutto's ... on 18th October.

PPP has much to offer - more than any other political party. And De-Bhuttofication will go a long way in ridding the party of its abhorrent past.

Masadi: Your articles have no intellect, substance or standard what to speak of your comments. However if you try harder and not rely on random and/or spontaneous self-aggrandizing references, you may be able to improve.

Quite an apt explanation of the PPP.....

The day the Bhutto dynasty is out of PPP, is the day it will start turning into a real political party....It may also be the day, when democracy starts establishing itself in Pakistan......

However, I don't share the author's optimism on Bhuttos moving out so suddenly......I have it from the horses' mouths......Benazir has an iron grip on the party.....even moreso than the grip Musharraf has on the Army.....

PPP, at the moment, is a full 100% dictatorship, with no signs of the dicator losing her power.......

Aitezaz Ahsan, Raza Rabbanni, Yusuf Gilani, Sherry Rehman etc. do not have the courage to dump PPP and part ways with Benazir........As the Bhutto name (for some strange reason) still carries a lot of weight in Pakistan (specifically in Sindh)........

The Sherry Rehman's of the world are not politicians.......She couldn't get elected anywhere.......Such individuals are gaining prominence, solely, because they have jumped on the Benazir bandwagon.....Aitezaz Ahsan and Gilani etc. are true politicians, with thier own followings.........Gilani spent four to five years in jail, under Musharraf, without being convicted.......Naveed Qamar spent over two years in jail, under Musharraf, without being convicted.......True political prisoners, who refused to leave PPP.......They must be fuming at Benazir's deal with Musharraf......

Will the have the courage to tell Benazir to take a hike and to then take over the PPP? That is the million dollar question.......My answer is they will not......

Manto mian,

PPP is as likely to bury the ghost of the Bhoots as INC that of the Gandhi-Nehru. And remember INC has been unable to banish the ghosts of the Gandhi-Nehrus in spite of the fact that it has a much longer history and a much stronger organisation. The fault I guess is of the people of the sub-continent who themselves have a feudal mentality and are unable to see beyond their mai baap family. The only thing is that the electoral politics would render the mother parties (INC/PPP) irrelevant in the long run anyway.

Regards

Romair saheb,

Agree with each and every thing u said.

Regards

Manto writes -
"People like Dadabhoy Naoroji, Gokhale, Tilak, Jinnah, Patel and Mohandas Gandhi (no blood relation to Nehru-Gandhi dynasty) were all famous leaders who had helped build the Congress Party."

Guys, manto wrote a complimentary sentence about Gandhi putting him in the same sentence with Jinnah!! Did the sun rise from the west today? :-)

ZAB's platform and mandate were the people and they loved and supported him, BB is trying to leech off that support, Fatima Jinnah's platform was her criminal brother MAJ's religious exclusion and seperation platform. That is how the consciousness of the people is manipulated in our society by use of religion and family. End of story.

What happened to the PPP is not ZAB's fault, without him the party was nothing, zero, nada, even today were his association with the party to end, it would become a non factor again, which dont get me wrong would be a good thing because that party has been coopted, that is why the Americans who had a part to play in the killing of her father are now wooing her.

Manto, the High Priest of the dead and buried church of MAJ, wants to perpetuate the desires of the colonials and the feudals by trying to bad mouth, using BS, the only leader we had that went against the local and international elite, in his platform, in his speeches and as much as he could as fact. ZAB captured the spirit of resistance that was sweeping the Third World in the 1960s and 1970s and the defeat of the people by the imperialist forces culminated in his barbarous, illegitmate, unjust hanging by the Zia ul Fcuq, the commander of the US occupation force in Pakistan.

Of course bulleya will try to cloud the issues, he is the spokesperson for this occupation force on Chowk and of course Manto will try to put down ZAB, because he knows that the de-Jinnafication (a term that he perverted to de-Bhuttofication, copying from me) began with the ZAB and has reached culmination because of those efforts. The time for our emancipation is nigh......

Re:masadi#1
"The fact is that Jinnah not only used slogans of "Islam" for his own perverse ends, he knew nothing about it, he badly and forever damaged the political power of Muslims in the Sub Continent"

Masadi, your last part of this sentence is absolutely correct. Jinnah indeed damaged the political power of muslims forever by marginalizing them to the fringes of the subcontinent, while leaving the lion share to an overwhelming hindu majority. This is precisely why Sardar Patel was more than eager to call Jinnah's bluff and precipitate partition including that of Punjab and Bengal.

There is no doubt that in a united India, muslims would have wielded massive political clout, probably by aligning themselves with lower caste hindus. Within a few years of independence, we would have likely seen muslim rule in India again, of course with allies from hindus. We see some of that alignment even today in India, but muslims no longer have the numbers to actually wrest political power.

Ranjit writes "Masadi, your last part of this sentence is absolutely correct. Jinnah indeed damaged the political power of muslims forever by marginalizing them to the fringes of the subcontinent"

Jinnah was a representative of the feudals and the colonials he did not care about the Muslim masses, [unlike the ZAB who was the voice of the people against the few feudal families that were controlling politics in Pakistan]- the irrefutable fact of which is his treatment of the Bengali Muslims, and how the common man fared in the West as well, as well as the fact that by setting himself up as King of the country he was anti-people whose only popular mandate was based on religious exclusion and invoking an external enemy much like the US elite are doing these days with Muslims for ulterior motive....His shenanigans have long been exposed, just today I was talking to a retired professor and he said that we did not make this country it was "given" to us for ulterior motive- This outpost of the colonials has been a catastrophie for the Muslims of India both in the Pakistan area and in the rest of the country, and except for the Feudals and the colonials who made us an outpost, nobody else benefitted from this arrangement. I credit ZAB for trying his best to minimize the harm for the common folk, leaders like him are our only hope. Slowly but surely the de-Jinnafication of this society has begun....inshallah...

rozaiba writes "Masadi: Your articles have no intellect, substance or standard what to speak of your comments."

Why don't you show us what you have produced, all I see is cheerleading with BS comments. If you can't do that, and you surely cannot and have not produced comparable material to my articles then might I politely suggest: shut the hell up

Ironic that Jinnah who was from a middle class background and rose through hard work, honesty and integrity was according to Masadi some sort of a representative of the feudals.

Meanwhile Pakistan's biggest feudal leader who discredited all left liberal forces for ever in Pakistan Mr. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto is some how the biggest champion of the masses.

And Bhutto who plotted and planned against the Bengali people with the Army and refused to acknowledge their mandate in Pakistan ... was some how a champion of Bengali people as well.

Dear Ranjit,

Your agreement with Masadi flies in the face of reality.

Atleast for people like me, it was Pakistan which led to a industrialisation and creation of bourgeoisie which would have never happened otherwise. The principle of division of labour would have ensured that this region i.e. modern Pakistan would forever be confined to agriculture and martial pursuits... especially the Muslims of this region while the capital of mostly Hindu and Sikh bourgeoisie would have continued to flow to the stock exchange in Bombay.

In retrospect ... one could hold Jinnah responsible for one major issue: His creation gave people like Muhammed Asadi, who would probably not be more than a havaldar in the United Indian Army, an opportunity to masquerade as "professors" and inundate the world with recycled regurgitated crap in the academic scholarship.

But then again Jinnah had no idea that Masadi's kind lurked in shadows.

-YLH


PS to Masadi: Fatima Jinnah's platform was clearly Mahomed Ali Jinnah's vision of a modern democratic inclusive and egalitarian state for all citizens of Pakistan.

But lets humor you. If it was as you say it was... could you explain why people like Wali Khan and NAP leaders who had opposed the creation of Pakistan because they believed in Congress' vision for a United India also supported Fatima Jinnah?

If you do the math you'll see that Fatima Jinnah - despite awful rigging by Ayub Khan and his flunkie Bhutto- still won more percentage votes than Zulfikar Ali Bhutto did in 1970.

PPS: I write as some one who used to admire Bhutto even more than Masadi.

But I consider it my graduation to maturity that I no longer hold such views about a toady feudal who was adept at fooling the people.

Manto writes "Atleast for people like me, it was Pakistan which led to a industrialisation and creation of bourgeoisie which would have never happened otherwise"

What industrialization, I fail to see it and what bourgeoisie, it is still a feudal country. Have you ever bothered to read the figures regarding social indicators of Pakistan and its labor force? Had Muslim political power not been fragmented in India, it would certainly have achieved much more then they can now after the event of the catastrophie caused to them by MAJ. Whether he arose from the sewers or the Middle Class makes not difference after you see the deed that he did that was in line with colonial and feudal desires, this is a fact that nobody except someone with faith in his god, MAJ, contests....You have lost every single argument on here and still keep repeating your BS without a single fact. That I am a professor has nothing to do with MAJ, it has everything to do with being born in relative privilage compared to the masses whose condition has just going from bad to worse thanks to the MAJ and his shenanigans...this is the calibre of your "evidence". You have been thoroughly and completely defeated, the Church of the MAJ has been routed, is dead and buried and its high priest is on the run (maybe on a motorcycle like Mullah Omar). CASE CLOSED

Re: # 14

"If you can't do that, and you surely cannot and have not produced comparable material to my articles then might I politely suggest: shut the hell up"

Oh great scholar: No one can produce comparable crap to the kind of crap you've produced again and again.

Re:manto
"Atleast for people like me, it was Pakistan which led to a industrialisation and creation of bourgeoisie which would have never happened otherwise."

Manto, this could have happened in a united India as well. India's middle class has expanded signficantly and continues to grow. There is no reason why it wouldnt have happened in a united India as well. The difference is that talented and educated muslims like yourself would have been a part of it and expanded it further, unlike the present situation where only the backward sections of muslims were left behind. As an example look at how bulleya is participating in the thick of things in India.

The fact is that India was an economic superpower before the british showed up when we all lived together. In fact, India had never been a poor country for the past 2000 years before that. Probably some people in your ancestry came to India because it was a rich place. Because of the british, we became impoverished beyond imagination. At the time of the british raj, the only jobs open to educated people were government jobs. That was the reason for so much anxiety over who formed a government, which was a big motivation for the call to partition. Look at the situation now where no one really cares about who is in power as long as the economy booms and you can make money.

From a strictly numbers point of view, upper caste hindus are a much smaller minority than muslims and have sharp divisions with the lower castes. Indeed we are seeing that lower castes are getting political power all over India. Thats why I am suggesting that in a united india, lower castes and muslims would have aligned to control power in the entire country.

Masadi 18,

Yawn. Let me repeat:

In retrospect ... one could hold Jinnah responsible for one major issue: His creation gave people like Muhammed Asadi, who would probably not be more than a havaldar in the United Indian Army, an opportunity to masquerade as "professors" and inundate the world with recycled regurgitated crap in the academic scholarship.

You are ignorant of history and other academic disciplines so one can forgive you...

However... in 1930's census Punjab (the most developed of the "regulated" British provinces- Regulated meant ruled by the commissioner and deputy commissioner... with less powers for the elected institutions) had only 80 000 Industrial workers... in contrast to Bombay which had 400 000 and Bengal which 400 000 + industrial workers.

Before Pakistan came about the industrial units were next to nothing. It was the responsibility of having to run an independent state... where there were no factories to process raw materials in that forced Muslims of this region to get a move on.

Everything evolves. Pakistan's problems are not the result of the man who tried to solve them i.e. Jinnah. Pakistan was doing just well till Bhutto came along with his nationalisation and his full frontal attack on the industrial class (instead of the feudal class which ZAB protected) which destroyed the political evolution.

The provinces that constituted India had a long history of bourgeoisie-run and fuelled democratic institutions before independence... which is precisely why even the leadership of Pakistan movement was largely India-based. There were no bourgeoisie national leaders of the stature of Jinnah amongst the Punjabis or Sindhis... even though there were a couple of capable men in Bengal... Suhrawardy, Fazlul Haq and M A Isphahani.

So it is quite clear that without Pakistan you atleast would never have made it out of your village .. other than as a hawaldar in the Indian Army.

Re: # 20

Ranjit mian,

It wouldn't have. You have to see the distinction between the regulated and non-regulated provinces... during British India.

Logic of economics suggests that Pakistan's creation - with which largely fuelled the bourgeoisie here .... and created atleast three major economic centres in East and West Pakistan (Karachi, Dacca and now Islamabad) which were previously provincial backwaters... is what got us here.

PS: Now where do you think Bulleya would be had it not been for Pakistan?

The reason he can participate in the thick of things in India today has a logical trajectory which would just not have existed?

"The principle of division of labour would have ensured that this region i.e. modern Pakistan would forever be confined to agriculture and martial pursuits... especially the Muslims of this region while the capital of mostly Hindu and Sikh bourgeoisie would have continued to flow to the stock exchange in Bombay."

Yep, Mr. Jinnah and Muslim League leader had planned
ethnic cleansing of Hindus and Sikhs long ago.
Had nothing to do with partitioning Bengal and Punjab,
nothing to do with Gurdaspur.
Even if they had gotten all of Punjab and Bengal,
Hindus and Sikhs were going to be evicted and killed.
Truly evil and vicious people the IML leaders were.

Not true. All the facts point in a completely different direction Shishapa.

It was Congress' machinations on Gurdaspur that led to the violence and the bloodshed.

Re: # 25

PS: You may wish to read Khushwant Singh... who was a Sikh in Lahore ... who says so very clearly that Jinnah tried very hard to keep Hindus and Sikhs in Punjab ...

It was going to be Pakistan's obvious advantage ... because Hindu bourgeoisie would naturally remain in Pakistan and because of the border would have fuelled new industrialisation in Punjab and Sindh ....instead of Bombay and other parts of India.

So Hindu Bourgeoisie's departure actually created problems for Pakistan and slowed down the obvious benefits of the arrangement... which is why Jinnah was so adamant about keeping them in Pakistan.

Manto writes "But lets humor you. If it was as you say it was... could you explain why people like Wali Khan and NAP leaders who had opposed the creation of Pakistan because they believed in Congress' vision for a United India also supported Fatima Jinnah?"

Have you lost all sense of time? The deed was done, the alliance was merely for the sake of political power and not any "people mandate". How does this support your point. All it does is support my point that invoking religious exclusion and an external enemy produces group solidarity and MAJ had cultural support because of that which the FJ wanted to cash in for ulterior political motive. CASE CLOSED

Regarding your numbers about Bombay and Punjab, even that proves my case, the bourgeoisie are the death knell for feudals, the feudals in Pakistan consolidated their position not only by not allowing industrialization by hobnobbing with the colonials - we are still a feudal country, they were able to isolate themselves from the rural revolts in India, capitalized upon by Gandhi, that would have spelt the end of them. If Muslim political power was not fragmented we would certainly not be in this mess we are today both inside Pakistan and outside it in the Sub Continent. What I talk about are clear deduction from facts, the BS you spew are wild allegations at the very best....

Hmm, if Pakistan was created for Muslims, where was the
need for Hindus and Sikhs?

Re:manto

Manto, you have to look at the big picture and not just the industrialization of Islamabad. Consider the status of muslims all over India before the british rule. Consider it now after british rule. Can you say that they are better off now as compared to the past when India was united? If muslims had managed to form an alliance with sections of hindus and gained overall political power, wouldnt they have been better off?

Enough now, I said CASE CLOSED You have lost every single argument and have not addressed even one of mine, not one. You just respond with more BS and unreasoned details. I know you worship the MAJ, I care less that you do, but I wont let your worship of him keep our people in bondage, enough is enough, the minds of the people of Pakistan have to be de-Jinnafied, and the process began long ago, with the ZAB when economic issues and not theological seperation produced consciousness in our people. May Allah bless the ZAB for that and may he damn and curse the MAJ using Islam as a tool for ulterior motive and scapegoating the Muslims of India. CASE CLOSED, If you have something further to say, here is my response:go to hell Manto and give the MAJ some company, he needs it badly....

Masadi mian,

Wrong on both counts.

1. You contradict yourself when you claim that the NAP supported Fatima Jinnah for power reasons ... if that was the case why didn't the NAP join up with the Pathan Ayub Khan who was a sure shot winner... because surely Wali Khan wouldn't have gotten to be the President either way. The 1965 election was fought for Jinnah's democratic vision of Pakistan v. Ayub's militarised vision... it was not about power per se... nor were many of the participants going to taste any power.

2. Facts blow a million holes in your naive analysis. The Communist Party of India came out heavily in the favor of the Muslim League in 1940s because in their analysis Muslim League was the only party capable of undoing the feudal Unionist Party. It is true that many of the Unionists then broke ranks and joined the Muslim League in 1946-1947.... but in main the Communist Party's analysis was right: Pakistan was necessary for the creation of a national bourgeoisie in this region. To use the Stalinist vocabulary... it was the second step that they miscalculated on...

Without Pakistan... Muslims of this region would still be stuck in agriculture and the martial race myth.

Re: # 30

Claiming that you won any argument is just stupid and idiotic but you may go on claiming that.

Re: # 29

Ranjit:

A great scenario that you have painted. This is happening in India, and does not need Pakistan or Yasser. Yasser is a budding lawyer and smart person who can lead Pakistan.

Delienation of Pakistan from India is going to be very healthy for India and especially muslim-India, which is now producing better muslim-Indian leaders.

Yasser has his work cut out in India.

#31 Posted by MantoLives on September 16, 2007 12:59:25 pm


Without Pakistan... Muslims of this region would still be stuck in agriculture and the martial race myth.


Nice try...before 1965, purelanders were completely on board with the whole martial races thing...which is why they tried a land grab for kashmir and got their teeth kicked in...

it's amazing that a person who remembers the texture of jinnah's poop on some obscure date doesn't remember the whole 1 paki = 10 hindus myth...

#33 Posted by anil on September 16, 2007 1:01:42 pm


Yasser is a budding lawyer and smart person who can lead Pakistan.


Yasser is an ahmedi..which means the chances of him of leading pureland are between none and the number hindus never tire people of telling they invented...

besides, he professes to be a believer in secularism and wants islam to be a private thing...clearly, he's out of step with the vast majority of the indian population...

Re: # 31

Perhas the correct statement would be

"Without Pakistan and with Hindus and Sikhs in this
Pakistan... Muslims of this region would still be stuck in agriculture and the martial race myth."

I think this was recognized by Mr. Jinnah and
Muslim League leaders and they worked on this and
took care of it.

Manto writes "You contradict yourself when you claim that the NAP supported Fatima Jinnah for power reasons ... if that was the case why didn't the NAP join up with the Pathan Ayub Khan "

An alliance against the dictator sides with FJ only because they want to cash in on the cultural factor of the MAJ popularity- this is power politics and not a people's mandate, neither did the people support FJ because of a "democracy" mandate and the Kingship of the MAJ is closer to and was a direct reason for the "military vision" that followed thereafter. MAJ was anti people just like the military dictators, even they talk the democracy talk but don't walk that walk. I did not contradict myself and am not wrong on any count. You on the other don't even know what your points are so you jump from one to the other, around and across like a rat whose tail is on fire....now go to hell

Re: # 33

Sorry, I meant "Yasser has his work cut out in Pakistan"

There are number of cities in India that saw industrialization after the creation of Pakistan. Bangalore, Hyderabad, Coimbatore, Pune and number of cities in Gujarat. With so much human capital in Karachi and Dacca, i do not think they would have left behind.

The fact is Jinnah wanted a separate country for Muslims no matter what. He and the other upper Muslim class leaders clearly did not like the idea of living under the rule of any Hindu majority government even if it was secular. Jinnah clearly did not have any great plans for the future industrialization/economy of the newly formed country. I do not blame him for that, all the leaders of that time were busy fighting for independence attending to the immediate needs.

Re: # 29

Ranjit,

I am afraid you are looking at the whole issue very naively and not in terms of economics and the well being as a whole. Its not the industrialisation of Islamabad but whole of Pakistan region.

Over all... everyone gets to win in this scenario- despite the mistakes and flaws in the way partition was carried out. Muslims on the two sides of the subcontinent have their nation states which they can develop according to their lights ... the Hindu majority has been successful in creating a constitutionally secular Indian republic and if it is allowed to work, logic states that Indian minorities will hopefuly get a level playing field.

As for the spectre you are raising ... of the power and prestige of the Indian Muslims pre-British... I am afraid pre-industrial situations have no bearing on the post industrial revolution period.

Still the Cabinet Mission Plan- that Jinnah accepted- which would have given Muslim League and the Muslims a lot of clout... but that was rejected by Nehru and Patel in the best interest of the Hindu Majority - or so we are told by those who dispute the usefulness of the Cabinet Mission Plan.

Ranjit #: "As an example look at how bulleya is participating in the thick of things in India."

....interesting comments.....i agree with quite a bit of what you are saying.......and disagree with some of it...

....i think the best solution for india would have been what jinnah, originally, wanted.....the more time i spend travelling in the region, the more sure i am becoming of it....

.......this was a federated india, with muslim majority provinces having some autonomy, but being a part of a united india.....it would have given muslims enough security, while allowing them to participate in a united india.....

in a sense that is the setup i am in.....i can come and go to india, participate in it if i want.......without any fear or insecurity, because my nationality lies somewhere else......if something happens in india, vis-a-vis my being a muslim, i can quietly exit to a safer area......

.......this is what a federated, though united india would have done, for muslims........having said that, the one group that can, genuinely, complain about partition, are indian muslims.......who were left neither here, nor there.....

......one needs to keep two points in mind, however.....the first is that jinnah and the muslim league never predicted kashmir......so in a sense that is where the problem started.....i would blame nehru for that, as jinnah and gandhi were ready to solve it on a plebescite (as was nehru at one point).......had kashmir not happened, i am 100% convinced pakistan and india would be like the eu of today....people would have been going back and forth easily, as if there were no border......

the second point is that if one, specifically, wants to look at the condition of the individuals living in what constitutes pakistan today, one can safely say, they have benefited hugely from pakistan........this region was the boondocks of india......much of it was actually land taken from afghanistan, by the british.....it has almost zero universities, industry, education, etc........

......this region would have remained backwards, without pakistan, as the educated manpower of this geographical region would have migrated to delhi, bombay, and now bangalore etc.....making it even more backwards.......there would have been no reason to put up industry here, etc....there would be a little karachi, no islamabad, a little faisalabad....no large dams......other than a larger lahore, there would be nothing much west of it.......it would not have made economic sense for a united india, to invest in baluchistan, nwfp, sind and even in most of pakistan's punjab......

so the best solution, at least in my opinion, is an economic union of south asia, with open borders, a single currency, and political autonomy/freedom for any region that wants it.......basically the cabinet mission plan of sorts.......

Re: # 37

Masadi mian,

While I continue to civilly respond to your load of crap, you keep abusing me because you are a small minded person without any proper argument. Now you are contradicting yourself. You basically have no proper answer to why people of Pakistan responded to Fatima Jinnah so warmly - as to give her greater support than even that which Bhutto was to get later.

Re: # 35

Arjun:

Reading your response, and if Yasser is a young emerging leader of Pakistan. My "typo" has a meaning too, the two together show the gap between emerging muslim-India leaders and emerging muslim-Pakistan leaders.

Re #36, the fact of the deed and what transpired thereafter took care of that, the feudals still control Pakistan, and have insured that we remain with a backward third rate economic system that is a client and dependency of the West, what followed as human catastrophie were consequences that any person with half a brain would have known and the MAJ did but he didn't care about the human cost or the catastrophic consequences this would have for the Muslims of India. We now live in a country that is a whore of the West, whose leadership is leeching off the people, and whose people live in the most debilitating, depressing, barbaric poverty, with a totally pathetic outlook, that has reduced them into bondage and animal like existance. How can anyone seeing this and it is all around claim to have the morals to then say "we would not be industrialized had this not happened". Wake up fool

#40 Posted by MantoLives on September 16, 2007 1:08:28 pm


the Hindu majority has been successful in creating a constitutionally secular Indian republic and if it is allowed to work, logic states that Indian minorities will hopefuly get a level playing field.


Indian minorities do have a level playing field...Azim Premji is just one example of that..a level playing field doesn't mean every batsman who comes to the plate becomes as successful as tendulkar or miandad...

equality of opportunity doesn't mean a guarantee of equality of outcome..

if indian muslims lack behind, despite all other minorities - sikhs chritians and parsis - being ahead of the majority hindus, it's the fault of muslims...

Manto writes "Now you are contradicting yourself. You basically have no proper answer to why people of Pakistan responded to Fatima Jinnah so warmly"

I know you have lost every arguement that does not mean that you LIE so blatantly. They supported her (even though she lost as fact) because of the cultural factor of the MAJ and his invoking Islam and exclusion and the external enemy. That is all and that was it. There was no people mandate or democracy or food and shelter involved, period.

Sawal-e diger jawab-e diger -- the need of the MOMENT is not de-Bhuttofication but de-Musharrafication of Pakistan governance -- "eight is enough".

For hazrat-e daagh -- Pakistan needs a strong stain remover that will not damage the fabric -- before someone uses pure bleach.

Re: # 39

SRK,

I am afraid I cannot agree with that statement.

1. Karachi and Dacca emerged as large cities with human capital because of Pakistan. You may compare the populations etc pre- and post-. Both these cities owe their rise to their importance as capital(s) of Pakistan... Dacca being the alternating capital of Pakistan as well as the provincial capital of East Pakistan. Dacca came out of the shadow of Calcutta ... while Karachi became the full fledge new capital of the fifth largest state of the world.

2. Your claim that Jinnah did not have plans for industrialisation etc is probably because you haven't actually read a book on Jinnah. Jinnah was well known for his keen interest in economy.

In late 1946 and early 1947 when Pakistan almost became certain... Jinnah had set up a shipping company i.e. Muhammadi Shipping Company with the help of Ardeshir Cowasjee's father, the Orient Airways (which became PIA) with help from M A Isphahani... and had managed to bring to Pakistan the Munoos, Habibs and Sehgals etc big Industrial families ... though he failed to bring on board Azeem Premji's father ... a good friend of Jinnah's who was steeped in his business in India. Jinnah even got his very strict Hindu friend Dalmiya to set up his enterprise in Pakistan. Jinnah was also responsible for setting up hundreds of presses, newspapers, magazines, colleges and Banks which showed that he was operating on over all vision. A commission of leading businessmen had been working on the industrial policy which is was unveiled shortly afterwards.

It was these efforts that managed to sustain Pakistan in that early difficult period.

#41 Posted by bulleya on September 16, 2007 1:11:15 pm


had kashmir not happened,


capt clueless...tsunamis, earthquakes and flood happen...what "happened" in kashmir was entirely your own doing...you thought you could use force to get kashmir and when the force was answered with force, you whine about thing "happening"

the fact remains that india is now in a completely different league from pureland and that really really is hard for purelanders to swallow...the fact is that india doesn't need pureland anymore than it needs bangladesh..it's doing fine without things being any different with pakiland..a fact that the world has ackowledged..

thanks to the creation of pakiland, the world now knows one country for IT and the other for IT(islamic terrorism)....


again..that has nothing to do with jinnah, a pork eating scotch drinking lawyer..manto tell us, and I entirely agree, that he wanted a secular pakiland..to the extent an islamic country can be secular...the reason you messed up jinnah's vision is because of kashmir..you let the camel under the tent because you badly wanted kashmir..the camel couldn't get you kashmir but, in the process, took over pakiland..

Re: # 46

Madadi where have I lost these arguments that you've won? You've failed to answer my question... respond with only abuse... have not backed up any single one of your assertions and yet I have lost every single argument.

Perhaps you should see a psychiatrist or something.

south asia should have been like canada, with quebec.....a looser version of it......quebec is a large geographical area (larger than france), with a tiny population of around 8 million people.......tiny, in the sense that it, being a french province, is surrounded in all directions by 320 million english speakers, spread out all over north america...

.....quebec should have been swallowed up by english langauge, culture, traditions, etc........yet it survives...so much so that when i go to quebec, i see more, "french" than when i go to france and belgium.....luxembourg is the only country, which i can compare to quebec, in terms of lack of english speakers in a primarily french state......

.......quebec, in some ways is a thorn in canada's side.....at the same time, it defines canada....instead of being overwhelmed by canada, it has overwhelmed canada.......it has made canada an officially bi-lingual state.....everything in canada has to be in english and french......all airline crew and military officers have to be bi-lingual......

nearly every major prime minister of canada, in the recent years - martin, chretien, mulroney, tredeau have come from quebec, as quebec voters hold the deciding vote in who will become pm.....

around a decade ago, quebec came within 1% of actually initiating a separation from canada.....which would have led to an odd situation, where quebec residents could have remained citizens of canada (and quebec), as canada allows dual citizenship, while canadian would not be quebec citizens!!

.....quebec and how it fits into canada, turns politics on its head......quebecers(?) must be the most powerful and well looked after minority in the world......

i think this is what a cabinet mission type situation would have given muslims in india......maybe that is why nehru rejected it.........

Re: # 48

PS: Also this characterisation of Jinnah who was for 3 decades hailed as the best ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity and who even in 1946 bent over backwards on his own demand of Pakistan to come to an agreement with the Congress is quite sad.

By the way according to the survey conducted by an Indian pollster in August... 43% of Indians have a favorable view of Jinnah ... ( according to the same survey 97% of Pakistanis admire Jinnah intensely... Gandhi is 85% in India and 29% in Pakistan)... so one hopes a better understand of partition and Pakistan might be possible in coming years.

understanding...

anil #33: "Delienation of Pakistan from India is going to be very healthy for India and especially muslim-India, which is now producing better muslim-Indian leaders."

......i am not sure how long it has been since you have been to india.....i suggest you take regular trips.......

.....muslims in south asia are in bad shape....they are in bad shape in pakistan and bangladesh......and also in india....

.....while i tend to agree with your analysis of muslims in pakistan, i am afraid your analysis of muslims in india, is quite a bit off target....

i have seen enough of india now, to realize that muslims aren't doing too well, there......that would be an understatement....i sit in so many IT meetings, where i am the seniormost muslim......barring the odd azim premji, i see line after line of indian hindus (and christians, for that matter) executives achieving success; but ironically, i see no indian muslims......in fact, i saw hardly any in silicon valley or in my universities....

.....indian muslims future in india is hard to predict......indian hindus are, no doubt, making genuine progress........however, this is only increasing the gap with indian muslims, which could turn into an east and west pakistan type of situation.......with one community growing and the other falling behind, and feeling disenfranchised....

......pakistani muslims have done very well economically, by south asian standards, considering where the geogrphic region of pakistan started from......however, socially, culturally, politically, etc. they are in bad shape....as are bangladeshis....

Re: # 48

Yasser:

I disagree, Karachi and Dacca would have happened. There were people, who would have given the colors you would have liked and be proud.

Pakistan only gave them a color. Appropriate or inappropriate color, only time will tell. Although not a whole lot to brag about, regarding the kind of color to date.

If I my memory serves right, Azim Premji had mentioned to me that either his father's brother or his own brother chose to go to Pakistan. When he told me no one would have imagined he would achieve this pinnacle.

It is obvious why they are not mentioned in your list. And Azim is mentioned in Arjun and world's lists. He really converted a small unknown vanaspati oil company into an IT giant. His story can be taught at Harvard Business School. Obviously not that of his brother or uncle who went to Pakistan.

BBC did not bother to choose it, although comparisons of such families would be revealing, and show uselessness of religion beyond personal space.

My point here is that it is empowered people who make the difference.

Many tough questions blind followers of Jinnah have not asked. Jinnah knew he was not immortal, where was his succession plan for Pakistan? He must have known that he would not live long with the disease he and his doctors knew. He was also falliable. I was reading a review of a book on him, in The Daily Times that you must have read also.

I could see in it his reasons his drivers, that you may not but I did, and would love to share with you some day. Hero worship blinds too.

Coming to this article. Aren't you really trying to repaint PPP, and be outside it?

Kind of the similar mistake, Jinnah did, repaint India for its muslims to be outside of it?

Permanent changes are always from within. Unless you can root out the past, Islam has examples of this. Whereas Hinduism to Buddhism to Jainism to Sikhism are examples of the former.

Closing it, only thing that comes to my mind is the following line from a hindi song:

"Phir wohi apraadh mein har bar karta houn....
Aadmai houn aadmi se pyar karta houn...."

I'd take offence to anyone insulting Jinnah.

He will be awarded the future "Bharat ratna" for the service he did to the Indian non-Muslims..

We would be in Nigeria/Lebanon like situation if not for partition.. Hail Jinnah..

#54 Bulleya on progress of muslims ..

Your statements are right. Read the full article below 9/11 Wall Street Journal. Even in wipro, muslim software engineers are no more than 1-2%.
However, the fault lies with their urdu education etc. Good news - muslims are waking up.

SECULAR ENGINEER
How a Muslim Billionaire
Thrives in Hindu India
Mr. Premji Has Wealth
And Clout as Wipro Chief;
The Imam Disapproves
By YAROSLAV TROFIMOV
September 11, 2007; Page A1

(See Corrections & Amplifications item below.)

BANGALORE, India -- The world's richest Muslim entrepreneur defies conventional wisdom about Islamic tycoons: He doesn't hail from the Persian Gulf, he didn't make his money in petroleum, and he definitely doesn't wear his faith on his sleeve.

Dear Anil,

There is no logical reason for your optimism. Everything has cause and effect. Karachi and Dacca emerged because of the unique circumstances ... primarily the shift of focus from Delhi and Calcutta respectively. It wouldn't have happened ... had it not been for Jinnah.

Your Azim Premji claims plays into what I've saying all along. His brother or uncle who came to Pakistan were obviously going to a less industrialised and backward part of the subcontinent. I am afraid these arguments don't make logical sense ...

As for the succession plan issue... pray tell sir did Jinnah's demise lead to a war of succession in Pakistan Mughal style? Amazing.

Re: # 54

Roamir:

Yours is a very important post. I would love to discuss it with you. I realize that I have been away for a long time from India and the time has come to make a trip. I hope, before it, I would have the chance to know what you have discovered. I have an interesting plan to connect India's silk, bead and embroidery workers to the market through technology. As you know these are premodinantly muslim workers. Existing channels keep bulk of the profits elsewhere. I have been involved in doing similar in the backyard of America, like southwestern Colorado.

RE: The "Church of MAJ" and the "high priest" epithets.

While he did not have the moral courage to emulate Jinnah's integrity and honesty, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was one of the staunchest Jinnah-admirers.

I remember reading a passionate letter by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto to the Time Magazine in 1948 as a young student at University of Southern California .... in which he defended Jinnah tooth and nail... Similarly his book "Myth of Independence" and his speeches to the National Assembly in with his bitter attacks against those who he suspected of being abusive against Jinnah... all reveal Bhutto's intense devotion to Jinnah. Piloo Moody in his "Zulfi My Friend" has written extensively of how fanatical Bhutto was about Jinnah. Infact it was this that intrigued me to read more about the Quaid-e-Azam, as a Bhutto-admirer.

Why I might say that if there is such a thing as the "Church of MAJ" as Masadi puts it... Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was its first High Priest- albeit one who didn't practise what he preached. Suffice to say, and I'll bet my Mont Blanc pen on this (reference 1st post by Masadi on this board) that had Bhutto come across Masadi, he would have shoved Masadi's parker where the sun don't shine.

Just put this debate in some perspective.

Jinnah’s influence on Pakistan is undeniable. Almost all, who ruled Pakistan, had to take pictures in Jinnah cap and Sherwani. Ayub Khan did it, Even Nawaz Sharif did it but Bhutto was the one who took that to another level. He had his pictures taken in Jinnah cap, Sherwai and Shalwar and had them hang all over the country. He certainly looked better than Jinnah in that attire and perhaps Nawaz Sharif looked the most ridiculous.

Major parties in Pakistan emerged out of Muslim League. Both Awami League of Mujib and the PPP of Bhutto were formed by the former leaguers.

One of the many political undercurrents in Pakistan is still the clash between the nationalist Muslims who favored Congress and the Muslim leaguers who favored Jinnah. Pretty much all nationalists in Pakistan are pro congress and a majority of Islamists in Pakistan are still beholden to their old political alliance when majority of maulavis in India supported Congress. Over the last 60 years some Islamists saw an opportunity to bring Islamic rule to Pakistan and joined the army to pursue this goal but ideologically they still did not agree with the creation of Pakistan and continue their opposition to Jinnah.

The genuine left in Pakistan did not agree with Jinnah and his politics despite the communist party’s support of the ML right before the partition. Since the left is not in idol worshiping, they mostly stay away from this debate. Pakistani left sees problem in Pakistan not of Jinnah’s doing but as a part of the economic and political struggle and conflict in Pakistan and obviously after his death Jinnah had no influence on Pakistan’s economics and political progress. He is a name to be exploited. Similar is the case with Bhutto. I recommend people read my article on Bhutto on Chowk.

Bhutto’s initial popularity in Pakistan was his stand on Kashmir and anti India rhetoric. Afterwards he hooked up with the pro-china left of Mubasshar, Mairaj and Shaikh Rashid and was supported by liberals led by J A Rahim, his politics moved more towards an economic program. Before the pro-china left got close to Bhutto, it was the Communist Party of Pakistan that propped him up thru its various student and labor fronts. But Bhutto and the Communist Party ideologically were poles apart and moved their separate ways. The Communist Party in Pakistan never supported Bhutto in Pakistan after a brief honeymoon in 1967. The communists clashed with Bhutto violently after the 1973 military action in Baluchistan. The communist stayed away from the PNA movement in 1977 but after Bhutto was arrested they worked with Nusrat on her request to create an anti army alliance that did not last long too.

A word about Nationalization in Pakistan. Bhutto personally was not in favor of Nationalization but was pressured by the Mubashar, Mairaj and Shaikh Rashid group to do that. Later, in Nationalization, he saw an opportunity to inflict some damage to the industrialists and capitalist who had earlier refused to contribute to his Election campaign. The nationalization also led to major job creation in Pakistan. From 1973 to 1975 the unemployment has gone down. 1000s of Sindhi, Bloch and Pathan who otherwise would not have gotten a choice government job got a good start in the public sector.

HP,

"Major parties in Pakistan emerged out of Muslim League. Both Awami League of Mujib and the PPP of Bhutto were formed by the former leaguers."

That is a very important point that is often forgotten.


And this one too:

"One of the many political undercurrents in Pakistan is still the clash between the nationalist Muslims who favored Congress and the Muslim leaguers who favored Jinnah. Pretty much all nationalists in Pakistan are pro congress and a majority of Islamists in Pakistan are still beholden to their old political alliance when majority of maulavis in India supported Congress. Over the last 60 years some Islamists saw an opportunity to bring Islamic rule to Pakistan and joined the army to pursue this goal but ideologically they still did not agree with the creation of Pakistan and continue their opposition to Jinnah."


1965 was one opportunity where this current was overturned in many ways... with former Leaguers and former Congress-elements working together on both sides.

Yasser:

Pakistan only gave colors to Karachi and Dhaka. There was no IT industry, when Azim Premji disrupted his studies at Stanford to return and run after his father's death. It is all about empowered man. Jinnah and his doctors knew of his mortality. I am in agreement that succession Mughal style was not planned. By inference, the opposite - no succession mughal style - cannot be the plan either.

Prior to Pakistan's independence, what was his last legacy? Was it those 15 points that became 14 points? This is not a sincere question.

Who was equivalent of Dr. B. R. Ambedkar in contemporaneous Pakistan? According to you, B. R. Ambedkar was a critique of Nehru and Gandhi, have you ever wondered why was he still entrusted to come up with the constitution of India? Would Jinnah have allowed this to happen, can you point me to literature that would back your claims?

I have more not less questions, on your blind position on Jinnah. Chowk may not be the best place to discuss these, and soon this board will go down. I am interested in a more serious discussion with you.

#57 Posted by Pardesi

Pardesi,
Please read Farzana Versey's article in counterpunch.com that deals with this myth of "How a Muslim Billionaire
Thrives in Hindu India"

This is really annoying that some secularist present him as a muslim billionaire in HINDU india. Just try to understand the irony of the whole sh*t of this mulsim billionaire non sense.

Re: # 63

Yasser:

"This is not a sincere question."

Apologies, I meant "This is not an insincere question."

anil,

I think the typo says it all.

You can either rely on sound bytes or you can look at the salience of my argument. Either way it is your prerogative, loss or gain respectively.

Re: # 63

PS: According to Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Jinnah wanted him (Ghaffar Khan) to play the leading role in the politics of Pakistan. You may read Raj Mohan Gandhi's book on Ghaffar Khan where he says something to the effect. So there you have it... (even though I could have said Jogindranath Mandal but Mandal was pro-Jinnah through out).

The succession worked well. Nazimuddin became the Governor General on 12th September 1948 and Liaqat Ali Khan's ministry stayed in the government.

As for my "blind" position on Jinnah... it is only "blind" to you because you are blind to logic.

Farzana misses many important issues by miles. She belongs in a generation of Muslim-Indian leaders, who indeed were shell shocked due to what had happened. Unlike her, Azim Premji did not abdicate responsible leadership. Younger generation of Muslim Indians are making differences, unlike Farzana. These leaders are in Moradabad, they are in Benaras, they are in Mumbai - building the largest shoe company of India, they are building pharmaceutical company of India that is challenging established norms and provide affordable drugs and medicines.

HP sahib, leave muslim-Indian alone. Look in your asteen. Your nonsense makes me very angry. Are you ready to accept that for what you called me names, is no longer written on the walls. It is in your face also. Need reminding - Bhutto (=PPP) and Musharraff (=Army); Lal Masjid = Pakistani Jalianwala Bagh.

#68

"Leave Muslim-Indian alone"

Why why aren't we being all fiesty because something contradicted your lack of knowledge. A similar suggestion can be made to you anil: Leave this to us and concern yourself with Indians only. You may exit this board at any time.

Re: # 66

Yasser:

I knew you will come back on my typo. I stand guilty, it is truly easy for me to type India. Let me form my questions and then respond to the rest.

Re: # 69

Yasser:

I cannot leave this board, as I learn here. I hope that is not a problem for you.

Regarding, HP sahib, and his pronesity to use filthy words is my reason to suggest him. I apologize to you and him for suggesting it.

Anil mian,

Nothing you say can be a problem. It just that you don't have a solid point either way. Your aggrandization of the hell hole that is India is neither here nor there... since we are not discussing nor do we wish to discuss India on this board.

A visit to Pakistan would ofcourse set you straight on perceived greatness of India blah blah... but who the hell cares about what you think?

Enough learning?

Yasser:

I will never claim that my logic or for matter even my argument is perfect, for this reason I have more questions for you, and I am more interested in your answers than my own answers.

Now if you excuse me I'll eat some Sehri and have some shut eye.

Yasser:

I have never said India is a rose garden. Yes, I have not been to Pakistan. I had a chance to go with the TiE group, and had missed it. Everyone who went came back more positive and more educated then they went. This was a unanimous consensus.

#68 Posted by anil

"Your nonsense makes me very angry."

You don't have it in you to even understand what I write. That obviously makes you angry. A sign that you are still a child when it comes politics and stuff related to it.
Read some good books and study some better writers instead of reading and writing about azim premji etc.

In dec 2005? I was there.

Re: # 76

HP Sahib:

May be you do not have in it to understand beyond your marxist mypoia. Just ask yourself, why I could, and not you, figured out so much in advance and that you had to resort to using filthy words with me instead.

May be, just may be, over analysis takes away the vision. You would not see it this way, would you?

I have not only read books of interest and constantly add to them, but also have a great group of friends to enrichen my knowledge. My journey has been good thank you.

Ok I couldn't help but chip in... your comment vis a vis Mr. Premji (the colorful) v. only giving color to Karachi, Dacca (and ofcourse Islamabad Faisalabad etc) is illogical in its premise.

If you think about it ... it is just one color- bright red as it may be v. millions of colors....

Let's not get too excited my friends:

1. Manto - Anil is not commenting on condition of Pakistani Hindus or telling Pakistanis how to treat their minorities.

2. HP - I read Farzana's article. Honestly I do not not understand why she is so upset. Premji's success is a matter of pride for Indians because they feel vindicated that there are opportunities for every one if they put their efforts on getting right education. Muslim gettos are not due to any monstrous federal plan. Having said that, the other problem that minorities face (i.e., law and order 1984, 2002) are entirely different matter. I would submit that if minorities put all their efforts in proper education, and its corresponding economic success, they would also see marked improvement in their social standing and safety.

In jumps another genius...

Good night.

Perdesi,

Azim Premji is not a self made man. He owes a lot to a successful business helping create another one. I am sure in between he might have many other ventures that failed.

I generally don't read anil's post they are just too simplistic. I only read it when I saw his reference to Farzana.
I was responding to your post and not to any post by anil. As I said I generally don't pay attention to his posts.

What is the success ratio of mulsims in India compared to success of Muslims in Pakistan? Pakistani muslims in every which way are better off than the Indian Muslims.

Re: # 79

Dear Yasser:

"Ok I couldn't help but chip in... your comment vis a vis Mr. Premji (the colorful) v. only giving color to Karachi, Dacca (and ofcourse Islamabad Faisalabad etc) is illogical in its premise.

If you think about it ... it is just one color- bright red as it may be v. millions of colors.... "

I like the way you have drawn this analogy. I agree.

Let me draw one more - Islamabad (have not read about Faisalabad) is progress, just Azim's leadership to transform WIPRO from a small regional vanaspati oil company in IT giant.

Re: # 82

Now for new, something that HP sahib does not understand, he likes to call it simplistic. HP sahib, life is not at all logical or analytical. Besides one call only analyze afterwards.

In fact it consists mostly of very simple incidents. Most majors are accidents. So do not ignore simplicity, there is beauty in it.

My dear Manto, I wish you had held back on some of the scathing criticism of the Benazir (“incapable of appreciating a higher intellect”, etc.) You forget a very simple fact about democracy – it is the PEOPLE who decide who their rulers ought to be – faults notwithstanding. Tell me, which of the politicos are faultless? The reality is that other than the khakis, there are no real players than the BB and the NS – both of which you have so carelessly trashed again and again.

Remember, BB is from a new generation and there is little to suggest that – given an unencumbered hand – she would repeat the mistakes of the ZAB any more than, for example, being handed down the power of Pakistan, YOU would repeat the same mistakes that the MAJ did!

I know, I know – it is not much fun having to choose between the BB, the NS, the Mushy, or the mullah! But things could be a lot worse – you could even end up with the commies!

...not to miss out on the obvious fact that the BB is the most photogenic of the current lot.

If the bholi-bhali Pakistani awaam is deprived of the basic necessities of life and the basic freedoms of life, hey, that is something it has learnt to live without - through a LOT of training!

But by Golly, it shall not be deprived of a good-looking PM filling up its TV screens!

Absolutely not!

Manto
"especially the Muslims of this region while the capital of mostly Hindu and Sikh bourgeoisie would have continued to flow to the stock exchange in Bombay.

In retrospect ... one could hold Jinnah responsible for one major issue: His creation gave people like Muhammed Asadi, who would probably not be more than a havaldar in the United Indian Army, an opportunity to masquerade as "professors" and inundate the world with recycled regurgitated crap in the academic scholarship"

And u have crystal bowl that you can look into
as MAJ scared the muslims 'So jas bache nahi to Ghabar ajayega" he he he

#86

That and seeing a chuberic face on the front page of news paper ( there was not much T.V in '67)was one of the reason to ellect Indira Gandhi intially

In fact, I am reasonably sure the BB can more than hold her own in any “head to head” competition with any of these regional leaders:

Pratibha Patil
Rabri Devi
Sheikh Hasina
Khaleda Zia

Not to forget..

Manmohan Singh

#87 tolkinin

I have not read much of the intriguing miaN Masadi, but he is entitled to his viewpoints - as long as (unlike many others who are wishy-washy on the subject) he does not advocate violence! The academic world the world over is famous for harboring all types of view points which would have a tough time being sheltered in the "real" world.