Ramadan Special: Tales of Sufi Wisdom

chaltahai, I guess you are right.

There is a little bit of a discussion on Uplugged, on ts sahib's thread, that may also be, partly, relevant.

Oh and Kaal, hindus or others don't like sufis because they are afraid of islam or want to change islam or need islam 101. They like it because Sufis represent Islam in the best light. The representation of your authentic Islam is evident all the way from philippines to the US. Where ever there is a sizeable minorty of authentic muslims, there is conflict. Such ideology doesn't seem very practical at all, regardless of your hopeful wishes.

Funny stuff Hamid :-)

Kaal, tell me why sufism isn't an improvement over your version of authentic Islam. In the meantime I will stick to my theory of change as the constant and change happening at the fringes of every idealogy until the fringe becomes as relevant as the core ideology. This happens because the fringe comes into contact with what is around us. the core, while foolishly holding on to tenets and mandates, fights aimlessly to preserve itself but loses in the end as the tenets can't handle the change.

take tahmed below..if he was walking around in saudi and said, what he wrote the religious police would make him kneel and bob right on the street during jumma. this is the insecurity of the core or authentic islam as you put it. It is not an endearing trait, it is the exact opposite. While tahmed might be a perfectly good muslim, i.e. being born into islam, sees things from a muslim p.o.v. Loves the egality promoted by islam. May even ccondone jihad against the dirty hindoos...but he also likes to watch brittney spears videos, he has a beer once in a while, can lipsynch "Voh Krishna hai"...and that puts him on the fringe. The funny thing is that the fringe is a lot bigger in Islam than the core, you want to hark back to. :-) Damn that Brittney

hamidm: thinkingstorm and kaalchakra are the reformers of their respective religions. I am merely their loyal chamcha. :-)

I have said before, and will repeat - rituals (namaz, roza, haj) as a way of cleansing sins and/or getting "sawab" in fact contribute to moral depravation in Pakistan, rather than promote piety!! e.g., bribery rates at karachi port increase after jumma prayers (since, or so the theory goes, the calculation is that post-jumma sins will stick for a full week, while pre-jumma sins are quickly washed away). Similarly, I have seen the most morally depraved individuals run off to "cleanse their sins" doing haj in air-conditioned comfort. And good-for-nothing maulvis who would never dream of doing anything constructive (like cleaning the streets in the neighborhood) merely add to the noise pollution with their loudspeakers.

However, rituals as a way to promote personal happiness through appreciation for what one has and through self-descipline , as opposed to the myth that they wash away sins etc. can be very good for you (as millions of meditators, yoga practitioners, e.g. will attest). You could spend your life eating and drinking like a character out of a mike moore movie, and cribbing about what you dont have and ignoring what you do, or you can do the opposite (with or without the help of rituals). But from the point of view of religion, I agree that rituals are insignificant, and intentions and deeds are what really count. God does not need rituals, and many rituals are in fact of no use even to man. But some rituals can help you as an individual lead a happier life.

tahmed and thinkingstorm,

..... if you guys are so interested in reforming islam and making it a normal religion instead of a bloody ideology that is bent on destroying the world, why don't you start by putting an end to the silliness of praying five times a day and this ritual starvation period which is causing me a lot of personal hardship ....... i have always maintained that namaz is the source of all evil and roza is its twin evil .... religion, like sex and food, is a good thing, as long as it is done in some moderation ..... otherwise it can result in blindness and obesity ......

..... and who came up with this uncivilized way of praying anyway?..... alberto gonzales ?........ i would rather be waterboarded than have to squat on my haunches with my ankles painfully twisted under me like a masochistic contortionist while some idiot mumbles in painful arabic ........ i would rather be put in a stress position by lyndie england and her boyfriend and be bombarded with metallica ..... well, you might say that i don't really have to pray ...easier said than done !... during this unholy month mrs hamidm is in a religious frenzy and drags me off to all these iftaar parties where you don't get fed unless you line up with the boys and pray to the moon god ....

.... and what is up with this mandatory starvation for a whole month ? .... why couldn't we be like the more civilized christians and give up something for ramzan - i am perfectly willing to give up the tonic in my gin, or the soda in my whiskey for a day or two ....... better yet, why couldn't we be like our horrible hindoo cousins and make our women starve .... come to think of it, that is one of the few grandpa gopinath traditions that i have managed to keep alive inspite of constant nagging by mrs hamidm who gets caught up in this nonsense every year - it must be the moon .... i really don't mind her subjecting herself to this mindless ritual as long as she keeps it down when she gets up in the morning - the clatter of pots and pans and the wafting aroma of frying eggs wakes me up ..... at my age, a man needs his sleep .....

....... twenty eight more days of hell ..... we shall overcome !

kaalchakra #260: keep those ideas coming, my friend. we all learn from one another. you have a following of not just one (yourself), but of at least two (i.e. myself included).

thinkingstorm #261: you wrote I liked his (malcolm x's) fiery speeches before he went for hajj.

I liked the change in malcolm x after the hajj when he saw for the first time what would be considered racial diversity in mecca, and split with the black "muslims" by taking race-based thinking out of his religion. As he said, and here the youtube with malcolm x saying that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AojtR9qMf7U

As x says in the youtube video above, he saw people who would be considered white in america but who saw themselves as just human beings.

This to me represents the finest in muslim culture - egalitarianism. When rich and poor, people of all colors, come together as equals.

And it is this egalitariansim that makes Islam anathema to the jayps of India.

I should to add that egalitarianism in Islam continues, it exists alongside the many ills that afflict muslim societies today and make them the most backward of human societies today in many ways (superstitions over rationality of the kind exemplified by naqshbandi, religious fascism, and so on). And it does not come close to he egalitarianism that comes with democracy, as in the US where first generation immigrants from third world countries become successful business owners through hard work. And muslim countries find it much harder to progress beyond their obsolete traditions than truly progressive societies like the US did after the above video was made, when it took a giant step towards national integration as a result of the civil rights act of 1964.

chalta, without commenting on the rest of that post, Sufism does NOT show, by any stretch of one's imagination, that "Islam has an ability to change." Practical Islam has always been quite diverse. The first sufi was born probably the moment Islam became a public doctrine.

We need Islam 101 for Hindus. May be we talk to too many 'Sufis' who won't know Islam if it hit them in their faces.

P.S.: To clarify, one did not mean earlier that Jinnah personally worshipped Vishnu, or ever considered such a thing desirable. Had that really been the case, he would never have disappointed Jayp and promoted TNT. The reference was to something much bigger than Jinnah, and the interesting role of Sufism in it.

I assumed that that history was widely known. If it is not, I will just summarize the argument: Vishnu-worshipping Sufism merely creates Jinnahs (if you don't like them). But Sufism is utterly incapable, in every way (religiously, intellectually, socially), of keeping Jinnahs from turning into real Muslims at an appropriate time.

Sufism is not an alternative to, opposition to, or improvement upon actual Islam in any form at all. Please don't let any ignorant or deceptive sufi convince you otherwise.

And this has nothing to do with things being cut and dried or wet and limp.
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But again, our differences are not large. I think I understand where you are coming from. Just for now, I would like to end this discussion here, with you having the last word, of course. :)

Kaal, hinduism has not become fake Islam but fake as what you deem authentic Islam. BTW, It is much easier for hinduism to become authentic unlike islam..which unfortunately is sullied for ever. Therein lies the rub, bub.

Oh and genuine authentic islam IS all foolishness. And this has nothing to do with hindusim. This authencity or rigidity (probably the right word for the qattribute) you hold as some exalted virtue within Islam is actually the reason for the incompatibity of muslims within the ever changing world. It is similar to your hindu liberal lamentations..the more they resist and hark back to bells and whistles free islam, the more segmented it gets.

Hindus like Sufism because it shows that Islam has an ability to change. Not because it is a threat to some instransient version of islam. Change is the only constant that you can count on..dogma hasn't a chance and seems almost unnatural

Re: # 245 have to agree with you-things have to be cut and dry in a particular way to satisfy our learned friend.

tahmed sahib,

May I be the Malcom X of Islam reformation? I liked his fiery speeches before he went for hajj.

Unlike Usman the pious (Kaal), I do have grand illusions (mashallah).
with much respect,
thinking storm

lol tahmedji, I have a very large following of one, myself. But there is no doubt that armies of martin luther kings will continue to arise. And they might do better at their time and place.

My aim is merely to keep throwing out little ideas into the air. If someone finds any of them interesting, well, good, if not, I have the satisfaction of knowing I did what I did. No great illusions here. :) :)

Kaalchakra #256 You could be the Martin Luther King of the Hindu Reformation. Thinkingstorm could be the Martin Luther King of the Muslim Reformation. Between the two of you, Pope Naqshbandi will be helpless!!

#254 thinkingstorm: May I make a special commendation for Jay Thakeray who has taughte me the true meaning of "Ai Quaid-e-Azam tera ahsaan hai, tera ahsaan!"? ;-)

#253 chaltahai: That was a rhetorical question. So you answer is superfluous.

chalta, chalo, we will continue with this another time. Our differences are not that large. We are just talking past each other a little bit. :)

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ts, assimiliation I don't mind, since I do NOT see real Islam as the Great Unmitigated Evil from which mankind will be saved by the White Knight of Sufism (as almost every other Hindu here seems to be convinced).

I just think this total Hindu misunderstanding about Sufism, Islam, and their mutual relationship itself creates many many social conflicts (not individual conflicts) that could be otherwise avoided. Sufism is a clear roadblock to creating peace, just as ignorant Hindu liberalism is.

We need genuine understanding on both sides. Not wishful silliness or wooliness.

Unfortunately, as I once argued when you were not here, Hinduism has become a religion of blind believers in man-made doctrines. It has become fake "Islam". It has come to consider necessary change as a form of liberal sin. It's men and women believe they have achieved perfection, and genuine authentic Islam is all foolishness.

But it shall yet die, on its own, because it has vanity, but no legs. Anybody willing to spend time actually learning things will see why ancient beliefs that continue to guide liberal Hinduism do not work in changed environment.

We need a new dharma, and by gosh, we shall have it! Not by force but because I have confidence in basic thinking abilities of everyone, Hindus and Muslims and all others.