Ramadan Special: Tales of Sufi Wisdom

Naqsbandi ..nobody can hijack these great aulias great deeds...

our future generations will feel proud over them....for thier great effort for islam...

my article on the miracles of the saints has been hijacked by geopolitics again! Aaagh!!!!

hamid writes "he gave you the opportunity but you just didn't have it in you to make the passing grade .."

The White man gave me the "opportunity" to be his second rate slave and get some crumbs and benefits while bowing to him. I chose the path of independance, where I challenged the elite,that went to Harvard and MIT on their face and walked out victorious- no 6 figure income can ever accomplish that....

As for tahmed, the sob is a hypocrite and when stumped feigns being decent and civilized (while rallying for the Iraq war in which over 1.2 million innocents have been killed according to recent surveys). And Manto, the effing twerp, all he wants is to worship the dead criminal MAJ, who is a total non factor in Pakistan these days except as cultural legitimation for siding with the neo-colonials and the US elite in their "enlightened moderation" and "democracy" even as they butcher people at will and wheel and deal behind the scenes in order to control this land which has become the whore of the West, a disgrace not only to the Muslims but to all free people everywhere.

Dawah-i-dil

begum

we would love to see how much love you have in your heart for an idolator??

Re: # 277

masadi,

..... tahmed and manto are gentlemen and too polite to put you where you belong ..... so, let me remind you that you are a miserable fool and a nincompoop full of poop ...... you are a failure who couldn't make it in the great land of opportunity where my sprinkler guy's son has made it to the harvard business school and where you had to subsist on government cheese and community college wages ........ don't take it out on the white man - he gave you the opportunity but you just didn't have it in you to make the passing grade ......... shame on you !

thanks, mantolives, for your words of support. It is indeed true that strong language is no substitute for weak arguments.

Tahmed,

Masadi resorts to such language because he can't win arguments through logic. It is only natural that the frustrated professor resorts to what he knows best.

I think it is all Jinnah's fault really... had he not made Pakistan... Masadi would be a mere hawaldar in some far flung army unit during la ree la(left right left).

masadi #277

you call me a "miserable fool" - you are entitled to your opinion.

you call me a "damn criminal". Expressing one's opinion does not make one a criminal. Except in a dictatorship.

you use the above abusive language because you dont agree with my statement that the 1964 civil rights act was a giant step forward in race relations. I dont argue with abusive posters - and so wont waste time with you except to say that you are entitled to your views.

No I am just not convinced of that entire line of argument...

Re: # 273

Now you are being smart after the fact; which is something that everybody can do.

tahmed writes "And muslim countries find it much harder to progress beyond their obsolete traditions than truly progressive societies like the US did after the above video was made, when it took a giant step towards national integration as a result of the civil rights act of 1964."

This miserable fool, how he never misses an opportunity to say the hamd o naat of his objects of worship the US system and its elite. No "giant step" was taken in 1964, the civil rights efforts were coopted and its major figures killed by deceit and we see what happened thereafter, till today we see over a third of young African American youth incarcerated, having several times the likelihood of being lynched- executed by this white Criminal Justice System, having unemployment double that of whites, poverty almost double that of whites, life expectancy much less than whites and job segregation that segregates them in low paying janitorial jobs, as well as housing segregation that is of the highest percent anywhere in the developed world. What great steps please explain, and no first generation immigrants if they happen to be of color can compete at par with the whites this is just part of the "great american celebration" mythology. And to add to that what this damn criminal tahmed does is he blames the blacks for race based politics when they are vicitims of racism, he is in fact blaming the victims for the crimes of the ruling white elite who have set a system that allocates life chances based on skin color. Not only that he then has the audacity to blame dependant countries, underdeveloped countries of not progressing because they have such exclusionary traditions- no tradition can equal how the white race, its elite have oppressed the colored folk all over the world both during colonization (which this miserable immoral fool supports) and thereafter......Beware of such enemies of the people

"Ironic isn't it that the sufis almost completely supported the Pakistan Movement"

manto, I am so very glad you said that. There are so many things one simply does not say (clearly) lest too many people have their cherished illusions borken into a million pieces all at the same time.

"... while those with the straitjacket view of Islam stood against Pakistan Movement abusing Jinnah as Kafir"

Re: # 236

Jayp

"The problem comes only when the book is said to contain all the truths and other religious people are to be killed."

Ironic isn't it that the sufis almost completely supported the Pakistan Movement ... while those with the straitjacket view of Islam stood against Jinnah abusing him as Kafir. Your pathetic understanding of history has so many holes in it that it looks like swiss cheese.

I'd say little knowledge is dangerous and you are the most dangerous of those who possess little knowledge.


Achyuth Patwardhan, one of the Socialist stalwarts in the Congress, has given a remarkably candid and self critical analysis of the Congress Party vis-a-vis Khilafat: 'It is, however, useful to recognise our share of this error of misdirection. To begin with, I am convinced that looking back upon the course of development of the freedom movement, THE 'HIMALAYAN ERROR' of Gandhiji's leadership was the support he extended on behalf of the Congress and the Indian people to the Khilafat Movement at the end of the World War I. This has proved to be a disastrous error which has brought in its wake a series of harmful consequences. On merits, it was a thoroughly reactionary step. The Khilafat was totally unworthy of support of the Progressive Muslims. Kemel Pasha established this solid fact by abolition of the Khilafat. The abolition of the Khilafat was widely welcomed by enlightened Muslim opinion the world over and Kemel was an undoubted hero of all young Muslims straining against Imperialist domination. But apart from the fact that Khilafat was an unworthy reactionary cause, Mahatma Gandhi had to align himself with a sectarian revivalist Muslim Leadership of clerics and maulvis. He was thus unwittingly responsible for jettisoning sane, secular, modernist leadership among the Muslims of India and foisting upon the Indian Muslims a theocratic orthodoxy of the Maulvis. Maulana Mohammed Ali's speeches read today appear strangely incoherent and out of tune with the spirit of secular political freedom. The Congress Movement which released the forces of religious liberalism and reform among the Hindus, and evoked a rational scientific outlook, placed the Muslims of India under the spell of orthodoxy and religious superstition by their support to the Khilafat leadership. Rationalist leaders like Jinnah were rebuffed by this attitude of Congress and Gandhi. This is the background of the psychological rift between Congress and the Muslim League'.

and

'Since the Khilafat agitation, things have changed and it has been one of the many injuries inflicted on India by the encouragement of the Khilafat crusade, that the inner Muslim feeling of hatred against 'unbelievers' has sprung up, naked and unashamed, as in years gone by'.

and

A terrible and gruesome fallout of the disastrous Khilafat experiment of Mahatma Gandhi was the Moplah Rebellion in Malabar District in 1921. According to the Report of the ENQUIRY COMMITTEE OF SERVANTS OF INDIA SOCIETY, the number of Hindus murdered by Moplah Muslims was 1500, the number of Hindus forcibly converted 20,000 and the value of property looted about Rs three crore. When the national and local leaders appealed to the virulently anti-Hindu Moplah Muslims in the name of Mahatma Gandhi to follow the ways of peace and non-violence, they replied bluntly with Islamic fervour: 'GANDHI IS A KAFIR, HOW CAN HE BE OUR LEADER?' Dr Anne Besant declared: 'The Moplah Muslim marauders murdered and plundered abundantly, killed or drove away all Hindus who would not apostatize. Somewhere about 100,000 people were driven from their homes with nothing but the clothes they had on, stripped of everything'. She also accused all the Khilafat religious preachers for all this terrible atrocities. J Campbell, chief of the Intelligence Department, Government of India, held the Khilafat leaders squarely responsible for inciting racial hatred resulting in Moplah carnage.

http://www.newstodaynet.com/2006sud/06aug/2208ss1.htm

Mahatma Gandhi's attempt to harness the feeling for the cause of national independence backfired and led to the uprising in Kerala known as the Moplah Rebellion. It took the British several months to put it down at the cost of thousands of lives.



Moplahs were very much part of the grand Khilafat Movement that Gandhi was spearheading and Gandhi kept apologising for them


The Dravidian Moplahs had directed their revolt with class venom against some Aryan high-caste Hindus with property as well as Britishers: Brahmanical elements tried to use that to spark a crisis in Hindu-Muslim relations all over India. Gandhi tried to hold a balance: like the U.S. press and the Negro nationalists who read it he stressed that the Moplah uprising could be made part of a united drive for independence by Indians of all sects.But he was also aware of the pan-Islamic dimension: in a December 1921 call to the British to suspend their attacks against the Moplahs, he was to observe that the Moplahs saw themselves as fighting for a religion with methods they considered religious: Yogesh Chadha, Rediscovering Gandhi (London: Century 1997) p. 254.


And lets not forget the Tehreek-e-Hijrat Fatwa that Gandhi's right hand man Azad gave to Muslims which gave Muslims two options "JEHAD" or "HIJRAT".

The Muslim Ulema, thinkers and activists called for the boycott of foreign goods and non-cooperation with the British government. Meetings were organised in order to rally the masses to support these issues. The meetings were organised under the banner of Mo’tamar al-Ansar (The Workers Conference) and various newspapers such as Al-Hilal of Maualana Abul Kalam Azad and The Comrade of Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar. Both Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad and Maulana Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar were put behind bars for publishing anti-British articles in their newspapers. The latter spent four years in prison between 1911 and 1915CE.


The allegiance of the Muslim intelligentsia of India at that to the Khilafah is unquestionable. Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad summed up their view when he wrote in his newspaper al-Hilal on 6th November 1912 that the Ottoman Sultans possessed the only sword which Muslims had for their protection. Insofar as the “caliphate was essentially a religious integration of the shari’a”, it became “necessary by revelation, is of God’s institution and that obedience to its authority is farz, or positively commanded”.


The Khilafat Movement


In September 1919, Maulana Muhammad Ali and his brother Shaukat Ali, together with Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad, Dr. Mukhtar Ahmed Ansari, and Hasrat Mohani, started a new organization, the Khilafat Movement (1919-1924). Their avowed aim was to use whatever leverage they had to protect the Khilafah. They organized Khilafat Conferences in several northern Indian cities. It is noticeable that the scholars and activists that were part of the Khilafat movement came from different schools of thought and backgrounds, for example Maulana Abul Kalam Azad was known to be a ‘ghayr taqleedi’ (non-taqleedi – who believed Taqleed to Mazahib is prohibited) and Maulana Mahmood Hasan was Deobandi who are followers of the Hanafi Mazhab yet they were united in the objective of working for the maintenance of the Khilafah.


In 1919, the Bombay Khilafat Committee agreed on two important organisational goals: “first, to urge the retention of the temporal powers of the Sultan of Turkey as Caliph, and second to ensure his continued suzerainty over the Islamic holy places.”

Delivering the presidential address at the Calcutta meeting of the Bengal Provincial Khilafat Conference in 1920, Maulana Azad discussed the importance of Khilafah he declared, “the purpose of this institution was to organise and lead the Muslim community in the right path, to establish justice, to bring about peace, and to spread God’s word in the world. For all this it was absolutely necessary for the caliph to possess temporal power”. Maulana Azad had no doubt that “without an Imam, their lives were un-Islamic and that they would be damned after death”.


Maulana Azad published a book in 1920 called Masla-e-Khilafat (The Issue of Khilafah), he stated: “Without the Khilafah the existence of Islam is not possible, the Muslims of India with all their effort and power need to work for this”.

In the same book page 176 Maulana Azad said, “There are two types of ahkam shariah, the first is related to the individual like the commands and prohibitions, the fara’id (obligations) and wajibat in order to perfect oneself. The second is not related to the individual but is related to the Ummah, nation, collective obligations and state politics like the conquering of lands, political and economic laws”.

According to Peter Hardy, Maulana Azad believed that, “The Muslim who would separate religion and politics for Muslims is an apostate who works silently”.


The loss of political power in India and the threat posed by a combination of forces to the temporal authority of the caliph, was so worrisome for the leaders of the Muslim community that some of them felt compelled to issue fatwas ‘in favour of migration (hijra)’ from India.


Maulana Abul Kalam Azad issued a fatwa which was published in the daily Ahl-e-Hadith of Amritsar on 30 July 1920. In his fatwa he urged Hijrat from India as an alternative to non-cooperation with the British. (YLH's note: Was the Hijaz Born Azad a "Wahabi"... note "Ahle-Hadith)

Maulana Abdul Bari’s fatwa said, “every Muslim residing here should adopt non-cooperation but if (that is) impossible, should proceed for hijrat”. Maulana Shaukat Ali issued a statement on behalf of the Central Khilafat Committee, “expressing the hope that all dedicated Muslims would stay in India and work for the non-cooperation. Only if it did not succeed would they consider resorting to hijrat”. The impact of the fatwa was electrifying and thousands of Muslims preferred to leave the Dar al harb of India where their religious rights symbolized in the position of the Turkish Caliph was being infringed.


And most amazing was the fact that Gandhi's encouragement led to Deobandi ulema creating the Jamiat ulema Hind ... which in its numerous forms and heads plagues South Asia even today... and all these groups are spin offs of the same.


All this came about before Two Nation Theory and Jinnah's conversion to Muslim separatism. Give credit where its due... or are you so shameless as to continue to deny the facts?

Re: # 229

So in other words the Pir was proving the dishonesty of an imposter nabi by bluffing like crazy?

Now while I can appreciate your argument on a secular level even though I still don't see how it would constitute Mirza's assent to such obnoxious standard of evidence... On a religious level this whole bluffing business becomes very suspect.

#270

Chalta "The representation of your authentic Islam is evident all the way from philippines to the US. Where ever there is a sizable minority of authentic muslims, there is conflict. Such ideology doesn't seem very practical at all, regardless of your hopeful wishes."

How many of Islamic people By and large much much larger no Muslims ( majority misrepresented by you}are content just as many a Hindus.The fact Hindus did not spread out side Indian Peninsula b/C Himalayas ..The three sides water and before that British Mastered Navigation to explain Why Hindus could not venture outside .Its not some esoteric voluntary decision but geographical limitation.

Much lager number of Muslims from One End of The World To other are living just as peacefully as Indians .If few Philines are added to Southern Thai few And even Palestinians and Alkieda the leaves vast number of Muslims far outnumber the nonpeacful but so are Naxal ,LTTE ,Bodo are not represntative of larger Indians.The afghanistan & iraq is differernt case all together for obvious reason

chaltahai, I guess you are right.

There is a little bit of a discussion on Uplugged, on ts sahib's thread, that may also be, partly, relevant.

Oh and Kaal, hindus or others don't like sufis because they are afraid of islam or want to change islam or need islam 101. They like it because Sufis represent Islam in the best light. The representation of your authentic Islam is evident all the way from philippines to the US. Where ever there is a sizeable minorty of authentic muslims, there is conflict. Such ideology doesn't seem very practical at all, regardless of your hopeful wishes.

Funny stuff Hamid :-)

Kaal, tell me why sufism isn't an improvement over your version of authentic Islam. In the meantime I will stick to my theory of change as the constant and change happening at the fringes of every idealogy until the fringe becomes as relevant as the core ideology. This happens because the fringe comes into contact with what is around us. the core, while foolishly holding on to tenets and mandates, fights aimlessly to preserve itself but loses in the end as the tenets can't handle the change.

take tahmed below..if he was walking around in saudi and said, what he wrote the religious police would make him kneel and bob right on the street during jumma. this is the insecurity of the core or authentic islam as you put it. It is not an endearing trait, it is the exact opposite. While tahmed might be a perfectly good muslim, i.e. being born into islam, sees things from a muslim p.o.v. Loves the egality promoted by islam. May even ccondone jihad against the dirty hindoos...but he also likes to watch brittney spears videos, he has a beer once in a while, can lipsynch "Voh Krishna hai"...and that puts him on the fringe. The funny thing is that the fringe is a lot bigger in Islam than the core, you want to hark back to. :-) Damn that Brittney

hamidm: thinkingstorm and kaalchakra are the reformers of their respective religions. I am merely their loyal chamcha. :-)

I have said before, and will repeat - rituals (namaz, roza, haj) as a way of cleansing sins and/or getting "sawab" in fact contribute to moral depravation in Pakistan, rather than promote piety!! e.g., bribery rates at karachi port increase after jumma prayers (since, or so the theory goes, the calculation is that post-jumma sins will stick for a full week, while pre-jumma sins are quickly washed away). Similarly, I have seen the most morally depraved individuals run off to "cleanse their sins" doing haj in air-conditioned comfort. And good-for-nothing maulvis who would never dream of doing anything constructive (like cleaning the streets in the neighborhood) merely add to the noise pollution with their loudspeakers.

However, rituals as a way to promote personal happiness through appreciation for what one has and through self-descipline , as opposed to the myth that they wash away sins etc. can be very good for you (as millions of meditators, yoga practitioners, e.g. will attest). You could spend your life eating and drinking like a character out of a mike moore movie, and cribbing about what you dont have and ignoring what you do, or you can do the opposite (with or without the help of rituals). But from the point of view of religion, I agree that rituals are insignificant, and intentions and deeds are what really count. God does not need rituals, and many rituals are in fact of no use even to man. But some rituals can help you as an individual lead a happier life.

tahmed and thinkingstorm,

..... if you guys are so interested in reforming islam and making it a normal religion instead of a bloody ideology that is bent on destroying the world, why don't you start by putting an end to the silliness of praying five times a day and this ritual starvation period which is causing me a lot of personal hardship ....... i have always maintained that namaz is the source of all evil and roza is its twin evil .... religion, like sex and food, is a good thing, as long as it is done in some moderation ..... otherwise it can result in blindness and obesity ......

..... and who came up with this uncivilized way of praying anyway?..... alberto gonzales ?........ i would rather be waterboarded than have to squat on my haunches with my ankles painfully twisted under me like a masochistic contortionist while some idiot mumbles in painful arabic ........ i would rather be put in a stress position by lyndie england and her boyfriend and be bombarded with metallica ..... well, you might say that i don't really have to pray ...easier said than done !... during this unholy month mrs hamidm is in a religious frenzy and drags me off to all these iftaar parties where you don't get fed unless you line up with the boys and pray to the moon god ....

.... and what is up with this mandatory starvation for a whole month ? .... why couldn't we be like the more civilized christians and give up something for ramzan - i am perfectly willing to give up the tonic in my gin, or the soda in my whiskey for a day or two ....... better yet, why couldn't we be like our horrible hindoo cousins and make our women starve .... come to think of it, that is one of the few grandpa gopinath traditions that i have managed to keep alive inspite of constant nagging by mrs hamidm who gets caught up in this nonsense every year - it must be the moon .... i really don't mind her subjecting herself to this mindless ritual as long as she keeps it down when she gets up in the morning - the clatter of pots and pans and the wafting aroma of frying eggs wakes me up ..... at my age, a man needs his sleep .....

....... twenty eight more days of hell ..... we shall overcome !

kaalchakra #260: keep those ideas coming, my friend. we all learn from one another. you have a following of not just one (yourself), but of at least two (i.e. myself included).

thinkingstorm #261: you wrote I liked his (malcolm x's) fiery speeches before he went for hajj.

I liked the change in malcolm x after the hajj when he saw for the first time what would be considered racial diversity in mecca, and split with the black "muslims" by taking race-based thinking out of his religion. As he said, and here the youtube with malcolm x saying that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AojtR9qMf7U

As x says in the youtube video above, he saw people who would be considered white in america but who saw themselves as just human beings.

This to me represents the finest in muslim culture - egalitarianism. When rich and poor, people of all colors, come together as equals.

And it is this egalitariansim that makes Islam anathema to the jayps of India.

I should to add that egalitarianism in Islam continues, it exists alongside the many ills that afflict muslim societies today and make them the most backward of human societies today in many ways (superstitions over rationality of the kind exemplified by naqshbandi, religious fascism, and so on). And it does not come close to he egalitarianism that comes with democracy, as in the US where first generation immigrants from third world countries become successful business owners through hard work. And muslim countries find it much harder to progress beyond their obsolete traditions than truly progressive societies like the US did after the above video was made, when it took a giant step towards national integration as a result of the civil rights act of 1964.

chalta, without commenting on the rest of that post, Sufism does NOT show, by any stretch of one's imagination, that "Islam has an ability to change." Practical Islam has always been quite diverse. The first sufi was born probably the moment Islam became a public doctrine.

We need Islam 101 for Hindus. May be we talk to too many 'Sufis' who won't know Islam if it hit them in their faces.

P.S.: To clarify, one did not mean earlier that Jinnah personally worshipped Vishnu, or ever considered such a thing desirable. Had that really been the case, he would never have disappointed Jayp and promoted TNT. The reference was to something much bigger than Jinnah, and the interesting role of Sufism in it.

I assumed that that history was widely known. If it is not, I will just summarize the argument: Vishnu-worshipping Sufism merely creates Jinnahs (if you don't like them). But Sufism is utterly incapable, in every way (religiously, intellectually, socially), of keeping Jinnahs from turning into real Muslims at an appropriate time.

Sufism is not an alternative to, opposition to, or improvement upon actual Islam in any form at all. Please don't let any ignorant or deceptive sufi convince you otherwise.

And this has nothing to do with things being cut and dried or wet and limp.
-------------

But again, our differences are not large. I think I understand where you are coming from. Just for now, I would like to end this discussion here, with you having the last word, of course. :)

Kaal, hinduism has not become fake Islam but fake as what you deem authentic Islam. BTW, It is much easier for hinduism to become authentic unlike islam..which unfortunately is sullied for ever. Therein lies the rub, bub.

Oh and genuine authentic islam IS all foolishness. And this has nothing to do with hindusim. This authencity or rigidity (probably the right word for the qattribute) you hold as some exalted virtue within Islam is actually the reason for the incompatibity of muslims within the ever changing world. It is similar to your hindu liberal lamentations..the more they resist and hark back to bells and whistles free islam, the more segmented it gets.

Hindus like Sufism because it shows that Islam has an ability to change. Not because it is a threat to some instransient version of islam. Change is the only constant that you can count on..dogma hasn't a chance and seems almost unnatural

Re: # 245 have to agree with you-things have to be cut and dry in a particular way to satisfy our learned friend.

tahmed sahib,

May I be the Malcom X of Islam reformation? I liked his fiery speeches before he went for hajj.

Unlike Usman the pious (Kaal), I do have grand illusions (mashallah).
with much respect,
thinking storm

lol tahmedji, I have a very large following of one, myself. But there is no doubt that armies of martin luther kings will continue to arise. And they might do better at their time and place.

My aim is merely to keep throwing out little ideas into the air. If someone finds any of them interesting, well, good, if not, I have the satisfaction of knowing I did what I did. No great illusions here. :) :)

Kaalchakra #256 You could be the Martin Luther King of the Hindu Reformation. Thinkingstorm could be the Martin Luther King of the Muslim Reformation. Between the two of you, Pope Naqshbandi will be helpless!!

#254 thinkingstorm: May I make a special commendation for Jay Thakeray who has taughte me the true meaning of "Ai Quaid-e-Azam tera ahsaan hai, tera ahsaan!"? ;-)

#253 chaltahai: That was a rhetorical question. So you answer is superfluous.

chalta, chalo, we will continue with this another time. Our differences are not that large. We are just talking past each other a little bit. :)

---------------------------

ts, assimiliation I don't mind, since I do NOT see real Islam as the Great Unmitigated Evil from which mankind will be saved by the White Knight of Sufism (as almost every other Hindu here seems to be convinced).

I just think this total Hindu misunderstanding about Sufism, Islam, and their mutual relationship itself creates many many social conflicts (not individual conflicts) that could be otherwise avoided. Sufism is a clear roadblock to creating peace, just as ignorant Hindu liberalism is.

We need genuine understanding on both sides. Not wishful silliness or wooliness.

Unfortunately, as I once argued when you were not here, Hinduism has become a religion of blind believers in man-made doctrines. It has become fake "Islam". It has come to consider necessary change as a form of liberal sin. It's men and women believe they have achieved perfection, and genuine authentic Islam is all foolishness.

But it shall yet die, on its own, because it has vanity, but no legs. Anybody willing to spend time actually learning things will see why ancient beliefs that continue to guide liberal Hinduism do not work in changed environment.

We need a new dharma, and by gosh, we shall have it! Not by force but because I have confidence in basic thinking abilities of everyone, Hindus and Muslims and all others.

Dear Dawa-i-dil,

I am feeling particularly gunahgaar today,can you please share with us your opinion on whether Shai are muslim or kafir? I have heard that when they pray, before the final salaam, they hold each other's hand and start dancing to the tune of "Ali ali ali ali kar"??

Please post a comment, or 80, to let me know what you think....

.
with much respect,
thinking storm

chalta,

I am making a list of people to commend for thier extraordinary service to Pakistan, the land of the pure. Names like Arjun2, Sadna, and Jang are already on this list for thier unwavering and unrelenting biased focus on all matters Pakistani. We Pakistanis can only become better with encouragment from this group.

- Arjun has been awarded the nishan-e-suragh
- Jang has been awarded the nishan-e-suraakh (so no-one is confused)
- Sadna bibi is currently going through the second round of deliberation by the awards committee.
- And you my good man, have made it into my good graces and I am fast tracking your nomination. You may in fact be awarded a nishan before Sadna..

Carry on.
with much respect,
thinking storm

Tahmed, I like lowly pakis man..especially you...what do you have against lowly pakis?.

Kaal (disregard 249, I am not drunk..I promise) , sufism like ahmedism doesn't strive in pakiland not because hindus can't live with islam..but because muslims deem them outside the fold of their religion. It is this insecurity within Islam that makes educated, logical and most sensible people draft legal mandates to declare ahmedis non-muslims in a man-made constitution. (how ridiculous is that?) Sorry..no hindu has anything to with this. It is an entirely islamic phenomenon. There is no authentic islam btw. There is no authentic religion..because it there was, it would be gone forever..faith cannot stand the strains of time..like you..it tries to retrofit the surroundings (which are constantly changing..into neat little boxes to make sense of them per the boundaries laid out thousands of years ago. Silly..ain't it. :-)

chaltahai: and what is a man-about-town like you doing wasting time with lowly pakis on the internet on a saturday night??

it's saturday night
and i aint got nobody
:-(

chaltahai: still having trouble saying the word "Pakistan". 60 years is long enough. get used to the idea. resistance is futile, as thinking storm says.

Kaal, sufism like ahmedism doesn't strive in pakiland because hindus can't live with islam..but because muslims (those who deem things outside of their things as islamic or non-islam) deem them outside the fold of their religion. It is this insecurity within Islam that makes educated, logical and almost sensible people draft legal mandates to declare ahmedis non-muslims in a man-made constitution. What more can be more ridiculous than this? Sorry..no hindu has anything to with this. It is an entirely islamic phenomenon. There is no authentic islam btw. There is no authentic religion..because it there was it would be gone forever..faith cannot stand the strains of time..like you..it tries to retrofit the surroundings (which are constantly changing..into neat little boxes to make sense of them per the boundaries laid out thousands of years ago. Silly..ain't it. :-)

chalta-

listen to Kaal, he is trying to save you from assimilation .

But remember, resistance is futile :)
with much respect,
thinking storm

Naqshbandi #235 you write "the way to Paradise is the prophet".

This is too vague, and can be construed in a number of ways:

If you mean "follow the message conveyed to the prophet", then you need to explain how sufism (concerned with the spiritual world) has any relevance to the message of Islam (which is concerned with human actions in this world).

If you mean "do as the prophet did", then you are contradicting yourself given your message of following other men (i.e. sufis) while the prophet did not follow any sufi.

But dont let these little details come in the way of your spiritual quest.... :-)

chaltahai, what you wrote in # 243 would be very true, but only if sufism had real power and depth, or real conviction, to challenge real, authentic Islam. Then it could change Islam, if that were desirable.

It has none of those things. Think about it. Few educated Muslims stay with Sufism for long. Like Ahmedism, Sufism thrives mostly in non-Islamic societies. And in those countries, sufism does nothing but promote misunderstanding.

Why shouldn't Muslims and non-Muslims develop a genuine understanding of each other, and create ways to live together?

Kaal, it is funny..you like to circumsccribe people and beliefs into neat little boxes to retrofit your thinking. very Islamic trait, if you ask me. (pun intended) :-)

No, ts, it is important that jayp and chalta understand a key point. Of course, I don't mean that Jinnah was anything less than a good Muslim. He was. That is why that post is NOT addressed to any Pakistani admirer of Jinnah. ONLY to Hindu admirers of sufism, who believe, totally mistakenly, that somehow sufism is "good" and Islam is not.

That is a false notion that leaves Hindus unprepared to live with Islam, sufism or not.

kaal, even if jinnah was a Vishu worshipper that still doesn't take away from the negatives of religion. Moreso Islam..what is your point? It is entirely disingeunous to suggest that his love for Vishnu drove the TNT..I would say that it was his love for allah that did it. Now what?

To form beliefs diluting dogma is not disingenous nor is authenticity some virtuous attribute, especially if it precludes evolution and amalgamation of ideas.

Usman (Kaalchakra),

Your slyness is effecting your piousness.
with much respect,
thinking storm

oops, that should be, Pakistanis, please ignore # 239!

ts and other Pakistanis, please ignore # 238. I am just trying to explain to my Hindu friends that inauthenticity and dishonesty does not help, even if it is meant to promote 'brotherhood.' It does not work over the long haul.

Jayp and chaltahai, I had decided to not raise this here, but it might help. Hopefully it will not be misunderstood.

Do you know that Jinnah, the skilled promoter of TNT that Jayp does not much appreciate, and which is as far from zen doctrins as any idea can possibly be, was a follower/worshipper of Vishnu?

Yes, the same Hindu God Vishnu, that you and I know about?

Naqsh,

Thanks for your referrals, but I no longer believe in sufism. Thanks to you.

Notice that I am not full of praise for you and asking Allah to douse you with perfume either.

Your loss buddy. Could have had a really cool student to proliferate your views. I was even willing to be brainwashed and become gentleMindlessBreeze instead of ThinkingStorm.

Oh well.

To each his own.
with much respect,
thinking storm

Re: # 6
I remember Sabah Khaleeli who was a model.Their mother married a Hinjoooo conman who killed her and buried her in the garden.Anyone else remember?

Kaal,

I have read a few of sufi stories, teh equivalents of Koan in zen budhism. The point is that sufis are enlightened men, and to that extend I do not think that they distinguish between religions. The problem comes only when the book is said to contain all the truths and other religious people are to be killed. In modern times this view of islam is the created by jinnah with his TNT and that is why pakistan is the centre of terrorists. The sufis did not and were not the interpreters of teh book, at least jihad as we know it, which is a pure pak creation. The taliban is essentially the TNT notion expanded in a global sense, and that is why the budha statues that survived the gaznis and lodhis are being destroyed in pakistan.

In conclusion, sufis predate pakistan and should be kosher, not halal.

the way to paradise is the Prophet. There is no other way.

Ba Khuda khuda ka yehi hai dar, nahin aur koii mafar maqar//
Jo wahan ka ho tau yehen aakar ho, jo yahan nahin tau wahan nahin!

Kaal writes:"masadi, as far as I can see, sufism is not much more than people worship, as you mentioned. It is about creating excessive, maudlin "LOVE" for "exalted" individuals (not any principles, independent of Islam or Hinduism) so people can be influenced in given ways, and their desire to question is simply eradicated.

Since most people on earth tend to respect others for various reasons, they become unwitting victims."

I find this concept of sufism or the view of kaal quit funny. By extending the nature of islam and declawing all the nastiness out of the religion, sufis actually make it more palatable to others. The desire to question is actually increased and if it takes "love" for the sufi as great as the love for the god, then it is a good thing. Desire to question is something that religon at its very basis tries to limit or as int he case of islam..completely eradicate. Faith is blind and it is good per islam. How does one question that if you get your mandates from this logic.

Naqshbandi #232: but thinkingstorm is not in pakistan, or europe, or the us. he is on chowk. why dont you be his guide. Show him the way to paradise.

thinkingstorm,

even though you've been mocking me with your false praise i am not worthy of guiding anyone-- i am worried about my own soul.

mujhe yeh fikr hai ke meri inteha kyaa hai!

but if you're serious about finding a sufi teacher i can perhaps recommend someone. it depends on where you are living.

if you're in pakistan i would recommend hazrat qibla abu bilal muhammad ilyaas qadri if karachi.

if you're in europe i would say mawlana shaykh nazim al haqqani al qibrisi naqshbandi.

if you're in india i would say hazrat shaykh al islam muhammad madani miyan ashrafi jilani kichauchavi.

if you're in the USA i'd recommend mawlana shaykh muhammad hisham kabbani al naqshbandi.

if you#re in the middle east i would recommend hazrat shaykh sayyid habib ali al jifri of hadramawt yemen.

of course in each of these places there are many other shuyukh to choose from.

gentle readers,

I must sadly announce that due to neglect by the teacher, I have decided to abandon my quest to have Naqshbandi take me under his wings.

I should be sad, for I pursued this quest for quite some time (2 weeks). However, I have come to see the error of my ways. Naqsh is no wali!

I would also like to take the opportunity to announce my own path: the almost secularist muslim.

I will communicate more to you as God sends me messages on what to do next. Live well my gentle readers.
with much respect,
thinking storm

Re: # 229 Further

and look at the fact that about even today i.e. well after over hundered years of that debate several Muslims on this website alone believe that Pir Sahib actually would have levitated the pen or would have survived a jump from the minaret of badshahi mosque. Such powerful his bluff was.

But don't take me wrong, I do belive in miracles and karamat. As I wrote earlier the ESP phenomenon such as mind over matter and hypnosis to make someone actually belive that he just saw someone jumping from a minaret and then surviving it, is not only possible, but it is a recorded fact. People have made statute of liberty disappear.

Re: # 224 Manto:

You have to go back to Dawa's original post that describes what transpired between Pir Mehr Ali Shah Sahib and Mirza Sahib. Please note that the basic premise for the contest in both cases i.e. writing the best tafseer and doing something incredible was initiated and proposed by Mirza Sahib himself. Pir Sahib only responded to his cahllenge not only in agreement but upped the ante as well. I think it was pretty intense poker on Pir Sahib's part and Mirza sahib just couldn't call his bluff. This is what I call one heck of a debate.

Jayp bhai, you seem to hold that sufism believes in even stuff such as reincarnation, as YOU understand it.

I profoundly disagree. May I please request you to go back and re-read whatever you may have read about sufism's faith in re-incarnation. It SIMPLY CANNOT be identical to yours. Or Sufism will lose all connection to Islam - it's ONLY justification.

If you do undertake that excercise, please share whether you agree with my assessment: Sufism is a purely fraudulent doctrine, thriving on ambiguity, deception, and people's unwillingness to ask necessary questions.

Chances are that a sufi "thinker" who tells you (a Hindu) that he believes in/accepts reincarnation will, as certainly as night comes after day, switch words here and there to deceive you into beliefs that are totally alien to reincarnation (or any other concept) that may be valuable to you.

One suspects you are seeing your familiar Yogis in these sufis. The two have nothing in common except looks and some words that sufis pick up.

-----------------

masadi, as far as I can see, sufism is not much more than people worship, as you mentioned. It is about creating excessive, maudlin "LOVE" for "exalted" individuals (not any principles, independent of Islam or Hinduism) so people can be influenced in given ways, and their desire to question is simply eradicated.

Since most people on earth tend to respect others for various reasons, they become unwitting victims.

my previous post was cut off and "filtered", this is the entire post

Tales are tales of course, a new invention, a kind of people worship by those that tried to "religionize" Islam's rational outlook, invented to literally put the Quran on the backburner or on the top of a piece of furniture reaching to the skies so access to it is near impossible except as sacred item that by its touch (not by the meaning of its content) is supposed to bring safety and blessings. All that in an attempt to hold tradition and custom over enlightenment of the mind and thus bring to naught the entire purpose of the Quran- challenging people's irrational traditions and beliefs and thus freeing their mind of superstition.

As was expected, amidst all this tale mongering we forget the real purpose behind Ramadan:

"O you who believe, fasting is prescribed for you (as a cure), as it was prescribed for those before you so that you might become socially conscious...Ramadan is the month in which was sent down the Quran, as a guidance for humankind and as clear signposts of the guidance and the Criterion" (Quran 2:183-185)

When I was talking to a reporter from the Springfield News Leader about the "exotic" Ramadan tradition in Islam in 1993, I was asked about the tales that were behind this tradition. I was happy to inform the reporter that we fast in Islam because the Quran says it makes us more socially conscious. If you experience hunger and thirst and other deprivation first hand (be it out of choice) you become more responsive to the plight of the tens of millions of others who face such deprivation through no choice of their own, due to the workings of an unjust socio-economic system. The other purpose behind Ramadan fasting is to cleanse your mind of the garbage that a legitimating ideology has spread in a society, through which it perpetuates just such deprivation and that is done through the rationality, reason and the mind-freeing techniques involved in a careful study of the Quran, the "criterion" so to speak....

Tales are tales of course, a new invention, a kind of people worship by those that tried to "religionize" Islam's rational outlook, invented to literally put the Quran on the backburner or on the top of a piece of furniture reaching to the skies so access to it is near impossible except as sacred item that by its touch (not by the meaning of its content) is supposed to bring safety and blessings. All that in an attempt to hold tradition and custom over enlightenment of the mind and thus bring to naught the entire purpose of the Quran- challenging people's irrational traditions and beliefs and thus freeing their mind of superstition.

As was expected, amidst all this tale mongering we forget the real purpose behind Ramadan:

hamidm: By providing the standard line of christian mullahs who seek to define Islam as having roots in - horrors! - polytheism, I see you are inspired by christian mullahs, not from muslim mullahs like urstruly or hindu mullahs like jayp.

Common sense, of course, would tell you that monotheism is such a central aspect of Islam that it doesnt matter if there was a pre-Islamic god of the name allah. Common sense would also tell you that christianity and judaism also have roots in earlier polytheistic traditions.

But dont listen to me, since fresh air is bad for closed minds.

Re: # 84 (and 104)

Dear Urstruly,

I have considered both your posts and the conclusion you are drawing from it and I am afraid I cannot agree with this conclusion.

Where does it follow that Mirza actually agreed to the Pir's line of argument?

Re: # 221

no ... i meant al-lah mian and his daughters lat bibi, manat begum and miss uzza

Re: # 217 nope..its already written on paklinks...so copy from that...

Re: # 219 what moon god......

cheti chand ..you mean ????

hamidm: and what goes of your respected buzurgs if dawa behen puts down 80 posts at the rate of a post a minute?

i should add that ms. dawa is also good enough to explain that the secret of her high speed posting, namely cut-and-paste?

..... dawa seems to be the islamic version of "girls gone wild!" ........... what a looney tune !......... a bride for masadi ? ..... or maybe a cnadidate for zeemax's extended harem ........

........ this ramadhan thing seems to be driving the faithful over the edge ..... may the moon god and his daughters have mercy on us !

#216 Posted by dawa-i-dil,

No you can divide it in Part-1, 2 & so forth in a series of articles ... it would be great !!!

dawa bibi: you are giving us recycled material? :-(

zeemax...its so long taht chowk have to developed special page which can tolearte all this long stuff...

LOL..actually... my speed is 2 pots / hours..all this is already written stuff on different sites by me..just copy pasted it..hehehe

#213 Posted by tahmed32,

The only explanation is that dawa behen has it written and compiled before hand, and posts paras one by one!

C'mon dawa-e-dil ... please post the entire collection as an FP article, because reading post by post breaks the flow !!!

zeemax: if you look at the timestamps, she posted these 80 posts in 1 hour. That makes it more than a post a minute. Truly Dawa behen is the supersonic jet among all us bullock carts on chowk!! Takbeer!!

#210 Posted by tahmed32.

tahmed32, I'm totally mystified how dawa behen can type so fast as to let anyone's post slip in between her prolific own!

#40 Posted by Naqshbandi

Wahabism: that sect of Muslims who follow the teachings of Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahab of Najd, Arabia--an 18th century preacher who was condemned by all the Islamic scholars throughout the world starting with his own brother, Shaykh Sulayman ibn Abd al Wahab. He condemnded largely the previous 1200 years of Islamic learning and scholarship and condemned most Muslims as polytheists and kafirs--except those who followed him of course.

Thanks Naqshbandi for the detailed response. But you missed mentioning if he rejected 1200 years of learning, what did he advocate to be followed instead? That was my question.

Thanks again for further clarification.

dawa-i-dil posts #120 - #201: dawa behen, that is about 80 posts in a row you have written, thus beating your own previous record.

jayp: Insane asylum inmates are meant to be observed and their behavior commented on by others, but they dont start explaining their behavior much less calling it "profane" for anyone to comment on it. So dont start explaining why sacrificing goats can help make planes fly, and dont start calling it "profane".

#203 Posted by jayp,

It was $250,000 apiece. But there's no accounting of the ones which are claimed to have been blown up at Ojhri camp.

Re: # 202
good comment

Re: # 205
Good comment

thankyou asif sahab....

i will mail you..

found this good article ...

http://www.jamatuddawa.org/marsad/jul07/mujjul07/sufiizam.htm

great series of posts dawa sahiba but please say what you want in fewer and longer posts.

i agree with almost everything you've written and about the need for tolerance in the ummah for other points of view but sadly the extremists will not budge. you can quote another 50 of the great scholars but for some we will always be ahl al bida' and 'grave-worshippers' astaghfirullah.

Ya Ghawth al Azam!

p.s. please email me. asifjuk@gmail.com
jazak allahu khayran

Zeemax,

My understanding is that all stingers have been bought back by the yanks for a million dollars a piece.

Kaalchakra, tahmed etc.

The profound topic of sufism, the japanese equivalent of zen budhism, has been degenrated into teh profane, with the talk of the flight of the deboned chicken and napalese aircraft.

The fact is that if a sufi wants a chicken, deboned or otherwise to fly, he can do it. The question is having realised the ultimate truth, will he be interested in the plight or the flight of a chicken, what could be its relevance to the larger issues. It is unlikely that any sufi will do anything as a challenge.

This whole issue of doing what is deemed magical and its link to enlightenment is probably the work of the religious fraudsters and organised religions, like catholisism which needs miracles befor some one is made a saint.

In the budhist and hindu traditions, what the society thinks of is utmost irrelevance to a sage, and it is unlikely that any sufi or a sage will do anything to prove a point to teh society, for what, to earn money, to get recognition!!!!

Now here is a sufi thought for any one. It has been scientifically shown that at the molecular level, 99percent of the human body is not more than 7 years old, that human body is in state of flux of material that earlier belonged to plants animals and inanimates.

In thsi world view, all things remain in that particular for for some time and transforms into something else. That is as long as say for a human, the life force is there, the material flow manifests as human, and vanishes when the "soul" leaves, and may reincarnates as something else.

which they follow...mere words of Bukhari...and neglecting the ASOOL on which 4 greatest fuqhas developed the whole system of Fiqah.....

just reading from Bukhari and quran...and giving fatwa is just kidding......

the 4 imams and thier thousands of students and scholars throughout 1200 yeras cannot be on wrong path...never ever.....

they think...only they are right rest are deviated and "taqleed" is haram...while they themselves do taqleed of ahmed bin hanbal....ibne tamiyya and Albani...etc....

they are not "ONLY" scholars.....the greater work in whole islamic history is done by non-arabs...not these arabs.... and they have no right to "Impose" their version of islam on 85 % majority who love and respect and follow 4 imams....

neither i will blindly follow the Ibne Tamiyya...and Ibne Jauzzia.......



neither i will say that Abu Hanifa is not Imam Azam...Imam Azam was prophet(pbuh)....just a funny point......is there any comparison between a nabi and a ummati !!!!!!


neithet i will say to any person that since you do not do Rafa Yadain and Ameen Biljahar..... so you whole Namaz is wasted ..and also previous all namazs....


neither i will call a woman who do not take the Niqaab of face that she is not observing purda......


neither i will blindly follow the fatawas of Ibne Baaz...although we all respect them..but not blindly......



neither i will issue the kufr fawas on Ashraf Ali Thanvi...Ahmed Raza Khan Brelvi ...and Maulana Maudoodi......(have arbs in 200 years produced such great scholars)


neither i will rank my prophet(pbuh) just as my "Elder Brother".......


neither i will support the "extremist jihadi " version of islam...which by large is bringing destruction is Iraq...and Pakistan also.....



neither i will say to any sect and school of thought that only "Ahle Hadees" are 1 sect ...rest all are 72 sects ..which will go to hell by hadees.....


etc etc .....

neither i will accept that hadees which is considered as true by "ONLY" Albani.......all great muhadiseen are not psycho !!!!

neither ...i have a habbit of calling people deviated...by just difference of opinion.....


neither ...i will ridicule the great sufia of islam...through which the isl;am spreaded in most of the parts......

But i will not stand with those who have a "conservative" and "hard core"

attitude towards 4 greatest faqeehs of 1400 yeras...and thousands of great scholars accepted thier knowledge...greatness...and wisdom..they are not mad..fool...and ignorant.....who has the courage to challenge thier intellect !!!!!

for example...you can oppose the scholar like Syed Maudoodi in 1 issue..10 issues...100 issues......but if someone says he is deviated person ....i think he is the most foolish and deviated himself.......can you challenge his rest of wisdom..intellect and his whole life deeds for islam...how shameful is that on 1 or 2 point difference....one should negate his whole life hard work....

similarly ......in case of 4 greatest faqeeh...you can oppose them in various issues...but if someone says that they are wrong...then he should have his mental check up !!!!!!!

beleive me..i am not saying you or anyother ahle hadees....but just pointing out that this attitude....according to my little knowledge,...against the great fuqhas...and sufis...and prophet(pbuh) is not suitable....

and that anothger reason....saudia ulemas ,most of the time do "Taqleed" of Imam Ahmed Bin Hanbal...or Ibne Jauziyya or Ibne Tammiyya....!!!!!

greatest 4 faqeehs of all times...salif salihoon are not mad...foolish and ignorant....they were best people as they were near the age of prophet(pobuh) as in hadees.....

neither all sufis are deviated as usually quoted by ahl;e hadees scholars....our whole Pakistan and india religion will be in hindus part if there were not these sufis !!!!!!!!

Just fighting the whole life that who do Rafa Yadain and who donot...who say Ameen Biljafhar and who do not........just bring hatred in the society.....

Its not necessary that what Albani considered any hadees false..its actually false...its blind following of l;bani...whyn not people do this research to find which Asnaad are more true and other way round....

yes Bukhari is great book...but everything is not Bukhari...everything is not Bukahari...everything is not Bukhari.....


there are also other books which are of ahadees....Imam Bukhari was also human and definitely there are mistakes in Bukhari..its not quran.....so blindly follow it is also not acceptable.......

its very long debate.....and out of topic....but just saying that "Taqleed" is haram .....Abu Hanifa fiqah is 70 % wrong...people blindly follow him...ridiculing the all sufis but just taking example of one and two sufis....etc etc......


i am sorry to say ...i will never ever rely on these foolish rulings ...i respect saudi ahle hadees and also pakistani ahle hadees scholars ...but thier "extremist" views in certainissues..i never ever accept that...they are not the care-takers of who is wrong and who is right......

but it is totally wrong that by saying ..."only me right" and rest all are wrong..biddati...deviated.......not so far just see the example of Allahukbar .net.......this site even not spare...Maulana Maudoodi...you can differ with him..but plainly saying that you are deviated...who the hell given this power to select who is deviated and who is not....what "hardcore" version of islam they are spreading.......

The world greatest salafi/ahle hadees site (islam-qa) clearly writes about the virtues and merits of 4 great imams but only says that do not follow them "blindly"....... as in quran that if you do not know something , ask from a person who knows it... so following any imam is the same thing... regarding the differences between 4 imams or hanafi or salafi schools of thought ... they are of .000000001significance ... rather i say no significance ... all have the same sources that is quran and hadees (6 and more books) and all the differences will be how you interprete , "istadlal" , "isthakrag" means "Deduction" from these sources ... which can be different or vary from imam to imam or from salafis ... but the "Frame of Reference" will always be same right from beginning to the qiyyamah , inshallah...They all have the the differences in the same ci