Ramadan Special: Tales of Sufi Wisdom
Asif Naqshbandi September 12, 2007
#287 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 19, 2007 4:38:40 am
Naqsbandi ..nobody can hijack these great aulias great deeds...
our future generations will feel proud over them....for thier great effort for islam...
our future generations will feel proud over them....for thier great effort for islam...
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#286 Posted by Naqshbandi on September 17, 2007 9:24:07 am
my article on the miracles of the saints has been hijacked by geopolitics again! Aaagh!!!!
#285 Posted by masadi on September 17, 2007 3:07:31 am
hamid writes "he gave you the opportunity but you just didn't have it in you to make the passing grade .."
The White man gave me the "opportunity" to be his second rate slave and get some crumbs and benefits while bowing to him. I chose the path of independance, where I challenged the elite,that went to Harvard and MIT on their face and walked out victorious- no 6 figure income can ever accomplish that....
As for tahmed, the sob is a hypocrite and when stumped feigns being decent and civilized (while rallying for the Iraq war in which over 1.2 million innocents have been killed according to recent surveys). And Manto, the effing twerp, all he wants is to worship the dead criminal MAJ, who is a total non factor in Pakistan these days except as cultural legitimation for siding with the neo-colonials and the US elite in their "enlightened moderation" and "democracy" even as they butcher people at will and wheel and deal behind the scenes in order to control this land which has become the whore of the West, a disgrace not only to the Muslims but to all free people everywhere.
The White man gave me the "opportunity" to be his second rate slave and get some crumbs and benefits while bowing to him. I chose the path of independance, where I challenged the elite,that went to Harvard and MIT on their face and walked out victorious- no 6 figure income can ever accomplish that....
As for tahmed, the sob is a hypocrite and when stumped feigns being decent and civilized (while rallying for the Iraq war in which over 1.2 million innocents have been killed according to recent surveys). And Manto, the effing twerp, all he wants is to worship the dead criminal MAJ, who is a total non factor in Pakistan these days except as cultural legitimation for siding with the neo-colonials and the US elite in their "enlightened moderation" and "democracy" even as they butcher people at will and wheel and deal behind the scenes in order to control this land which has become the whore of the West, a disgrace not only to the Muslims but to all free people everywhere.
#284 Posted by laddu on September 17, 2007 2:33:29 am
Dawah-i-dil
begum
we would love to see how much love you have in your heart for an idolator??
begum
we would love to see how much love you have in your heart for an idolator??
#283 Posted by hamidm2 on September 16, 2007 6:04:45 pm
Re: # 277
masadi,
..... tahmed and manto are gentlemen and too polite to put you where you belong ..... so, let me remind you that you are a miserable fool and a nincompoop full of poop ...... you are a failure who couldn't make it in the great land of opportunity where my sprinkler guy's son has made it to the harvard business school and where you had to subsist on government cheese and community college wages ........ don't take it out on the white man - he gave you the opportunity but you just didn't have it in you to make the passing grade ......... shame on you !
masadi,
..... tahmed and manto are gentlemen and too polite to put you where you belong ..... so, let me remind you that you are a miserable fool and a nincompoop full of poop ...... you are a failure who couldn't make it in the great land of opportunity where my sprinkler guy's son has made it to the harvard business school and where you had to subsist on government cheese and community college wages ........ don't take it out on the white man - he gave you the opportunity but you just didn't have it in you to make the passing grade ......... shame on you !
#282 Posted by tahmed32 on September 16, 2007 3:35:10 pm
thanks, mantolives, for your words of support. It is indeed true that strong language is no substitute for weak arguments.
#281 Posted by MantoLives on September 16, 2007 2:33:19 pm
Tahmed,
Masadi resorts to such language because he can't win arguments through logic. It is only natural that the frustrated professor resorts to what he knows best.
I think it is all Jinnah's fault really... had he not made Pakistan... Masadi would be a mere hawaldar in some far flung army unit during la ree la(left right left).
Masadi resorts to such language because he can't win arguments through logic. It is only natural that the frustrated professor resorts to what he knows best.
I think it is all Jinnah's fault really... had he not made Pakistan... Masadi would be a mere hawaldar in some far flung army unit during la ree la(left right left).
#280 Posted by tahmed32 on September 16, 2007 2:01:43 pm
masadi #277
you call me a "miserable fool" - you are entitled to your opinion.
you call me a "damn criminal". Expressing one's opinion does not make one a criminal. Except in a dictatorship.
you use the above abusive language because you dont agree with my statement that the 1964 civil rights act was a giant step forward in race relations. I dont argue with abusive posters - and so wont waste time with you except to say that you are entitled to your views.
you call me a "miserable fool" - you are entitled to your opinion.
you call me a "damn criminal". Expressing one's opinion does not make one a criminal. Except in a dictatorship.
you use the above abusive language because you dont agree with my statement that the 1964 civil rights act was a giant step forward in race relations. I dont argue with abusive posters - and so wont waste time with you except to say that you are entitled to your views.
#279 Posted by MantoLives on September 16, 2007 1:34:35 pm
No I am just not convinced of that entire line of argument...
#278 Posted by Urstruly on September 16, 2007 1:23:20 pm
Re: # 273
Now you are being smart after the fact; which is something that everybody can do.
Now you are being smart after the fact; which is something that everybody can do.
#277 Posted by masadi on September 16, 2007 12:18:59 pm
tahmed writes "And muslim countries find it much harder to progress beyond their obsolete traditions than truly progressive societies like the US did after the above video was made, when it took a giant step towards national integration as a result of the civil rights act of 1964."
This miserable fool, how he never misses an opportunity to say the hamd o naat of his objects of worship the US system and its elite. No "giant step" was taken in 1964, the civil rights efforts were coopted and its major figures killed by deceit and we see what happened thereafter, till today we see over a third of young African American youth incarcerated, having several times the likelihood of being lynched- executed by this white Criminal Justice System, having unemployment double that of whites, poverty almost double that of whites, life expectancy much less than whites and job segregation that segregates them in low paying janitorial jobs, as well as housing segregation that is of the highest percent anywhere in the developed world. What great steps please explain, and no first generation immigrants if they happen to be of color can compete at par with the whites this is just part of the "great american celebration" mythology. And to add to that what this damn criminal tahmed does is he blames the blacks for race based politics when they are vicitims of racism, he is in fact blaming the victims for the crimes of the ruling white elite who have set a system that allocates life chances based on skin color. Not only that he then has the audacity to blame dependant countries, underdeveloped countries of not progressing because they have such exclusionary traditions- no tradition can equal how the white race, its elite have oppressed the colored folk all over the world both during colonization (which this miserable immoral fool supports) and thereafter......Beware of such enemies of the people
This miserable fool, how he never misses an opportunity to say the hamd o naat of his objects of worship the US system and its elite. No "giant step" was taken in 1964, the civil rights efforts were coopted and its major figures killed by deceit and we see what happened thereafter, till today we see over a third of young African American youth incarcerated, having several times the likelihood of being lynched- executed by this white Criminal Justice System, having unemployment double that of whites, poverty almost double that of whites, life expectancy much less than whites and job segregation that segregates them in low paying janitorial jobs, as well as housing segregation that is of the highest percent anywhere in the developed world. What great steps please explain, and no first generation immigrants if they happen to be of color can compete at par with the whites this is just part of the "great american celebration" mythology. And to add to that what this damn criminal tahmed does is he blames the blacks for race based politics when they are vicitims of racism, he is in fact blaming the victims for the crimes of the ruling white elite who have set a system that allocates life chances based on skin color. Not only that he then has the audacity to blame dependant countries, underdeveloped countries of not progressing because they have such exclusionary traditions- no tradition can equal how the white race, its elite have oppressed the colored folk all over the world both during colonization (which this miserable immoral fool supports) and thereafter......Beware of such enemies of the people
#276 Posted by KaalChakra on September 16, 2007 11:45:59 am
"Ironic isn't it that the sufis almost completely supported the Pakistan Movement"
manto, I am so very glad you said that. There are so many things one simply does not say (clearly) lest too many people have their cherished illusions borken into a million pieces all at the same time.
manto, I am so very glad you said that. There are so many things one simply does not say (clearly) lest too many people have their cherished illusions borken into a million pieces all at the same time.
#275 Posted by MantoLives on September 16, 2007 11:31:21 am
"... while those with the straitjacket view of Islam stood against Pakistan Movement abusing Jinnah as Kafir"
#274 Posted by MantoLives on September 16, 2007 11:29:17 am
Re: # 236
Jayp
"The problem comes only when the book is said to contain all the truths and other religious people are to be killed."
Ironic isn't it that the sufis almost completely supported the Pakistan Movement ... while those with the straitjacket view of Islam stood against Jinnah abusing him as Kafir. Your pathetic understanding of history has so many holes in it that it looks like swiss cheese.
I'd say little knowledge is dangerous and you are the most dangerous of those who possess little knowledge.
Achyuth Patwardhan, one of the Socialist stalwarts in the Congress, has given a remarkably candid and self critical analysis of the Congress Party vis-a-vis Khilafat: 'It is, however, useful to recognise our share of this error of misdirection. To begin with, I am convinced that looking back upon the course of development of the freedom movement, THE 'HIMALAYAN ERROR' of Gandhiji's leadership was the support he extended on behalf of the Congress and the Indian people to the Khilafat Movement at the end of the World War I. This has proved to be a disastrous error which has brought in its wake a series of harmful consequences. On merits, it was a thoroughly reactionary step. The Khilafat was totally unworthy of support of the Progressive Muslims. Kemel Pasha established this solid fact by abolition of the Khilafat. The abolition of the Khilafat was widely welcomed by enlightened Muslim opinion the world over and Kemel was an undoubted hero of all young Muslims straining against Imperialist domination. But apart from the fact that Khilafat was an unworthy reactionary cause, Mahatma Gandhi had to align himself with a sectarian revivalist Muslim Leadership of clerics and maulvis. He was thus unwittingly responsible for jettisoning sane, secular, modernist leadership among the Muslims of India and foisting upon the Indian Muslims a theocratic orthodoxy of the Maulvis. Maulana Mohammed Ali's speeches read today appear strangely incoherent and out of tune with the spirit of secular political freedom. The Congress Movement which released the forces of religious liberalism and reform among the Hindus, and evoked a rational scientific outlook, placed the Muslims of India under the spell of orthodoxy and religious superstition by their support to the Khilafat leadership. Rationalist leaders like Jinnah were rebuffed by this attitude of Congress and Gandhi. This is the background of the psychological rift between Congress and the Muslim League'.
and
'Since the Khilafat agitation, things have changed and it has been one of the many injuries inflicted on India by the encouragement of the Khilafat crusade, that the inner Muslim feeling of hatred against 'unbelievers' has sprung up, naked and unashamed, as in years gone by'.
and
A terrible and gruesome fallout of the disastrous Khilafat experiment of Mahatma Gandhi was the Moplah Rebellion in Malabar District in 1921. According to the Report of the ENQUIRY COMMITTEE OF SERVANTS OF INDIA SOCIETY, the number of Hindus murdered by Moplah Muslims was 1500, the number of Hindus forcibly converted 20,000 and the value of property looted about Rs three crore. When the national and local leaders appealed to the virulently anti-Hindu Moplah Muslims in the name of Mahatma Gandhi to follow the ways of peace and non-violence, they replied bluntly with Islamic fervour: 'GANDHI IS A KAFIR, HOW CAN HE BE OUR LEADER?' Dr Anne Besant declared: 'The Moplah Muslim marauders murdered and plundered abundantly, killed or drove away all Hindus who would not apostatize. Somewhere about 100,000 people were driven from their homes with nothing but the clothes they had on, stripped of everything'. She also accused all the Khilafat religious preachers for all this terrible atrocities. J Campbell, chief of the Intelligence Department, Government of India, held the Khilafat leaders squarely responsible for inciting racial hatred resulting in Moplah carnage.
http://www.newstodaynet.com/2006sud/06aug/2208ss1.htm
Mahatma Gandhi's attempt to harness the feeling for the cause of national independence backfired and led to the uprising in Kerala known as the Moplah Rebellion. It took the British several months to put it down at the cost of thousands of lives.
Moplahs were very much part of the grand Khilafat Movement that Gandhi was spearheading and Gandhi kept apologising for them
The Dravidian Moplahs had directed their revolt with class venom against some Aryan high-caste Hindus with property as well as Britishers: Brahmanical elements tried to use that to spark a crisis in Hindu-Muslim relations all over India. Gandhi tried to hold a balance: like the U.S. press and the Negro nationalists who read it he stressed that the Moplah uprising could be made part of a united drive for independence by Indians of all sects.But he was also aware of the pan-Islamic dimension: in a December 1921 call to the British to suspend their attacks against the Moplahs, he was to observe that the Moplahs saw themselves as fighting for a religion with methods they considered religious: Yogesh Chadha, Rediscovering Gandhi (London: Century 1997) p. 254.
And lets not forget the Tehreek-e-Hijrat Fatwa that Gandhi's right hand man Azad gave to Muslims which gave Muslims two options "JEHAD" or "HIJRAT".
The Muslim Ulema, thinkers and activists called for the boycott of foreign goods and non-cooperation with the British government. Meetings were organised in order to rally the masses to support these issues. The meetings were organised under the banner of Mo’tamar al-Ansar (The Workers Conference) and various newspapers such as Al-Hilal of Maualana Abul Kalam Azad and The Comrade of Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar. Both Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad and Maulana Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar were put behind bars for publishing anti-British articles in their newspapers. The latter spent four years in prison between 1911 and 1915CE.
The allegiance of the Muslim intelligentsia of India at that to the Khilafah is unquestionable. Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad summed up their view when he wrote in his newspaper al-Hilal on 6th November 1912 that the Ottoman Sultans possessed the only sword which Muslims had for their protection. Insofar as the “caliphate was essentially a religious integration of the shari’a�, it became “necessary by revelation, is of God’s institution and that obedience to its authority is farz, or positively commanded�.
The Khilafat Movement
In September 1919, Maulana Muhammad Ali and his brother Shaukat Ali, together with Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad, Dr. Mukhtar Ahmed Ansari, and Hasrat Mohani, started a new organization, the Khilafat Movement (1919-1924). Their avowed aim was to use whatever leverage they had to protect the Khilafah. They organized Khilafat Conferences in several northern Indian cities. It is noticeable that the scholars and activists that were part of the Khilafat movement came from different schools of thought and backgrounds, for example Maulana Abul Kalam Azad was known to be a ‘ghayr taqleedi’ (non-taqleedi – who believed Taqleed to Mazahib is prohibited) and Maulana Mahmood Hasan was Deobandi who are followers of the Hanafi Mazhab yet they were united in the objective of working for the maintenance of the Khilafah.
In 1919, the Bombay Khilafat Committee agreed on two important organisational goals: “first, to urge the retention of the temporal powers of the Sultan of Turkey as Caliph, and second to ensure his continued suzerainty over the Islamic holy places.�
Delivering the presidential address at the Calcutta meeting of the Bengal Provincial Khilafat Conference in 1920, Maulana Azad discussed the importance of Khilafah he declared, “the purpose of this institution was to organise and lead the Muslim community in the right path, to establish justice, to bring about peace, and to spread God’s word in the world. For all this it was absolutely necessary for the caliph to possess temporal power�. Maulana Azad had no doubt that “without an Imam, their lives were un-Islamic and that they would be damned after death�.
Maulana Azad published a book in 1920 called Masla-e-Khilafat (The Issue of Khilafah), he stated: “Without the Khilafah the existence of Islam is not possible, the Muslims of India with all their effort and power need to work for this�.
In the same book page 176 Maulana Azad said, “There are two types of ahkam shariah, the first is related to the individual like the commands and prohibitions, the fara’id (obligations) and wajibat in order to perfect oneself. The second is not related to the individual but is related to the Ummah, nation, collective obligations and state politics like the conquering of lands, political and economic laws�.
According to Peter Hardy, Maulana Azad believed that, “The Muslim who would separate religion and politics for Muslims is an apostate who works silently�.
The loss of political power in India and the threat posed by a combination of forces to the temporal authority of the caliph, was so worrisome for the leaders of the Muslim community that some of them felt compelled to issue fatwas ‘in favour of migration (hijra)’ from India.
Maulana Abul Kalam Azad issued a fatwa which was published in the daily Ahl-e-Hadith of Amritsar on 30 July 1920. In his fatwa he urged Hijrat from India as an alternative to non-cooperation with the British. (YLH's note: Was the Hijaz Born Azad a "Wahabi"... note "Ahle-Hadith)
Maulana Abdul Bari’s fatwa said, “every Muslim residing here should adopt non-cooperation but if (that is) impossible, should proceed for hijrat�. Maulana Shaukat Ali issued a statement on behalf of the Central Khilafat Committee, “expressing the hope that all dedicated Muslims would stay in India and work for the non-cooperation. Only if it did not succeed would they consider resorting to hijrat�. The impact of the fatwa was electrifying and thousands of Muslims preferred to leave the Dar al harb of India where their religious rights symbolized in the position of the Turkish Caliph was being infringed.
And most amazing was the fact that Gandhi's encouragement led to Deobandi ulema creating the Jamiat ulema Hind ... which in its numerous forms and heads plagues South Asia even today... and all these groups are spin offs of the same.
All this came about before Two Nation Theory and Jinnah's conversion to Muslim separatism. Give credit where its due... or are you so shameless as to continue to deny the facts?
Jayp
"The problem comes only when the book is said to contain all the truths and other religious people are to be killed."
Ironic isn't it that the sufis almost completely supported the Pakistan Movement ... while those with the straitjacket view of Islam stood against Jinnah abusing him as Kafir. Your pathetic understanding of history has so many holes in it that it looks like swiss cheese.
I'd say little knowledge is dangerous and you are the most dangerous of those who possess little knowledge.
Achyuth Patwardhan, one of the Socialist stalwarts in the Congress, has given a remarkably candid and self critical analysis of the Congress Party vis-a-vis Khilafat: 'It is, however, useful to recognise our share of this error of misdirection. To begin with, I am convinced that looking back upon the course of development of the freedom movement, THE 'HIMALAYAN ERROR' of Gandhiji's leadership was the support he extended on behalf of the Congress and the Indian people to the Khilafat Movement at the end of the World War I. This has proved to be a disastrous error which has brought in its wake a series of harmful consequences. On merits, it was a thoroughly reactionary step. The Khilafat was totally unworthy of support of the Progressive Muslims. Kemel Pasha established this solid fact by abolition of the Khilafat. The abolition of the Khilafat was widely welcomed by enlightened Muslim opinion the world over and Kemel was an undoubted hero of all young Muslims straining against Imperialist domination. But apart from the fact that Khilafat was an unworthy reactionary cause, Mahatma Gandhi had to align himself with a sectarian revivalist Muslim Leadership of clerics and maulvis. He was thus unwittingly responsible for jettisoning sane, secular, modernist leadership among the Muslims of India and foisting upon the Indian Muslims a theocratic orthodoxy of the Maulvis. Maulana Mohammed Ali's speeches read today appear strangely incoherent and out of tune with the spirit of secular political freedom. The Congress Movement which released the forces of religious liberalism and reform among the Hindus, and evoked a rational scientific outlook, placed the Muslims of India under the spell of orthodoxy and religious superstition by their support to the Khilafat leadership. Rationalist leaders like Jinnah were rebuffed by this attitude of Congress and Gandhi. This is the background of the psychological rift between Congress and the Muslim League'.
and
'Since the Khilafat agitation, things have changed and it has been one of the many injuries inflicted on India by the encouragement of the Khilafat crusade, that the inner Muslim feeling of hatred against 'unbelievers' has sprung up, naked and unashamed, as in years gone by'.
and
A terrible and gruesome fallout of the disastrous Khilafat experiment of Mahatma Gandhi was the Moplah Rebellion in Malabar District in 1921. According to the Report of the ENQUIRY COMMITTEE OF SERVANTS OF INDIA SOCIETY, the number of Hindus murdered by Moplah Muslims was 1500, the number of Hindus forcibly converted 20,000 and the value of property looted about Rs three crore. When the national and local leaders appealed to the virulently anti-Hindu Moplah Muslims in the name of Mahatma Gandhi to follow the ways of peace and non-violence, they replied bluntly with Islamic fervour: 'GANDHI IS A KAFIR, HOW CAN HE BE OUR LEADER?' Dr Anne Besant declared: 'The Moplah Muslim marauders murdered and plundered abundantly, killed or drove away all Hindus who would not apostatize. Somewhere about 100,000 people were driven from their homes with nothing but the clothes they had on, stripped of everything'. She also accused all the Khilafat religious preachers for all this terrible atrocities. J Campbell, chief of the Intelligence Department, Government of India, held the Khilafat leaders squarely responsible for inciting racial hatred resulting in Moplah carnage.
http://www.newstodaynet.com/2006sud/06aug/2208ss1.htm
Mahatma Gandhi's attempt to harness the feeling for the cause of national independence backfired and led to the uprising in Kerala known as the Moplah Rebellion. It took the British several months to put it down at the cost of thousands of lives.
Moplahs were very much part of the grand Khilafat Movement that Gandhi was spearheading and Gandhi kept apologising for them
The Dravidian Moplahs had directed their revolt with class venom against some Aryan high-caste Hindus with property as well as Britishers: Brahmanical elements tried to use that to spark a crisis in Hindu-Muslim relations all over India. Gandhi tried to hold a balance: like the U.S. press and the Negro nationalists who read it he stressed that the Moplah uprising could be made part of a united drive for independence by Indians of all sects.But he was also aware of the pan-Islamic dimension: in a December 1921 call to the British to suspend their attacks against the Moplahs, he was to observe that the Moplahs saw themselves as fighting for a religion with methods they considered religious: Yogesh Chadha, Rediscovering Gandhi (London: Century 1997) p. 254.
And lets not forget the Tehreek-e-Hijrat Fatwa that Gandhi's right hand man Azad gave to Muslims which gave Muslims two options "JEHAD" or "HIJRAT".
The Muslim Ulema, thinkers and activists called for the boycott of foreign goods and non-cooperation with the British government. Meetings were organised in order to rally the masses to support these issues. The meetings were organised under the banner of Mo’tamar al-Ansar (The Workers Conference) and various newspapers such as Al-Hilal of Maualana Abul Kalam Azad and The Comrade of Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar. Both Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad and Maulana Maulana Mohammad Ali Jauhar were put behind bars for publishing anti-British articles in their newspapers. The latter spent four years in prison between 1911 and 1915CE.
The allegiance of the Muslim intelligentsia of India at that to the Khilafah is unquestionable. Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad summed up their view when he wrote in his newspaper al-Hilal on 6th November 1912 that the Ottoman Sultans possessed the only sword which Muslims had for their protection. Insofar as the “caliphate was essentially a religious integration of the shari’a�, it became “necessary by revelation, is of God’s institution and that obedience to its authority is farz, or positively commanded�.
The Khilafat Movement
In September 1919, Maulana Muhammad Ali and his brother Shaukat Ali, together with Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad, Dr. Mukhtar Ahmed Ansari, and Hasrat Mohani, started a new organization, the Khilafat Movement (1919-1924). Their avowed aim was to use whatever leverage they had to protect the Khilafah. They organized Khilafat Conferences in several northern Indian cities. It is noticeable that the scholars and activists that were part of the Khilafat movement came from different schools of thought and backgrounds, for example Maulana Abul Kalam Azad was known to be a ‘ghayr taqleedi’ (non-taqleedi – who believed Taqleed to Mazahib is prohibited) and Maulana Mahmood Hasan was Deobandi who are followers of the Hanafi Mazhab yet they were united in the objective of working for the maintenance of the Khilafah.
In 1919, the Bombay Khilafat Committee agreed on two important organisational goals: “first, to urge the retention of the temporal powers of the Sultan of Turkey as Caliph, and second to ensure his continued suzerainty over the Islamic holy places.�
Delivering the presidential address at the Calcutta meeting of the Bengal Provincial Khilafat Conference in 1920, Maulana Azad discussed the importance of Khilafah he declared, “the purpose of this institution was to organise and lead the Muslim community in the right path, to establish justice, to bring about peace, and to spread God’s word in the world. For all this it was absolutely necessary for the caliph to possess temporal power�. Maulana Azad had no doubt that “without an Imam, their lives were un-Islamic and that they would be damned after death�.
Maulana Azad published a book in 1920 called Masla-e-Khilafat (The Issue of Khilafah), he stated: “Without the Khilafah the existence of Islam is not possible, the Muslims of India with all their effort and power need to work for this�.
In the same book page 176 Maulana Azad said, “There are two types of ahkam shariah, the first is related to the individual like the commands and prohibitions, the fara’id (obligations) and wajibat in order to perfect oneself. The second is not related to the individual but is related to the Ummah, nation, collective obligations and state politics like the conquering of lands, political and economic laws�.
According to Peter Hardy, Maulana Azad believed that, “The Muslim who would separate religion and politics for Muslims is an apostate who works silently�.
The loss of political power in India and the threat posed by a combination of forces to the temporal authority of the caliph, was so worrisome for the leaders of the Muslim community that some of them felt compelled to issue fatwas ‘in favour of migration (hijra)’ from India.
Maulana Abul Kalam Azad issued a fatwa which was published in the daily Ahl-e-Hadith of Amritsar on 30 July 1920. In his fatwa he urged Hijrat from India as an alternative to non-cooperation with the British. (YLH's note: Was the Hijaz Born Azad a "Wahabi"... note "Ahle-Hadith)
Maulana Abdul Bari’s fatwa said, “every Muslim residing here should adopt non-cooperation but if (that is) impossible, should proceed for hijrat�. Maulana Shaukat Ali issued a statement on behalf of the Central Khilafat Committee, “expressing the hope that all dedicated Muslims would stay in India and work for the non-cooperation. Only if it did not succeed would they consider resorting to hijrat�. The impact of the fatwa was electrifying and thousands of Muslims preferred to leave the Dar al harb of India where their religious rights symbolized in the position of the Turkish Caliph was being infringed.
And most amazing was the fact that Gandhi's encouragement led to Deobandi ulema creating the Jamiat ulema Hind ... which in its numerous forms and heads plagues South Asia even today... and all these groups are spin offs of the same.
All this came about before Two Nation Theory and Jinnah's conversion to Muslim separatism. Give credit where its due... or are you so shameless as to continue to deny the facts?
#273 Posted by MantoLives on September 16, 2007 11:20:32 am
Re: # 229
So in other words the Pir was proving the dishonesty of an imposter nabi by bluffing like crazy?
Now while I can appreciate your argument on a secular level even though I still don't see how it would constitute Mirza's assent to such obnoxious standard of evidence... On a religious level this whole bluffing business becomes very suspect.
So in other words the Pir was proving the dishonesty of an imposter nabi by bluffing like crazy?
Now while I can appreciate your argument on a secular level even though I still don't see how it would constitute Mirza's assent to such obnoxious standard of evidence... On a religious level this whole bluffing business becomes very suspect.
#272 Posted by TOLKININ on September 16, 2007 11:13:51 am
#270
Chalta "The representation of your authentic Islam is evident all the way from philippines to the US. Where ever there is a sizable minority of authentic muslims, there is conflict. Such ideology doesn't seem very practical at all, regardless of your hopeful wishes."
How many of Islamic people By and large much much larger no Muslims ( majority misrepresented by you}are content just as many a Hindus.The fact Hindus did not spread out side Indian Peninsula b/C Himalayas ..The three sides water and before that British Mastered Navigation to explain Why Hindus could not venture outside .Its not some esoteric voluntary decision but geographical limitation.
Much lager number of Muslims from One End of The World To other are living just as peacefully as Indians .If few Philines are added to Southern Thai few And even Palestinians and Alkieda the leaves vast number of Muslims far outnumber the nonpeacful but so are Naxal ,LTTE ,Bodo are not represntative of larger Indians.The afghanistan & iraq is differernt case all together for obvious reason
Chalta "The representation of your authentic Islam is evident all the way from philippines to the US. Where ever there is a sizable minority of authentic muslims, there is conflict. Such ideology doesn't seem very practical at all, regardless of your hopeful wishes."
How many of Islamic people By and large much much larger no Muslims ( majority misrepresented by you}are content just as many a Hindus.The fact Hindus did not spread out side Indian Peninsula b/C Himalayas ..The three sides water and before that British Mastered Navigation to explain Why Hindus could not venture outside .Its not some esoteric voluntary decision but geographical limitation.
Much lager number of Muslims from One End of The World To other are living just as peacefully as Indians .If few Philines are added to Southern Thai few And even Palestinians and Alkieda the leaves vast number of Muslims far outnumber the nonpeacful but so are Naxal ,LTTE ,Bodo are not represntative of larger Indians.The afghanistan & iraq is differernt case all together for obvious reason
#271 Posted by KaalChakra on September 16, 2007 9:42:33 am
chaltahai, I guess you are right.
There is a little bit of a discussion on Uplugged, on ts sahib's thread, that may also be, partly, relevant.
There is a little bit of a discussion on Uplugged, on ts sahib's thread, that may also be, partly, relevant.
#270 Posted by chaltahai on September 16, 2007 7:58:38 am
Oh and Kaal, hindus or others don't like sufis because they are afraid of islam or want to change islam or need islam 101. They like it because Sufis represent Islam in the best light. The representation of your authentic Islam is evident all the way from philippines to the US. Where ever there is a sizeable minorty of authentic muslims, there is conflict. Such ideology doesn't seem very practical at all, regardless of your hopeful wishes.
#269 Posted by chaltahai on September 16, 2007 7:52:33 am
Funny stuff Hamid :-)
Kaal, tell me why sufism isn't an improvement over your version of authentic Islam. In the meantime I will stick to my theory of change as the constant and change happening at the fringes of every idealogy until the fringe becomes as relevant as the core ideology. This happens because the fringe comes into contact with what is around us. the core, while foolishly holding on to tenets and mandates, fights aimlessly to preserve itself but loses in the end as the tenets can't handle the change.
take tahmed below..if he was walking around in saudi and said, what he wrote the religious police would make him kneel and bob right on the street during jumma. this is the insecurity of the core or authentic islam as you put it. It is not an endearing trait, it is the exact opposite. While tahmed might be a perfectly good muslim, i.e. being born into islam, sees things from a muslim p.o.v. Loves the egality promoted by islam. May even ccondone jihad against the dirty hindoos...but he also likes to watch brittney spears videos, he has a beer once in a while, can lipsynch "Voh Krishna hai"...and that puts him on the fringe. The funny thing is that the fringe is a lot bigger in Islam than the core, you want to hark back to. :-) Damn that Brittney
Kaal, tell me why sufism isn't an improvement over your version of authentic Islam. In the meantime I will stick to my theory of change as the constant and change happening at the fringes of every idealogy until the fringe becomes as relevant as the core ideology. This happens because the fringe comes into contact with what is around us. the core, while foolishly holding on to tenets and mandates, fights aimlessly to preserve itself but loses in the end as the tenets can't handle the change.
take tahmed below..if he was walking around in saudi and said, what he wrote the religious police would make him kneel and bob right on the street during jumma. this is the insecurity of the core or authentic islam as you put it. It is not an endearing trait, it is the exact opposite. While tahmed might be a perfectly good muslim, i.e. being born into islam, sees things from a muslim p.o.v. Loves the egality promoted by islam. May even ccondone jihad against the dirty hindoos...but he also likes to watch brittney spears videos, he has a beer once in a while, can lipsynch "Voh Krishna hai"...and that puts him on the fringe. The funny thing is that the fringe is a lot bigger in Islam than the core, you want to hark back to. :-) Damn that Brittney
#268 Posted by tahmed32 on September 16, 2007 7:11:32 am
hamidm: thinkingstorm and kaalchakra are the reformers of their respective religions. I am merely their loyal chamcha. :-)
I have said before, and will repeat - rituals (namaz, roza, haj) as a way of cleansing sins and/or getting "sawab" in fact contribute to moral depravation in Pakistan, rather than promote piety!! e.g., bribery rates at karachi port increase after jumma prayers (since, or so the theory goes, the calculation is that post-jumma sins will stick for a full week, while pre-jumma sins are quickly washed away). Similarly, I have seen the most morally depraved individuals run off to "cleanse their sins" doing haj in air-conditioned comfort. And good-for-nothing maulvis who would never dream of doing anything constructive (like cleaning the streets in the neighborhood) merely add to the noise pollution with their loudspeakers.
However, rituals as a way to promote personal happiness through appreciation for what one has and through self-descipline , as opposed to the myth that they wash away sins etc. can be very good for you (as millions of meditators, yoga practitioners, e.g. will attest). You could spend your life eating and drinking like a character out of a mike moore movie, and cribbing about what you dont have and ignoring what you do, or you can do the opposite (with or without the help of rituals). But from the point of view of religion, I agree that rituals are insignificant, and intentions and deeds are what really count. God does not need rituals, and many rituals are in fact of no use even to man. But some rituals can help you as an individual lead a happier life.
I have said before, and will repeat - rituals (namaz, roza, haj) as a way of cleansing sins and/or getting "sawab" in fact contribute to moral depravation in Pakistan, rather than promote piety!! e.g., bribery rates at karachi port increase after jumma prayers (since, or so the theory goes, the calculation is that post-jumma sins will stick for a full week, while pre-jumma sins are quickly washed away). Similarly, I have seen the most morally depraved individuals run off to "cleanse their sins" doing haj in air-conditioned comfort. And good-for-nothing maulvis who would never dream of doing anything constructive (like cleaning the streets in the neighborhood) merely add to the noise pollution with their loudspeakers.
However, rituals as a way to promote personal happiness through appreciation for what one has and through self-descipline , as opposed to the myth that they wash away sins etc. can be very good for you (as millions of meditators, yoga practitioners, e.g. will attest). You could spend your life eating and drinking like a character out of a mike moore movie, and cribbing about what you dont have and ignoring what you do, or you can do the opposite (with or without the help of rituals). But from the point of view of religion, I agree that rituals are insignificant, and intentions and deeds are what really count. God does not need rituals, and many rituals are in fact of no use even to man. But some rituals can help you as an individual lead a happier life.
#267 Posted by hamidm2 on September 16, 2007 6:40:14 am
tahmed and thinkingstorm,
..... if you guys are so interested in reforming islam and making it a normal religion instead of a bloody ideology that is bent on destroying the world, why don't you start by putting an end to the silliness of praying five times a day and this ritual starvation period which is causing me a lot of personal hardship ....... i have always maintained that namaz is the source of all evil and roza is its twin evil .... religion, like sex and food, is a good thing, as long as it is done in some moderation ..... otherwise it can result in blindness and obesity ......
..... and who came up with this uncivilized way of praying anyway?..... alberto gonzales ?........ i would rather be waterboarded than have to squat on my haunches with my ankles painfully twisted under me like a masochistic contortionist while some idiot mumbles in painful arabic ........ i would rather be put in a stress position by lyndie england and her boyfriend and be bombarded with metallica ..... well, you might say that i don't really have to pray ...easier said than done !... during this unholy month mrs hamidm is in a religious frenzy and drags me off to all these iftaar parties where you don't get fed unless you line up with the boys and pray to the moon god ....
.... and what is up with this mandatory starvation for a whole month ? .... why couldn't we be like the more civilized christians and give up something for ramzan - i am perfectly willing to give up the tonic in my gin, or the soda in my whiskey for a day or two ....... better yet, why couldn't we be like our horrible hindoo cousins and make our women starve .... come to think of it, that is one of the few grandpa gopinath traditions that i have managed to keep alive inspite of constant nagging by mrs hamidm who gets caught up in this nonsense every year - it must be the moon .... i really don't mind her subjecting herself to this mindless ritual as long as she keeps it down when she gets up in the morning - the clatter of pots and pans and the wafting aroma of frying eggs wakes me up ..... at my age, a man needs his sleep .....
....... twenty eight more days of hell ..... we shall overcome !
#266 Posted by tahmed32 on September 16, 2007 6:13:47 am
kaalchakra #260: keep those ideas coming, my friend. we all learn from one another. you have a following of not just one (yourself), but of at least two (i.e. myself included).
#265 Posted by tahmed32 on September 16, 2007 5:53:01 am
thinkingstorm #261: you wrote I liked his (malcolm x's) fiery speeches before he went for hajj.
I liked the change in malcolm x after the hajj when he saw for the first time what would be considered racial diversity in mecca, and split with the black "muslims" by taking race-based thinking out of his religion. As he said, and here the youtube with malcolm x saying that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AojtR9qMf7U
As x says in the youtube video above, he saw people who would be considered white in america but who saw themselves as just human beings.
This to me represents the finest in muslim culture - egalitarianism. When rich and poor, people of all colors, come together as equals.
And it is this egalitariansim that makes Islam anathema to the jayps of India.
I should to add that egalitarianism in Islam continues, it exists alongside the many ills that afflict muslim societies today and make them the most backward of human societies today in many ways (superstitions over rationality of the kind exemplified by naqshbandi, religious fascism, and so on). And it does not come close to he egalitarianism that comes with democracy, as in the US where first generation immigrants from third world countries become successful business owners through hard work. And muslim countries find it much harder to progress beyond their obsolete traditions than truly progressive societies like the US did after the above video was made, when it took a giant step towards national integration as a result of the civil rights act of 1964.
I liked the change in malcolm x after the hajj when he saw for the first time what would be considered racial diversity in mecca, and split with the black "muslims" by taking race-based thinking out of his religion. As he said, and here the youtube with malcolm x saying that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AojtR9qMf7U
As x says in the youtube video above, he saw people who would be considered white in america but who saw themselves as just human beings.
This to me represents the finest in muslim culture - egalitarianism. When rich and poor, people of all colors, come together as equals.
And it is this egalitariansim that makes Islam anathema to the jayps of India.
I should to add that egalitarianism in Islam continues, it exists alongside the many ills that afflict muslim societies today and make them the most backward of human societies today in many ways (superstitions over rationality of the kind exemplified by naqshbandi, religious fascism, and so on). And it does not come close to he egalitarianism that comes with democracy, as in the US where first generation immigrants from third world countries become successful business owners through hard work. And muslim countries find it much harder to progress beyond their obsolete traditions than truly progressive societies like the US did after the above video was made, when it took a giant step towards national integration as a result of the civil rights act of 1964.
#264 Posted by KaalChakra on September 15, 2007 10:05:54 pm
chalta, without commenting on the rest of that post, Sufism does NOT show, by any stretch of one's imagination, that "Islam has an ability to change." Practical Islam has always been quite diverse. The first sufi was born probably the moment Islam became a public doctrine.
We need Islam 101 for Hindus. May be we talk to too many 'Sufis' who won't know Islam if it hit them in their faces.
P.S.: To clarify, one did not mean earlier that Jinnah personally worshipped Vishnu, or ever considered such a thing desirable. Had that really been the case, he would never have disappointed Jayp and promoted TNT. The reference was to something much bigger than Jinnah, and the interesting role of Sufism in it.
I assumed that that history was widely known. If it is not, I will just summarize the argument: Vishnu-worshipping Sufism merely creates Jinnahs (if you don't like them). But Sufism is utterly incapable, in every way (religiously, intellectually, socially), of keeping Jinnahs from turning into real Muslims at an appropriate time.
Sufism is not an alternative to, opposition to, or improvement upon actual Islam in any form at all. Please don't let any ignorant or deceptive sufi convince you otherwise.
And this has nothing to do with things being cut and dried or wet and limp.
-------------
But again, our differences are not large. I think I understand where you are coming from. Just for now, I would like to end this discussion here, with you having the last word, of course. :)
We need Islam 101 for Hindus. May be we talk to too many 'Sufis' who won't know Islam if it hit them in their faces.
P.S.: To clarify, one did not mean earlier that Jinnah personally worshipped Vishnu, or ever considered such a thing desirable. Had that really been the case, he would never have disappointed Jayp and promoted TNT. The reference was to something much bigger than Jinnah, and the interesting role of Sufism in it.
I assumed that that history was widely known. If it is not, I will just summarize the argument: Vishnu-worshipping Sufism merely creates Jinnahs (if you don't like them). But Sufism is utterly incapable, in every way (religiously, intellectually, socially), of keeping Jinnahs from turning into real Muslims at an appropriate time.
Sufism is not an alternative to, opposition to, or improvement upon actual Islam in any form at all. Please don't let any ignorant or deceptive sufi convince you otherwise.
And this has nothing to do with things being cut and dried or wet and limp.
-------------
But again, our differences are not large. I think I understand where you are coming from. Just for now, I would like to end this discussion here, with you having the last word, of course. :)
#263 Posted by chaltahai on September 15, 2007 8:54:39 pm
Kaal, hinduism has not become fake Islam but fake as what you deem authentic Islam. BTW, It is much easier for hinduism to become authentic unlike islam..which unfortunately is sullied for ever. Therein lies the rub, bub.
Oh and genuine authentic islam IS all foolishness. And this has nothing to do with hindusim. This authencity or rigidity (probably the right word for the qattribute) you hold as some exalted virtue within Islam is actually the reason for the incompatibity of muslims within the ever changing world. It is similar to your hindu liberal lamentations..the more they resist and hark back to bells and whistles free islam, the more segmented it gets.
Hindus like Sufism because it shows that Islam has an ability to change. Not because it is a threat to some instransient version of islam. Change is the only constant that you can count on..dogma hasn't a chance and seems almost unnatural
Oh and genuine authentic islam IS all foolishness. And this has nothing to do with hindusim. This authencity or rigidity (probably the right word for the qattribute) you hold as some exalted virtue within Islam is actually the reason for the incompatibity of muslims within the ever changing world. It is similar to your hindu liberal lamentations..the more they resist and hark back to bells and whistles free islam, the more segmented it gets.
Hindus like Sufism because it shows that Islam has an ability to change. Not because it is a threat to some instransient version of islam. Change is the only constant that you can count on..dogma hasn't a chance and seems almost unnatural
#262 Posted by nb on September 15, 2007 8:54:04 pm
Re: # 245 have to agree with you-things have to be cut and dry in a particular way to satisfy our learned friend.
#261 Posted by thinkingstorm on September 15, 2007 8:49:36 pm
tahmed sahib,
May I be the Malcom X of Islam reformation? I liked his fiery speeches before he went for hajj.
Unlike Usman the pious (Kaal), I do have grand illusions (mashallah).
with much respect,
thinking storm
May I be the Malcom X of Islam reformation? I liked his fiery speeches before he went for hajj.
Unlike Usman the pious (Kaal), I do have grand illusions (mashallah).
with much respect,
thinking storm
#260 Posted by KaalChakra on September 15, 2007 8:30:12 pm
lol tahmedji, I have a very large following of one, myself. But there is no doubt that armies of martin luther kings will continue to arise. And they might do better at their time and place.
My aim is merely to keep throwing out little ideas into the air. If someone finds any of them interesting, well, good, if not, I have the satisfaction of knowing I did what I did. No great illusions here. :) :)
My aim is merely to keep throwing out little ideas into the air. If someone finds any of them interesting, well, good, if not, I have the satisfaction of knowing I did what I did. No great illusions here. :) :)
#259 Posted by tahmed32 on September 15, 2007 8:17:08 pm
Kaalchakra #256 You could be the Martin Luther King of the Hindu Reformation. Thinkingstorm could be the Martin Luther King of the Muslim Reformation. Between the two of you, Pope Naqshbandi will be helpless!!
#258 Posted by tahmed32 on September 15, 2007 8:13:01 pm
#254 thinkingstorm: May I make a special commendation for Jay Thakeray who has taughte me the true meaning of "Ai Quaid-e-Azam tera ahsaan hai, tera ahsaan!"? ;-)
#257 Posted by tahmed32 on September 15, 2007 8:10:50 pm
#253 chaltahai: That was a rhetorical question. So you answer is superfluous.
#256 Posted by KaalChakra on September 15, 2007 8:02:37 pm
chalta, chalo, we will continue with this another time. Our differences are not that large. We are just talking past each other a little bit. :)
---------------------------
ts, assimiliation I don't mind, since I do NOT see real Islam as the Great Unmitigated Evil from which mankind will be saved by the White Knight of Sufism (as almost every other Hindu here seems to be convinced).
I just think this total Hindu misunderstanding about Sufism, Islam, and their mutual relationship itself creates many many social conflicts (not individual conflicts) that could be otherwise avoided. Sufism is a clear roadblock to creating peace, just as ignorant Hindu liberalism is.
We need genuine understanding on both sides. Not wishful silliness or wooliness.
Unfortunately, as I once argued when you were not here, Hinduism has become a religion of blind believers in man-made doctrines. It has become fake "Islam". It has come to consider necessary change as a form of liberal sin. It's men and women believe they have achieved perfection, and genuine authentic Islam is all foolishness.
But it shall yet die, on its own, because it has vanity, but no legs. Anybody willing to spend time actually learning things will see why ancient beliefs that continue to guide liberal Hinduism do not work in changed environment.
We need a new dharma, and by gosh, we shall have it! Not by force but because I have confidence in basic thinking abilities of everyone, Hindus and Muslims and all others.
---------------------------
ts, assimiliation I don't mind, since I do NOT see real Islam as the Great Unmitigated Evil from which mankind will be saved by the White Knight of Sufism (as almost every other Hindu here seems to be convinced).
I just think this total Hindu misunderstanding about Sufism, Islam, and their mutual relationship itself creates many many social conflicts (not individual conflicts) that could be otherwise avoided. Sufism is a clear roadblock to creating peace, just as ignorant Hindu liberalism is.
We need genuine understanding on both sides. Not wishful silliness or wooliness.
Unfortunately, as I once argued when you were not here, Hinduism has become a religion of blind believers in man-made doctrines. It has become fake "Islam". It has come to consider necessary change as a form of liberal sin. It's men and women believe they have achieved perfection, and genuine authentic Islam is all foolishness.
But it shall yet die, on its own, because it has vanity, but no legs. Anybody willing to spend time actually learning things will see why ancient beliefs that continue to guide liberal Hinduism do not work in changed environment.
We need a new dharma, and by gosh, we shall have it! Not by force but because I have confidence in basic thinking abilities of everyone, Hindus and Muslims and all others.
#255 Posted by thinkingstorm on September 15, 2007 7:59:59 pm
Dear Dawa-i-dil,
I am feeling particularly gunahgaar today,can you please share with us your opinion on whether Shai are muslim or kafir? I have heard that when they pray, before the final salaam, they hold each other's hand and start dancing to the tune of "Ali ali ali ali kar"??
Please post a comment, or 80, to let me know what you think....
.
with much respect,
thinking storm
I am feeling particularly gunahgaar today,can you please share with us your opinion on whether Shai are muslim or kafir? I have heard that when they pray, before the final salaam, they hold each other's hand and start dancing to the tune of "Ali ali ali ali kar"??
Please post a comment, or 80, to let me know what you think....
.
with much respect,
thinking storm
#254 Posted by thinkingstorm on September 15, 2007 7:50:06 pm
chalta,
I am making a list of people to commend for thier extraordinary service to Pakistan, the land of the pure. Names like Arjun2, Sadna, and Jang are already on this list for thier unwavering and unrelenting biased focus on all matters Pakistani. We Pakistanis can only become better with encouragment from this group.
- Arjun has been awarded the nishan-e-suragh
- Jang has been awarded the nishan-e-suraakh (so no-one is confused)
- Sadna bibi is currently going through the second round of deliberation by the awards committee.
- And you my good man, have made it into my good graces and I am fast tracking your nomination. You may in fact be awarded a nishan before Sadna..
Carry on.
with much respect,
thinking storm
I am making a list of people to commend for thier extraordinary service to Pakistan, the land of the pure. Names like Arjun2, Sadna, and Jang are already on this list for thier unwavering and unrelenting biased focus on all matters Pakistani. We Pakistanis can only become better with encouragment from this group.
- Arjun has been awarded the nishan-e-suragh
- Jang has been awarded the nishan-e-suraakh (so no-one is confused)
- Sadna bibi is currently going through the second round of deliberation by the awards committee.
- And you my good man, have made it into my good graces and I am fast tracking your nomination. You may in fact be awarded a nishan before Sadna..
Carry on.
with much respect,
thinking storm
#253 Posted by chaltahai on September 15, 2007 7:39:17 pm
Tahmed, I like lowly pakis man..especially you...what do you have against lowly pakis?.
#252 Posted by chaltahai on September 15, 2007 7:34:55 pm
Kaal (disregard 249, I am not drunk..I promise) , sufism like ahmedism doesn't strive in pakiland not because hindus can't live with islam..but because muslims deem them outside the fold of their religion. It is this insecurity within Islam that makes educated, logical and most sensible people draft legal mandates to declare ahmedis non-muslims in a man-made constitution. (how ridiculous is that?) Sorry..no hindu has anything to with this. It is an entirely islamic phenomenon. There is no authentic islam btw. There is no authentic religion..because it there was, it would be gone forever..faith cannot stand the strains of time..like you..it tries to retrofit the surroundings (which are constantly changing..into neat little boxes to make sense of them per the boundaries laid out thousands of years ago. Silly..ain't it. :-)
#251 Posted by tahmed32 on September 15, 2007 7:32:50 pm
chaltahai: and what is a man-about-town like you doing wasting time with lowly pakis on the internet on a saturday night??
it's saturday night
and i aint got nobody
:-(
it's saturday night
and i aint got nobody
:-(
#250 Posted by tahmed32 on September 15, 2007 7:31:29 pm
chaltahai: still having trouble saying the word "Pakistan". 60 years is long enough. get used to the idea. resistance is futile, as thinking storm says.
#249 Posted by chaltahai on September 15, 2007 7:29:35 pm
Kaal, sufism like ahmedism doesn't strive in pakiland because hindus can't live with islam..but because muslims (those who deem things outside of their things as islamic or non-islam) deem them outside the fold of their religion. It is this insecurity within Islam that makes educated, logical and almost sensible people draft legal mandates to declare ahmedis non-muslims in a man-made constitution. What more can be more ridiculous than this? Sorry..no hindu has anything to with this. It is an entirely islamic phenomenon. There is no authentic islam btw. There is no authentic religion..because it there was it would be gone forever..faith cannot stand the strains of time..like you..it tries to retrofit the surroundings (which are constantly changing..into neat little boxes to make sense of them per the boundaries laid out thousands of years ago. Silly..ain't it. :-)
#248 Posted by thinkingstorm on September 15, 2007 7:26:25 pm
chalta-
listen to Kaal, he is trying to save you from assimilation .
But remember, resistance is futile :)
with much respect,
thinking storm
listen to Kaal, he is trying to save you from assimilation .
But remember, resistance is futile :)
with much respect,
thinking storm
#247 Posted by tahmed32 on September 15, 2007 7:25:59 pm
Naqshbandi #235 you write "the way to Paradise is the prophet".
This is too vague, and can be construed in a number of ways:
If you mean "follow the message conveyed to the prophet", then you need to explain how sufism (concerned with the spiritual world) has any relevance to the message of Islam (which is concerned with human actions in this world).
If you mean "do as the prophet did", then you are contradicting yourself given your message of following other men (i.e. sufis) while the prophet did not follow any sufi.
But dont let these little details come in the way of your spiritual quest.... :-)
This is too vague, and can be construed in a number of ways:
If you mean "follow the message conveyed to the prophet", then you need to explain how sufism (concerned with the spiritual world) has any relevance to the message of Islam (which is concerned with human actions in this world).
If you mean "do as the prophet did", then you are contradicting yourself given your message of following other men (i.e. sufis) while the prophet did not follow any sufi.
But dont let these little details come in the way of your spiritual quest.... :-)
#246 Posted by KaalChakra on September 15, 2007 7:20:09 pm
chaltahai, what you wrote in # 243 would be very true, but only if sufism had real power and depth, or real conviction, to challenge real, authentic Islam. Then it could change Islam, if that were desirable.
It has none of those things. Think about it. Few educated Muslims stay with Sufism for long. Like Ahmedism, Sufism thrives mostly in non-Islamic societies. And in those countries, sufism does nothing but promote misunderstanding.
Why shouldn't Muslims and non-Muslims develop a genuine understanding of each other, and create ways to live together?
It has none of those things. Think about it. Few educated Muslims stay with Sufism for long. Like Ahmedism, Sufism thrives mostly in non-Islamic societies. And in those countries, sufism does nothing but promote misunderstanding.
Why shouldn't Muslims and non-Muslims develop a genuine understanding of each other, and create ways to live together?
#245 Posted by chaltahai on September 15, 2007 7:15:40 pm
Kaal, it is funny..you like to circumsccribe people and beliefs into neat little boxes to retrofit your thinking. very Islamic trait, if you ask me. (pun intended) :-)
#244 Posted by KaalChakra on September 15, 2007 7:11:33 pm
No, ts, it is important that jayp and chalta understand a key point. Of course, I don't mean that Jinnah was anything less than a good Muslim. He was. That is why that post is NOT addressed to any Pakistani admirer of Jinnah. ONLY to Hindu admirers of sufism, who believe, totally mistakenly, that somehow sufism is "good" and Islam is not.
That is a false notion that leaves Hindus unprepared to live with Islam, sufism or not.
That is a false notion that leaves Hindus unprepared to live with Islam, sufism or not.
#243 Posted by chaltahai on September 15, 2007 7:07:47 pm
kaal, even if jinnah was a Vishu worshipper that still doesn't take away from the negatives of religion. Moreso Islam..what is your point? It is entirely disingeunous to suggest that his love for Vishnu drove the TNT..I would say that it was his love for allah that did it. Now what?
To form beliefs diluting dogma is not disingenous nor is authenticity some virtuous attribute, especially if it precludes evolution and amalgamation of ideas.
To form beliefs diluting dogma is not disingenous nor is authenticity some virtuous attribute, especially if it precludes evolution and amalgamation of ideas.
#242 Posted by thinkingstorm on September 15, 2007 6:57:22 pm
Usman (Kaalchakra),
Your slyness is effecting your piousness.
with much respect,
thinking storm
Your slyness is effecting your piousness.
with much respect,
thinking storm
#241 Posted by KaalChakra on September 15, 2007 6:45:14 pm
oops, that should be, Pakistanis, please ignore # 239!
#240 Posted by KaalChakra on September 15, 2007 6:44:00 pm
ts and other Pakistanis, please ignore # 238. I am just trying to explain to my Hindu friends that inauthenticity and dishonesty does not help, even if it is meant to promote 'brotherhood.' It does not work over the long haul.
#239 Posted by KaalChakra on September 15, 2007 6:41:10 pm
Jayp and chaltahai, I had decided to not raise this here, but it might help. Hopefully it will not be misunderstood.
Do you know that Jinnah, the skilled promoter of TNT that Jayp does not much appreciate, and which is as far from zen doctrins as any idea can possibly be, was a follower/worshipper of Vishnu?
Yes, the same Hindu God Vishnu, that you and I know about?
Do you know that Jinnah, the skilled promoter of TNT that Jayp does not much appreciate, and which is as far from zen doctrins as any idea can possibly be, was a follower/worshipper of Vishnu?
Yes, the same Hindu God Vishnu, that you and I know about?
#238 Posted by thinkingstorm on September 15, 2007 6:41:02 pm
Naqsh,
Thanks for your referrals, but I no longer believe in sufism. Thanks to you.
Notice that I am not full of praise for you and asking Allah to douse you with perfume either.
Your loss buddy. Could have had a really cool student to proliferate your views. I was even willing to be brainwashed and become gentleMindlessBreeze instead of ThinkingStorm.
Oh well.
To each his own.
with much respect,
thinking storm
Thanks for your referrals, but I no longer believe in sufism. Thanks to you.
Notice that I am not full of praise for you and asking Allah to douse you with perfume either.
Your loss buddy. Could have had a really cool student to proliferate your views. I was even willing to be brainwashed and become gentleMindlessBreeze instead of ThinkingStorm.
Oh well.
To each his own.
with much respect,
thinking storm
#237 Posted by nb on September 15, 2007 5:39:06 pm
Re: # 6
I remember Sabah Khaleeli who was a model.Their mother married a Hinjoooo conman who killed her and buried her in the garden.Anyone else remember?
I remember Sabah Khaleeli who was a model.Their mother married a Hinjoooo conman who killed her and buried her in the garden.Anyone else remember?
#236 Posted by jayp on September 15, 2007 5:27:34 pm
Kaal,
I have read a few of sufi stories, teh equivalents of Koan in zen budhism. The point is that sufis are enlightened men, and to that extend I do not think that they distinguish between religions. The problem comes only when the book is said to contain all the truths and other religious people are to be killed. In modern times this view of islam is the created by jinnah with his TNT and that is why pakistan is the centre of terrorists. The sufis did not and were not the interpreters of teh book, at least jihad as we know it, which is a pure pak creation. The taliban is essentially the TNT notion expanded in a global sense, and that is why the budha statues that survived the gaznis and lodhis are being destroyed in pakistan.
In conclusion, sufis predate pakistan and should be kosher, not halal.
I have read a few of sufi stories, teh equivalents of Koan in zen budhism. The point is that sufis are enlightened men, and to that extend I do not think that they distinguish between religions. The problem comes only when the book is said to contain all the truths and other religious people are to be killed. In modern times this view of islam is the created by jinnah with his TNT and that is why pakistan is the centre of terrorists. The sufis did not and were not the interpreters of teh book, at least jihad as we know it, which is a pure pak creation. The taliban is essentially the TNT notion expanded in a global sense, and that is why the budha statues that survived the gaznis and lodhis are being destroyed in pakistan.
In conclusion, sufis predate pakistan and should be kosher, not halal.
#235 Posted by Naqshbandi on September 15, 2007 4:55:39 pm
the way to paradise is the Prophet. There is no other way.
Ba Khuda khuda ka yehi hai dar, nahin aur koii mafar maqar//
Jo wahan ka ho tau yehen aakar ho, jo yahan nahin tau wahan nahin!
Ba Khuda khuda ka yehi hai dar, nahin aur koii mafar maqar//
Jo wahan ka ho tau yehen aakar ho, jo yahan nahin tau wahan nahin!
#234 Posted by chaltahai on September 15, 2007 4:02:56 pm
Kaal writes:"masadi, as far as I can see, sufism is not much more than people worship, as you mentioned. It is about creating excessive, maudlin "LOVE" for "exalted" individuals (not any principles, independent of Islam or Hinduism) so people can be influenced in given ways, and their desire to question is simply eradicated.
Since most people on earth tend to respect others for various reasons, they become unwitting victims."
I find this concept of sufism or the view of kaal quit funny. By extending the nature of islam and declawing all the nastiness out of the religion, sufis actually make it more palatable to others. The desire to question is actually increased and if it takes "love" for the sufi as great as the love for the god, then it is a good thing. Desire to question is something that religon at its very basis tries to limit or as int he case of islam..completely eradicate. Faith is blind and it is good per islam. How does one question that if you get your mandates from this logic.
Since most people on earth tend to respect others for various reasons, they become unwitting victims."
I find this concept of sufism or the view of kaal quit funny. By extending the nature of islam and declawing all the nastiness out of the religion, sufis actually make it more palatable to others. The desire to question is actually increased and if it takes "love" for the sufi as great as the love for the god, then it is a good thing. Desire to question is something that religon at its very basis tries to limit or as int he case of islam..completely eradicate. Faith is blind and it is good per islam. How does one question that if you get your mandates from this logic.
#233 Posted by tahmed32 on September 15, 2007 3:50:48 pm
Naqshbandi #232: but thinkingstorm is not in pakistan, or europe, or the us. he is on chowk. why dont you be his guide. Show him the way to paradise.
#232 Posted by Naqshbandi on September 15, 2007 3:13:31 pm
thinkingstorm,
even though you've been mocking me with your false praise i am not worthy of guiding anyone-- i am worried about my own soul.
mujhe yeh fikr hai ke meri inteha kyaa hai!
but if you're serious about finding a sufi teacher i can perhaps recommend someone. it depends on where you are living.
if you're in pakistan i would recommend hazrat qibla abu bilal muhammad ilyaas qadri if karachi.
if you're in europe i would say mawlana shaykh nazim al haqqani al qibrisi naqshbandi.
if you're in india i would say hazrat shaykh al islam muhammad madani miyan ashrafi jilani kichauchavi.
if you're in the USA i'd recommend mawlana shaykh muhammad hisham kabbani al naqshbandi.
if you#re in the middle east i would recommend hazrat shaykh sayyid habib ali al jifri of hadramawt yemen.
of course in each of these places there are many other shuyukh to choose from.
even though you've been mocking me with your false praise i am not worthy of guiding anyone-- i am worried about my own soul.
mujhe yeh fikr hai ke meri inteha kyaa hai!
but if you're serious about finding a sufi teacher i can perhaps recommend someone. it depends on where you are living.
if you're in pakistan i would recommend hazrat qibla abu bilal muhammad ilyaas qadri if karachi.
if you're in europe i would say mawlana shaykh nazim al haqqani al qibrisi naqshbandi.
if you're in india i would say hazrat shaykh al islam muhammad madani miyan ashrafi jilani kichauchavi.
if you're in the USA i'd recommend mawlana shaykh muhammad hisham kabbani al naqshbandi.
if you#re in the middle east i would recommend hazrat shaykh sayyid habib ali al jifri of hadramawt yemen.
of course in each of these places there are many other shuyukh to choose from.
#231 Posted by thinkingstorm on September 15, 2007 1:28:12 pm
gentle readers,
I must sadly announce that due to neglect by the teacher, I have decided to abandon my quest to have Naqshbandi take me under his wings.
I should be sad, for I pursued this quest for quite some time (2 weeks). However, I have come to see the error of my ways. Naqsh is no wali!
I would also like to take the opportunity to announce my own path: the almost secularist muslim.
I will communicate more to you as God sends me messages on what to do next. Live well my gentle readers.
with much respect,
thinking storm
I must sadly announce that due to neglect by the teacher, I have decided to abandon my quest to have Naqshbandi take me under his wings.
I should be sad, for I pursued this quest for quite some time (2 weeks). However, I have come to see the error of my ways. Naqsh is no wali!
I would also like to take the opportunity to announce my own path: the almost secularist muslim.
I will communicate more to you as God sends me messages on what to do next. Live well my gentle readers.
with much respect,
thinking storm
#230 Posted by Urstruly on September 15, 2007 12:01:26 pm
Re: # 229 Further
and look at the fact that about even today i.e. well after over hundered years of that debate several Muslims on this website alone believe that Pir Sahib actually would have levitated the pen or would have survived a jump from the minaret of badshahi mosque. Such powerful his bluff was.
But don't take me wrong, I do belive in miracles and karamat. As I wrote earlier the ESP phenomenon such as mind over matter and hypnosis to make someone actually belive that he just saw someone jumping from a minaret and then surviving it, is not only possible, but it is a recorded fact. People have made statute of liberty disappear.
and look at the fact that about even today i.e. well after over hundered years of that debate several Muslims on this website alone believe that Pir Sahib actually would have levitated the pen or would have survived a jump from the minaret of badshahi mosque. Such powerful his bluff was.
But don't take me wrong, I do belive in miracles and karamat. As I wrote earlier the ESP phenomenon such as mind over matter and hypnosis to make someone actually belive that he just saw someone jumping from a minaret and then surviving it, is not only possible, but it is a recorded fact. People have made statute of liberty disappear.
#229 Posted by Urstruly on September 15, 2007 11:54:18 am
Re: # 224 Manto:
You have to go back to Dawa's original post that describes what transpired between Pir Mehr Ali Shah Sahib and Mirza Sahib. Please note that the basic premise for the contest in both cases i.e. writing the best tafseer and doing something incredible was initiated and proposed by Mirza Sahib himself. Pir Sahib only responded to his cahllenge not only in agreement but upped the ante as well. I think it was pretty intense poker on Pir Sahib's part and Mirza sahib just couldn't call his bluff. This is what I call one heck of a debate.
You have to go back to Dawa's original post that describes what transpired between Pir Mehr Ali Shah Sahib and Mirza Sahib. Please note that the basic premise for the contest in both cases i.e. writing the best tafseer and doing something incredible was initiated and proposed by Mirza Sahib himself. Pir Sahib only responded to his cahllenge not only in agreement but upped the ante as well. I think it was pretty intense poker on Pir Sahib's part and Mirza sahib just couldn't call his bluff. This is what I call one heck of a debate.
#228 Posted by KaalChakra on September 15, 2007 11:25:46 am
Jayp bhai, you seem to hold that sufism believes in even stuff such as reincarnation, as YOU understand it.
I profoundly disagree. May I please request you to go back and re-read whatever you may have read about sufism's faith in re-incarnation. It SIMPLY CANNOT be identical to yours. Or Sufism will lose all connection to Islam - it's ONLY justification.
If you do undertake that excercise, please share whether you agree with my assessment: Sufism is a purely fraudulent doctrine, thriving on ambiguity, deception, and people's unwillingness to ask necessary questions.
Chances are that a sufi "thinker" who tells you (a Hindu) that he believes in/accepts reincarnation will, as certainly as night comes after day, switch words here and there to deceive you into beliefs that are totally alien to reincarnation (or any other concept) that may be valuable to you.
One suspects you are seeing your familiar Yogis in these sufis. The two have nothing in common except looks and some words that sufis pick up.
-----------------
masadi, as far as I can see, sufism is not much more than people worship, as you mentioned. It is about creating excessive, maudlin "LOVE" for "exalted" individuals (not any principles, independent of Islam or Hinduism) so people can be influenced in given ways, and their desire to question is simply eradicated.
Since most people on earth tend to respect others for various reasons, they become unwitting victims.
I profoundly disagree. May I please request you to go back and re-read whatever you may have read about sufism's faith in re-incarnation. It SIMPLY CANNOT be identical to yours. Or Sufism will lose all connection to Islam - it's ONLY justification.
If you do undertake that excercise, please share whether you agree with my assessment: Sufism is a purely fraudulent doctrine, thriving on ambiguity, deception, and people's unwillingness to ask necessary questions.
Chances are that a sufi "thinker" who tells you (a Hindu) that he believes in/accepts reincarnation will, as certainly as night comes after day, switch words here and there to deceive you into beliefs that are totally alien to reincarnation (or any other concept) that may be valuable to you.
One suspects you are seeing your familiar Yogis in these sufis. The two have nothing in common except looks and some words that sufis pick up.
-----------------
masadi, as far as I can see, sufism is not much more than people worship, as you mentioned. It is about creating excessive, maudlin "LOVE" for "exalted" individuals (not any principles, independent of Islam or Hinduism) so people can be influenced in given ways, and their desire to question is simply eradicated.
Since most people on earth tend to respect others for various reasons, they become unwitting victims.
#227 Posted by masadi on September 15, 2007 11:17:53 am
my previous post was cut off and "filtered", this is the entire post
Tales are tales of course, a new invention, a kind of people worship by those that tried to "religionize" Islam's rational outlook, invented to literally put the Quran on the backburner or on the top of a piece of furniture reaching to the skies so access to it is near impossible except as sacred item that by its touch (not by the meaning of its content) is supposed to bring safety and blessings. All that in an attempt to hold tradition and custom over enlightenment of the mind and thus bring to naught the entire purpose of the Quran- challenging people's irrational traditions and beliefs and thus freeing their mind of superstition.
As was expected, amidst all this tale mongering we forget the real purpose behind Ramadan:
"O you who believe, fasting is prescribed for you (as a cure), as it was prescribed for those before you so that you might become socially conscious...Ramadan is the month in which was sent down the Quran, as a guidance for humankind and as clear signposts of the guidance and the Criterion" (Quran 2:183-185)
When I was talking to a reporter from the Springfield News Leader about the "exotic" Ramadan tradition in Islam in 1993, I was asked about the tales that were behind this tradition. I was happy to inform the reporter that we fast in Islam because the Quran says it makes us more socially conscious. If you experience hunger and thirst and other deprivation first hand (be it out of choice) you become more responsive to the plight of the tens of millions of others who face such deprivation through no choice of their own, due to the workings of an unjust socio-economic system. The other purpose behind Ramadan fasting is to cleanse your mind of the garbage that a legitimating ideology has spread in a society, through which it perpetuates just such deprivation and that is done through the rationality, reason and the mind-freeing techniques involved in a careful study of the Quran, the "criterion" so to speak....
Tales are tales of course, a new invention, a kind of people worship by those that tried to "religionize" Islam's rational outlook, invented to literally put the Quran on the backburner or on the top of a piece of furniture reaching to the skies so access to it is near impossible except as sacred item that by its touch (not by the meaning of its content) is supposed to bring safety and blessings. All that in an attempt to hold tradition and custom over enlightenment of the mind and thus bring to naught the entire purpose of the Quran- challenging people's irrational traditions and beliefs and thus freeing their mind of superstition.
As was expected, amidst all this tale mongering we forget the real purpose behind Ramadan:
"O you who believe, fasting is prescribed for you (as a cure), as it was prescribed for those before you so that you might become socially conscious...Ramadan is the month in which was sent down the Quran, as a guidance for humankind and as clear signposts of the guidance and the Criterion" (Quran 2:183-185)
When I was talking to a reporter from the Springfield News Leader about the "exotic" Ramadan tradition in Islam in 1993, I was asked about the tales that were behind this tradition. I was happy to inform the reporter that we fast in Islam because the Quran says it makes us more socially conscious. If you experience hunger and thirst and other deprivation first hand (be it out of choice) you become more responsive to the plight of the tens of millions of others who face such deprivation through no choice of their own, due to the workings of an unjust socio-economic system. The other purpose behind Ramadan fasting is to cleanse your mind of the garbage that a legitimating ideology has spread in a society, through which it perpetuates just such deprivation and that is done through the rationality, reason and the mind-freeing techniques involved in a careful study of the Quran, the "criterion" so to speak....
#226 Posted by masadi on September 15, 2007 11:08:05 am
Tales are tales of course, a new invention, a kind of people worship by those that tried to "religionize" Islam's rational outlook, invented to literally put the Quran on the backburner or on the top of a piece of furniture reaching to the skies so access to it is near impossible except as sacred item that by its touch (not by the meaning of its content) is supposed to bring safety and blessings. All that in an attempt to hold tradition and custom over enlightenment of the mind and thus bring to naught the entire purpose of the Quran- challenging people's irrational traditions and beliefs and thus freeing their mind of superstition.
As was expected, amidst all this tale mongering we forget the real purpose behind Ramadan:
![]()
As was expected, amidst all this tale mongering we forget the real purpose behind Ramadan:
#225 Posted by tahmed32 on September 15, 2007 9:41:06 am
hamidm: By providing the standard line of christian mullahs who seek to define Islam as having roots in - horrors! - polytheism, I see you are inspired by christian mullahs, not from muslim mullahs like urstruly or hindu mullahs like jayp.
Common sense, of course, would tell you that monotheism is such a central aspect of Islam that it doesnt matter if there was a pre-Islamic god of the name allah. Common sense would also tell you that christianity and judaism also have roots in earlier polytheistic traditions.
But dont listen to me, since fresh air is bad for closed minds.
Common sense, of course, would tell you that monotheism is such a central aspect of Islam that it doesnt matter if there was a pre-Islamic god of the name allah. Common sense would also tell you that christianity and judaism also have roots in earlier polytheistic traditions.
But dont listen to me, since fresh air is bad for closed minds.
#224 Posted by MantoLives on September 15, 2007 9:30:58 am
Re: # 84 (and 104)
Dear Urstruly,
I have considered both your posts and the conclusion you are drawing from it and I am afraid I cannot agree with this conclusion.
Where does it follow that Mirza actually agreed to the Pir's line of argument?
Dear Urstruly,
I have considered both your posts and the conclusion you are drawing from it and I am afraid I cannot agree with this conclusion.
Where does it follow that Mirza actually agreed to the Pir's line of argument?
#223 Posted by hamidm2 on September 15, 2007 8:37:16 am
Re: # 221
no ... i meant al-lah mian and his daughters lat bibi, manat begum and miss uzza
no ... i meant al-lah mian and his daughters lat bibi, manat begum and miss uzza
#222 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 8:13:58 am
Re: # 217 nope..its already written on paklinks...so copy from that...
#221 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 8:13:09 am
Re: # 219 what moon god......
cheti chand ..you mean ????
cheti chand ..you mean ????
#220 Posted by tahmed32 on September 15, 2007 6:35:41 am
hamidm: and what goes of your respected buzurgs if dawa behen puts down 80 posts at the rate of a post a minute?
i should add that ms. dawa is also good enough to explain that the secret of her high speed posting, namely cut-and-paste?
i should add that ms. dawa is also good enough to explain that the secret of her high speed posting, namely cut-and-paste?
#219 Posted by hamidm2 on September 15, 2007 5:53:18 am
..... dawa seems to be the islamic version of "girls gone wild!" ........... what a looney tune !......... a bride for masadi ? ..... or maybe a cnadidate for zeemax's extended harem ........
........ this ramadhan thing seems to be driving the faithful over the edge ..... may the moon god and his daughters have mercy on us !
#218 Posted by zeemax on September 15, 2007 5:03:23 am
#216 Posted by dawa-i-dil,
No you can divide it in Part-1, 2 & so forth in a series of articles ... it would be great !!!
No you can divide it in Part-1, 2 & so forth in a series of articles ... it would be great !!!
#217 Posted by tahmed32 on September 15, 2007 4:56:20 am
dawa bibi: you are giving us recycled material? :-(
#216 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 4:53:36 am
zeemax...its so long taht chowk have to developed special page which can tolearte all this long stuff...
#215 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 4:51:51 am
LOL..actually... my speed is 2 pots / hours..all this is already written stuff on different sites by me..just copy pasted it..hehehe
#214 Posted by zeemax on September 15, 2007 4:49:07 am
#213 Posted by tahmed32,
The only explanation is that dawa behen has it written and compiled before hand, and posts paras one by one!
C'mon dawa-e-dil ... please post the entire collection as an FP article, because reading post by post breaks the flow !!!
The only explanation is that dawa behen has it written and compiled before hand, and posts paras one by one!
C'mon dawa-e-dil ... please post the entire collection as an FP article, because reading post by post breaks the flow !!!
#213 Posted by tahmed32 on September 15, 2007 4:46:26 am
zeemax: if you look at the timestamps, she posted these 80 posts in 1 hour. That makes it more than a post a minute. Truly Dawa behen is the supersonic jet among all us bullock carts on chowk!! Takbeer!!
#212 Posted by zeemax on September 15, 2007 4:42:36 am
#210 Posted by tahmed32.
tahmed32, I'm totally mystified how dawa behen can type so fast as to let anyone's post slip in between her prolific own!
tahmed32, I'm totally mystified how dawa behen can type so fast as to let anyone's post slip in between her prolific own!
#211 Posted by zeemax on September 15, 2007 4:40:55 am
#40 Posted by Naqshbandi
Wahabism: that sect of Muslims who follow the teachings of Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahab of Najd, Arabia--an 18th century preacher who was condemned by all the Islamic scholars throughout the world starting with his own brother, Shaykh Sulayman ibn Abd al Wahab. He condemnded largely the previous 1200 years of Islamic learning and scholarship and condemned most Muslims as polytheists and kafirs--except those who followed him of course.
Thanks Naqshbandi for the detailed response. But you missed mentioning if he rejected 1200 years of learning, what did he advocate to be followed instead? That was my question.
Thanks again for further clarification.
Wahabism: that sect of Muslims who follow the teachings of Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahab of Najd, Arabia--an 18th century preacher who was condemned by all the Islamic scholars throughout the world starting with his own brother, Shaykh Sulayman ibn Abd al Wahab. He condemnded largely the previous 1200 years of Islamic learning and scholarship and condemned most Muslims as polytheists and kafirs--except those who followed him of course.
Thanks Naqshbandi for the detailed response. But you missed mentioning if he rejected 1200 years of learning, what did he advocate to be followed instead? That was my question.
Thanks again for further clarification.
#210 Posted by tahmed32 on September 15, 2007 4:32:25 am
dawa-i-dil posts #120 - #201: dawa behen, that is about 80 posts in a row you have written, thus beating your own previous record.
#209 Posted by tahmed32 on September 15, 2007 4:26:12 am
jayp: Insane asylum inmates are meant to be observed and their behavior commented on by others, but they dont start explaining their behavior much less calling it "profane" for anyone to comment on it. So dont start explaining why sacrificing goats can help make planes fly, and dont start calling it "profane".
#208 Posted by zeemax on September 15, 2007 4:23:54 am
#203 Posted by jayp,
It was $250,000 apiece. But there's no accounting of the ones which are claimed to have been blown up at Ojhri camp.
It was $250,000 apiece. But there's no accounting of the ones which are claimed to have been blown up at Ojhri camp.
#205 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 2:38:19 am
thankyou asif sahab....
i will mail you..
found this good article ...
http://www.jamatuddawa.org/marsad/jul07/mujjul07/sufiizam.htm
i will mail you..
found this good article ...
http://www.jamatuddawa.org/marsad/jul07/mujjul07/sufiizam.htm
#204 Posted by Naqshbandi on September 15, 2007 2:16:00 am
great series of posts dawa sahiba but please say what you want in fewer and longer posts.
i agree with almost everything you've written and about the need for tolerance in the ummah for other points of view but sadly the extremists will not budge. you can quote another 50 of the great scholars but for some we will always be ahl al bida' and 'grave-worshippers' astaghfirullah.
Ya Ghawth al Azam!
p.s. please email me. asifjuk@gmail.com
jazak allahu khayran
i agree with almost everything you've written and about the need for tolerance in the ummah for other points of view but sadly the extremists will not budge. you can quote another 50 of the great scholars but for some we will always be ahl al bida' and 'grave-worshippers' astaghfirullah.
Ya Ghawth al Azam!
p.s. please email me. asifjuk@gmail.com
jazak allahu khayran
#203 Posted by jayp on September 15, 2007 1:54:24 am
Zeemax,
My understanding is that all stingers have been bought back by the yanks for a million dollars a piece.
My understanding is that all stingers have been bought back by the yanks for a million dollars a piece.
#202 Posted by jayp on September 15, 2007 1:53:37 am
Kaalchakra, tahmed etc.
The profound topic of sufism, the japanese equivalent of zen budhism, has been degenrated into teh profane, with the talk of the flight of the deboned chicken and napalese aircraft.
The fact is that if a sufi wants a chicken, deboned or otherwise to fly, he can do it. The question is having realised the ultimate truth, will he be interested in the plight or the flight of a chicken, what could be its relevance to the larger issues. It is unlikely that any sufi will do anything as a challenge.
This whole issue of doing what is deemed magical and its link to enlightenment is probably the work of the religious fraudsters and organised religions, like catholisism which needs miracles befor some one is made a saint.
In the budhist and hindu traditions, what the society thinks of is utmost irrelevance to a sage, and it is unlikely that any sufi or a sage will do anything to prove a point to teh society, for what, to earn money, to get recognition!!!!
Now here is a sufi thought for any one. It has been scientifically shown that at the molecular level, 99percent of the human body is not more than 7 years old, that human body is in state of flux of material that earlier belonged to plants animals and inanimates.
In thsi world view, all things remain in that particular for for some time and transforms into something else. That is as long as say for a human, the life force is there, the material flow manifests as human, and vanishes when the "soul" leaves, and may reincarnates as something else.
The profound topic of sufism, the japanese equivalent of zen budhism, has been degenrated into teh profane, with the talk of the flight of the deboned chicken and napalese aircraft.
The fact is that if a sufi wants a chicken, deboned or otherwise to fly, he can do it. The question is having realised the ultimate truth, will he be interested in the plight or the flight of a chicken, what could be its relevance to the larger issues. It is unlikely that any sufi will do anything as a challenge.
This whole issue of doing what is deemed magical and its link to enlightenment is probably the work of the religious fraudsters and organised religions, like catholisism which needs miracles befor some one is made a saint.
In the budhist and hindu traditions, what the society thinks of is utmost irrelevance to a sage, and it is unlikely that any sufi or a sage will do anything to prove a point to teh society, for what, to earn money, to get recognition!!!!
Now here is a sufi thought for any one. It has been scientifically shown that at the molecular level, 99percent of the human body is not more than 7 years old, that human body is in state of flux of material that earlier belonged to plants animals and inanimates.
In thsi world view, all things remain in that particular for for some time and transforms into something else. That is as long as say for a human, the life force is there, the material flow manifests as human, and vanishes when the "soul" leaves, and may reincarnates as something else.
#201 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:45:14 am
which they follow...mere words of Bukhari...and neglecting the ASOOL on which 4 greatest fuqhas developed the whole system of Fiqah.....
just reading from Bukhari and quran...and giving fatwa is just kidding......
the 4 imams and thier thousands of students and scholars throughout 1200 yeras cannot be on wrong path...never ever.....
just reading from Bukhari and quran...and giving fatwa is just kidding......
the 4 imams and thier thousands of students and scholars throughout 1200 yeras cannot be on wrong path...never ever.....
#200 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:44:29 am
they think...only they are right rest are deviated and "taqleed" is haram...while they themselves do taqleed of ahmed bin hanbal....ibne tamiyya and Albani...etc....
they are not "ONLY" scholars.....the greater work in whole islamic history is done by non-arabs...not these arabs.... and they have no right to "Impose" their version of islam on 85 % majority who love and respect and follow 4 imams....
they are not "ONLY" scholars.....the greater work in whole islamic history is done by non-arabs...not these arabs.... and they have no right to "Impose" their version of islam on 85 % majority who love and respect and follow 4 imams....
#199 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:43:32 am
neither i will blindly follow the Ibne Tamiyya...and Ibne Jauzzia.......
neither i will say that Abu Hanifa is not Imam Azam...Imam Azam was prophet(pbuh)....just a funny point......is there any comparison between a nabi and a ummati !!!!!!
neithet i will say to any person that since you do not do Rafa Yadain and Ameen Biljahar..... so you whole Namaz is wasted ..and also previous all namazs....
neither i will call a woman who do not take the Niqaab of face that she is not observing purda......
neither i will blindly follow the fatawas of Ibne Baaz...although we all respect them..but not blindly......
neither i will issue the kufr fawas on Ashraf Ali Thanvi...Ahmed Raza Khan Brelvi ...and Maulana Maudoodi......(have arbs in 200 years produced such great scholars)
neither i will rank my prophet(pbuh) just as my "Elder Brother".......
neither i will support the "extremist jihadi " version of islam...which by large is bringing destruction is Iraq...and Pakistan also.....
neither i will say to any sect and school of thought that only "Ahle Hadees" are 1 sect ...rest all are 72 sects ..which will go to hell by hadees.....
etc etc .....
neither i will say that Abu Hanifa is not Imam Azam...Imam Azam was prophet(pbuh)....just a funny point......is there any comparison between a nabi and a ummati !!!!!!
neithet i will say to any person that since you do not do Rafa Yadain and Ameen Biljahar..... so you whole Namaz is wasted ..and also previous all namazs....
neither i will call a woman who do not take the Niqaab of face that she is not observing purda......
neither i will blindly follow the fatawas of Ibne Baaz...although we all respect them..but not blindly......
neither i will issue the kufr fawas on Ashraf Ali Thanvi...Ahmed Raza Khan Brelvi ...and Maulana Maudoodi......(have arbs in 200 years produced such great scholars)
neither i will rank my prophet(pbuh) just as my "Elder Brother".......
neither i will support the "extremist jihadi " version of islam...which by large is bringing destruction is Iraq...and Pakistan also.....
neither i will say to any sect and school of thought that only "Ahle Hadees" are 1 sect ...rest all are 72 sects ..which will go to hell by hadees.....
etc etc .....
#198 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:43:02 am
neither i will accept that hadees which is considered as true by "ONLY" Albani.......all great muhadiseen are not psycho !!!!
neither ...i have a habbit of calling people deviated...by just difference of opinion.....
neither ...i will ridicule the great sufia of islam...through which the isl;am spreaded in most of the parts......
neither ...i have a habbit of calling people deviated...by just difference of opinion.....
neither ...i will ridicule the great sufia of islam...through which the isl;am spreaded in most of the parts......
#197 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:42:38 am
But i will not stand with those who have a "conservative" and "hard core"
attitude towards 4 greatest faqeehs of 1400 yeras...and thousands of great scholars accepted thier knowledge...greatness...and wisdom..they are not mad..fool...and ignorant.....who has the courage to challenge thier intellect !!!!!
attitude towards 4 greatest faqeehs of 1400 yeras...and thousands of great scholars accepted thier knowledge...greatness...and wisdom..they are not mad..fool...and ignorant.....who has the courage to challenge thier intellect !!!!!
#196 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:42:02 am
for example...you can oppose the scholar like Syed Maudoodi in 1 issue..10 issues...100 issues......but if someone says he is deviated person ....i think he is the most foolish and deviated himself.......can you challenge his rest of wisdom..intellect and his whole life deeds for islam...how shameful is that on 1 or 2 point difference....one should negate his whole life hard work....
similarly ......in case of 4 greatest faqeeh...you can oppose them in various issues...but if someone says that they are wrong...then he should have his mental check up !!!!!!!
similarly ......in case of 4 greatest faqeeh...you can oppose them in various issues...but if someone says that they are wrong...then he should have his mental check up !!!!!!!
#195 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:41:30 am
beleive me..i am not saying you or anyother ahle hadees....but just pointing out that this attitude....according to my little knowledge,...against the great fuqhas...and sufis...and prophet(pbuh) is not suitable....
and that anothger reason....saudia ulemas ,most of the time do "Taqleed" of Imam Ahmed Bin Hanbal...or Ibne Jauziyya or Ibne Tammiyya....!!!!!
and that anothger reason....saudia ulemas ,most of the time do "Taqleed" of Imam Ahmed Bin Hanbal...or Ibne Jauziyya or Ibne Tammiyya....!!!!!
#194 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:41:10 am
greatest 4 faqeehs of all times...salif salihoon are not mad...foolish and ignorant....they were best people as they were near the age of prophet(pobuh) as in hadees.....
neither all sufis are deviated as usually quoted by ahl;e hadees scholars....our whole Pakistan and india religion will be in hindus part if there were not these sufis !!!!!!!!
neither all sufis are deviated as usually quoted by ahl;e hadees scholars....our whole Pakistan and india religion will be in hindus part if there were not these sufis !!!!!!!!
#193 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:40:48 am
Just fighting the whole life that who do Rafa Yadain and who donot...who say Ameen Biljafhar and who do not........just bring hatred in the society.....
Its not necessary that what Albani considered any hadees false..its actually false...its blind following of l;bani...whyn not people do this research to find which Asnaad are more true and other way round....
Its not necessary that what Albani considered any hadees false..its actually false...its blind following of l;bani...whyn not people do this research to find which Asnaad are more true and other way round....
#192 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:40:34 am
yes Bukhari is great book...but everything is not Bukhari...everything is not Bukahari...everything is not Bukhari.....
there are also other books which are of ahadees....Imam Bukhari was also human and definitely there are mistakes in Bukhari..its not quran.....so blindly follow it is also not acceptable.......
there are also other books which are of ahadees....Imam Bukhari was also human and definitely there are mistakes in Bukhari..its not quran.....so blindly follow it is also not acceptable.......
#191 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:40:17 am
its very long debate.....and out of topic....but just saying that "Taqleed" is haram .....Abu Hanifa fiqah is 70 % wrong...people blindly follow him...ridiculing the all sufis but just taking example of one and two sufis....etc etc......
i am sorry to say ...i will never ever rely on these foolish rulings ...i respect saudi ahle hadees and also pakistani ahle hadees scholars ...but thier "extremist" views in certainissues..i never ever accept that...they are not the care-takers of who is wrong and who is right......
i am sorry to say ...i will never ever rely on these foolish rulings ...i respect saudi ahle hadees and also pakistani ahle hadees scholars ...but thier "extremist" views in certainissues..i never ever accept that...they are not the care-takers of who is wrong and who is right......
#190 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:39:53 am
but it is totally wrong that by saying ..."only me right" and rest all are wrong..biddati...deviated.......not so far just see the example of Allahukbar .net.......this site even not spare...Maulana Maudoodi...you can differ with him..but plainly saying that you are deviated...who the hell given this power to select who is deviated and who is not....what "hardcore" version of islam they are spreading.......
#189 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:37:58 am
The world greatest salafi/ahle hadees site (islam-qa) clearly writes about the virtues and merits of 4 great imams but only says that do not follow them "blindly"....... as in quran that if you do not know something , ask from a person who knows it... so following any imam is the same thing... regarding the differences between 4 imams or hanafi or salafi schools of thought ... they are of .000000001significance ... rather i say no significance ... all have the same sources that is quran and hadees (6 and more books) and all the differences will be how you interprete , "istadlal" , "isthakrag" means "Deduction" from these sources ... which can be different or vary from imam to imam or from salafis ... but the "Frame of Reference" will always be same right from beginning to the qiyyamah , inshallah...They all have the the differences in the same circle of diameter of quran and 6 or more ahadees books and they will never cross the circumference of this circle all the minor differences will always occur in the same "Frame" not from outside...as in quran that these people will keep on differentiating as they are produced of differences... so differences are the basic characteristics of a human being and essence of a society... thet were , they are and they will remain.... but it will not change your deen or religion in any way.......
#188 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:36:39 am
y a political unity can take place between two main sects of islam.....shia and sunnis....yes ..it is a harsh reality that complete unity cannot... still political unity is far far difficult as history repeats itself and politically muslim history is full of betraying incidents ...i am sorry to say this but this is the bitter reality.......
kha khai jo teer daikha kameegah ki taraf
apnay hee dosto sai mulaqat ho gai
Yes ...allah almighty can create a miracle to unite muslims .politically and may allah do this ..... regardind other differences...these are not differences at all...rather no sects...these are schools of thoughts..no sects at all...the main sects are only two ..all other are schools of thoughts.....and this difference of opinion is a essence of the society as a hadees of prophet(pbuh) says....
Ikhtalafa-i- ummati rahmat
means the differenecs of my ummah is rehmat...
kha khai jo teer daikha kameegah ki taraf
apnay hee dosto sai mulaqat ho gai
Yes ...allah almighty can create a miracle to unite muslims .politically and may allah do this ..... regardind other differences...these are not differences at all...rather no sects...these are schools of thoughts..no sects at all...the main sects are only two ..all other are schools of thoughts.....and this difference of opinion is a essence of the society as a hadees of prophet(pbuh) says....
Ikhtalafa-i- ummati rahmat
means the differenecs of my ummah is rehmat...
#187 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:31:28 am
For them is their merit ,for us is our merit.....no problem but yes this is wrong if hadees quoted by a number of muhadiseen and generally consider as shaheeh , then a person not considering For thier it shaeeh is his personal opinion but he has no right to blame and taunt anyone that consider it shaeeh and i do agree that salafis are a bit staunch towards it ... i agree with you , they have no right to " command" anyone else , if they have a certain opinion about specifichadees , then Ok fine , but do not let other to follow you .............
#186 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:29:23 am
Allah will not ask me on day of judgement whether I have literally 2 hands , eyes or not !!!, i mean this thing is worthless to be consider but we keep our whole life in that .I once heard from my teacher regarding"Allah's throne" that it is an ayat " Mutashabiaa't" , so if we try to analyze it deeply, we will be in "fitna" ,So we have not hundreds but thousandsof common things and few controversial but our focus is always on these "few".......................
Brother regring Taqeed , i once again will say they never said that do not follow anyone but they say not blindly as i given in the above post from(islam-qa) site .....4 imams also follow quran and sunnah , so it is illogical to say that follow 4 imams or follow quran and sunnah are two differents things !!!!!!!!!.As i ask you are you muslim or Pakistani !!!!!!!!!
So these are incompatible things ................
Thirdly brother i agree with you 100% allama albani has regected a few hadees but brother again came the problem of point of view and merit , these hadees are not on his merit of shaheeh so he regected them as Imam Bukhari knew about 600,000 hadees and stated that i know more than 100,000 "shaeeh" hadees but quoted only 2513 in his book , why? because of his own merit ...... So if he rejected some his hadees so it was his merit , i do not think there is any objectionable thing about that......
Brother regring Taqeed , i once again will say they never said that do not follow anyone but they say not blindly as i given in the above post from(islam-qa) site .....4 imams also follow quran and sunnah , so it is illogical to say that follow 4 imams or follow quran and sunnah are two differents things !!!!!!!!!.As i ask you are you muslim or Pakistani !!!!!!!!!
So these are incompatible things ................
Thirdly brother i agree with you 100% allama albani has regected a few hadees but brother again came the problem of point of view and merit , these hadees are not on his merit of shaheeh so he regected them as Imam Bukhari knew about 600,000 hadees and stated that i know more than 100,000 "shaeeh" hadees but quoted only 2513 in his book , why? because of his own merit ...... So if he rejected some his hadees so it was his merit , i do not think there is any objectionable thing about that......
#184 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:28:14 am
Only that a person making hands at chest have no right to say anything to a person making hands a little below , similarly , a person making hands at belly has no right o say anything to a person which tie hands at chest etc etc....
Both have hadees in support although degree of shaheeh is different so these little things dose not matter , the thing that matters is this prayer abstain you from "munkir" and" fawahish" or not..................
Both have hadees in support although degree of shaheeh is different so these little things dose not matter , the thing that matters is this prayer abstain you from "munkir" and" fawahish" or not..................
#181 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:23:49 am
Answer from the wahabi opponent...
You do not seem to understand the situation here, once again i will have to repeat myself in saying the 4 Imams may hae had differences in Fiqh, but when it came to Aqeeda they were all unanimous!! The problem we have with salafi's is Aqeeda...this is the biggest problem. They hold a corrupt and Batil Aqeeda ''Aqeedat-il-Wasitiyyah'', which was done by a famous personality Ibn Taymiyah, thus this was refuted by many scholars in their thousands and it will still be refuted till the day of Judgement! For it gives literal meaning to Allah's being, in giving Allah(swt) a ''Form'', a literal ''Hand'. ''Eyes'', ''Shin'', ''Face'', ''Directions'' and also ''Settled on the throne'', which are all the attributes of Allah's creation!!! How can Allah have similar attribute as is creation? Have we not learnt that ''There is none like Him'' ???
Again, we have another problem with these Salafi deviants when it comes to Taqlid. They say 'You don't have to follow a Madhab'', which is a big problem. May scholars have made it Wajib to follow a Madhab, the one who doesnt follow a Madhab can be called, a person who is following his/her desires, an innovator (Mubta'di). Please read Mufti Taqi Usmani's ''The Legal Status of Following a Madhab'' - Ciick here to read the full book.
You do not seem to understand the situation here, once again i will have to repeat myself in saying the 4 Imams may hae had differences in Fiqh, but when it came to Aqeeda they were all unanimous!! The problem we have with salafi's is Aqeeda...this is the biggest problem. They hold a corrupt and Batil Aqeeda ''Aqeedat-il-Wasitiyyah'', which was done by a famous personality Ibn Taymiyah, thus this was refuted by many scholars in their thousands and it will still be refuted till the day of Judgement! For it gives literal meaning to Allah's being, in giving Allah(swt) a ''Form'', a literal ''Hand'. ''Eyes'', ''Shin'', ''Face'', ''Directions'' and also ''Settled on the throne'', which are all the attributes of Allah's creation!!! How can Allah have similar attribute as is creation? Have we not learnt that ''There is none like Him'' ???
Again, we have another problem with these Salafi deviants when it comes to Taqlid. They say 'You don't have to follow a Madhab'', which is a big problem. May scholars have made it Wajib to follow a Madhab, the one who doesnt follow a Madhab can be called, a person who is following his/her desires, an innovator (Mubta'di). Please read Mufti Taqi Usmani's ''The Legal Status of Following a Madhab'' - Ciick here to read the full book.
#180 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:22:17 am
And last thing brother are Abdul wahab or the aalim of the wahabi site(islam-qa) are 100% correct , no at all.No human being can be 100% right , if he is , the he has to be a rasool or nabi .The point is , why we keep on insistingthet a person should even be 100% right or 100% wrong !!!!!!!!!!!! Every human being , by its nature , have a tendecy of sin , faults and mistakes whether sahabas , tabai or aulias of Allah ,and they fell prey to them then why not abdul wahab or any other wahabi aalimis !!!!!!!!! why not shiekh abdul qadir jilani and others ,why not abu hanifa and imam shafi etc etc.
#179 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:21:35 am
Thirdly i want to say that Allah will ask from us on the day of judgement that how you offer prayer , namaz , roza , offer zakat , did hajj , helped poor , how you spent your youth , your old age , how you strive to spread islam ,how you fight against kufars , did you jihad against them , "huqooq -ul - ibad " the most .He will not ask us that , tell me whether you consider my prophet(peace be upon him) dead or alive and if you will not give the correct answer , i will put you to hell .Or neiher He will ask us whether Prophet(peace be upon him ) is noor or bashar , and giving wrong answer will lead you to hell, so brother , be calm and cool , these are minor thing , and insshallah they will not do any harm to our belief that " Allah is one and only , we worship him alone and Muhammad(peace be upon him) his last messenger and rasool" , This was what only taught by our beloved prophet(peace be upon him) and this is what only is asked on day of judgement.Inshallah.But we will use our whole of life on fighting on these worthless issues and drain our whole energies in this useless debate , not considering that poverty will lead to kufar as in hadees ,not consiering that a time will come when all other nations will fell upon you as some hungry fell on the meal as in hadees , but instead of fighting agaist these social , economical , socialogical,political and unity factors which our society in particular and muslim ummad in general are facing , we keep on fighting and dividing ourselves more and more.......................
#177 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:21:08 am
Thirdly it is a point of common sense that a " shaheed" died once but in grave he remains alive as in Quran, similarly , prophet(peace be upon him) also died as when hazrat abu bakr(ra) said this to umar(ra) when taking his sword in his hand , he was shouting that " whoever will say Muhammad(ppeace be upon him) died , i will kill him" , then abu bakr(ra) replied that " whoever worship Muhammad(peace be upon him) , he should recognize that he has died , and who worship Allah , he should recognize that Allah will never lick the taste of death" but after that he is alive , see if shaeed can be alive , a prophet cannot be !!!!!!!!!!!! As far prophet is thousands of time higher than a shaheed and prophet like Muhammad(peace be upon him) , the " sardar" of all prophets !!!!!!!!!.So brother , point is that we should be too too touchy or allergic about that.They have Quranic verse that every creature has to die and this is true , afterwards what happens , it is ALLAh "qudrat" to whome He gives life like shaheed or prophets or aulia or anyone else , this is His right and kingdom, we have not to worry about it.
#176 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:20:35 am
First i am sorry that the it was painful to use the word" stupidies" to the first replier , actually i use in the sense of differences not blaming any sect I myself sunni and hanafi, alhumdullilah , how can i critisize my own school of thought .Secondly to the respectful MMM, brother , it is our imaan that only "prophets" are " masooms" , anyone else whether sahaba , tabai , taba tabi , wali , aulia , pious people and imams of shias are not "masoom".It is our belief.No doubt about that shiek abdul qadir jilani is the "imam" of aulias , the greatest of all walis and get highest in"taqwa" and "piety" but brother he was not " masoom" so there are chances of mistakes and sins , as nature of a human being.So it is strange to me that how we react
so much on this point !
so much on this point !
#174 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:16:12 am
Allah will ask from us on the day of judgement that how you offer prayer , namaz , roza , offer zakat , did hajj , helped poor , how you spent your youth , your old age , how you strive to spread islam ,how you fight against kufars , did you jihad against them , "huqooq -ul - ibad " the most
.
He will not ask us that , tell me whether you consider My two hands literally or actually... and if you give wrong answer , you will go to hell......
.
He will not ask us that , tell me whether you consider My two hands literally or actually... and if you give wrong answer , you will go to hell......
#173 Posted by majumdar on September 15, 2007 12:15:25 am
Dawa behen,
Jee, main India mein rehta hoon.
Regards
Jee, main India mein rehta hoon.
Regards
#172 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:15:11 am
do not know about canada , but as far pakistan is concerned , there are a lot of salafi/wahabi which make a fun of sufis , sufism and imam abu haneefah, regarding sufis as innovators , sufism as nothing but a foolish practice and regardig abu haneefah that there are so large number of mistakes in his fiqah that you cannot follow him or other 3 schools of thoughts.So i give the 3 whole post from islam-qa , the pure wahabi/salafi and whose voice is considered as authority in saudi arabia and the whole islamic world that things are not so as they seems to be.I know its a bit tedious and difficult to go all through it but if i just gave the reference of site , hardly anyone actually wants to visit that sit and clear the misconceptions so its look better to me to copy and paste the whole 3 posts so thst readers conveniently on seeing the question , see the answers also , right below.
** also i want to tell salfis/ wahabis brothers and sisters is that we all as muslims consider the prayer the greatest pillar of islam but all that is not islam............. " rafay yadain , aameen bijahar and putting hands on chest "
and quarreliing upon these , wasting our energies and making foes instead of friends , that we do in whole of our life but keep our eyes close on our social , econimical , sociollogical issues and aspects of islam at all.Our islamic studies teacher , once teaching ous,told:
"""""""""""& amp; quot;""""""""""""&am p;qu ot;""""""""""""" ; ;"""""""""""" """""""""""""&a mp;q uot;""""""""""""& ;quo t;"""""""""" , you think islam starts when muslims enters mosque but believe me , its starts when they leave the mosque""""""""""""&a mp;q uot;""""""""
and this is what , i also believe....................
** also i want to tell salfis/ wahabis brothers and sisters is that we all as muslims consider the prayer the greatest pillar of islam but all that is not islam............. " rafay yadain , aameen bijahar and putting hands on chest "
and quarreliing upon these , wasting our energies and making foes instead of friends , that we do in whole of our life but keep our eyes close on our social , econimical , sociollogical issues and aspects of islam at all.Our islamic studies teacher , once teaching ous,told:
"""""""""""& amp; quot;""""""""""""&am p;qu ot;""""""""""""" ; ;"""""""""""" """""""""""""&a mp;q uot;""""""""""""& ;quo t;"""""""""" , you think islam starts when muslims enters mosque but believe me , its starts when they leave the mosque""""""""""""&a mp;q uot;""""""""
and this is what , i also believe....................
#171 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:13:24 am
am against only these differenes which we consider that " yaar pata nahin kitnay baray maslay masail hain " but if you anaylyze , in most cases , its like a situation like """ khoda pahar nikla chua"""" ......................... of no worth consideration .Its like you have to pass a matric or FSc. exams and instead of you go through the 10 or 11 chapters of the whole course , you start a topic of the least important chapter , having .00001% chance to come in the exams., and devote your whole time to it till say of exams come................ thats i personally think ..............
#170 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:12:47 am
i am not faqeeh means nor i read fuqah nor i am a scolar but the points raised are not so great only interpretation is different for example said that Ahle hadees recite Surah fatiha other not but here again come the same thing .According to hanafi and other school of thought , they take the ayat of quran( when quran is being recited , you should listen quitely) i do not rmember the ezxct but its like that.But ahle hadees take the hadees of Bukhari shareef ( there is no prayer in which Fatiha is not recited).So you see the only difference is the way we look upthe matter .Both of them have correct intention , both of them have good sound knowledge but their own "Ijtihad" not going away from sunnah and Quran. So the dispute dissolved automatically.Just take it as a man looking a sunlight from prism and by slightly changing the position , one see red , yellow , green blue violet and so on.So these colours are different but ultimately all they have the same root , the White colour.So my brother all is that .................................................. .................................................. ........................................... but we make a himalyaya of it !!!!!!!!!!!!
#169 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:12:31 am
Just look at this incident................
it is narrated that" when holy prophet(peace be upon him) ordered muslims to go to Khyber in 7 hijri , he told the sahaba not to put out their arms until reached Khyber so during thier way to Khyber time of Asr prayer came and some sahaba offered Asr prayer their while other group of sahaba said that prophet(peace be upon him) said not to put off arms until reach Khyber so they performed their ar prayer on reaching kyber.Now both groups came to prophet(peace be upon him) and asked which is wright or which group is wrong.The prophet(peace be upon him) answered that"Both are correct" as one intention is to offer prayer as commanment of Allah and other preffered my order but the intentions of both groups is correct ,only interpretaton of my saying looks different to both so both are correct
it is narrated that" when holy prophet(peace be upon him) ordered muslims to go to Khyber in 7 hijri , he told the sahaba not to put out their arms until reached Khyber so during thier way to Khyber time of Asr prayer came and some sahaba offered Asr prayer their while other group of sahaba said that prophet(peace be upon him) said not to put off arms until reach Khyber so they performed their ar prayer on reaching kyber.Now both groups came to prophet(peace be upon him) and asked which is wright or which group is wrong.The prophet(peace be upon him) answered that"Both are correct" as one intention is to offer prayer as commanment of Allah and other preffered my order but the intentions of both groups is correct ,only interpretaton of my saying looks different to both so both are correct
#168 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:10:39 am
Zina has exceeded to huge toll.Even in house there is zina of ears(music) , zina of eyes( wtching cable) , zina of hands( channel surfing and masturbation) , zina of feet ( to go to the places of crowded opposite gender), zina of heart ( the lustful thoughts) and the only thing remains whether you do it practically or not as in hadees.
But nobody take action against that .But ifsome one says i do prayer without ""rafa yadain""", uffffffffffffff.............. there come an earthquake ....................... "will you do not rafa yadain ", repeat all your prayers , all of your previous prayers are wrong............................................. .................................................. ..................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But nobody take action against that .But ifsome one says i do prayer without ""rafa yadain""", uffffffffffffff.............. there come an earthquake ....................... "will you do not rafa yadain ", repeat all your prayers , all of your previous prayers are wrong............................................. .................................................. ..................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#167 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:10:21 am
there are thousands of car leased from banks on the road as it is in quran that interest is like a war between alllah and his prophet(pbuh) and a pwerson who take or give interest.But no body cares . Our whole banking System based on interset, not even a single voice against that..............
***hadees says" ((((((when there is zina and sood(interest) in a society , then its means that this society has invited the "azab" of Allah )))
***hadees says" ((((((when there is zina and sood(interest) in a society , then its means that this society has invited the "azab" of Allah )))
#166 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:10:10 am
there are thousands of car leased from banks on the road as it is in quran that interest is like a war between alllah and his prophet(pbuh) and a pwerson who take or give interest.But no body cares . Our whole banking System based on interset, not even a single voice against that..............
***hadees says" ((((((when there is zina and sood(interest) in a society , then its means that this society has invited the "azab" of Allah )))
***hadees says" ((((((when there is zina and sood(interest) in a society , then its means that this society has invited the "azab" of Allah )))
#165 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:09:54 am
Remember the hadees of prophet(peace be upon him) that is ( the dispute between my ummah is also rahmat ) ...... but we make it a zahmat by our own attitudes and behaviours.
#164 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:09:23 am
agree but i have a little complaint againt salafis/wahabis that if they also listen to other views and points and not say that only we are right and everything else has deviated then , i think situation will become more pleasent , this is my personal opinion.I do not knoow what others think about that.
#163 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:08:59 am
in ghazva khundaq when in a crucial time , prophet(pbuh)wanted to sign aggrement with jews not to betray and in reward signed a truce to give some fruits farms of medina , sahabas like leaders of two ansari tribes hazrat ssad bin muaz and hazrat saad bin ubada (ra) asked prophet(pbuh) that is it from Allah and h replied not but my will the those two sahaba said ishallah Allah is with ous and we will be victorious so prophet asked the truce writer to give the truce to prophet (pbuh_ and saad bin muaz(ra) himself with his hands tore the the truce into pieces.
now see that the difference and even wityh a prophet(pbuh) but no one said anything and could say anything because it is approval of the prophet(peace be upon him)
now see that the difference and even wityh a prophet(pbuh) but no one said anything and could say anything because it is approval of the prophet(peace be upon him)
#162 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:08:44 am
can anybody tell me where is that "utopia" in which there is no differences ...........
**there is even differences between sahaba and the prophet(peace be upon him) on day of battle uhad , when prophet(PBUH) and seniour sahaba wanted to fight inside medina to use houses of medina as little forts but young youth with zeal and zest , disagreed and prophet(peace be upon him) accepted their view and went out in battle field.Now being after defeat and 70 sahaba shaheed , prophet(pbuh) never even said a single word aganist them.
**there is even differences between sahaba and the prophet(peace be upon him) on day of battle uhad , when prophet(PBUH) and seniour sahaba wanted to fight inside medina to use houses of medina as little forts but young youth with zeal and zest , disagreed and prophet(peace be upon him) accepted their view and went out in battle field.Now being after defeat and 70 sahaba shaheed , prophet(pbuh) never even said a single word aganist them.
#161 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:08:30 am
can anybody tell me where is that "utopia" in which there is no differences ...........
**there is even differences between sahaba and the prophet(peace be upon him) on day of battle uhad , when prophet(PBUH) and seniour sahaba wanted to fight inside medina to use houses of medina as little forts but young youth with zeal and zest , disagreed and prophet(peace be upon him) accepted their view and went out in battle field.Now being after defeat and 70 sahaba shaheed , prophet(pbuh) never even said a single word aganist them.
**there is even differences between sahaba and the prophet(peace be upon him) on day of battle uhad , when prophet(PBUH) and seniour sahaba wanted to fight inside medina to use houses of medina as little forts but young youth with zeal and zest , disagreed and prophet(peace be upon him) accepted their view and went out in battle field.Now being after defeat and 70 sahaba shaheed , prophet(pbuh) never even said a single word aganist them.
#160 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:08:11 am
there is big difference of opinion between all 4 schools of thought , but you will be surprised to know that imam shafi remained for 6 months in home of imam Shafi as his guset, in the same house, to learn hadees or i think even more time he spent there.
Similarly when somebody asked imam malik about imam abu haneefah , he said a historical line that " the power of his "istadlal" is so much that he can proove that the wooden made" mimbar of masjid_e_nabwi" is made of gold." What a great honour from one imam to the other , but we, as their followers, spent our whole life that in a particular matter whether imam shafi is more wright or imam abu haneefah and keep on quarreling and then atlast come the stage of (((((((( kharig_ul_diara_i_islam_)))))) or even more to " munafiq" "kafir" and ""wajibul qatal".
Similarly when somebody asked imam malik about imam abu haneefah , he said a historical line that " the power of his "istadlal" is so much that he can proove that the wooden made" mimbar of masjid_e_nabwi" is made of gold." What a great honour from one imam to the other , but we, as their followers, spent our whole life that in a particular matter whether imam shafi is more wright or imam abu haneefah and keep on quarreling and then atlast come the stage of (((((((( kharig_ul_diara_i_islam_)))))) or even more to " munafiq" "kafir" and ""wajibul qatal".
#159 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:07:45 am
if J J Thomson not negate the atomic theory of Dalton , if Rutterford do not done it to Thomson , If Neil Bohr do not done it again to Ruttherford , can we all be in this nuclear age or can Pakistan be a nuclear power , certainly not.
Still thomson bohr and ruttherford all had very good relations among them till their death, will they call each other "kafir' and like that ???????????
Still thomson bohr and ruttherford all had very good relations among them till their death, will they call each other "kafir' and like that ???????????
#158 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:07:28 am
the point is to be noted taht that difference is the essence of a civilized and growing society.Is their ny more precious relationship as between a child or a mother but there are a lot differences in them but will they fight over this , no... two brothers one wants to se soccer match other likes cricket, one siister likes" dal chawal" while other sister eats "Biryani".Now all of them fight over this , not at all.
Actually difference give new ways , open new horizons and create openess as in democracy , every one has a right to disagree , speak and express his or her views , there is no fear of anyone , freedom of expression , so the same case is in fiqah issues every one?( mujtahid) has a right to interprete unless not missing the quran and sunnah and every one has a right to follow anyone he thinks moreknowledgable .Suppose i am from hanafi school of thought and some of my friend is ahle hadees now he has a right to follow anyone or if he not follow anyone, only quran and sunnah, this is his right , who the hell was i to object him or critisize him and the vice-versa.
Actually difference give new ways , open new horizons and create openess as in democracy , every one has a right to disagree , speak and express his or her views , there is no fear of anyone , freedom of expression , so the same case is in fiqah issues every one?( mujtahid) has a right to interprete unless not missing the quran and sunnah and every one has a right to follow anyone he thinks moreknowledgable .Suppose i am from hanafi school of thought and some of my friend is ahle hadees now he has a right to follow anyone or if he not follow anyone, only quran and sunnah, this is his right , who the hell was i to object him or critisize him and the vice-versa.
#157 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 15, 2007 12:07:02 am
majumdar ..its a very long debate ..cannot be in paragraph...waisay aap india mai rahtai hai ???
#156 Posted by majumdar on September 15, 2007 12:04:50 am
Dawa behen,
A small request for you. Rather than post small paras in each interact can you combine a large number of paras into a single interact. It would be much more readable and avoid needlessly increasing the number of interacts.
And by the way, I am counting on you to revive our dying vultures.
Regards
A small request for you. Rather than post small paras in each interact can you combine a large number of paras into a single interact. It would be much more readable and avoid needlessly increasing the number of interacts.
And by the way, I am counting on you to revive our dying vultures.
Regards
#155 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:57:13 pm
This is a brief look at Imam Abu Haneefah (may Allaah have mercy on him) and his madhhab. In conclusion, the Muslim cannot but acknowledge the status and position of these imams, but that should not lead us to give precedence to their views over the Book of Allaah and the saheeh reports from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), because in principle we should follow the Qur’aan and Sunnah and not the opinions of men; any man’s opinion may be taken or left, except the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him),as Imam Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him) said.
#154 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:56:01 pm
Imam Ahmad bin hanbal said: “Do not follow me blindly and do not follow Maalik or al-Shaafa’i or al-Awzaa’i or al-Thawri blindly. Learn from where they learned.� And he said: “The opinion of al-Awzaa’i and the opinion of Maalik and the opinion of Abu Haneefah are all mere conjecture and it is all the same to me. Rather evidence is to be found in the reports – i.e., in the shar’i evidence.�
#153 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:54:35 pm
Imam al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “There is no one who will not be unaware of some of the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Whatever I say or whatever guidelines I establish, if there is a report from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which is different to what I said, then what matters is what the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, and that is my opinion.�
#152 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:54:18 pm
Imam Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “I am only human, sometimes I make mistakes and sometimes I get things right. Look at my opinion and whatever is in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah, take it, and whatever is not in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah, ignore it.� And he said: “There is no one after the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) whose words cannot be taken or left, apart from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).�
#151 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:53:50 pm
Imam Abu Haneefah said: “If the hadeeth is saheeh then that is my madhhab.� And he said: “It is not permissible for anyone to follow what we say if they do not know where we got it from.� According to another report he said: “It is haraam for the one who does not know my evidence to issue a fatwa based on my words.� And according to another report he added: “We are human, we may say something today and retract it tomorrow.� And he said: “If I say something that goes against the Book of Allaah or the report of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), then ignore what I say.�
#150 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:53:33 pm
Very important...
In fact, Imam Abu Haneefah and other imams followed the texts of the Qur’aan and Sunnah, even if some of their fatwas were not based on that, the reason being that all four imams stated that if a hadeeth was saheeh, then that was their madhhab, that is what they followed, on what they based their fatwas and from what they derived their evidence.
In fact, Imam Abu Haneefah and other imams followed the texts of the Qur’aan and Sunnah, even if some of their fatwas were not based on that, the reason being that all four imams stated that if a hadeeth was saheeh, then that was their madhhab, that is what they followed, on what they based their fatwas and from what they derived their evidence.
#149 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:52:48 pm
If it is said: If the four madhhabs are based on the Qur’aan and Sunnah, why do we find differences of opinion between them on matters of fiqh?
The answer is: Each imam issued fatwas on the basis of the evidence that reached him. A hadeeth may have reached Imam Maalik on the basis of which he issued fatwas, that did not reach Abu Haneefah, so he issued fatwas stating something different, and vice versa. Similarly a hadeeth may have reached Abu Haneefah with a saheeh isnaad so he issued fatwas on that basis, and the same hadeeth may have reached Imam al-Shaafa’i with a different isnaad that was da’eef (weak), so he did not issue fatwas based on it, or he may have issued a fatwa saying something that went against the hadeeth based on the conclusion he reached. This is why differences arose among the scholars, but ultimately the point of reference is the Qur’aan and Sunnah
The answer is: Each imam issued fatwas on the basis of the evidence that reached him. A hadeeth may have reached Imam Maalik on the basis of which he issued fatwas, that did not reach Abu Haneefah, so he issued fatwas stating something different, and vice versa. Similarly a hadeeth may have reached Abu Haneefah with a saheeh isnaad so he issued fatwas on that basis, and the same hadeeth may have reached Imam al-Shaafa’i with a different isnaad that was da’eef (weak), so he did not issue fatwas based on it, or he may have issued a fatwa saying something that went against the hadeeth based on the conclusion he reached. This is why differences arose among the scholars, but ultimately the point of reference is the Qur’aan and Sunnah
#148 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:52:28 pm
It should be noted that not all the opinions and views of the Hanafi madhhab that is named after Imam Abu Haneefah are the words of Abu Haneefah himself, or can be correctly attributed to him. Many of those views go against what Imam Abu Haneefah himself said, but they were regarded as part of his madhhab because they were worked out according to the guidelines of the madhhab which is derived from the other texts of the imam. Similarly the Hanafi madhhab may adopt the view of a student of the imam such as Abu Yoosuf and Muhammad, and it also includes the ijtihaad of students of the imam, which subsequently became part of the madhhab. This does not apply only to the madhhab of Abu Haneefah, rather the same may be said of all the well-known madhhabs.
#147 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:52:12 pm
Imam Abu Haneefah followed ra’y and qiyaas a great deal in matters other than hudood punishments, expiations and other shar’i issues, and the reason for that is that he had fewer ahaadeeth at his disposal than other imams, because he came before the other imams and was very strict about accepting ahaadeeth, as false reports were so widespread in Iraq at that time and there was a great deal of tribulation.
#146 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:51:56 pm
With regard to the ra’y and qiyaas adopted by Imam Abu Haneefah, what this means is not opinion based on whims and desires, rather it is an opinion based on the evidence, or analogies, or following the general principles of sharee’ah. The salaf used to describe ijtihaad in difficult issues as ra’y (lit. opinion). Many of them used to say when commenting on a verse of the Book of Allaah, “This is my opinion (my ijtihaad) concerning it,� but that does not refer to opinion based on whims and desires, as stated above.
#145 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:51:46 pm
With regard to the ra’y and qiyaas adopted by Imam Abu Haneefah, what this means is not opinion based on whims and desires, rather it is an opinion based on the evidence, or analogies, or following the general principles of sharee’ah. The salaf used to describe ijtihaad in difficult issues as ra’y (lit. opinion). Many of them used to say when commenting on a verse of the Book of Allaah, “This is my opinion (my ijtihaad) concerning it,� but that does not refer to opinion based on whims and desires, as stated above.
#144 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:51:27 pm
Many people narrated reports from him, and he died as a martyr of dropsy in 150 AH at the age of seventy. (Siyar A’laam al-Nubala’, 6/390-403; Usool al-Deen ‘inda al-Imam Abu Haneefah, p. 63).
The Hanafi madhhab is one of the four well-known madhhabs, and it was the first of the fiqhi madhhabs. It was said that “The people are dependent on Abu Haneefah with regard to fiqh.� The origin of the Hanafi madhhab and all the other madhhabs is that these four imams – I mean Abu Haneefah, Maalik, al-Shaafa’i and Ahmad – made the effort to understand the evidence of the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and they issued fatwas to people based on the evidence that had reached them. Then the followers of these imams took their fatwas and conveyed them and issued other fatwas based on them, and derived principles from them, and they set out guidelines for understanding the texts and reaching conclusions. Thus the fiqhi madhhab was formed, and the Hanafi, Shaafa’i, Maaliki and Hanbali madhhabs, and other madhhabs such as those of al-Awzaa’i and Sufyaan, but these latter madhhabs were not destined to continue.
As you can see, what these schools of fiqh are based on is following the Qur’aan and Sunnah.
The Hanafi madhhab is one of the four well-known madhhabs, and it was the first of the fiqhi madhhabs. It was said that “The people are dependent on Abu Haneefah with regard to fiqh.� The origin of the Hanafi madhhab and all the other madhhabs is that these four imams – I mean Abu Haneefah, Maalik, al-Shaafa’i and Ahmad – made the effort to understand the evidence of the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and they issued fatwas to people based on the evidence that had reached them. Then the followers of these imams took their fatwas and conveyed them and issued other fatwas based on them, and derived principles from them, and they set out guidelines for understanding the texts and reaching conclusions. Thus the fiqhi madhhab was formed, and the Hanafi, Shaafa’i, Maaliki and Hanbali madhhabs, and other madhhabs such as those of al-Awzaa’i and Sufyaan, but these latter madhhabs were not destined to continue.
As you can see, what these schools of fiqh are based on is following the Qur’aan and Sunnah.
#143 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:51:03 pm
He was concerned with seeking reports and he traveled for that purpose. With regard to fiqh and examining and analyzing reports, he was the ultimate and people depended on him in that, as Imam al-Dhahabi said: “It would take two volumes to tell the story of his life, may Allaah be pleased with him and have mercy on him.�
He was an imam who was eloquent and well spoken. His student Abu Yoosuf described him as follows: “He was the most well-spoken of the people and the most clear in expressing himself. He was pious and very protective with regard to transgression of the sacred limits of Allaah. He was offered worldly gains and a great deal of wealth, but he turned his back on it. He was whipped to force him to accept the position of judge or controller of the bayt al-maal (treasury of the Islamic state) but he refused.
He was an imam who was eloquent and well spoken. His student Abu Yoosuf described him as follows: “He was the most well-spoken of the people and the most clear in expressing himself. He was pious and very protective with regard to transgression of the sacred limits of Allaah. He was offered worldly gains and a great deal of wealth, but he turned his back on it. He was whipped to force him to accept the position of judge or controller of the bayt al-maal (treasury of the Islamic state) but he refused.
#142 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:50:43 pm
Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.
Imam Abu Haneefah is the great faqeeh and scholar of Iraq, Abu Haneefah al-Nu’maan ibn Thaabit al-Taymi al-Kufi. He was born in the year 80 AH, during the lifetime of some of the younger Sahaabah and saw Anas ibn Maalik when he came to them in Kufa. He narrated from ‘Ata’ ibn Abi Rabaah, who was his greatest Shaykh, and from al-Shu’bi and many others.
Praise be to Allaah.
Imam Abu Haneefah is the great faqeeh and scholar of Iraq, Abu Haneefah al-Nu’maan ibn Thaabit al-Taymi al-Kufi. He was born in the year 80 AH, during the lifetime of some of the younger Sahaabah and saw Anas ibn Maalik when he came to them in Kufa. He narrated from ‘Ata’ ibn Abi Rabaah, who was his greatest Shaykh, and from al-Shu’bi and many others.
#141 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:50:24 pm
Some people claim that wahabis disrespect the greatest faqeeh of all times..Imam abu hanifa of kufa...i searched this from www.islam-qa.com..the same wahabi site....
Question:
We hope that you could give us a brief overview of Imam Abu Haneefah and his madhhab, because I hear some people criticizing this madhhab because he relies too much on qiyaas (analogy) and ra’y (opinion).
Question:
We hope that you could give us a brief overview of Imam Abu Haneefah and his madhhab, because I hear some people criticizing this madhhab because he relies too much on qiyaas (analogy) and ra’y (opinion).
#140 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:48:54 pm
even a very fine joke cannot made me laughed to an extent when i heard that in pakistan there are mosques in which from other" maslak" namazi entered by mistake and offer prayer , the "grand ulema committe" set up an emergency meeting on this " serious issue" and as a result the "decision" taken usually is that to wash the whole mosque with water in order to "pure" the mosque.................Remember when "Banu najran" christians aked our
prophet(peace be upon him) to worship in masjid_e_nabwi , he happily allowed them..................
prophet(peace be upon him) to worship in masjid_e_nabwi , he happily allowed them..................
#139 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:48:36 pm
How foolish we are !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#138 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:48:11 pm
If 95% of our population do not say prayer (even in home , not to ask about a mosque) , then this is not a matter of any consideration....................!!!!!!!!!!!!
the real matter is """" if you do rafa yadain """"" or """aameen billjahar""""
or not...............
or """"where you put your hands on chest or little below"""""""""""
you see , these are the """"real matters""" but we keep ourself busy in other"" minor matters""
the real matter is """" if you do rafa yadain """"" or """aameen billjahar""""
or not...............
or """"where you put your hands on chest or little below"""""""""""
you see , these are the """"real matters""" but we keep ourself busy in other"" minor matters""
#137 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:47:51 pm
we are happy because..............
*In every summer vacation ,we have "Umra trip" in which we enjoy shopping at dubai , take some gold jewellery of ARY gold , visit shopping malls of Jeddah as well as " remove our sins" per year.And on retun we say that with great humbleness " Ji Allah ka bara karam hai"
*in our groceery stores we make black money , zakeera andozi , less weight , but you see , we are not 100% fraud , we give ""ZAKAT" and ""SADQA"" out of it
to purify these "minor" things in our stores and on the face of the store , the bright green and red Neon sign lits on night to say""""HA ZA MIN FAZL_E_RABBI""""
*In every summer vacation ,we have "Umra trip" in which we enjoy shopping at dubai , take some gold jewellery of ARY gold , visit shopping malls of Jeddah as well as " remove our sins" per year.And on retun we say that with great humbleness " Ji Allah ka bara karam hai"
*in our groceery stores we make black money , zakeera andozi , less weight , but you see , we are not 100% fraud , we give ""ZAKAT" and ""SADQA"" out of it
to purify these "minor" things in our stores and on the face of the store , the bright green and red Neon sign lits on night to say""""HA ZA MIN FAZL_E_RABBI""""
#136 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:47:37 pm
in pakistan,
* no body knows his neigbour is hungry from two days
* no body cares about the poverty which took the youth to robbery and mobile snatching
* no body bothers about how many young girls become over-age because of lack of money for dowry.(jahaiz)
* no body thinks about how many poor children are compelled to child labour for poverty.
*no body likes to talk about the consequence of cable tv and blue films in every nook and corner of this country due to which rape cases have increased to alrming rates
*no body wants to talk about difficulties middle class family in this age.
*no body consider the due to cable tv the youth has shattered psychologically, mentally and in every aspect
* no body take care about the roads flooded with" new cars of leasing froms bank" as interest(sood) is minor thing.
***
no body bothers about that because these are "" minor "" issues.
***
the "major" issues are " are prophet(peace be upon him) noori or not?
or is he know the knowledge of " ghaib" or not?
so we all keep our nerves burning in "these major issues".........
* no body knows his neigbour is hungry from two days
* no body cares about the poverty which took the youth to robbery and mobile snatching
* no body bothers about how many young girls become over-age because of lack of money for dowry.(jahaiz)
* no body thinks about how many poor children are compelled to child labour for poverty.
*no body likes to talk about the consequence of cable tv and blue films in every nook and corner of this country due to which rape cases have increased to alrming rates
*no body wants to talk about difficulties middle class family in this age.
*no body consider the due to cable tv the youth has shattered psychologically, mentally and in every aspect
* no body take care about the roads flooded with" new cars of leasing froms bank" as interest(sood) is minor thing.
***
no body bothers about that because these are "" minor "" issues.
***
the "major" issues are " are prophet(peace be upon him) noori or not?
or is he know the knowledge of " ghaib" or not?
so we all keep our nerves burning in "these major issues".........
#135 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:47:06 pm
But i must say that according to hadees out of 73 sects 72 will go to hell and 1 will go to jannah and this will be the one who follow the prophet((peace be upon him) and his sahaba.So we all sould try as much as possible to follow the prophet (peace be upon him) and sahaba and if their is conflict in sahaba follow anyone will inshallah will be correct as in hadees " my sahabas are like stars in the sky , follow anyone will give you the true path"
And most importantly is , if their is conflict in hadees some say it is "zaeef" and some say it is "shaeeh" then if your intention is to follow sunnah then inshallah Allah will definitely reward you if you act upon anyone , for( inna mal aamalo binniyat ) that is" ammakl ka daromaar niyatton par hai."
And most importantly is , if their is conflict in hadees some say it is "zaeef" and some say it is "shaeeh" then if your intention is to follow sunnah then inshallah Allah will definitely reward you if you act upon anyone , for( inna mal aamalo binniyat ) that is" ammakl ka daromaar niyatton par hai."
#134 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:46:23 pm
once written this on paklinks...again producing it here..
will we keep on fighting on issues like deobandi , brelvi and such stupidities?????
if a man who truly follows a quran and ahadees we call him a wahabi.???I am myself a "sunni from hanafi school of thought" but why world oppse wahabis so much....because they strictly follow quran and ahadees.But they follow mostly Bukhari and Muslim shareef , a 100% true texts of hadees and we all also consider ahadees which are not 100% shaheeh say 70 or 80% saheeh .In examinations you even pass of 33% or 40% so this is the only difference but "yaar log to rai ka pahar bana daitay hain".so plz. go on these minor issuses of " rafa yadain" and " ameen biljahar" , there are ahadees in their favour and not in their favour.But the degree of shaheeh is different.So in my opinion , all are correct , as far as your intention is , to follow the sunnah of prophet(peace be upon him).With this in mind , in my humble opinion , Allah will definitely reward you.Inshallah.
will we keep on fighting on issues like deobandi , brelvi and such stupidities?????
if a man who truly follows a quran and ahadees we call him a wahabi.???I am myself a "sunni from hanafi school of thought" but why world oppse wahabis so much....because they strictly follow quran and ahadees.But they follow mostly Bukhari and Muslim shareef , a 100% true texts of hadees and we all also consider ahadees which are not 100% shaheeh say 70 or 80% saheeh .In examinations you even pass of 33% or 40% so this is the only difference but "yaar log to rai ka pahar bana daitay hain".so plz. go on these minor issuses of " rafa yadain" and " ameen biljahar" , there are ahadees in their favour and not in their favour.But the degree of shaheeh is different.So in my opinion , all are correct , as far as your intention is , to follow the sunnah of prophet(peace be upon him).With this in mind , in my humble opinion , Allah will definitely reward you.Inshallah.
#133 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:44:15 pm
No majumdar sahib..i am really very sinful ...cannot do anything...i am not equal to dust of thier feet...
#132 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:40:34 pm
now..see..this is an answer from pure wahabi site..but see ..how he is praising the greateness of this great saint....
point is...we should not go opposition to such extent that ...just start fatwas of kufr and deviants on others...
point is...we should not go opposition to such extent that ...just start fatwas of kufr and deviants on others...
#131 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:39:17 pm
By comparing the actions of those who claim to follow the shaykh with what is narrated in the Qur’aan and Sunnah, what was narrated from the righteous salaf and even what was narrated from the Shaykh himself (may Allaah have mercy on him), we will clearly see that there is a huge gap between the two, and that the Qaadiri group has deviated from the path of its shaykh whom they claim to be following. That is because they have introduced so many innovations (bid’ahs) into the religion of Allaah, that the Shaykh would never have approved of. It has been narrated from the respectable scholars that they regarded this group as extreme, for example what was said by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) in his refutation of al-Bakri concerning the issue of ziyaarah or visiting graves (1/228), and in the fatwas of Shaykh Muhammad ibn Ibraaheem Aal al-Shaykh, indicates that they have committed some actions of shirk.
See: Fataawa Ibn Ibraaheem, 1/276, 109
Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 2/250-252
Al-Durar al-Sunniyyah, 1/74
See: Fataawa Ibn Ibraaheem, 1/276, 109
Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 2/250-252
Al-Durar al-Sunniyyah, 1/74
#130 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:38:00 pm
There is a point which we must make here, which is that praising Shaykh ‘Abd al-Qaadir does not mean praising everyone who claims to follow him. Not everyone who claims to follow a shaykh or a tareeqah or anything else is to be believed. How often has it happened that a person who is thought to be a true follower turned out to be the farthest removed from what was thought to be the case? How many misleading people don the cloak of asceticism and piety when they have nothing to do with either of them? Hence the Sufi tareeqah which is known nowadays as the Qaadiriyyah is not following the straight path which the Shaykh (may Allaah have mercy on him) followed, rather it is a deviant Sufi tareeqah which has deviated from the guidance of the Qur’aan and Sunnah; it exaggerates a great deal about Shaykh ‘Abd al-Qaadir and even attributes to him things that can only rightfully be attributed to Allaah. Some of them exaggerate concerning his grave, seeking help from it, and some of them exaggerate about his attributes and miracles (karaamah).
#129 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:37:47 pm
Moreover, it is not right to make one Muslim scholar, let alone anyone else, the sole source of what is true and correct, in the sense that one takes what he says as being true and what goes against that as being false – not Shaykh ‘Abd al-Qaadir and not anyone else. Rather the truth is that which is in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah, no matter who says it, and what goes against the Qur’aan and Sunnah should be ignored and avoided, even if it is said by ‘Abd al-Qaadir al-Jilaani, Maalik, al-Shaafa’i, Ahmad or anyone else.
#128 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:37:28 pm
Shaykh ‘Abd al-Qaadir agreed with Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah – the followers of truth – concerning all issues of ‘aqeedah (belief), namely Tawheed, faith, Prophethood, and the Last Day.
There are some minor mistakes and errors in his books, and some innovations which are relatively insignificant when compared with his achievements. To find out more about them, along with an explanation of where he went wrong, please see Shaykh ‘Abd al-Qaadir al-Jilaani wa Araa’uhu al-I’tidaaqiyyah wa’l-Soofiyyah, by Shaykh Dr. Sa’eed ibn Musfir al-Qahtaani, 440-476.
There are some minor mistakes and errors in his books, and some innovations which are relatively insignificant when compared with his achievements. To find out more about them, along with an explanation of where he went wrong, please see Shaykh ‘Abd al-Qaadir al-Jilaani wa Araa’uhu al-I’tidaaqiyyah wa’l-Soofiyyah, by Shaykh Dr. Sa’eed ibn Musfir al-Qahtaani, 440-476.
#127 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:37:12 pm
Shaykh ‘Abd al-Qaadir was a follower, not an innovator. He followed the way of the righteous salaf and in his books he encouraged people to follow the salaf; he also enjoined that upon his followers. He used to tell people not to follow innovations in religion, and he stated clearly that he was opposed to the ahl al-kalaam (“Islamic philosophers�) such as the Ash’aris and their ilk.
#126 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:36:33 pm
Shaykh ‘Abd al-Qaadir (may Allaah have mercy on him) is one of the imaams of Islam. He attained a position of leadership over the Muslims of his time, in knowledge, good deeds, issuing fatwas and other aspects of religion. He was one of the greatest shaykhs of his time, enjoining adherence to the sharee’ah, enjoining what is good, forbidding what is evil, and giving that precedence over all else. He was an ascetic (zaahid) and a preacher, in whose gatherings many people repented. Allaah caused him to be well-liked by people and his virtue became widely-known – may Allaah bestow abundant mercy upon him.
#125 Posted by majumdar on September 14, 2007 11:36:09 pm
Dawa behen,
(we all are very sinful muslims..we are not even the foot level of these pious people... )
I think u r just being very modest. I am sure u can work miracles. Yes, kanjaroooons like Tahmed sahib and Manto mian are a different matter
Regards
(we all are very sinful muslims..we are not even the foot level of these pious people... )
I think u r just being very modest. I am sure u can work miracles. Yes, kanjaroooons like Tahmed sahib and Manto mian are a different matter
Regards
#124 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:36:08 pm
www.islam-qa.com ..is considered as the world greatest wahabi or salafi website of answers and questions...in 8 languages ..and under the supervision of saudi scholars....
lets take a look on that....
Question:
What do you think of Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani?
I have heard some really bad stories about Abdul Wahab and how he disgraced the religion of Islam? What is your opinion on this?
Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.
When speaking about people, what we say must be based on knowledge and fairness. In the case of a man who has achieved a great deal in the way of religion, we must acknowledge his achievements, but that does not prevent us from pointing out his mistakes. This general principle is to be applied when speaking of Shaykh ‘Abd al-Qaadir al-Jilaani and other Muslim scholars.
lets take a look on that....
Question:
What do you think of Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani?
I have heard some really bad stories about Abdul Wahab and how he disgraced the religion of Islam? What is your opinion on this?
Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.
When speaking about people, what we say must be based on knowledge and fairness. In the case of a man who has achieved a great deal in the way of religion, we must acknowledge his achievements, but that does not prevent us from pointing out his mistakes. This general principle is to be applied when speaking of Shaykh ‘Abd al-Qaadir al-Jilaani and other Muslim scholars.
#123 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:20:01 pm
" I have come across the such a large numbers of miracles of Sh Abdul qadir Jilani ...that no wali ...can parallel to him in this regard..."
Kitab Ollod ul Arsh
Imam zahbi
Pg 193
Kitab Ollod ul Arsh
Imam zahbi
Pg 193
#122 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:17:29 pm
Urstruly....sahab..thanks for your nice words....
Actually...your point was that ...despite Pir Mehar Ali Shah..defeated Mirza sahab..he himself could not do that....
but this is not true....if he himself could not do that..why he claimed such difficult tasks to Mirza Sahab....logically wrong...
Imam zahbi..is considered as one of he greatest critic and opponent of Sufis...and Saudi scholars consider him imam ..and quote his rulings ..in thier fatwas....after Imam Ibne Tamiyya and Imam Ibne Jauzi..etc...
IMAM ZAHBI HAS WRITTEN THAT....
" A man who brought Balqees throne in a second was nothing but a karamat of a that person...so a jahil can negate the karamats of sufia...hence we fully acknoledge the miracles of sufias.."
Kitab ul Oollod ul Arsh
Imam zahbi
Pg. 56
Actually...your point was that ...despite Pir Mehar Ali Shah..defeated Mirza sahab..he himself could not do that....
but this is not true....if he himself could not do that..why he claimed such difficult tasks to Mirza Sahab....logically wrong...
Imam zahbi..is considered as one of he greatest critic and opponent of Sufis...and Saudi scholars consider him imam ..and quote his rulings ..in thier fatwas....after Imam Ibne Tamiyya and Imam Ibne Jauzi..etc...
IMAM ZAHBI HAS WRITTEN THAT....
" A man who brought Balqees throne in a second was nothing but a karamat of a that person...so a jahil can negate the karamats of sufia...hence we fully acknoledge the miracles of sufias.."
Kitab ul Oollod ul Arsh
Imam zahbi
Pg. 56
#121 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:05:05 pm
Re: # 119 majumdar sahib..we all are very sinful muslims..we are not even the foot level of these pious people...
#120 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 11:04:00 pm
Re: # 72 posted by zeemax....
thanks zeemax...
thanks zeemax...
#119 Posted by majumdar on September 14, 2007 9:30:41 pm
Tahmed sahib/Naqsh sahib,
As you would be aware the vultures are threatened with extinction in the Indian subcontinent. Can you guys work some miracle and revive the dead birds. Thanking you in advance.
Regards
As you would be aware the vultures are threatened with extinction in the Indian subcontinent. Can you guys work some miracle and revive the dead birds. Thanking you in advance.
Regards
#118 Posted by tahmed32 on September 14, 2007 5:25:56 pm
Netizen #92 in response to my saying "it is not for humans to know the Absolute Truth." you wrote why not??
Because we are limited in our perceptions by an image of reality through our five senses. That of itself is a severe limitation, and this was pointed out centuries ago by Kant, e.g.
But there is more - scientific advancements of the 20th century have shattered our comfortable notion that reality is anything like we perceive it. Check out e.g. the strange world of subatomic physics which we can intuitively understand no more than a dog can intuitively understand algebra (e.g. multiple dimensions, even multiple universes; or the awesome big bang that took place 16 billion years ago). Only the total dud, unaware of things discovered over a hundred years ago, still believes that reality is anything like what we understand it, much less that humans have the mental capacity to comprehend things like the Absolute Truth.
Because we are limited in our perceptions by an image of reality through our five senses. That of itself is a severe limitation, and this was pointed out centuries ago by Kant, e.g.
But there is more - scientific advancements of the 20th century have shattered our comfortable notion that reality is anything like we perceive it. Check out e.g. the strange world of subatomic physics which we can intuitively understand no more than a dog can intuitively understand algebra (e.g. multiple dimensions, even multiple universes; or the awesome big bang that took place 16 billion years ago). Only the total dud, unaware of things discovered over a hundred years ago, still believes that reality is anything like what we understand it, much less that humans have the mental capacity to comprehend things like the Absolute Truth.
#117 Posted by tahmed32 on September 14, 2007 5:12:49 pm
okla sahib #91 You ask
How can one be intellectually honest if one is not a true believer???
Simple - when you say you "believe" something, or have "faith" of some kind, you imply that this is something that you cannot prove. Thus, I can say for a fact that the earth is round, since there is a way to prove it. I cannot say for a fact that God exists, since there is no way to prove it. So, I can be intellectually honest, and say I believe in God's existence. Or I can be intellectually dishonest (as Urstruly was being), and say that I know it to be the Absolute Truth that God's existence.
How can one be a true believer if one is not intellectually honest???
See response above. :-)
How can one be intellectually honest if one is not a true believer???
Simple - when you say you "believe" something, or have "faith" of some kind, you imply that this is something that you cannot prove. Thus, I can say for a fact that the earth is round, since there is a way to prove it. I cannot say for a fact that God exists, since there is no way to prove it. So, I can be intellectually honest, and say I believe in God's existence. Or I can be intellectually dishonest (as Urstruly was being), and say that I know it to be the Absolute Truth that God's existence.
How can one be a true believer if one is not intellectually honest???
See response above. :-)
#116 Posted by thinkingstorm on September 14, 2007 4:12:16 pm
Hazoor Naqshbandi-
There is a Wali Naqshbandi appreciation thread on Chok unplugged. Your presence will enlighten us all.
Subhanallah.
with much respect,
thinking storm
There is a Wali Naqshbandi appreciation thread on Chok unplugged. Your presence will enlighten us all.
Subhanallah.
with much respect,
thinking storm
#115 Posted by Netizen on September 14, 2007 3:09:47 pm
one at last post for today........
urstruly,
abu hanifas action showed that there was no compelling evidence to disprove the exist of god. But not compelling enough to prove its existence.
so may be in the end he too was proving the agnostic point of view.
urstruly,
abu hanifas action showed that there was no compelling evidence to disprove the exist of god. But not compelling enough to prove its existence.
so may be in the end he too was proving the agnostic point of view.
#114 Posted by Netizen on September 14, 2007 2:55:55 pm
i got to go now, urstruly if you have any further comments about the topic we will discuss later or maybe you can have it on your ilog.
#113 Posted by Raw_Dust on September 14, 2007 2:55:43 pm
Urstruly:
If you have an air-tight proof of the existence of "GOD" then you are a faithless man just like an average Joe.
Why is God expected to pay your case an iota of divine attention on Roz-e-Mehshar/Judgement Day. You deserve His eternal indifference and nothing less.
If you have an air-tight proof of the existence of "GOD" then you are a faithless man just like an average Joe.
Why is God expected to pay your case an iota of divine attention on Roz-e-Mehshar/Judgement Day. You deserve His eternal indifference and nothing less.
#112 Posted by Netizen on September 14, 2007 2:54:32 pm
other day jay leno said isn't it quite a concidence that we hardly hear about UFO sightings nowadays as almost everyone has a camera cellphone.
I think the same applies to the disappearance of people who can perform miracles.
I think the same applies to the disappearance of people who can perform miracles.
#111 Posted by Netizen on September 14, 2007 2:49:44 pm
ursruly,
abu hanifas action were not a compelling evidence as a proof in the existence of god.
in abu hanifas time, even the thought of walking on moon would also have been considered as an act of god.
simply because we can't explain some events with current knowledge doesn't mean/prove that god exists.
during medieval times even eclipse was considered as an act of god and earth as the center of the universe.
abu hanifas action were not a compelling evidence as a proof in the existence of god.
in abu hanifas time, even the thought of walking on moon would also have been considered as an act of god.
simply because we can't explain some events with current knowledge doesn't mean/prove that god exists.
during medieval times even eclipse was considered as an act of god and earth as the center of the universe.
#110 Posted by dost_mittar on September 14, 2007 2:43:11 pm
Urstruly:
The problem is the way in you pose the question, "Who created the Universe?" This is what we researchers would call a loaded question because it already assumes that someone must have created it. A more neutral framing of the question would be "how did this universe come into being?" For people of faith, it would be by a God or maybe gods, but for agnostics, it is an intriguing question whose answer we have not yet found. And, yes, the concept of a God does fill this gap in our knowledge although our assumption of this entity as omnipotent, omniscient, beneficent and merciful creates its own problems, which have been discussed in this forum before.
The problem is the way in you pose the question, "Who created the Universe?" This is what we researchers would call a loaded question because it already assumes that someone must have created it. A more neutral framing of the question would be "how did this universe come into being?" For people of faith, it would be by a God or maybe gods, but for agnostics, it is an intriguing question whose answer we have not yet found. And, yes, the concept of a God does fill this gap in our knowledge although our assumption of this entity as omnipotent, omniscient, beneficent and merciful creates its own problems, which have been discussed in this forum before.
#109 Posted by Raw_Dust on September 14, 2007 2:42:09 pm
For one side: the act of faith is to believe and remember these stories and pass them on over generations: Dada Abba to Abba Ji, Abba ji to Beta Ji, Beta ji to Beta ka Beta Ji. It is a chain of cultural relic that binds the people and defeats the cruel cycle of time (nudge nudge, wink wink).
For the other side, it is shameful and embarrassing to acknowledge these esoteric tales as part of the religious experience of their collective. It carries the same name and it becomes an act of Faith to loudly reject this stuff in the name of what they were told to be the Truth.
Personally, I think there is a kind of beauty in these tales and the way they were told. It carries a sense of time and place and the voice, notice that disembodied voice - it's coming from somewhere like outer space or underneath the ground on which now lay dusty streets, bustling chowks and bazaars.
For the other side, it is shameful and embarrassing to acknowledge these esoteric tales as part of the religious experience of their collective. It carries the same name and it becomes an act of Faith to loudly reject this stuff in the name of what they were told to be the Truth.
Personally, I think there is a kind of beauty in these tales and the way they were told. It carries a sense of time and place and the voice, notice that disembodied voice - it's coming from somewhere like outer space or underneath the ground on which now lay dusty streets, bustling chowks and bazaars.
#108 Posted by dost_mittar on September 14, 2007 2:35:50 pm
jayp#58:
Isn't it all metaphysics?
On Brahma, they do show his image in North India - either as coming out on a lotus (also a sign of his consort, Saraswati) or as a bearded Visvakarma.
As for his temple, it is a common saying that there is only one temple dedicated to him, the one at Pushkar. However, some people have documented four such temples, two of them in your own state of Kerala, namely Khed Brahma and at Koddakal. I have personally seen one at Khajuraho in Madhya Pradesh - nothing fancy, just a chabootra (a small structure) unattended by any priest or guardian.
Incidentally, today's rediff.com traces the following genealogy from Brahma to Ram of Ayodhya. Enjoy!
"When Kalidas wrote Raghuvamsam, he described the entire dynasty beginning from Brahma. Lord Brahma created 10 prajapatis -- one of whom was Marichi. Kashyapa is the son of Marichi and Kala. Kashyapa is regarded as the father of humanity. Vivasvan or Surya is the son of Kashyapa and Aditi. Manu or Vaivaswatha Manu is the son of Vivasvan. He is regarded as the first ruler belonging to the Ikshvaku dynasty. Ikshvaku is the son of Manu and established his kingdom in Ayodhya. Kukshi is the son of Ikshavaku. Vikukshi is the son of Kukshi. Bana is the son of Vikukshi. Anaranya is the son of Bana. Prithu is the son of Anaranya. Trisanku is the son of Prithu. Dhundhumara is the son of Trisanku. Yuvanaswa is the son of Dhundhumara. Mandhata is the son of Yuvanaswa. Susandhi is the son of Mandhata. Daivasandhi and Presenjit are the sons of Susandhi. Bharatha is the son of Presenjit. Asita is the son of Bharatha. Sagara is the son of Asitha. Asamanja is the son of Sagara. Amsumantha (Ansuman) is the son of Asamanja. Dileepa is the son of Amsumantha. Bhagiratha is the son of Dileepa. Kakustha is the son of Bhagiratha. Raghu is the son of Kakushta.
The clan of Raghuvamsha started with Raghu. Pravardha is the son of Raghu. Sankhana is the son of Pravardha. Sudarsana is the son of Sankhana. Agnivarna is the son of Sudarsana. Seeghraga is the son of Agnivarna. Maru is the son of Seeghraga. Prasusruka is the son of Maru. Ambarisha is the son of Prasusruka. Nahusha is the son of Ambarisha. Yayathi is the son of Nahusha. Nabhaga is the son of Yayathi. Aja is the son of Nabhaga. Dasaratha is the son of Aja. Rama, Lakshmana, Bharatha and Shatrughana are the sons of Dasaratha. Lava and Kusha are the sons of Rama."
Isn't it all metaphysics?
On Brahma, they do show his image in North India - either as coming out on a lotus (also a sign of his consort, Saraswati) or as a bearded Visvakarma.
As for his temple, it is a common saying that there is only one temple dedicated to him, the one at Pushkar. However, some people have documented four such temples, two of them in your own state of Kerala, namely Khed Brahma and at Koddakal. I have personally seen one at Khajuraho in Madhya Pradesh - nothing fancy, just a chabootra (a small structure) unattended by any priest or guardian.
Incidentally, today's rediff.com traces the following genealogy from Brahma to Ram of Ayodhya. Enjoy!
"When Kalidas wrote Raghuvamsam, he described the entire dynasty beginning from Brahma. Lord Brahma created 10 prajapatis -- one of whom was Marichi. Kashyapa is the son of Marichi and Kala. Kashyapa is regarded as the father of humanity. Vivasvan or Surya is the son of Kashyapa and Aditi. Manu or Vaivaswatha Manu is the son of Vivasvan. He is regarded as the first ruler belonging to the Ikshvaku dynasty. Ikshvaku is the son of Manu and established his kingdom in Ayodhya. Kukshi is the son of Ikshavaku. Vikukshi is the son of Kukshi. Bana is the son of Vikukshi. Anaranya is the son of Bana. Prithu is the son of Anaranya. Trisanku is the son of Prithu. Dhundhumara is the son of Trisanku. Yuvanaswa is the son of Dhundhumara. Mandhata is the son of Yuvanaswa. Susandhi is the son of Mandhata. Daivasandhi and Presenjit are the sons of Susandhi. Bharatha is the son of Presenjit. Asita is the son of Bharatha. Sagara is the son of Asitha. Asamanja is the son of Sagara. Amsumantha (Ansuman) is the son of Asamanja. Dileepa is the son of Amsumantha. Bhagiratha is the son of Dileepa. Kakustha is the son of Bhagiratha. Raghu is the son of Kakushta.
The clan of Raghuvamsha started with Raghu. Pravardha is the son of Raghu. Sankhana is the son of Pravardha. Sudarsana is the son of Sankhana. Agnivarna is the son of Sudarsana. Seeghraga is the son of Agnivarna. Maru is the son of Seeghraga. Prasusruka is the son of Maru. Ambarisha is the son of Prasusruka. Nahusha is the son of Ambarisha. Yayathi is the son of Nahusha. Nabhaga is the son of Yayathi. Aja is the son of Nabhaga. Dasaratha is the son of Aja. Rama, Lakshmana, Bharatha and Shatrughana are the sons of Dasaratha. Lava and Kusha are the sons of Rama."
#107 Posted by dost_mittar on September 14, 2007 2:26:58 pm
Naqshbandi:
"i do believe them literally and why should it amaze you?"
It amazes me perhaps because I am not blessed with the seed of faith!
Incidentally, while I have personally not seen any miracles besides magician's illusions, I know many followers of Sai Baba who claim to have witnessed his miracles. BTW, have you personally seen any Pir perform a miracle?
"i do believe them literally and why should it amaze you?"
It amazes me perhaps because I am not blessed with the seed of faith!
Incidentally, while I have personally not seen any miracles besides magician's illusions, I know many followers of Sai Baba who claim to have witnessed his miracles. BTW, have you personally seen any Pir perform a miracle?
#106 Posted by Naqshbandi on September 14, 2007 2:22:06 pm
Urstruly, although your logical explanation of Pir Sayyid Mihr Ali Shah Sahib's challenge also makes sense it, if the Qadiani had said, no you go first and Pir Sahib hadn't done it it would have made Pir Sahib look bad nauzubillah. BTW other accounts say that Pir Sahib's pen actually began to write...
Also, the history of islamic sufism is full of accounts of saints performing miracles. Although miracles of saints are not per se proof of truth they can be used in circumstances to challenge impostors as in this case.
The claim that these stories are just teaching stories and not meant to be taken literally is not how traditionally they have been understood. If you read the basic aqidah books of the Sunnis e.g. al-Aqidah Tahawiyyah it says something like, 'we believe in the karamat [miracles] of the awliya'.
Remember that such karamats have also been recorded in the books of hadith and athaar [traditions] from the Sahaba. The Qur'an too is witness. Remember when Solomon alayhisalam asks who can bring me the throne of Bilqis? A man --Asif ibn Barkhiya according to the commentators--stands up and says I can bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye. This is an example of a karamat of a wali of Bani Isra'il. Imagine then the power of a wali of the Ummah of Rasool Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam.
Remember Sayyidina Umar's calling out, "Ya Thuwayba, al-jabal! al-jabal!" O Thuwayba, the mountain ! the mountain!
Wasn't that a karamat? Anyway belief in karamats is a part of the traditional creed of orthodox islam and you can believe it or not it is up to you.
Your denial does not make it so. :-)
Also, the history of islamic sufism is full of accounts of saints performing miracles. Although miracles of saints are not per se proof of truth they can be used in circumstances to challenge impostors as in this case.
The claim that these stories are just teaching stories and not meant to be taken literally is not how traditionally they have been understood. If you read the basic aqidah books of the Sunnis e.g. al-Aqidah Tahawiyyah it says something like, 'we believe in the karamat [miracles] of the awliya'.
Remember that such karamats have also been recorded in the books of hadith and athaar [traditions] from the Sahaba. The Qur'an too is witness. Remember when Solomon alayhisalam asks who can bring me the throne of Bilqis? A man --Asif ibn Barkhiya according to the commentators--stands up and says I can bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye. This is an example of a karamat of a wali of Bani Isra'il. Imagine then the power of a wali of the Ummah of Rasool Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam.
Remember Sayyidina Umar's calling out, "Ya Thuwayba, al-jabal! al-jabal!" O Thuwayba, the mountain ! the mountain!
Wasn't that a karamat? Anyway belief in karamats is a part of the traditional creed of orthodox islam and you can believe it or not it is up to you.
Your denial does not make it so. :-)
#105 Posted by Netizen on September 14, 2007 1:48:56 pm
it seems that poor chacha tahmed has run off to break his fast. isn't it early to do so?
or may be he thinks it to below his dignity to reply to me :)
or may be he thinks it to below his dignity to reply to me :)
#104 Posted by Urstruly on September 14, 2007 1:37:30 pm
Re: # 102
yes; it wasn't a challenge to lift the pen at all, instead it was a challeneg to refute the point. But Mirza sahib fell in the trap and "failed" to prove his prophethood instead.
See this is an irrefutable argument. Had Mirza sahib said that "you first", Pir Sahib would have simply said that I am a mere moratl how can I lift it, you are the one who calls himself prophet, you do it. And if Mirza sahib said that "no I can't do it" it would have fasified Miraz's prophethood with his own admission because Mirza sahib had already accepted the premise that one who will lift the pen would be the truthful one and vice versa.
That was an iron clad argument. I think it would help you to understand this being lawyer and all.
yes; it wasn't a challenge to lift the pen at all, instead it was a challeneg to refute the point. But Mirza sahib fell in the trap and "failed" to prove his prophethood instead.
See this is an irrefutable argument. Had Mirza sahib said that "you first", Pir Sahib would have simply said that I am a mere moratl how can I lift it, you are the one who calls himself prophet, you do it. And if Mirza sahib said that "no I can't do it" it would have fasified Miraz's prophethood with his own admission because Mirza sahib had already accepted the premise that one who will lift the pen would be the truthful one and vice versa.
That was an iron clad argument. I think it would help you to understand this being lawyer and all.
#103 Posted by Urstruly on September 14, 2007 1:26:15 pm
Netizen:
If you can refute this you get a convert as well.
The following story is attributed to the great Muslim jurist Imam Abu Hanifa who gave world the science of jurisprudence i.e. art and science of formulating laws.
Once upon a time an agnostic challenged bu hanifa to debate and prove the existence of God. A time and place was set up for the debate. On that particular time whole city had gathered at that place but bu Hanifa was nowhere to be seen. Hours went by and judges were hopelessly waiting to call off the debate when bu hanifa showed up. The agnostic of course boasted and made fun of bu hanifa that he had chickened out. Bu hanifa explained that he did not chicken out, but he was unable to catch a boat to come across the river. He said he waited and waited at the river bank but a boat was nowhere to be seen. At last when he was about to become hopeless and was turning back a tree fell in the river and as soon as the splashing water came down to a rest it had turned into a boat. So that was how he got late and got to the debate finally.
The agnostic was listening to that impatiently and as bu hanifa stopped he blurted out obscenities, ``How the F this is possible-you liar``. Bu Hanifa replied calmly ``if this universe is possible without God then why not a crummy little boat?``.
If you can refute this you get a convert as well.
The following story is attributed to the great Muslim jurist Imam Abu Hanifa who gave world the science of jurisprudence i.e. art and science of formulating laws.
Once upon a time an agnostic challenged bu hanifa to debate and prove the existence of God. A time and place was set up for the debate. On that particular time whole city had gathered at that place but bu Hanifa was nowhere to be seen. Hours went by and judges were hopelessly waiting to call off the debate when bu hanifa showed up. The agnostic of course boasted and made fun of bu hanifa that he had chickened out. Bu hanifa explained that he did not chicken out, but he was unable to catch a boat to come across the river. He said he waited and waited at the river bank but a boat was nowhere to be seen. At last when he was about to become hopeless and was turning back a tree fell in the river and as soon as the splashing water came down to a rest it had turned into a boat. So that was how he got late and got to the debate finally.
The agnostic was listening to that impatiently and as bu hanifa stopped he blurted out obscenities, ``How the F this is possible-you liar``. Bu Hanifa replied calmly ``if this universe is possible without God then why not a crummy little boat?``.
#102 Posted by MantoLives on September 14, 2007 1:22:28 pm
So then the Pir's point does not mean much... since he was the one who wanted the pen to raise which you've already ruled out as credible evidence for prophethood.
#101 Posted by Urstruly on September 14, 2007 1:14:56 pm
Re: # 97 Manto
Perhaps I was not clear enough to make my point. Even a third rate magician who performs at schools or casinos can levitate not only a pen but a whole bachcha jamhoora as well. The forty elders, according to Jewish tarditions, that went to mount Senai with Moses (pbuh) saw God along with Moses with their own eyes and testified to their people but still they went astray. Moses parted the sea in front of whole nation and yet people went astray. Jesus (pbuh) ressurected the dead, cured leppers, enabled blind to see, walked on the water and yet the people tried to crucify him. Similarly several miracles are attributed to holy prophet (pbuh)as well and yet two of his daughters were divorced, he was excommunicated, exiled, physically abused, and was target of assasinations and annihilation through wars.
So the point is that if there is a God and he can enable a man to part moon asunder, or walk on the water, or part the whole sea with his staff, then the question is can't this God simply change the heart of all people so that everyone becomes a believer. What is so difficult with that?
So this argument points us to only one conclusion that the Divine Intention for us is to recognize God through our own menatal faculty. The Absolute Truth that there is One God who created this universe is right in front of us in the form of this universe.
If we keep the above argument in mind the miracles themslves are nothing but a vehicle that may (or may not help you) to get to the Truth. It is your choice whether you ride this vehicle or not. It is same as a magician using his trick of levitating a pen or a person as vehicle to get dollars out of your pockets and into his hat. There is difference between pathway and the destination.
No Prophet of God ever asked people to believe in God because they could show miracles. They always gave the Message first and not the miracle first.
Perhaps I was not clear enough to make my point. Even a third rate magician who performs at schools or casinos can levitate not only a pen but a whole bachcha jamhoora as well. The forty elders, according to Jewish tarditions, that went to mount Senai with Moses (pbuh) saw God along with Moses with their own eyes and testified to their people but still they went astray. Moses parted the sea in front of whole nation and yet people went astray. Jesus (pbuh) ressurected the dead, cured leppers, enabled blind to see, walked on the water and yet the people tried to crucify him. Similarly several miracles are attributed to holy prophet (pbuh)as well and yet two of his daughters were divorced, he was excommunicated, exiled, physically abused, and was target of assasinations and annihilation through wars.
So the point is that if there is a God and he can enable a man to part moon asunder, or walk on the water, or part the whole sea with his staff, then the question is can't this God simply change the heart of all people so that everyone becomes a believer. What is so difficult with that?
So this argument points us to only one conclusion that the Divine Intention for us is to recognize God through our own menatal faculty. The Absolute Truth that there is One God who created this universe is right in front of us in the form of this universe.
If we keep the above argument in mind the miracles themslves are nothing but a vehicle that may (or may not help you) to get to the Truth. It is your choice whether you ride this vehicle or not. It is same as a magician using his trick of levitating a pen or a person as vehicle to get dollars out of your pockets and into his hat. There is difference between pathway and the destination.
No Prophet of God ever asked people to believe in God because they could show miracles. They always gave the Message first and not the miracle first.
#100 Posted by Netizen on September 14, 2007 1:14:20 pm
urstruly:
I hate to go back to your comments on #98 but still feel the urge to respond to it. Hence here my reply. but would still like to stick to the topic at hand.
regarding: "For example, for us germs did not exist until we extended our sense of sight through microscope. Are you waiting for such a moment that a microsope would enable you to see God? "
why not?
if someone can scientficlaly prove the existence of god, just as it was done in case of microbes, I would immediately accept it.
till then i am neither accepting nor denying gods existence.i.e. being agnostic.
hence I am trying to understand your point of view since you are fully convinced of his/her existence.
you don't go around believing in flying pigs because one day we will find a "microscope" good enough to discover them.
I hate to go back to your comments on #98 but still feel the urge to respond to it. Hence here my reply. but would still like to stick to the topic at hand.
regarding: "For example, for us germs did not exist until we extended our sense of sight through microscope. Are you waiting for such a moment that a microsope would enable you to see God? "
why not?
if someone can scientficlaly prove the existence of god, just as it was done in case of microbes, I would immediately accept it.
till then i am neither accepting nor denying gods existence.i.e. being agnostic.
hence I am trying to understand your point of view since you are fully convinced of his/her existence.
you don't go around believing in flying pigs because one day we will find a "microscope" good enough to discover them.
#99 Posted by Netizen on September 14, 2007 12:51:10 pm
#98
urstruly:
lets talk about my conundrum at a later date. lets try to stick the topic of the Absolute truth that there is One creator who created this universe.
as per your sentence,
"Every Muslim who has a strong belief, believes in islam because it puts forth the Absolute Truth that there is One Creator who created the whole universe. That is all there is to Islam."
My questin again to you is what convinces you that there is only one creator who created this universe.
urstruly:
lets talk about my conundrum at a later date. lets try to stick the topic of the Absolute truth that there is One creator who created this universe.
as per your sentence,
"Every Muslim who has a strong belief, believes in islam because it puts forth the Absolute Truth that there is One Creator who created the whole universe. That is all there is to Islam."
My questin again to you is what convinces you that there is only one creator who created this universe.
#98 Posted by Urstruly on September 14, 2007 12:33:44 pm
Re: # 96
I am only trying to understand the nature of your doubt so that I can put forth a convincing argument. If I do not know what is causing you to doubt then how can address your doubt. Are you doubtful because of some philosophically abstract reasons or are you doubtful because you cannot feel the existence of God with your five senses. As you know we perceive the reality of our universe through our five senses and if we cannot sense something we assume that it does not exist. For example, for us germs did not exist until we extended our sense of sight through microscope. Are you waiting for such a moment that a microsope would enable you to see God? What is your conundrum? Help me out here.
I am only trying to understand the nature of your doubt so that I can put forth a convincing argument. If I do not know what is causing you to doubt then how can address your doubt. Are you doubtful because of some philosophically abstract reasons or are you doubtful because you cannot feel the existence of God with your five senses. As you know we perceive the reality of our universe through our five senses and if we cannot sense something we assume that it does not exist. For example, for us germs did not exist until we extended our sense of sight through microscope. Are you waiting for such a moment that a microsope would enable you to see God? What is your conundrum? Help me out here.
#97 Posted by MantoLives on September 14, 2007 12:29:19 pm
Re: # 84
Urstruly,
My question to you is without any ulterior motives and is as a Muslim who does not believe in anything other the God, the Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH and the Quran ... I hope you will take it in stride.
While I personally do not for a second believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmed to be a Prophet of God... or any other thing for that matter, having rejected the Ahmadi beliefs all my life... may I ask you if the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) whom I consider the final prophet and messenger could also raise the pen through the air as you've suggested.
Urstruly,
My question to you is without any ulterior motives and is as a Muslim who does not believe in anything other the God, the Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH and the Quran ... I hope you will take it in stride.
While I personally do not for a second believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmed to be a Prophet of God... or any other thing for that matter, having rejected the Ahmadi beliefs all my life... may I ask you if the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) whom I consider the final prophet and messenger could also raise the pen through the air as you've suggested.
#96 Posted by Netizen on September 14, 2007 12:14:51 pm
Re: # 94
urstruly:
"Being agnostic is not a position. Have you ever doubted that the computer screen sitting right in front is not a computer screen at all. "
do you believe that an atheist thinks that there is no computer screen in front of him as he is surfing the web!
or a polytheist believes that there are 2.5 millions of them in front of him?
Let me rephrase my earlier post to you.
I cannot say convincingly that there is a god or not. It seems that you are very convinces about the existence of only one god who runs the entire universe. hence would you please tell me how it works and why he/she/it is the only one.
urstruly:
"Being agnostic is not a position. Have you ever doubted that the computer screen sitting right in front is not a computer screen at all. "
do you believe that an atheist thinks that there is no computer screen in front of him as he is surfing the web!
or a polytheist believes that there are 2.5 millions of them in front of him?
Let me rephrase my earlier post to you.
I cannot say convincingly that there is a god or not. It seems that you are very convinces about the existence of only one god who runs the entire universe. hence would you please tell me how it works and why he/she/it is the only one.
#95 Posted by KaalChakra on September 14, 2007 11:53:33 am
ts sahib
Yes. Unorthodox approaches appeared thoroughly unsatisfactory (to me). They never provided anything new, didn't explain anything of substance (beyond offering confined views of their own little niches), and totally failed to do justice to either the great faith or to its many many believers.
Developing an orthodox understanding meant going to the heart of the matter, and from there, one could see everything else flowing out, as it were, in its own merry way.
At another time, would love to get your informed opinion on these and other matters.
Best regards.
--------------
tahmedji
That posed this quandary. Are many of those flying around on beautiful wings just.... pigs (of some sort)?
LOL
(That is not meant to offend anyone - Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Isai. Just a crazy thought.).
Yes. Unorthodox approaches appeared thoroughly unsatisfactory (to me). They never provided anything new, didn't explain anything of substance (beyond offering confined views of their own little niches), and totally failed to do justice to either the great faith or to its many many believers.
Developing an orthodox understanding meant going to the heart of the matter, and from there, one could see everything else flowing out, as it were, in its own merry way.
At another time, would love to get your informed opinion on these and other matters.
Best regards.
--------------
tahmedji
That posed this quandary. Are many of those flying around on beautiful wings just.... pigs (of some sort)?
LOL
(That is not meant to offend anyone - Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Isai. Just a crazy thought.).
#94 Posted by Urstruly on September 14, 2007 11:52:20 am
Re: # 90 Netizen
Being agnostic is not a position. Have you ever doubted that the computer screen sitting right in front is not a computer screen at all. Have such doubt ever crossed your mind that it in fact is a cow that eats and regurgitates electricity? Or the computer screen in front of you is only "partially" computer screen and rest of it is an egg. If you are an agnostic then what has made you so sure of the existence of the computer in front of you.
Being agnostic is not a position. Have you ever doubted that the computer screen sitting right in front is not a computer screen at all. Have such doubt ever crossed your mind that it in fact is a cow that eats and regurgitates electricity? Or the computer screen in front of you is only "partially" computer screen and rest of it is an egg. If you are an agnostic then what has made you so sure of the existence of the computer in front of you.
#93 Posted by Urstruly on September 14, 2007 11:47:15 am
Re: # 89
I did not ignore your "questioning" but the following statement of yours does not constitute as questioning. In that statement you are only telling me your own position on the issue of the Absolute Truth. So what is the question?
"urstruly: it is not for humans to know the Absolute Truth. You need to understand the difference between Belief and Knowledge - since only then can you be intellectually honest and a believer at the same time. "
I did not ignore your "questioning" but the following statement of yours does not constitute as questioning. In that statement you are only telling me your own position on the issue of the Absolute Truth. So what is the question?
"urstruly: it is not for humans to know the Absolute Truth. You need to understand the difference between Belief and Knowledge - since only then can you be intellectually honest and a believer at the same time. "
#92 Posted by Netizen on September 14, 2007 11:23:14 am
Re: # 83
tahmed:
"it is not for humans to know the Absolute Truth."
why not??
are humans supposed to know no truth at all or just partial truth?
tahmed:
"it is not for humans to know the Absolute Truth."
why not??
are humans supposed to know no truth at all or just partial truth?
#91 Posted by okhla99 on September 14, 2007 11:23:04 am
#83 Bro Tahmed
How can one be intellectually honest if one is not a true believer???
How can one be a true believer if one is not intellectually honest???
How can one be intellectually honest if one is not a true believer???
How can one be a true believer if one is not intellectually honest???
#90 Posted by Netizen on September 14, 2007 11:11:30 am
Re: # 85
" There are only three possibilities"
what if I say I am an agnostic?
" There are only three possibilities"
what if I say I am an agnostic?
#89 Posted by tahmed32 on September 14, 2007 11:02:50 am
urstruly: you ignored my questioning your assumption that you knew the "Absolute Truth". is it that hard to acknowledge the obvious?
#88 Posted by tahmed32 on September 14, 2007 10:59:29 am
Kaalchakra:
naqshbandi says he is a scientist.
jayp says he is an engineer.
naqshbandi says a sufi can make dead parrots walk.
jayp says killing goats can help planes fly.
Moral: getting science or engineering degrees does not mean that pigs dont have wings. or something like that. :-)
naqshbandi says he is a scientist.
jayp says he is an engineer.
naqshbandi says a sufi can make dead parrots walk.
jayp says killing goats can help planes fly.
Moral: getting science or engineering degrees does not mean that pigs dont have wings. or something like that. :-)
#87 Posted by thinkingstorm on September 14, 2007 10:48:56 am
Usman the pious,
I see that you have seen fit to learn the more "orthodox" version of Islam. To each his own my gentle friend :)
with much respect,
thinking storm
I see that you have seen fit to learn the more "orthodox" version of Islam. To each his own my gentle friend :)
with much respect,
thinking storm
#86 Posted by KaalChakra on September 14, 2007 10:46:53 am
ts sahib, I take that as a great, although undeserved, compliment. Thanks. Whatever little I have learnt is from the abu bakr of chowk, zee ustaad, whom I genuinely admire. :)
#85 Posted by Urstruly on September 14, 2007 10:35:16 am
Re: # 81 Netizen
In order to focus our dicussion, may I ask whether you are speaking from the position of a polytheist or an atheist, because both take a diferrent argument respectively. The third position is that of a monotheist, which obviously is not your postion. There are only three possibilities.
In order to focus our dicussion, may I ask whether you are speaking from the position of a polytheist or an atheist, because both take a diferrent argument respectively. The third position is that of a monotheist, which obviously is not your postion. There are only three possibilities.
#84 Posted by Urstruly on September 14, 2007 10:30:15 am
Re: # 56 Dawa
I am great admirer of Pir Mehr Ali Shah Sahib. It is because of him that people in Punjab were saved from the Fitna-e-Quadiyaniat. As a matter of when Pir Sahib challeneged Mirza, the later was an undefeated champion on the manazra circuit in those days. Therefore, when Mirza lost the debate with Pir Sahib, it became the biggest news in Punjab and rest of Hindustan. May Allah bless Pir Sahib for his efforts.
Having said that please keep in mind that what traspired betweem Pir Sahib and Mirza was a debate. Manazra is a special kind of debate that goes like a dialogue of arguments and counter-arguments. The issue under debate was Mirza's claim that he was prophet of God; the counter argument, of course was, that he wasn't.
Now if you look at the nature of questions (or answers) that Pir Sahib posed to mirza, it will show the sheer genius of Pir Sahib.
For example consider this reply by Pir Sahib when he agreed to write the Tafseer of Qura'n as challenged by Mirza. Pir Sahib said " (yes lets sit down at tables and write tafseer but) whose pen raised in the air automatically and start writing the tafseer ..he will be the winner and the other will be a liar...."
Now look at this argument. This argument does not provide an industructible proof that Pir Sahib could definitely make his pen raise by itself therefore he challenged Miraz with this test. On the other hand we should see that Pir Sahib was claiming to be nothing but a mortal servant of God whereas Mirza's claim was that of Prophethood; so if things were to come to that that they actually sat on their respective tables and Mirza could not raise his pen by itself it would have falsified his claim of prophethood; whereas if pir sahib could not raise that pen it wouldn't even prove that he himself was a liar because he never claimed such thing. Mirza was trapped into his own net here.
A similar argument can be made with respect to Pir sahib's counter argument to jumping from the minaret of Badshahi mosque. In this case also the burden of proof that Mirza reached the ground safe and sound because he was prophet of God, lied entirely with Mirza. Had the things com to that and both gentlemen jumped from the minaret there was an equally likely chance that both would have died instantly. But in that case Islam would have gotten rid of an imposter and Pir Sahib would have become the martyr who made that happen. This is the genius of Pir Sahib. His argument though should not be construed as the proof that he had the ability to survive the 100 meter fall.
Here I must quote the immortal maxim which goes like thsi:
Pir Sahib nahinH uRtay, aqeedatmandt ki aqeedat unhain uRati hai
I am great admirer of Pir Mehr Ali Shah Sahib. It is because of him that people in Punjab were saved from the Fitna-e-Quadiyaniat. As a matter of when Pir Sahib challeneged Mirza, the later was an undefeated champion on the manazra circuit in those days. Therefore, when Mirza lost the debate with Pir Sahib, it became the biggest news in Punjab and rest of Hindustan. May Allah bless Pir Sahib for his efforts.
Having said that please keep in mind that what traspired betweem Pir Sahib and Mirza was a debate. Manazra is a special kind of debate that goes like a dialogue of arguments and counter-arguments. The issue under debate was Mirza's claim that he was prophet of God; the counter argument, of course was, that he wasn't.
Now if you look at the nature of questions (or answers) that Pir Sahib posed to mirza, it will show the sheer genius of Pir Sahib.
For example consider this reply by Pir Sahib when he agreed to write the Tafseer of Qura'n as challenged by Mirza. Pir Sahib said " (yes lets sit down at tables and write tafseer but) whose pen raised in the air automatically and start writing the tafseer ..he will be the winner and the other will be a liar...."
Now look at this argument. This argument does not provide an industructible proof that Pir Sahib could definitely make his pen raise by itself therefore he challenged Miraz with this test. On the other hand we should see that Pir Sahib was claiming to be nothing but a mortal servant of God whereas Mirza's claim was that of Prophethood; so if things were to come to that that they actually sat on their respective tables and Mirza could not raise his pen by itself it would have falsified his claim of prophethood; whereas if pir sahib could not raise that pen it wouldn't even prove that he himself was a liar because he never claimed such thing. Mirza was trapped into his own net here.
A similar argument can be made with respect to Pir sahib's counter argument to jumping from the minaret of Badshahi mosque. In this case also the burden of proof that Mirza reached the ground safe and sound because he was prophet of God, lied entirely with Mirza. Had the things com to that and both gentlemen jumped from the minaret there was an equally likely chance that both would have died instantly. But in that case Islam would have gotten rid of an imposter and Pir Sahib would have become the martyr who made that happen. This is the genius of Pir Sahib. His argument though should not be construed as the proof that he had the ability to survive the 100 meter fall.
Here I must quote the immortal maxim which goes like thsi:
Pir Sahib nahinH uRtay, aqeedatmandt ki aqeedat unhain uRati hai
#83 Posted by tahmed32 on September 14, 2007 10:01:01 am
urstruly: it is not for humans to know the Absolute Truth. You need to understand the difference between Belief and Knowledge - since only then can you be intellectually honest and a believer at the same time.
#82 Posted by thinkingstorm on September 14, 2007 9:58:42 am
#80 Kaal
Mashallah Kaal, you are almost a muslim by now. In fact I will give you a muslim name. Henceforth, I shall refer to you as Usman the pious.
You are absolutely correct in your statement that sufism should not be considered a better form of Islam which is inaccessible to the poor (actually sufism is spread heavily amongst the poor), but your point is valid.
In fact, sufism is not supposed to be an Islamic sect. It is just a spiritual and philosophical school of thought. Sufism is important for those that are interested in it. E.g. In some cases, Philosophy may not be of interest to a business man or engineer. However, not studying philosophy does not mean that the engineer cannot live a great moral, accomplished life either.
Usman the pious, hopefully I have been of some help.
with much respect,
thinking storm
Mashallah Kaal, you are almost a muslim by now. In fact I will give you a muslim name. Henceforth, I shall refer to you as Usman the pious.
You are absolutely correct in your statement that sufism should not be considered a better form of Islam which is inaccessible to the poor (actually sufism is spread heavily amongst the poor), but your point is valid.
In fact, sufism is not supposed to be an Islamic sect. It is just a spiritual and philosophical school of thought. Sufism is important for those that are interested in it. E.g. In some cases, Philosophy may not be of interest to a business man or engineer. However, not studying philosophy does not mean that the engineer cannot live a great moral, accomplished life either.
Usman the pious, hopefully I have been of some help.
with much respect,
thinking storm
#81 Posted by Netizen on September 14, 2007 9:48:27 am
Re: # 77
urstruly:
I have one serious question.
why to you say the following?
"..Absolute Truth that there is One Creator who created the whole universe"
why is that a "truth". can you convince me that there is only one god that has created this universe. I would like to listen to your reasoning.
"Those who deny this Truth, do it only because of their arrogance and arrogance alone."
it can be said the other way also, those who believe it because of their gullibility and gullibility alone. no?
thats incorrect. i would neither
urstruly:
I have one serious question.
why to you say the following?
"..Absolute Truth that there is One Creator who created the whole universe"
why is that a "truth". can you convince me that there is only one god that has created this universe. I would like to listen to your reasoning.
"Those who deny this Truth, do it only because of their arrogance and arrogance alone."
it can be said the other way also, those who believe it because of their gullibility and gullibility alone. no?
thats incorrect. i would neither
#80 Posted by KaalChakra on September 14, 2007 9:23:50 am
Urstruly,
"The classical work such as that of Rumi and Saadi is pretty secular and English versions are vailable on the net."
That's precisely right. Many Muslims (like many others following other religions) often wrote great secular literature - be it poetry or semi-philosophical/mystical tracts. In their personal lives they may nor may not have been 'good Muslims.' But to take all this secular, semi-philosophical/mystical literature and label it as the harbinger of some improved (or distorted) form of Islam not available to "ordinary" Muslims (or any to followers of other religions) is simply wrong.
"The classical work such as that of Rumi and Saadi is pretty secular and English versions are vailable on the net."
That's precisely right. Many Muslims (like many others following other religions) often wrote great secular literature - be it poetry or semi-philosophical/mystical tracts. In their personal lives they may nor may not have been 'good Muslims.' But to take all this secular, semi-philosophical/mystical literature and label it as the harbinger of some improved (or distorted) form of Islam not available to "ordinary" Muslims (or any to followers of other religions) is simply wrong.
#79 Posted by Urstruly on September 14, 2007 9:04:56 am
Re: # 78
I wouldn't call them missionaries but since the source and benchmark for ethics, ettiquettes, and morals for Muslims is their religion and religion alone, those writers could not help but inject religious ethics into their work. At that time Muslims were free and were not suffering from the inferiority complex that has infected them after colonial occupation which is exhibited all too often by those who call themselves "enlightened moderates".
But what I said about the eraly writers is not the rule but exception. The classical work such as that of Rumi and Saadi is pretty secular and English versions are vailable on the net. it basically addresses the human nature - the nature of jealousy, greed, indignation, cruelty, humility, truthfulness, charity, generosity and of course piety.
I wouldn't call them missionaries but since the source and benchmark for ethics, ettiquettes, and morals for Muslims is their religion and religion alone, those writers could not help but inject religious ethics into their work. At that time Muslims were free and were not suffering from the inferiority complex that has infected them after colonial occupation which is exhibited all too often by those who call themselves "enlightened moderates".
But what I said about the eraly writers is not the rule but exception. The classical work such as that of Rumi and Saadi is pretty secular and English versions are vailable on the net. it basically addresses the human nature - the nature of jealousy, greed, indignation, cruelty, humility, truthfulness, charity, generosity and of course piety.
#78 Posted by KaalChakra on September 14, 2007 8:51:28 am
Urstruly, well said. I wouldn't call these people Deepak Chopras and Stephen Coveys though. They were more like Christian Missionaries of today, who also provide all kinds of psychological and otrher worldly support services to their gathered flocks.
------------------------------
tahmedji,
That sacrificing goats things is a great parallel. Here is a semi-humorous way, IMO, to look at three very different approaches.
Islamic Way: Sacrificing goats to keep planes from crashing is absurd and wrong. It should not be done. If some Muslims are doing so, they are not following Islam properly. It is a cultural practice that people must get rid of. Such practices can lead people astray.
Hindu Way: Sacrificing goats to keep planes from crashing seems absurd and wrong. I would not do it. Some Hindus might be doing this sort of stuff. People believe in all kinds of things. Faith is not a logical thing, and some people will try anything if they can't solve a problem.
Sufi Way: Yes. Sacrificing goats keeps planes from crashing. But these must be a Sufi fed, sufi blessed goats.
------------------------------
tahmedji,
That sacrificing goats things is a great parallel. Here is a semi-humorous way, IMO, to look at three very different approaches.
Islamic Way: Sacrificing goats to keep planes from crashing is absurd and wrong. It should not be done. If some Muslims are doing so, they are not following Islam properly. It is a cultural practice that people must get rid of. Such practices can lead people astray.
Hindu Way: Sacrificing goats to keep planes from crashing seems absurd and wrong. I would not do it. Some Hindus might be doing this sort of stuff. People believe in all kinds of things. Faith is not a logical thing, and some people will try anything if they can't solve a problem.
Sufi Way: Yes. Sacrificing goats keeps planes from crashing. But these must be a Sufi fed, sufi blessed goats.
#77 Posted by Urstruly on September 14, 2007 8:40:04 am
There are four facts that should be kept in mind before doing anything with such stories:
Fact#1:
There are many ESP phenomenon that have been recognized, recorded and are under investigation by psychologists and parapsychologists throughout the world. However, establishing a link between one's piety resulting in enhanced ESP ability is going to take a lot of work. For details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-sensory_perception
Fact #2:
Most of literature intended for self-improvement and teaching ethics to readers, that was written in the middle ages by Muslim scholars and writers, was written in allegorical style. There were parables where humans and animals could talk to each other etc. But each story ended with a moral at the end. These writers were the Deepak chopras and Stephen Coveys of their time. A classical example is that of Sheikh Saadi's compendiums Gulistan and Boo-istan. Since printing press arrived in Muslim world quite late so the medium to disseminate those collection of literary works to the masses was mostly verbal. So the people with weak imaan beguiled by chrlatans started beleiving those stroies to be true. substance of stories took over the soul or moral of the stories.
Fact#3
It is a fact that throughout Muslim world, unfortunately worshiping graves and mere mortals because of their real or perceived piety is a business that would make a capitalist salivate his innards out. So it is in the very interest of those who benefit from the fall of this manna from heaven to disseminate misinformation to illiterate people and those with week imaan.
Fact #4
There is no Muslim in the world that has belief in Islam because Holy prophet (pbuh) performed miracles. Every Muslim who has a strong belief, believes in islam because it puts forth the Absolute Truth that there is One Creator who created the whole universe. That is all there is to Islam. No one needs a miracle to prove this self evident Truth. Those who deny this Truth, do it only because of their arrogance and arrogance alone. So our Iman should only be based upon this self evident Truth and not because some pir can fly on his broom.
Fact#1:
There are many ESP phenomenon that have been recognized, recorded and are under investigation by psychologists and parapsychologists throughout the world. However, establishing a link between one's piety resulting in enhanced ESP ability is going to take a lot of work. For details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-sensory_perception
Fact #2:
Most of literature intended for self-improvement and teaching ethics to readers, that was written in the middle ages by Muslim scholars and writers, was written in allegorical style. There were parables where humans and animals could talk to each other etc. But each story ended with a moral at the end. These writers were the Deepak chopras and Stephen Coveys of their time. A classical example is that of Sheikh Saadi's compendiums Gulistan and Boo-istan. Since printing press arrived in Muslim world quite late so the medium to disseminate those collection of literary works to the masses was mostly verbal. So the people with weak imaan beguiled by chrlatans started beleiving those stroies to be true. substance of stories took over the soul or moral of the stories.
Fact#3
It is a fact that throughout Muslim world, unfortunately worshiping graves and mere mortals because of their real or perceived piety is a business that would make a capitalist salivate his innards out. So it is in the very interest of those who benefit from the fall of this manna from heaven to disseminate misinformation to illiterate people and those with week imaan.
Fact #4
There is no Muslim in the world that has belief in Islam because Holy prophet (pbuh) performed miracles. Every Muslim who has a strong belief, believes in islam because it puts forth the Absolute Truth that there is One Creator who created the whole universe. That is all there is to Islam. No one needs a miracle to prove this self evident Truth. Those who deny this Truth, do it only because of their arrogance and arrogance alone. So our Iman should only be based upon this self evident Truth and not because some pir can fly on his broom.
#76 Posted by KaalChakra on September 14, 2007 8:17:14 am
Jayp, does sacrificing goats keep planes from crashing? Yes, may be, or no?
Please share, so we can all see if you are an educated sufi (or an educated Hindu or an educated Muslim).
Please share, so we can all see if you are an educated sufi (or an educated Hindu or an educated Muslim).
#75 Posted by tahmed32 on September 14, 2007 8:04:59 am
#73 Kaalchakra: You post to jayp would indicate that you are talking to a rational man. However: Ask jayp about how sacrificing goats keeps planes from crashing. He is no better than naqshbandi in this regard, and plenty worse in other worse - at least naqshbandi has not spent 10 years on chowk berating hinduism or India. On casteism, both are at the same level.
#74 Posted by MantoLives on September 14, 2007 7:45:50 am
Asif,
Thanks for these beautiful stories. The second one especially. I don't know if I believe these stories but I certainly agree with the message.
The life of Zainulabideen (A.S.) is about nobility and character in face of the worst abuse, harassment and humiliation.
He is a source of great strength for all those people who routinely take humiliation and insult in their stride and keep moving forward.
Thanks for these beautiful stories. The second one especially. I don't know if I believe these stories but I certainly agree with the message.
The life of Zainulabideen (A.S.) is about nobility and character in face of the worst abuse, harassment and humiliation.
He is a source of great strength for all those people who routinely take humiliation and insult in their stride and keep moving forward.
#73 Posted by KaalChakra on September 14, 2007 7:22:18 am
jayp
The greatest Muslim saint Shaykh Sayyid Abdul Qadir Jilani will spin faster than a ceiling fan in his sacred grave to find you pulling naqsh back into Hindu philosophy with maya and stuff :(
jayp, sufism has no value at all - none for a Muslim and none for a Hindu - without those deboned chickens ACTUALLY flying. And those chickens will not fly without naqsh bhai doing all those things that make you unhappy.
If you are a good person, you will reach the heaven faster, but it will be a different heaven than the one to which naqsh bhai is headed, with his flying chickens.
The greatest Muslim saint Shaykh Sayyid Abdul Qadir Jilani will spin faster than a ceiling fan in his sacred grave to find you pulling naqsh back into Hindu philosophy with maya and stuff :(
jayp, sufism has no value at all - none for a Muslim and none for a Hindu - without those deboned chickens ACTUALLY flying. And those chickens will not fly without naqsh bhai doing all those things that make you unhappy.
If you are a good person, you will reach the heaven faster, but it will be a different heaven than the one to which naqsh bhai is headed, with his flying chickens.
#72 Posted by zeemax on September 14, 2007 6:48:06 am
How amazing is it that Dawa Behen is loved by ALL ... just as cliftonbridge is ... these are our two true clear-headed mominas who can act as 'bridges'!
Dawa Behen as a bridge between the sufis and the 'extremists', and cliftonbridge as between them and all the rest!!!
Godbless ... Dawa Behen and cliftonbridge.
Dawa Behen as a bridge between the sufis and the 'extremists', and cliftonbridge as between them and all the rest!!!
Godbless ... Dawa Behen and cliftonbridge.
#71 Posted by zeemax on September 14, 2007 6:40:15 am
#60 Posted by jayp.
There will be only helicopter attackers in waziristan with all troops removed from the tribal area.
Err ... only till they starting using the 'stingers' which they have, but are not using for strategic reasons.
There will be only helicopter attackers in waziristan with all troops removed from the tribal area.
Err ... only till they starting using the 'stingers' which they have, but are not using for strategic reasons.
#70 Posted by tahmed32 on September 14, 2007 6:37:25 am
further to #69: actually, you may be on to something with this sufi-bird connection. Birds can, it has been scientifically demonstrated, see outside the spectrum of visible light - and thus see patterns in flowers in unltraviolet colors, e.g., that humans cannot see. So, clearly sufis are descendant not from human beings but from birds!! I see the light now. :-)
#69 Posted by tahmed32 on September 14, 2007 6:32:03 am
Naqshbandi: And all along when I was arguing with you, I was arguing with a man who believes that sufis can make dead parrots walk (can they make it talk as well?), and that sufis can see outside the spectrum of light that we humans can see!! I knew chowk was a waste of time, but never expected this..... :-(
Morality is doing what is right, regardless what we are told.
Religious dogma is doing what we are told, no matter what is right."
Morality is doing what is right, regardless what we are told.
Religious dogma is doing what we are told, no matter what is right."
#68 Posted by majumdar on September 14, 2007 6:24:29 am
Dawa behen,
(so if bani israel prophets like jesus(as) have given the power of bringing dead to life....why not Sh Jilani and Pir Mahar Ali Shah....as quoted in above hadees... )
Why not Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani.
Regards
(so if bani israel prophets like jesus(as) have given the power of bringing dead to life....why not Sh Jilani and Pir Mahar Ali Shah....as quoted in above hadees... )
Why not Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani.
Regards
#67 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 6:16:34 am
there is a hadees of prophet(pbuh) that....
the ulema and aulia of my ummah are like the prophets of Bani Israel....
so if bani israel prophets like jesus(as) have given the power of bringing dead to life....why not Sh Jilani and Pir Mahar Ali Shah....as quoted in above hadees...
the ulema and aulia of my ummah are like the prophets of Bani Israel....
so if bani israel prophets like jesus(as) have given the power of bringing dead to life....why not Sh Jilani and Pir Mahar Ali Shah....as quoted in above hadees...
#66 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 14, 2007 6:14:48 am
Re: # 62 thankyou Naqshbandi sahab....
I personally not against any sect ...or with 100% any sect...
i think all depends upon your intention or niyyat....
i personally think.may be it is wrong..there are many moderate wahabis..and there are many extremists Brelvis..who put fatwas factories of kufr etc...
all depends upon personal itention...
Unfortunately...scholars of saudia..i very much respect them...but they have relatively low tolerance level...for other opinions....and they try to impose thier views ....
difernce of opinion is the beauty of any society and must be kept in limits...
I personally not against any sect ...or with 100% any sect...
i think all depends upon your intention or niyyat....
i personally think.may be it is wrong..there are many moderate wahabis..and there are many extremists Brelvis..who put fatwas factories of kufr etc...
all depends upon personal itention...
Unfortunately...scholars of saudia..i very much respect them...but they have relatively low tolerance level...for other opinions....and they try to impose thier views ....
difernce of opinion is the beauty of any society and must be kept in limits...
#64 Posted by hamidm2 on September 14, 2007 5:07:36 am
Re: # 62
naqshbandi,
..... please quit while you are ahead and stop making a fool out of yourself ....... as i have said before, your brand of islam is much better than the joyless and beligerent wahabsim promoted by suicidal homiciders like zeemax and urstruly, but you don't have to turn it into a farce ........ let me assure you that a dead parrot can never fly again ....
..... i know it is ramadhan and muslims are supposed to stave themselves, but i would recommend that you eat something before you loose your mind completely ..........
....... i wish you well, even though you are embarassing me ....
naqshbandi,
..... please quit while you are ahead and stop making a fool out of yourself ....... as i have said before, your brand of islam is much better than the joyless and beligerent wahabsim promoted by suicidal homiciders like zeemax and urstruly, but you don't have to turn it into a farce ........ let me assure you that a dead parrot can never fly again ....
..... i know it is ramadhan and muslims are supposed to stave themselves, but i would recommend that you eat something before you loose your mind completely ..........
....... i wish you well, even though you are embarassing me ....
#63 Posted by majumdar on September 14, 2007 4:33:32 am
Naqsh sahib,
(walked up to where the dead parrot lay on the floor and put his tasbih on it. the parrot came back to life and flew away.)
You actually believe this happened???
(as bro dawa e dil has shown. )
its sis dawa e dil actually.
Regards
(walked up to where the dead parrot lay on the floor and put his tasbih on it. the parrot came back to life and flew away.)
You actually believe this happened???
(as bro dawa e dil has shown. )
its sis dawa e dil actually.
Regards
#62 Posted by Naqshbandi on September 14, 2007 3:37:45 am
Re: # 56
dawa e dil thank you so much for mentioning the glorious name of huzoor sayyid al sa'adat khwaja e khwajagan pir sayyid mihr ali shah golrawi rahmatullah alayhi and his karamat!
once also pir sayyid mihr ali shah sahib were coming back from hajj on a ship and on that ship there was also an english general with his rifle. someone had a little parrot on the ship which was sitting on a wooden perch. pir sahib had a tasbih. pir sahib and the general got talking and the general mocked the tasbih of the pir sahib saying, 'what power is in that tasbih, why do you keep on counting the beads?' pir sahib didn't say anything and kept on doing his zikr. the general carried on talking boasting about the power of his rifle. see this rifle he said, this is what contains real power and he pointed his rifle at the parrot on the perch and shot it dead. 'that's the power of my rifle ' he said mockingly to pir sahib, what is the power of your tasbih. hazrat pir sayyid mihr ali shah sahib, walked up to where the dead parrot lay on the floor and put his tasbih on it. the parrot came back to life and flew away. 'that is the power of my tasbih' said pir sahib! the army officer became a muslim and a murid of qibla pir sayyid mihr ali shah sahib!
subhan Allah! what a beautiful saint of Allah he was who completely defeated the dajjal from Qadian too as bro dawa e dil has shown.
dawa e dil thank you so much for mentioning the glorious name of huzoor sayyid al sa'adat khwaja e khwajagan pir sayyid mihr ali shah golrawi rahmatullah alayhi and his karamat!
once also pir sayyid mihr ali shah sahib were coming back from hajj on a ship and on that ship there was also an english general with his rifle. someone had a little parrot on the ship which was sitting on a wooden perch. pir sahib had a tasbih. pir sahib and the general got talking and the general mocked the tasbih of the pir sahib saying, 'what power is in that tasbih, why do you keep on counting the beads?' pir sahib didn't say anything and kept on doing his zikr. the general carried on talking boasting about the power of his rifle. see this rifle he said, this is what contains real power and he pointed his rifle at the parrot on the perch and shot it dead. 'that's the power of my rifle ' he said mockingly to pir sahib, what is the power of your tasbih. hazrat pir sayyid mihr ali shah sahib, walked up to where the dead parrot lay on the floor and put his tasbih on it. the parrot came back to life and flew away. 'that is the power of my tasbih' said pir sahib! the army officer became a muslim and a murid of qibla pir sayyid mihr ali shah sahib!
subhan Allah! what a beautiful saint of Allah he was who completely defeated the dajjal from Qadian too as bro dawa e dil has shown.
#61 Posted by jayp on September 14, 2007 2:20:40 am
Nasqbandi #39
Hai, you seem to be a real sufi and I agree with most of what you say. You are not saying the stuff properly.
The world as we see is an interpretation that we have acquired since birth. We have been told what is important, what is unimportant, and we have been taught to focus on certain aspects of what we sense. For example, a botanist wlaking in park will see different things than engineer. An arb with 200 words for camel will see something very diffrent than some one who sees a camel for the first time.
So the world we live in is created by each person through a precess of selective focus and interpretation that influences our perception. This is "maya", which many call as illusion. ( this is absolutely wrong, illusion is something not real, while maya is the reality itself, interpreted as a version of reality ).
It is possible that through systematic training and meditation, one can alter the interpretation and thus the perception of what is out there through our senses. It may be possible to experience god, to talk to the dead, travel through time, see the furture...you name it.
The problem though is that to follow this path one has to believe in it, that such things are possible. Because we are talking about the realm of subjective experience there may not be any objective proof, and hence cannot be "scientific". Nasq...I am all along with you and tell me what sufism leads you into.
I do not have much trust in you, because you are an anti ahmadia, you are not open minded, and as such I may reach sufi heaven earlier than you.
Hai, you seem to be a real sufi and I agree with most of what you say. You are not saying the stuff properly.
The world as we see is an interpretation that we have acquired since birth. We have been told what is important, what is unimportant, and we have been taught to focus on certain aspects of what we sense. For example, a botanist wlaking in park will see different things than engineer. An arb with 200 words for camel will see something very diffrent than some one who sees a camel for the first time.
So the world we live in is created by each person through a precess of selective focus and interpretation that influences our perception. This is "maya", which many call as illusion. ( this is absolutely wrong, illusion is something not real, while maya is the reality itself, interpreted as a version of reality ).
It is possible that through systematic training and meditation, one can alter the interpretation and thus the perception of what is out there through our senses. It may be possible to experience god, to talk to the dead, travel through time, see the furture...you name it.
The problem though is that to follow this path one has to believe in it, that such things are possible. Because we are talking about the realm of subjective experience there may not be any objective proof, and hence cannot be "scientific". Nasq...I am all along with you and tell me what sufism leads you into.
I do not have much trust in you, because you are an anti ahmadia, you are not open minded, and as such I may reach sufi heaven earlier than you.
#60 Posted by jayp on September 14, 2007 1:24:31 am
Discussion about sufism is the most irrelevant at present. The lal majid guys have attacked the elite pak military that attacked lal masjid. This is no more attack on the civilians, or the military in general, this is search and destry mission by the jihadis so that no military will dare to take them on in the future.
This is a challenge of immense magnitude and pak military will not be able to take this on. With more and more troops being taken prisoners, pak army is likely to surrender.
There will be only helicopter attackers in waziristan with all troops removed from the tribal area.
This is a challenge of immense magnitude and pak military will not be able to take this on. With more and more troops being taken prisoners, pak army is likely to surrender.
There will be only helicopter attackers in waziristan with all troops removed from the tribal area.
#59 Posted by laddu on September 14, 2007 12:46:04 am
Re: # 37
That is the problem with Islam of the Pakistanis.
For them there has to be an onject of Love which they claim to be an imagined formless moon God.
Lahol...... can there be anything more absurd than this concept of love for that imagined moon deity??
Prema or Love in itself is required to attain the truth. Prema dose not require an OBJECT ....howsoever absurd that object may be ......
As it is said dhai akhar prem ka padhe jo pundit hoi .....
these mullahs do not understand that Prema itself is the way towards emergence of light in the heart and realization of the atman.
Prema does not require an absurd object like the fomrless moon deity of Arab.
That is the problem with Islam of the Pakistanis.
For them there has to be an onject of Love which they claim to be an imagined formless moon God.
Lahol...... can there be anything more absurd than this concept of love for that imagined moon deity??
Prema or Love in itself is required to attain the truth. Prema dose not require an OBJECT ....howsoever absurd that object may be ......
As it is said dhai akhar prem ka padhe jo pundit hoi .....
these mullahs do not understand that Prema itself is the way towards emergence of light in the heart and realization of the atman.
Prema does not require an absurd object like the fomrless moon deity of Arab.
#58 Posted by jayp on September 14, 2007 12:45:42 am
Dost mitter 52,
My understanding, which I find conceptually sound is that brahma is the creator in a metahysical, ineffable sense that he is the creator of the shiva and vishnu as well. That is why there are no temples ( except bar one ) for brahma, because brahma is inconceivable, ineffable and as such no image can be created. May be one day I have to see the brahma temple in simla and see the image.
For all the humans and in a physical sense, shiva is the creator, because nothing can be created without destroying something else.
There are various statues of the dance of the shiva, and it is the dance that creates and destroys, hence when you buy a "nataraja" statue, check the pose some are good some are "bad" for the house you that keeps it.
Form
My understanding, which I find conceptually sound is that brahma is the creator in a metahysical, ineffable sense that he is the creator of the shiva and vishnu as well. That is why there are no temples ( except bar one ) for brahma, because brahma is inconceivable, ineffable and as such no image can be created. May be one day I have to see the brahma temple in simla and see the image.
For all the humans and in a physical sense, shiva is the creator, because nothing can be created without destroying something else.
There are various statues of the dance of the shiva, and it is the dance that creates and destroys, hence when you buy a "nataraja" statue, check the pose some are good some are "bad" for the house you that keeps it.
Form
#57 Posted by thinkingstorm on September 13, 2007 11:47:24 pm
mashallah dawa-i-dil, you proved the living wali naqshbandi (may Allah exalt his status)'s point.
Unfortunately, I lack the brain power to explain these things to the doubting ganwar jahils who doubt these stories.
Thank you for the details and miracles of Peer Mahar Ali Shah.
with much respect,
thinking storm
Unfortunately, I lack the brain power to explain these things to the doubting ganwar jahils who doubt these stories.
Thank you for the details and miracles of Peer Mahar Ali Shah.
with much respect,
thinking storm
#56 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 11:42:27 pm
the point is contantly raised here ...for debne chicken became alive...
not go so far...i think in 1900 in india...Peer Mahar Ali Shah of Golra made a challenge to Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani that....of Manazra...about islam and Ahmediat...
Mirza Ghulam agreed....but ran from that Manazra ..as he not reached Lahore Railway Station while Mahar ali shah had reached....
he then said mahar ali...that both of us write a tafseer of quran...the best one will be judged by a neutral and he will be on truth
mahar ali replied...just we sit on two adjacents tables with papers in our front....whose pen raised in the air automatically and start writing the tafseer ..he will be the winner and the other will be a liar....
Ghulamahmed...trembled to hear that....
he then said to mahar ali .....we both do something special...mahar ali replied...both of us jump from the towering minarates of Badshahi Mosque of Lahore..a man who will reach the land safe and sound will be the winner...again ghulam ahmed ran....
then finally he said to mahar ali that...let us both pray for two sick persons..and the from which pray..a sick will recover ..will be the winner....
mahar ali replied...just forget about the sick...bring two dead persons...for one i pray..for one you pray...by which dua..dead man will raise to life again ..who will be winner....
and the Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani than ran in such a way that he never dared to challenge him...
Point is ..when Mehar Ali Shah ..by grace of Allah can show this ...why not Sh.Jilani...and when some person resisted aginst Mehar ali of bringing a dead to life..he replied....i coud even claim something greater than this....
not go so far...i think in 1900 in india...Peer Mahar Ali Shah of Golra made a challenge to Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiyani that....of Manazra...about islam and Ahmediat...
Mirza Ghulam agreed....but ran from that Manazra ..as he not reached Lahore Railway Station while Mahar ali shah had reached....
he then said mahar ali...that both of us write a tafseer of quran...the best one will be judged by a neutral and he will be on truth
mahar ali replied...just we sit on two adjacents tables with papers in our front....whose pen raised in the air automatically and start writing the tafseer ..he will be the winner and the other will be a liar....
Ghulamahmed...trembled to hear that....
he then said to mahar ali .....we both do something special...mahar ali replied...both of us jump from the towering minarates of Badshahi Mosque of Lahore..a man who will reach the land safe and sound will be the winner...again ghulam ahmed ran....
then finally he said to mahar ali that...let us both pray for two sick persons..and the from which pray..a sick will recover ..will be the winner....
mahar ali replied...just forget about the sick...bring two dead persons...for one i pray..for one you pray...by which dua..dead man will raise to life again ..who will be winner....
and the Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani than ran in such a way that he never dared to challenge him...
Point is ..when Mehar Ali Shah ..by grace of Allah can show this ...why not Sh.Jilani...and when some person resisted aginst Mehar ali of bringing a dead to life..he replied....i coud even claim something greater than this....
#55 Posted by muqaddam on September 13, 2007 10:56:19 pm
Re: # 49
Thanks, but I thought Muqarram Saheb of the Shahi Masjid was the one who people looked at for the signal
Thanks, but I thought Muqarram Saheb of the Shahi Masjid was the one who people looked at for the signal
#54 Posted by Naqshbandi on September 13, 2007 8:14:06 pm
i do believe them literally and why should it amaze you?
#53 Posted by KaalChakra on September 13, 2007 7:38:00 pm
dmsahib, I don't think naqsh bhai believes these stories to be literally true. On the other hand, if these stories are NOT true, then sufism is not needed. The Quran (and the Prophet's life as Quran instantiated for all Muslims) should be enough.
#52 Posted by dost_mittar on September 13, 2007 6:56:27 pm
Naqsh:
It amazes me how you can believe these stories literally. Anyway, I think that I would differ somewhat with you on your translation of 'baqa'. I think it means "what remains" (as in baqaya) and not "everlasting subsistence of God". This also seems to go more accurately with your parable.
jayp:
I thought that Shiva is Destroyer and the Creator function belongs to Brahma. No?
It amazes me how you can believe these stories literally. Anyway, I think that I would differ somewhat with you on your translation of 'baqa'. I think it means "what remains" (as in baqaya) and not "everlasting subsistence of God". This also seems to go more accurately with your parable.
jayp:
I thought that Shiva is Destroyer and the Creator function belongs to Brahma. No?
#51 Posted by thinkingstorm on September 13, 2007 3:53:54 pm
"javab e jaahilaan, khamushi baashad"
dear beloved wali Naqshbandi (may you be doused in ittar and smell so fragrant that bees mistake you for flowers. Ameen).
The Jaahil continue to pester me wali (ruh). They say, if you indeed use such a wonderful approach of "silence is golden" in retort to jahilliyah, then why did you tell certain gentle hindu brothers to go fuk themselves and stick things up thier arse#?
I tell them that you, in your great wisdom, must have a reason. But frankly, my gumrah brain cannot come up with a reason.
Please help.
with much respect,
thinking storm
dear beloved wali Naqshbandi (may you be doused in ittar and smell so fragrant that bees mistake you for flowers. Ameen).
The Jaahil continue to pester me wali (ruh). They say, if you indeed use such a wonderful approach of "silence is golden" in retort to jahilliyah, then why did you tell certain gentle hindu brothers to go fuk themselves and stick things up thier arse#?
I tell them that you, in your great wisdom, must have a reason. But frankly, my gumrah brain cannot come up with a reason.
Please help.
with much respect,
thinking storm
#50 Posted by Naqshbandi on September 13, 2007 3:48:34 pm
javab e jaahilaan, khamushi baashad.
preaching love doesn't mean equating truth with falsehood or believing falsehood to be equal to truth.
it is ramadan. i have my own sins to worry about. may Allah
forgive us all.
preaching love doesn't mean equating truth with falsehood or believing falsehood to be equal to truth.
it is ramadan. i have my own sins to worry about. may Allah
forgive us all.
#49 Posted by Shah2 on September 13, 2007 3:26:55 pm
INDIA
Ramadan month starts Friday: Imam Bukhari
New Delhi, September 12: The new moon for the holy month of Ramadan was not sighted Wednesday, so the first day of the month of fasting will fall Friday, according to the apex moon sighting committee of Jama Masjid.
[12-09, 20:30 IST]
Ramadan month starts Friday: Imam Bukhari
New Delhi, September 12: The new moon for the holy month of Ramadan was not sighted Wednesday, so the first day of the month of fasting will fall Friday, according to the apex moon sighting committee of Jama Masjid.
[12-09, 20:30 IST]
#48 Posted by thinkingstorm on September 13, 2007 2:22:50 pm
dear beloved living wali naqshbandi. May Allah exalt your status amongst chowkies, may Allah douse you in expensive fragrant but non alcoholic french perfumes. Ameen.
A question if I may.
Some foolish people have claimed that naqshi is in love with the idea of magic and miracles, and is in love with the sufi saints, but not the message of the sufis.
They offer for proof the fact that even this article is really about how great those sufi saints were and what magic they could perform, and yet offer little about the message of oneness and message of love.
They also state that if you indeed loved the message of sufism, you would not happily "Sect" yourself off as sunni or barelvi.
I am but a gumrah musalmaan. I beseech you to help me answer those gustaakh troublemakers.
I remain a humble living corpse,
with much respect,
thinking storm
A question if I may.
Some foolish people have claimed that naqshi is in love with the idea of magic and miracles, and is in love with the sufi saints, but not the message of the sufis.
They offer for proof the fact that even this article is really about how great those sufi saints were and what magic they could perform, and yet offer little about the message of oneness and message of love.
They also state that if you indeed loved the message of sufism, you would not happily "Sect" yourself off as sunni or barelvi.
I am but a gumrah musalmaan. I beseech you to help me answer those gustaakh troublemakers.
I remain a humble living corpse,
with much respect,
thinking storm
#47 Posted by Naqshbandi on September 13, 2007 1:02:52 pm
by cutting themselves off from the aqaid of majority of the orthodox sunnis wahabis ARE a sect and a heretical one too. they are the one's whom the Prophet described as those will recite the quran constantly on their tongues but it wouldnt go beneath their throats and that they will leave the Deen of Islam like an arrow leaves the bow.
#46 Posted by zeemax on September 13, 2007 12:47:42 pm
Kaal ...
As to what would make a deboned chicken fly .... you're seeing that all around you. No? But Naqshbandi can't. He's too busy in 'Zikr'. :)
As to what would make a deboned chicken fly .... you're seeing that all around you. No? But Naqshbandi can't. He's too busy in 'Zikr'. :)
#45 Posted by zeemax on September 13, 2007 12:44:05 pm
#40 Posted by Naqshbandi,
Wahabi is not a sect ... now start again!
Wahabi is not a sect ... now start again!
#43 Posted by KaalChakra on September 13, 2007 12:23:12 pm
Naqsh bhai, is there any way to see the entire EMS without first
1. Being Muslim with a sound aqidah.
2. Obeying Allah and fulfil the commands of Shariah.
3. Doing extra worship in addition to the fard and the sunnah i.e. superogatory worship.
4. Remembering Allah a lot --i.e. a lot of zikr?
What will you and I see then that we don't see now? Do you think we may be able to make deboned chicken fly?
-----------
Ok - this is a serious question, because as you would agree, doing all those four things (1. Being Muslim with a sound aqidah. 2. Obeying Allah and fulfil the commands of Shariah.
3. Doing extra worship in addition to the fard and the sunnah i.e. superogatory worship. 4. Remembering Allah a lot --i.e. a lot of zikr.) is the same type of EXPERIMENT as one would perform say in a lab one evening. :)
1. Being Muslim with a sound aqidah.
2. Obeying Allah and fulfil the commands of Shariah.
3. Doing extra worship in addition to the fard and the sunnah i.e. superogatory worship.
4. Remembering Allah a lot --i.e. a lot of zikr?
What will you and I see then that we don't see now? Do you think we may be able to make deboned chicken fly?
-----------
Ok - this is a serious question, because as you would agree, doing all those four things (1. Being Muslim with a sound aqidah. 2. Obeying Allah and fulfil the commands of Shariah.
3. Doing extra worship in addition to the fard and the sunnah i.e. superogatory worship. 4. Remembering Allah a lot --i.e. a lot of zikr.) is the same type of EXPERIMENT as one would perform say in a lab one evening. :)
#42 Posted by Naqshbandi on September 13, 2007 9:51:44 am
Kaal, the BEST exposition of this scientific method of sufism is by Imam Ghazali.
Why do I say scientific? Because science is based on falsiable experiments. If the experiments can be duplicated and the same results obtained by others as by the claimant then that hypothesis can be verified as being correct or false. Sufis have left full details of their Path. That is the experiment. It is up to others to follow it and see if the claims are true or not.
:-)
Why do I say scientific? Because science is based on falsiable experiments. If the experiments can be duplicated and the same results obtained by others as by the claimant then that hypothesis can be verified as being correct or false. Sufis have left full details of their Path. That is the experiment. It is up to others to follow it and see if the claims are true or not.
:-)
#41 Posted by Naqshbandi on September 13, 2007 9:46:27 am
Kaal:
The best way for me to explain it is by using the example of the eletromagnetic spectrum. Upto a few centuries ago we only knew of the visible light portion of the EMS and our experience was limited to that. As scientific knowledge increased and we developed better instruments we were able to detect other vast portions of the EMS at either end, infra-red and radio waves and ultra-violet and gamma rays etc.
The normal human existence corresponds to the visible light portion of the spectrum. The awliya (sufi saints) have access to a much wider range of the EMS. And the 'instruments' which permit them to do so are their purified souls. How do you purify your soul. That is an exact science which the practioners of sufism --awliya--have detailed in their books and not something 'hidden' or secret. It is summarised also in the hadith which dawa-e-dil recorded:
Abu Hurairah, radiyallahu 'anhu, reported that the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, said:
"Allah the Almighty has said: 'Whosoever acts with enmity towards a closer servant of Mine (wali), I will indeed declare war against him. Nothing endears My servant to Me than doing of what I have made obligatory upon him to do. And My servant continues to draw nearer to Me with supererogatory (nawafil) prayers so that I shall love him. When I love him, I shall be his hearing with which he shall hear, his sight with which he shall see, his hands with which he shall hold, and his feet with which he shall walk. And if he asks (something) of Me, I shall surely give it to him, and if he takes refuge in Me, I shall certainly grant him it.'"
[Al-Bukhari]
In short.
1. Be Muslim with a sound aqidah.
2. Obey Allah and fulfil the commands of Shariah.
3. Do extra worship in addition to the fard and the sunnah i.e. superogatory worship.
4. Remember Allah a lot --i.e. a lot of zikr.
These steps will help to purify the heart until the person can 'see' the entire EMS. This can be manifested in the wonders of which the article spake.
5. Having a spiritual guide by taking 'bayah' with a Sufi Shaykh greatly helps to traverse 2-4 and lead one to the higher spiritual stations of the soul.
The best way for me to explain it is by using the example of the eletromagnetic spectrum. Upto a few centuries ago we only knew of the visible light portion of the EMS and our experience was limited to that. As scientific knowledge increased and we developed better instruments we were able to detect other vast portions of the EMS at either end, infra-red and radio waves and ultra-violet and gamma rays etc.
The normal human existence corresponds to the visible light portion of the spectrum. The awliya (sufi saints) have access to a much wider range of the EMS. And the 'instruments' which permit them to do so are their purified souls. How do you purify your soul. That is an exact science which the practioners of sufism --awliya--have detailed in their books and not something 'hidden' or secret. It is summarised also in the hadith which dawa-e-dil recorded:
Abu Hurairah, radiyallahu 'anhu, reported that the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, said:
"Allah the Almighty has said: 'Whosoever acts with enmity towards a closer servant of Mine (wali), I will indeed declare war against him. Nothing endears My servant to Me than doing of what I have made obligatory upon him to do. And My servant continues to draw nearer to Me with supererogatory (nawafil) prayers so that I shall love him. When I love him, I shall be his hearing with which he shall hear, his sight with which he shall see, his hands with which he shall hold, and his feet with which he shall walk. And if he asks (something) of Me, I shall surely give it to him, and if he takes refuge in Me, I shall certainly grant him it.'"
[Al-Bukhari]
In short.
1. Be Muslim with a sound aqidah.
2. Obey Allah and fulfil the commands of Shariah.
3. Do extra worship in addition to the fard and the sunnah i.e. superogatory worship.
4. Remember Allah a lot --i.e. a lot of zikr.
These steps will help to purify the heart until the person can 'see' the entire EMS. This can be manifested in the wonders of which the article spake.
5. Having a spiritual guide by taking 'bayah' with a Sufi Shaykh greatly helps to traverse 2-4 and lead one to the higher spiritual stations of the soul.
#40 Posted by Naqshbandi on September 13, 2007 9:28:28 am
Wahabism: that sect of Muslims who follow the teachings of Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahab of Najd, Arabia--an 18th century preacher who was condemned by all the Islamic scholars throughout the world starting with his own brother, Shaykh Sulayman ibn Abd al Wahab. He condemnded largely the previous 1200 years of Islamic learning and scholarship and condemned most Muslims as polytheists and kafirs--except those who followed him ofcourse.
#39 Posted by Naqshbandi on September 13, 2007 9:23:45 am
Re: # 33
Read the works of the sufis themselves. Many of the more famous ones are now available in excellent English translations.
Above all:
1. What is Sufism? by Martin Lings. The best general introduction in my opinion for the general public.
2. The works of the greatest saint Shaykh Abdal Qadir Jilani may Allah be well pleased with him and with us for his sake!
http://www.al-baz.com/shaikhabdalqadir/Books_and_Text_of_Wisdom/books_a nd_text_of_wisdom.html
This last link is perfect.
What is the importance of relating such 'fantastical' tales of the saints? It is to encourage us that by obeying God and purifying ourselves we too can fulfil our full potential as human beings and therefore reach the elevated spiritual ranks for which we were created which is to worship God as if you see Him. Once we reach that level a whole another universe opens up and this material universe is shown for the limited 'dung heap' it was.
Read the works of the sufis themselves. Many of the more famous ones are now available in excellent English translations.
Above all:
1. What is Sufism? by Martin Lings. The best general introduction in my opinion for the general public.
2. The works of the greatest saint Shaykh Abdal Qadir Jilani may Allah be well pleased with him and with us for his sake!
http://www.al-baz.com/shaikhabdalqadir/Books_and_Text_of_Wisdom/books_a nd_text_of_wisdom.html
This last link is perfect.
What is the importance of relating such 'fantastical' tales of the saints? It is to encourage us that by obeying God and purifying ourselves we too can fulfil our full potential as human beings and therefore reach the elevated spiritual ranks for which we were created which is to worship God as if you see Him. Once we reach that level a whole another universe opens up and this material universe is shown for the limited 'dung heap' it was.
#38 Posted by KaalChakra on September 13, 2007 9:15:13 am
zee, a question to ask is whether people will let the greatest saint Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani Baghdadi live in their villages as he sat in his cots eating chicken if deboned chicken did not actually fly? ...
#37 Posted by zeemax on September 13, 2007 8:39:55 am
If love enters the heart? Love for what?
LoL ... Hahaha :)
LoL ... Hahaha :)
#36 Posted by zeemax on September 13, 2007 8:37:10 am
#33 Posted by KaalChakra
...there is nothing like wahabism ...
I had asked this question of the most eminent of ALL chowkies i.e, Saima Shah who had mentioned 'Wahabi' ... as to could anyone kindly explain to me exactly 'what' is wahabism? Since I sincerely honestly do not know ... And not a single response ... :(
...there is nothing like wahabism ...
I had asked this question of the most eminent of ALL chowkies i.e, Saima Shah who had mentioned 'Wahabi' ... as to could anyone kindly explain to me exactly 'what' is wahabism? Since I sincerely honestly do not know ... And not a single response ... :(
#35 Posted by KaalChakra on September 13, 2007 8:25:51 am
Jayp, many sufis may be offended that sufism is an Indian thing, any more than it is argentinian, or moroccan.
Yes, many sufis did their work in India, as dawa-i-dil rightly points out, and took up residence there.
Yes, many sufis did their work in India, as dawa-i-dil rightly points out, and took up residence there.
#34 Posted by muqaddam on September 13, 2007 8:11:12 am
dawa-i-dil, who is often vitriolic when it comes to the Hunud, is in his/her elements here displaying fair knowledge of the Quran.
One wishes dawa-i-dil was a Hindu, at least we would have had some enlightening critique on the Geeta.
One wishes dawa-i-dil was a Hindu, at least we would have had some enlightening critique on the Geeta.
#33 Posted by KaalChakra on September 13, 2007 8:04:20 am
laddu, there is nothing like wahabism. There is either Islam or there isn't. We can argue logically, if we convinced, that wahabism is not Islam, while sufism is.
If love enters the heart? Love for what?
------------
dawa-i-dil,
Nobody is questioning the undoubtedly great contributions of sufis in increasing Islamic population. All Muslims, regardless of background and affliation are united on that. It is the rest of the stuff that people are disagreeing over.
Did the greatest saint Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani Baghdadi REALLY make the deboned chicken fly on command, for instance? And if he did, what had the flying chicken to do with Islam, for another? If these are just stories, what Islamic lessons do they teach?
----------
Asif,
thinkingstorm gave some excellent references on Sufism, but his view seems to be somewhat different from yours. What authentic source or sources would you suggest for understanding sufi concepts, beliefs, and practices? Thanks.
If love enters the heart? Love for what?
------------
dawa-i-dil,
Nobody is questioning the undoubtedly great contributions of sufis in increasing Islamic population. All Muslims, regardless of background and affliation are united on that. It is the rest of the stuff that people are disagreeing over.
Did the greatest saint Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani Baghdadi REALLY make the deboned chicken fly on command, for instance? And if he did, what had the flying chicken to do with Islam, for another? If these are just stories, what Islamic lessons do they teach?
----------
Asif,
thinkingstorm gave some excellent references on Sufism, but his view seems to be somewhat different from yours. What authentic source or sources would you suggest for understanding sufi concepts, beliefs, and practices? Thanks.
#32 Posted by laddu on September 13, 2007 7:55:42 am
Sufis are hated by the 'pure' faithfuls of Pure Land because they have slowly and steadily been diluting the agenda of hatred against idolators and kafirs.
Mullah Islam survives on hatred towards non muslims and attributing conspiracies towards non - muslims. If love enters the heart, then mullahs would never be able to spread their message of hatred.
Mullah Islam survives on hatred towards non muslims and attributing conspiracies towards non - muslims. If love enters the heart, then mullahs would never be able to spread their message of hatred.
#31 Posted by laddu on September 13, 2007 7:41:52 am
Sufis have been left un attended by these moududi lovers because the hate agenda of eliminating idolators has still not been completed.
But some times these faithfuls consider the munafiqoons a greater threat because they exist inside the Islam and slowly dilutes their cult of hate. That is why these munafiqoons may become the first targets of hate in Islam.
Aurangazeb was clear about it and showed the way to all the Pakistanis.
But some times these faithfuls consider the munafiqoons a greater threat because they exist inside the Islam and slowly dilutes their cult of hate. That is why these munafiqoons may become the first targets of hate in Islam.
Aurangazeb was clear about it and showed the way to all the Pakistanis.
#30 Posted by laddu on September 13, 2007 7:36:21 am
Sufis are munafiqoons.
Ask any one of the Wahabbis and Moududi lovers in Pakistan.
They would tell you that sufis would be the next in the line of fire after the Mirzais.
Ask any one of the Wahabbis and Moududi lovers in Pakistan.
They would tell you that sufis would be the next in the line of fire after the Mirzais.
#29 Posted by zeemax on September 13, 2007 7:35:59 am
#7-28 Posted by dawa-i-dil,
Excellent ... particularly #28. You are great !!!
Excellent ... particularly #28. You are great !!!
#28 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:15:22 am
true..but blame is on present days “sufia� in habit of eating money…nazranai…chanda…dancing madly over qawalis…and thursday …arrival at the grave etc etc….
it has nothing to do with mysticism…this is just fraud …and whatsoever you call it….
Iqbal..is one of the strongest critic of such “sufism� and oppose it strictly…by saying…..
nikal kat khankaho sai katr ada Rasme-e-Shabiri….
it has nothing to do with mysticism…this is just fraud …and whatsoever you call it….
Iqbal..is one of the strongest critic of such “sufism� and oppose it strictly…by saying…..
nikal kat khankaho sai katr ada Rasme-e-Shabiri….
#27 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:14:59 am
Sufias are great..and thier efforts for islam is far far greater than those scholars who ..unfortunatley..put a fatwa of “DEVIANT� on them…They have made billions of people as muslims..but Fatwa givers have only created hatred ..nothing else…
#26 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:14:42 am
point is…diffrences of opinion is the beauty of a society..but fatwas typo things are not right…..The same saudi mind..is willing to low..innocent women and children in Iraq…not only to one sect..but also to Kurds children ..in Karkuk…..although they belong to sunni school of thought…
which islam allows you to kill innocents…..
which islam allows you to kill innocents…..
#25 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:14:23 am
I am not blaming any scholars liek Ibne Tamiyya..or iBNE jAUZI..ETC ETC…BUT UNFORTUNATELY..STILL…THE SCHOLARS OF SAUDIA..DO THE SAME…AND STRT IMMEDIATE FATWAS OF KUFR AND BIDDAH ON ANY ACT..WHICH ACCORDING TO THEM IS NOT IN qURAN OR bUKHARI sHAREEF…AS THEY ALSO DO “Taqleed� OF iBNE tAMIYYAH..iBNE jAUZI..OR iMAM ZAHABI
#24 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:14:06 am
His famoust rather master pieces like Fasoosul Hakam..and “Fathoohatai Makkia� are the most difficult books on philosophical and logical amd mystical subjects of 1400 yeras…only few …in these hundreds of yers fully knew about concepts of his books…so when peple of ordinary minds..dont understand his works..they start “fatwas factories� on differnt personalities….
#23 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:13:55 am
am not an expert of any of the above scholar…but Imam Zahabi …himself have written that when somebody asked him about the claim of Ibne Arabi that prophet(pbuh) himself ordered Ibne Arabi to write his master piece “Fasoosul hakam� …Imam Zahabi replied..i cannot belive about the person of such a calibre like Inbne rabai that he will tell a lie in the name of prophet(pbuh)…..
#22 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:13:42 am
Point is you can disagree with a person on one pont..not means that ..you can negate his all other achievements ..and good deeds….
#21 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:13:29 am
Regarding the differences ..the difference of ioponions is the crux and core of any civilized society…and in golden era of muslim culture in baghdad…Damasqus..Qairo…Spain..and Naishapur etc etc…in Abbasssaids periods….this differnce of opinions prevailed in every field…even in the great faqeehs of all times…4 imams of fiqah..ahle hadees..and other shia scholars….
#20 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:13:14 am
i am just an iota of existence to speak about such a ultra high concepts of wadhutul wajood and philosophicl speeches…God bless those great scholars and sufias..and imams…i am not even compareable to the dust of thier feet….so cannot say anything with perfection….
#19 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:12:33 am
Nor was that all…in indo pak..this concept reached in Wadhutul Wajood…in Akbar Peroid…by faizi…Abul fazal…and negation of Sh.Amed Sarhindi…and after beuitiful writings of Shah Wali ullah Dehalvi etc…
But still then..the sufias did that job …islam will proud of them till the doomsday…
But still then..the sufias did that job …islam will proud of them till the doomsday…
#18 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:12:02 am
The translation of the Greek literature in Mamoon ur Rasheed period …into arabic ..gave many philosophical mind teasing concepts and debates…clearly be seen in great scholars like Imam Ghazali..master piece Aiyai Uloom …and one and only…Ibne Arabi…plus on the philosophical touch of iran ancient Sassanaid empire amalgfumate to give some superficial properties to Hazrat Ali(ra)….and developing a sect in 15 century in Iran under Safvaid period…though before…Shia Sunni conflict was just the poltical rivaliries of Ummayyads and Hasmies…
#17 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:11:40 am
But ..along with this..througout a span of 1400 years…a continuous debate of some the tangents of some sufia from the main stream shariah and fiqah scholars..starting from the famous quote of great faqeeh Imam Shafi..to Imam Ibne Tamiyya..Imam Ibne Jauzi…Imam Zahabi..etc etc…
#16 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:11:15 am
In our sub continents…few sufis ..spread the whole message of islam fa better than hundreds of kings..og mughal..syed…ghulama …ghaznavis…abdalis…nadir shah…and other kings….the basic purpose of them was equlaity..and love with all people regardless of religion..cast and colour..thats why ..in this region…the budhism…jainism.etc cannot be seen today to that extent as islam…about15 crore in pakistan..20 crore in india..and 16 crore in Bangla Desh..and most of them are muslims ..as thier forefathers were made muslims by these sufias…We cannot pay back this debt …of these great aulias and sufias…
#15 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:10:48 am
similarly...similarly....
aulia and wali ullah never said that ..worship us...urs on us..dhammal ...band baji...non-shariah like things..women visiting graves..a it is strictly forbidden...and ask help from them...These are Jahil who do all that....
aulia and wali ullah never said that ..worship us...urs on us..dhammal ...band baji...non-shariah like things..women visiting graves..a it is strictly forbidden...and ask help from them...These are Jahil who do all that....
#14 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:10:25 am
Similarly...everything...from health...to children...from money to success is given by Allah...however sometimes he directly give...sometimes somebody helps us..like friend...who give us money in difficult times...some times its doctor which help us...sometimes...very pious people are given help by Khizar(as) etc..sometimes the rooh of aulia helped him in difficult times.....but ULTIMATELY...not a leaf is broken from the tree without Allah will...just maens are different....
#13 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:09:07 am
* Just ..previously..in some thread ...i gave the example of sick person...that if i become ill...and go to doctor...and after the medicatie he give..i becomes perfectly right...its not mean that medicine gi\ve me health...neither its menas that doctor give me health...its Allah...who give me health...but doctor and medines were means ...which come into my good health recovery....
#12 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:08:37 am
we ask only from Allah...not any Wali...though Shah wali Ullah writes..after the death of few aulia...thier rooh..are used for Takveeni-Umoors.....its upon Allah...to give a person a specific thing...either by his ownself...through some other person..through some wali....but ultimately...Allah...will...that superseeds anything..and only Allah...gives...no-body else...
* Majority..if visit mazar..neither ..do rakooh and sajood...just in a sunnah way...recite fateha in a proper way...and ask Allah from anything...its upon now allah to give us...through any mean.....
* Majority..if visit mazar..neither ..do rakooh and sajood...just in a sunnah way...recite fateha in a proper way...and ask Allah from anything...its upon now allah to give us...through any mean.....
#11 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:08:16 am
but aulia never ordered this ...these are Jahil people who all do that....
majority of muslims..
*respect them...
* we are muslims because our fore-fatheres became muslims by them...
*we love them as they spread islam ..in this Indo_pak region of hinduism
majority of muslims..
*respect them...
* we are muslims because our fore-fatheres became muslims by them...
*we love them as they spread islam ..in this Indo_pak region of hinduism
#10 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:08:00 am
*. Yes...those who do personality worship are "jahils"
*asking help from them instead of allah ....
*attribute some divive qualities to them...
*do rakooh and sajood on shrines and mazars
*and mostly now-a-days...the "Mujawar" of qabar and shrine eat haram from "Nazranai"..sadqa..khairat...this is totally haram....
*asking help from them instead of allah ....
*attribute some divive qualities to them...
*do rakooh and sajood on shrines and mazars
*and mostly now-a-days...the "Mujawar" of qabar and shrine eat haram from "Nazranai"..sadqa..khairat...this is totally haram....
#9 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:07:41 am
urs..were never ordered by walis themselves...these are the followers who initiated that.....
*doing all farz ibadat ...then doing nafal ibabdat so much so that....above hadees criteria reached.....
some walis used to pray fajr prayer with Isha prayer wadhu..means whole night not sleeping....
*doing all farz ibadat ...then doing nafal ibabdat so much so that....above hadees criteria reached.....
some walis used to pray fajr prayer with Isha prayer wadhu..means whole night not sleeping....
#8 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:07:27 am
In Bukhari Shareef, Hadrat Abu Huraira (Radi Allahu ta'ala Anhu) reports
the following Hadith-e-Quddsi:
The Most Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu Ta'ala Alayhi Wa Sallam) has said
that Allah said, “Whoever shows enmity to a friend of mine, I shall be at war
with him.�
the following Hadith-e-Quddsi:
The Most Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu Ta'ala Alayhi Wa Sallam) has said
that Allah said, “Whoever shows enmity to a friend of mine, I shall be at war
with him.�
#7 Posted by dawa-i-dil on September 13, 2007 7:06:42 am
This is
[declared in a Hadith-e-Quddsi, where Allah says to the Most Beloved ]Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala Alayhi wa Sallam), “Among the things
that bring My servant close to Me, the ones I love best, are the things
that I have made fard (compulsory). When My servant does nafil ibaadat (optional prayer), he gets very close to Me. So much so, that
I love him very much. When I love Him, I become his hearing ear,
seeing eye, holding hand, and walking foot. I give him whatever he
wishes. When he invokes Me for help, I protect him.� ]
[declared in a Hadith-e-Quddsi, where Allah says to the Most Beloved ]Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala Alayhi wa Sallam), “Among the things
that bring My servant close to Me, the ones I love best, are the things
that I have made fard (compulsory). When My servant does nafil ibaadat (optional prayer), he gets very close to Me. So much so, that
I love him very much. When I love Him, I become his hearing ear,
seeing eye, holding hand, and walking foot. I give him whatever he
wishes. When he invokes Me for help, I protect him.� ]
#6 Posted by jayp on September 13, 2007 3:01:28 am
Sufi9sm is indian and here is a connection between Bangalore and pakistan.
from deccan herald of today
The road is named after Ali Asker, the grand father of Dewan Mirza Ismail, who imported horses from iran. Agha Ali Asker was a Persian nobleman who settled in Bangalore. He traded in horses and Persian carpets and supplied horses to the royal stable. He created the Ali Asker Waqf Estate. Two of his family members namely Agha Shahi and Agha Hilaly migrated to Pakistan and became Foreign Secretaries of the nation.
Sir Mirza's grandson, Akbar Mirza Khaleeli, was Indian ambassador to Iran, Italy and Australia. He has four daughters Zeebeundeh Khaleeli, Sabah Backhache, Rehane Yavar Dhala and Esmath Khaleeli.
from deccan herald of today
The road is named after Ali Asker, the grand father of Dewan Mirza Ismail, who imported horses from iran. Agha Ali Asker was a Persian nobleman who settled in Bangalore. He traded in horses and Persian carpets and supplied horses to the royal stable. He created the Ali Asker Waqf Estate. Two of his family members namely Agha Shahi and Agha Hilaly migrated to Pakistan and became Foreign Secretaries of the nation.
Sir Mirza's grandson, Akbar Mirza Khaleeli, was Indian ambassador to Iran, Italy and Australia. He has four daughters Zeebeundeh Khaleeli, Sabah Backhache, Rehane Yavar Dhala and Esmath Khaleeli.
#5 Posted by jayp on September 13, 2007 2:53:26 am
tahmed,
In fact the hindu sacrifices are carried out with the verse in sanscrit that I wrote.
Killing is the law of nature, one cannot create anything without destroying something, that is why lord shiva is the creator and destroyer. The trick is doing the killing with detachment, go and read Gita, if that is not haram.
In fact the hindu sacrifices are carried out with the verse in sanscrit that I wrote.
Killing is the law of nature, one cannot create anything without destroying something, that is why lord shiva is the creator and destroyer. The trick is doing the killing with detachment, go and read Gita, if that is not haram.
#4 Posted by tahmed32 on September 13, 2007 2:14:09 am
jay #2 last week you were explaining in full seriousness how as an engineer he understands the need for the nepali hindus to sacrifice goats in hopes of appeasing the airline god. ram! ram!! goat! goat!!
#3 Posted by Naqshbandi on September 13, 2007 2:10:56 am
no, these are not metaphors for me but haqiqat. :-)
the third story's moral is that to reach great heights in sainthood one has to go through a lot of suffering and kills ones ego, one's nafs, one's lower animal self. The Shaykh himself spent 25 years or so living in the wild so it was not arrogance. Killing the nafs is at the heart of sufism (and every other religion's spiritual path too).
the third story's moral is that to reach great heights in sainthood one has to go through a lot of suffering and kills ones ego, one's nafs, one's lower animal self. The Shaykh himself spent 25 years or so living in the wild so it was not arrogance. Killing the nafs is at the heart of sufism (and every other religion's spiritual path too).
#2 Posted by jayp on September 13, 2007 1:51:45 am
In pakistan ramadan is is teh day to be remembered for teh slaughter of animals in the backyards and the public killing of camel with galleries set up for the people to watch.
Is there a sufi who said that before slaughtering ",,oh my dear animal, for my sustainence I have to kill you and one day the god that is same for both of us will take me to my killer..and eventually we are all same".
No it cannot be a muslim who can say that, man and animal same god, no not at all. But can be a good thought for the educated pakistanis so that teh backyard killings do not become a nursery step to jihadic killings.
Is there a sufi who said that before slaughtering ",,oh my dear animal, for my sustainence I have to kill you and one day the god that is same for both of us will take me to my killer..and eventually we are all same".
No it cannot be a muslim who can say that, man and animal same god, no not at all. But can be a good thought for the educated pakistanis so that teh backyard killings do not become a nursery step to jihadic killings.
#1 Posted by thinkingstorm on September 12, 2007 7:22:36 pm
Dear living Wali Naqshbandi, may your status be exalted amongst chowkies, may Allah grow fragrant flowers where you tread.
The story #3, perhaps comes across a bit...how shall I put it....arrogant? I know that sometimes these stories are a bit much for us uninitiated, and unwashed, but could you please please elaborat that a little bit? I mean there has to be some sympathy for the poor boy? Some comfort for the woman?
It may be my purely ignorant understanding, but these stories are not supposed to be real, right? I mean, these are just...metaphorically speaking, right?
Thank you for considering these question, I remain your humble corpse in waiting.
with much respect,
thinking storm
The story #3, perhaps comes across a bit...how shall I put it....arrogant? I know that sometimes these stories are a bit much for us uninitiated, and unwashed, but could you please please elaborat that a little bit? I mean there has to be some sympathy for the poor boy? Some comfort for the woman?
It may be my purely ignorant understanding, but these stories are not supposed to be real, right? I mean, these are just...metaphorically speaking, right?
Thank you for considering these question, I remain your humble corpse in waiting.
with much respect,
thinking storm
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