Limits of Multiculturalism

Re: # 116

zahid

"It's mostly not about the following of the Islamic teachings but a helpless act of defiance against the overbearing western society."

You may be right Zahid; they may be using their right of vote with burqa to defy, what you call, the 'overbearing western society' but why should they protest if the western society uses Islam to counteract their defying anti-west maneuvers.

Re: # 109

harimau

"The Election Commissioner of Canada is an idiot.
If he had half the brains of a camel, he would have told women in burqas who refuse to show their faces that in Islam women don't have the right to vote and so they should just go back home and not try to vote in elections. And ordered a punishment of 40 lashes for attempting to contravene the Koran."

Well said! The E.C. should also have checked whether she came out to vote duly accompanied by a genuine 'Mehram' (a close relative with whom she cannot be married or someone with whom she has duly been married as ordained in Islam).

DM: Thanks for the welcome to the "welayaan di bethak". I think your post does not reflect anywhere close the muslim roots to sikhism. After all, the founder of sikhism was in fact a hindu employee of a muslim ruler, was strongly influenced by a muslim sufi, and founded sikhism as on muslim and hindu traditions. So, it would be surprising if Islam was of mere passing relevance to sikhism as your post would seem to indicate.

Given that monotheism is a major point of emphasis in Islam (in centuries old muslim tradition, one need merely acknowledge this concept and of mohammed as being his messenger in order to be considered as muslim), your pointing to some hindu sects practicing monotheism would seem a bit of a stretch, dont you think? Same for egalitarianism, something that observers of muslim culture ranging from Malcolm X to Arnold Toynbee have specifically noted. (Malcolm x dropped his anti-white rhetoric after, as he mentions, he saw muslims of all colors come together as equals during hajj; Toynbee, in the era of racism, noted his great surprise at seeing a white egyptian student in the UK acting in a deferential manner to a black egyptian student and the latter acted as his social superior).

The above begs the question of this denial by sikhs of their muslim heritage - and the answer is obvious: given the barbaric treatment of the peaceful sikhs by mughals (including i believe the torture and killing of one their gurus) finally turned the sikhs into a fighters and also their association of Islam with the barbarism of the mughals. 1947 killings probably added to this. At least that is my theory.

Faith-based schools.

A provincial election candidate's suggestion that Ontario do what B.C. has been doing well for 30 years -- finance independent religious schools -- has created a controversy not seen here
Janet Steffenhagen, Vancouver Sun
Published: Saturday, September 22, 2007

An issue that threatened to explode last year was a deal B.C. signed to settle a human-rights complaint, which included a promise to make all K-12 curriculum gay friendly. Many religious groups were upset, however, those with independent schools were quietly assured by government that any changes would not affect them.

The main objections to the principle of independent school funding come from the B.C. Teachers' Federation (BCTF) and the Canadian Union of Public Employees (CUPE), which represents some 25,000 workers in public schools.

"We have a pretty heartfelt, idealistic commitment to public education," BCTF president Irene Lanzinger said in an interview. "If you want something other than that, you should pay for it yourself."

The BCTF usually directs its criticism at elite schools with hefty tuition fees and entrance exams, but those are few in number. The vast majority of independent schools in B.C. are faith-based, although there are also some Montessori, Waldorf, French, first nations and special education schools.

Enrolments in independent schools have been growing by an average of two per cent each year for five years, despite a steady decline in the number of B.C. school-aged children overall. More than 10 per cent of all students-- some 66,000 children -- are enrolled in independent schools, and in a few urban districts that percentage is almost doubled. Independent schools are busy with construction while public districts have closed 150 schools in five years.

The BCTF and CUPE say government support for independent schools is part of a dangerous trend towards privatization.

"We [have seen] the erosion of public school funding and an influx of funds and students into private schools," CUPE president Barry O'Neill said in an e-mail to The Vancouver Sun.

"This is particularly worrisome at a time, like we are in now, where we face declining student numbers.

"Ontario has an opportunity to maintain an integrated and diverse pubic education system. Our advice is to hold the line on more funding for independent schools and not go the way of B.C."

Independent schools in B.C. are eligible for 50 per cent of annual operating grants to public schools, but they receive no capital cost allowance. Government argues that ending such funding would prompt independent schools to raise tuition, which would force many of those students back into the public system and up education costs by half a billion dollars.

Last year, B.C. gave $211 million to independent schools, including first-time grants to help them educate special needs students. Since their allotment is calculated as a percentage of per-pupil grants to public schools, it rises as public school enrolments fall. It also goes up every time public school unions negotiate a salary increase.

Historian Jean Barman, who has written extensively about B.C.'s independent schools, said apart from union protests, there have been few complaints about independent school funding in B.C. and she is surprised by the Ontario outcry, especially given that one group of religious schools -- Catholic -- already receives public money.
REST Of the story is HERE:

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=0fc3f29a-d131-47c 5- be51-4648344fcb88&p=2
_____________________________________________________ _____
(Ontario ..hence Canada..is also NOT complying with a UN order to not violate UN charter of human rights by not extending funding to ALL religions)...echo
===========================================================
Every little baby step is leading to the complete annihilation & extinction of the secularoons from the face of earth.

Never ever be fooled: Secularism means KUFR..not Shirk..but KUFR.

Important fine point: Secularoons are NEVER athiests & vice versa. Secularoons are ANTI-thieists.

Atheists are benign babies compared to ANTI-theists (secularoons) who are malignant ogres.

http://stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=56332&archive=true
S horts vs. sweat pants:
Muslims in US military say ‘everybody belongs’...

How US army is CHANGING its uniform & dietary regulations to please MUSLIMS!

You win when you assert, you demand,and you insist. You lose & become non-existent once you try to become invisible by merging. Extinct species had a reason to become extinct..they were embarrassed about themselves.

Muslims are in US not always to change themselves ..they are here to change the US as well. IT BELONGS to them. Secularoon Kanjaroon take note! You'll have NOWHERE to run..so get your act together & de-murtid yourself before you get I-ranned.



"too apnee khuDee agar na khota
Zuunnar-i Bergson naa hoata".........ALLAMA IQBAL

tr:
Had you not lost your own Self-Respect
You wouldn't have become a slave of the Western-thought.
(Bergson as a metaphor for western thought)

tahmed writes "#91 masadi: I didnt read your post. you are such a bloody bore"

Bloody bore or not, I manage to bust your BS time and again so all you are left with are these nonsense one liners, my "hatred" of you is not based on personal reasons, it is because you are a hypocrite that is an enemy of the people who protects and tries to legitimize the barbarism of those that are busy enslaving humanity. That you do it in a dimwit, third rate manner, every second fool on the US media does a better job than you, is immaterial. I just want to expose your kind of third rate legitimizers of slavery to our people and creative or not, I manage to do it quite effectively...

dost-mittar #145: " I cannot think of a chamar or a hari/muzaira becoming even a naib-nazim of Gujranwala...."

...egalitarianism will always be a part of any religion or philosopy or social system, which arose in favor of the lower class.......islam was one such religion.......hence, at its core, it will always be egalitarian......any muslim can go lead the prayers in the kaaba, regardless of social status.....and while the rich and powerful may be able to create a social, "upper-caste," however, when they line up in a mosque, to say their prayers, they cannot stop the lowest of the low to stand next to them, or even lead them in prayer........

ek he saff mein kharay ho gayee mahmood o ayaz
na koee bandaa rahaa, no koee bandaa-nawaz

not sure how one would define a chamar in pakistan......however, in punjab, the upper class used to be the rajas etc......now the whole politics of the province (not counting the pirs etc.) is in control of jats and gujjars.....the social lower class of the provinces.....nawaz sharif is the son of a kashmiri brick kiln worker.......chaudry shujaat's father was a constable....the general who may become the next coas (kiani) is the son of a sepoy.......

in baluchistan and sind, it is quite castiest, though based on land ownership.........in pakistan, there is, no doubt, a social caste hierarchy.......but it is based on wealth an power.......nawaz sharif's father was lower caste.....ns is upper caste......my ancestors were quite high on the caste ladder, however we are moving down and the jats etc. have taken over........

All right, dm sahib, we may finally agree.

That is fair. All these can be considered 'gifts' of some sort from Islam. Like we got potatoes - a great food - from somewhere, and we can rightly think of potatoes as their gift to us, without in any sense, potatoes actually belonging to whosoever brought them to us. They are not a food of this or that group.

Otherwise, there is nothing Islamic about Urdu language (as you can see, this is NOT a trivial issue), or pigeon fighting, building of forts, and such.

--------------------

echodada, one tries, at considerable cost to one's reputation here. Luckily repuation here is of no consequence to anybody :)

kaal#146:

Would there be an Urdu language if Muslims had not come to India, would there be a Taj or a Kabir? To me, all these happened because of the advent of Islam and Muslims to India, and that is the reason I consider them to be contribution of Islam in India, albeit of a non-theological variety.

Kaal:
The inabilty of the most here not being able to understand you is precisely what ails our society.

It is the goraa education system, even in the govt. schools or desi schools, which churns such a mindset. The whole purpose of that system is to produce no-brain users, wage-earners & order-takers. Since this leads to "positions" it also inculcates in the minds of these "parRhhay-likhhays" that they are really capable of thinking & understanding others' thinking.

De-education is the first step if the crows who dream of getting bleached is to be put to sleep.

AS I have said many times the calendar must be reset to pre-1757 and the clocks should never be allowed to strike 12noon anymore.

It was Guru Gobind Singh, the great creator of the khalsa, who deliberately learnt from/borrowed good and admirable elements from Islam. For that and more he will always stand out as one of the greatest sons India has ever produced.

There was not a trace of Islam on Guru Nanak or his teachings, unless some sikh corrects us.

bulleya#141:

If you read my article again, I said that it was perhaps not the case of even a single individual. But the reaction of the political parties is indicative. As I said, there is a shift in the public opinion on giving further concessions, as is evident from the change in attitudes towards the sharia tribunals and extension of public funding to faith-based schools. (and this when people are careful not to call their schools Madrassas). Incidentally, this opposition to the faith-based schools is despite the fact that the movement in support of such funding is led by the Jews who control much of the media in Canad.

tahmed32#136:

Welcome to "vellyaaN di baithak"!

My post was specific to the context of nb's question.

With respect to the influence of Islam, I have some disagreements. I think that Sikh religion was influenced by Islam but not in the ways that you mention. The Sikh religion adopted the idea of a single holy scripture, langar, combining religion with politics (meeri and peeri) and some other external signs, but in terms of religious philosophy, it is overwhelmingly Hindu. Sikhs are not the only ones who accepted the idea of One God, no idol worship and no caste (nominally only!). So, did several sects of Hindu religion and most importantly, Arya Samaj, which also is monotheistic and forbids idol worship and also has a holy book, they in fact went one step further and started indulging in active proselytizing with the so-called "shudhi" movement.

And while I do agree that Islam is more egalitarian than the Hindu religion, it did not do anything in this regard in India. None of the Muslim rulers tried to stop the oppression of shudras by the upper castes or the stopping of the burning of the widows. Indeed, it failed to rid its own converts of their casteist attitudes. So much so, that I think that Pakistan is perhaps now a more casteist society than India; there is more caste pride among Pakistanis and while a chamar is now the chief minister of the biggest states of India (and another is Chief Justice of Supreme Court), I cannot think of a chamar or a hari/muzaira becoming even a naib-nazim of Gujranwala.

dm sahib

One hears of serial killers, rapists, thiefs, and thugs in every country and every religion. There was one particuarly gruesome kind of case reported in Pakistani newspapers sometime back.

Hoepfully, they aren't associating Islam with all that, given that the fellow probably was raised in a Muslim family, was circumcised, and read kalim at sometime. :(

If merely that is enough to bring Islam in, or any other religion in, then ram naam satya hai for all of liberalism.

Kaal:

"Kabir was a follower of Islam. This must be some Islam that only Hindus know about."

He was raised in a Muslim family. This means that he must have been read the Kalima and was circumcised; that's enough to qualify him as a Muslim in India.

There are very few kabir-panthis left in India (most of the weavers of Banaras now call themselves ansaris) but those who do are considered nominally Muslims, as was Humayun Kabir.

"it is just a legal issue of one individual, which politicians are using..."

Ha Ha Ha....really good one, romair sahib. :)

That poor one person, so legally caught up.