Limits of Multiculturalism

Re: # 186

arjun3

"From Him we come & to Him shall we all return."

Does it not nullify the concept of accountability or retribution to strike out the very bottom from under the dogmatism of Islam?

Re: # 189

tahmed

"In egalitarianism, in mawakhaat, he is an ajmi"

Though I know little of Persian language I will translate the above stanza as under:

"This concept of egalitarianism and brotherhood is an Ajmi one (alien to Arab culture)"

Abujehl (For whom the prophet had prayed to God to make him his follower along with Umar Farooq) is accusing prophet of propagating foreign concepts (Persian communism of Mazdak) among Arabs under the influence of Salman Farsi. Was it not repeated in America in modern times in the shape of Mccarthyism.

Regards

Tolkinin#197:

In almost all cases of Hindu-Muslim marriages in India, children are raised as Muslims, despite all the whining about the difficulties faced by them in India.

nb#195:

"I think the Hindu concept I know is one god, but I also know many who see it as many gods."

Hindus seem to be wonderfully promiscuous about this. Most Hindus I know would do the Hanuman Chalisa, do the Ganesh Pooja and pujas of other gods, while maintaining that they believe in only one Parmatma, without a trace of any confusion in their minds.

As of interreligious couples, I am with you, even more so. I believe that Islam treats marriages as a means of expanding the faith and not merely as a matter of the heart.Islam permits Muslims men marrying non-muslim women but not the other way round, because, when the parents die, the children and the succeeding generations would grow up as Muslims in the former case. In this, as in many other aspects, Islam does not believe Kant's dictum of "doing unto others what you want them to do unto you". And since no one has the power to change what is in the Quran, Non-Muslims have every right to oppose Muslim men marrying non-muslim women.

tahmed32:

"t is probably true not just for sikhism, but for all religions that they did not start off as a separate religion."

You may be right here. But as far as I know, Prophet Mohammad did declare himself to be a Muslim (although maintaining that he was not starting a new religion). Neither Jesus nor Nanak made any such claim.

"n your ancestor receiving the title of "bhai" from the second guru - do you actually have a shajra-e-nasab going back that far (i.e. into the 1500s')."

I have only been able to go back to about 250 years, that too thanks to the meticulously updated records kept by the pandas of Haridwar. As for the Bhai part, it has to be true as it was heridetary and used just like the caste by the family. BTW, the family folklore about the "karamaat" of some of my ancestors compare favourably with those of naqshbandi's sheikhs.

bulleya#185:

"......you have far too much free time on your hands.....you need to start doing something productive....."

Guilty as charged, except for some voluntary work here and there. But I have come to like this vellapan. However, I am always willing to lend a hand when approached for some worthy cause.

masadi#184:

"the Muslim is required to give Zakat to the state for redistribution, the non-Muslims since they don't pay Zakat give Jizya for state service- so there is no difference here as well."

It is my understanding (and correct me if I am wrong) that zakat is based on the ability to pay, while jazia is to be paid by all non-muslims regardless of their income levels.

"When commenting about Islam, make sure you have read and understood the Quran, merely quoting "pundit hates" and Fox News Channel wont do..."

I have never watched Fox. Most of my knowledge is based on an Urdu translation of the Quran and discussions on chowk, where you, Urstruly, tahmed, bulleya, all have different interpretations of your religion.

echoboom#182:

" Disowning one's past will NEVER make one modern."
while claiming to be hindus(wink wink)"

Are you willing to accept the difference between disowning and being proud of something? If not, I do not see any difference between a westoxicated person not seeing anything wrong in the west and a Hindu or a Muslim not seeing anything wrong in their religious practices. Brainwashing is brainwashing, no matter whether it is religious or cultural.

I would also make a difference between criticism and loyalty. To give an extreme example, hamidm finds almost nothing good in his religion and yet thinks that anyone leaving it should be regarded as traitor.

#196 nb
"Unfortunately, all four cases had a Muslim husband and a Hindu or in one cas-Louise Fernandes-a Christian...

Is it fortunate for muslim to get Hindu husband.?Dominant culture and religion will take care of religion.It wiil be Islam inPakistan and nonmuslim in India .Children hate to stand out as sore thumb outcast against the current if they have the excuse of one parent giving them that option

#195
Still its hard for intercommunity marriage in Inda if the boy is Muslim and not as rich and famous as pataudi or Shahrukh.
There is this case of Muslim boy married to 23 yrs d priyanka who ultimately got murdered or driven to suicide by her father who was 200 crore worth business man



Biman says sorry to kin Mandarins on damage control
OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT

CPM state secretary Biman Bose on Monday met the family members of Rizwanur Rahman and apologised for his comment that police and the Todis were not aware that Priyanka and Rizwanur had got their marriage registered.

“Bimanbabu told us he was sorry for his comments, based on what he was briefed earlier,” said Rizwanur’s elder brother Rukbanur.

The meeting at Alimuddin Street was arranged by minority leaders of the CPM as a desperate damage-control measure. The state minority affairs minister Abdus Sattar and former CPM legislator Rabin Deb were also present.

Bose offered sympathy but but gave no assurance of action against the police officers who had allegedly pressured Rizwanur to send Priyanka back to the Todi home days before the youth was found dead.

With the police force on the back foot, Trinamul Congress chief Mamata Banerjee met Governor Gopalkrishna Gandhi on Monday to press for a CBI inquiry.

According to CPM insiders, some senior leaders were unhappy over comments made by Bose and police commissioner Prasun Mukherjee. MP Mohammed Salim, who is also convener of the party’s central sub-committee on minority affairs, is said to have spoken to politburo members in Delhi on the matter.

“It will send out a wrong signal if we fail to condemn the police’s role in interfering in an inter-community marriage,” said a CPM leader, on condition of anonymity.

Land and land reforms minister Abdur Rezzak Mollah was less guarded during a visit to the Rahman home in Tiljala. “The police are always vulnerable to pressures from the rich. If the Rahmans want to take legal action against the police, I will try my best to help them as a citizen.’’

The party, meanwhile, pledged to “take care of the needs of the Rahman family”. Minority affairs minister Abdus Sattar said: “Since Rizwanur was the principal breadwinner, we must look after the bereaved family.”

With the CPM politburo meeting slated for September 28 in town, some party leaders chalked out plans to take politburo member Brinda Karat to the Rahman home.

The only silver lining for the CPM leadership seemed to be local Trinamul MLA Javed Ahmed Khan’s name being dragged into the controversy.

The Rahmans had alleged that Khan had urged the family to send Priyanka back to her parents.

Khan played down the matter on Monday, saying he had been approached as the local MLA to intervene in a matter involving a Muslim family. “I had merely asked the girl whether she knew that her father was unwell and whether she wanted to visit him.”

Re: # 180
Dostmittar, you are not the only one talking of the Hindu one god, etc. I think the Hindu concept I know is one god, but I also know many who see it as many gods. I am willing to see that my concept of god may have been affected by my ethnicity and several generations of Catholic schooling, but my grandmother also thought there was one god and she had never had the same schooling. And Dvaita and Advaita isn't that hard-it can be as complicated as you like, but the basics are simple.
Anwyawy, talking of multiculturalism the way you describe it, I am reminded of an article many years ago in the TOI which described four 'exemplary' interreligious couples. Unfortunately, all four cases had a Muslim husband and a Hindu or in one cas-Louise Fernandes-a Christian-wife, and all had had a nikaah, all had Muslim children allegedly because it was 'easier'. I have to question this kind of secularism and multiculturalism.

HAHA...prophetboy can't spin the pakislamofascism..

hey prophetboy...I heard a bunch of your brothers were busted in maryland..anybody you know? any relatives?

arjun: quit posting the whole damned internet on chowk. if you are incapable of writing a coherent sentence yourself, just provide the damned link to whatever irrelevant bs you want to use to support your half-assed views!!

dost mittar #173 It is probably true not just for sikhism, but for all religions that they did not start off as a separate religion. In the Quran, the distinction between "muslim and non-muslim" is virtually insignificant, with individual responsibility before God based on their deeds (not beliefs) on the Judgement Day being true for all individuals (not just muslims). So, it is obvious that this was true for early Islam as well. Only over time, as priests carve out their "turf" and as individuals seek the safety of the herd, does the original universal message become more narrowly defined to become a religion.

While I will grant you that I am a virtual ignoramus relative to you on matters related to sikhism - sometimes ignoramus's can provide a new perspective too. Thus, you may genuinely feel that sikhism did not carryover some key concepts (monotheism, egalitarianism) from Islam, like I said earlier the bitterness created by mughal oppression may well have caused sikhs to abandon their islamic heritage centuries before you were born.

On your ancestor receiving the title of "bhai" from the second guru - do you actually have a shajra-e-nasab going back that far (i.e. into the 1500s'). The best that I can accomplish is the early 1900's, when it seems like there was this Chaudhry Baga (wolf) who was a great-great-great-grandfather, after which the trail becomes cold. :-)

DM: still in denial? still being disingenuous?

Bishop warns that Muslims who convert risk being killed


Jamie Doward, home affairs editor
Sunday September 16, 2007
The Observer

One of the Church of England's most senior bishops is warning that people will die unless Muslim leaders in Britain speak out in defence of the right to change faith.

Michael Nazir-Ali, the Bishop of Rochester, whose father converted from Islam to Christianity in Pakistan, says he is looking to Muslim leaders in Britain to 'uphold basic civil liberties, including the right for people to believe what they wish to believe and to even change their beliefs if they wish to do so'.

Article continues
Some Islamic texts brand Muslims who convert to other faiths as 'apostates' and call for them to be punished. Seven of the world's 57 Islamic states - including Iran - impose the death penalty for conversion.

Now Ali, who some see as a potential Archbishop of Canterbury, has told Channel 4's Dispatches programme of his fears about the safety of the estimated 3,000 Muslims who have converted to other faiths in Britain.

'It is very common in the world today, including in this country, for people who have changed their faith, particularly from being Muslim to being Christian, to be ostracised, to lose their job, for their marriages to be dissolved, for children to be taken away,' Ali said. 'And this is why some leadership is necessary from Muslim leaders themselves to say that this is not what Islam teaches.'

The bishop warns that Muslims who switch faiths in Britain could be killed if the current climate continues. 'We have seen honour killings have happened, and there is no reason why this kind of thing cannot happen.'

In 2004, Prince Charles asked British Muslim leaders to renounce laws of apostasy and the death sentence for converts in Islamic countries, but no public statement was ever made.

Dispatches obtained Islamic texts sold in Britain that say the punishment for apostasy is death - according to all four schools of Islamic jurisprudence. One text called for Muslims to cut off the head of those who reject Islam.

The radical Islamist group Hizb ut-Tahrir, which some in Britain want to see banned, states in its constitution that in countries that practise Sharia law, apostates are to be executed. Its message is disseminated on university campuses across Britain and has found a following among a minority of young Muslims.

A poll of more than 1,000 British Muslims, conducted by the Policy Exchange think-tank this year, found that 36 per cent of Muslims aged between 16 and 24 believe those who convert to another faith should be punished by death.

Sheikh Mogra, a senior member of the Muslim Council for Britain, told Dispatches: 'We live in a country where we respect people's choices. It is not right for any British Muslim to harm in any way whatsoever; to bully them, to intimidate them, to threaten them, is all against Muslim law.'

One convert interviewed for the programme told how his local Muslim community in Bradford closed ranks against him after he switched to Christianity. 'They told me categorically had I been in an Islamic country - Pakistan, Middle East - that they would actually be the first to chop off my head,' he said.

further to #189: that last verse from Iqbal is particularly interesting to me because this is the exact (and refreshing) feeling I would have when saying friday and/or eid prayers in Rawalpindi or Islamabad - for a few, brief, shining moments, the rich and their servants and other poor people actually do stand shoulder in shoulder as equals before God in prayer. Although even here, the maulvi sometimes seek to become unequal when delivering the mullah political line to the audience in the khutba without being burdened by having his views questioned by the "Mahmud o Ayaz"...