Limits of Multiculturalism

dm sahib, don't know what the French system is, but is it cognizant of and immune to the power of numbers?

I think a country that understands multiculturalism better than most is Malaysia.

masadi#83:

"The kind you talk about is voluntary, the kind I am talking about is more implicit, insidious and it changes the nature of man, and when that nature changes to accomadate injustice the world over to benefit the few, when it works to break apart human community and relationships it is wrong"

While one can distinguish between voluntary and forced changes, it is difficult to tell which one is more implicit or insidious. To me, when a Muslim in the British India left his Madrassa to go to the Aligarh University and turned into a Brown Englishman, it was an equally insidious change.

khurram#86:

I think that Alephnull has done a fairly good job of drawing lines.

Alephnull:

Thanks for helping out.:)

harimau has raised a legitimate point in his post #109 though overstretched it. That while voting these Mulslim women were acting against the will of God is a simplification, since Islamic history even gives an example of a woman leading a military expedition against a Caliph, not to forget the commandements allowing women to do their own business and keep their incomes separate from their husbands and even demanding allowance from their husbands for feeding their children.

Nevertheless, these women besides men all over the world are doing a great mistake of mixing 7th century Arabic culture with the timeless and universal Islamic teachings which are and must be cultureless but adaptable to any culture while following certain and only a few lines -- not the whole sort of Arabic culture. It's mostly not about the following of the Islamic teachings but an helpless act of defiance against the overbearing western society.

The fact that the younger generations of Islamic immigrants in the western countries are usually more Islamic -- or at least appearing to be so -- than their parents or even the whole ancestors till the first convert misguides too often the observor who is misled by the Islamic appearance of these people into taking them as some 'holy' people merely acting according to the will of God and not waging a cultural war in search of their own identity in the sea of ideas in their new countries.

bulleya#102:

As I said, the issue of voting rights for the veiled woman was really insignificant, especially since no one had asked for it. It does, however, show the sensitivity of the issue for the general public. Canadians seem to have reached the limit of their tolerance and are now saying, "enough is enough". Otherwise, why would the leaders of all political parties in Quebec, Liberal, Conservative and Bloc Quebecois, rush to denounce the poor Election Commission.

Let me give you another pointer. A few years ago when the UN called Ontario's funding of Catholic schools only as discriminatory, there was a large sentiment for extending the funding to schools of other faiths. Now that John Tory has made it an election pledge, nearly 80 percent of Ontarians are against it, including a majority of visible minorities. Three years ago, the Ontario government almost agreed to set up sharia based tribunals, now no politician would even talk about it.

nb#106:

I did not say that multiculturalism in India should have no limits; they obviously cannot transgress the constitution and I have never sympathized with either Nehru for creating a legal ghetto for Muslims nor Rajiv Gandhi's buckling under Mullahs' pressure in the Shah Bano case.

But we have to realise that Muslim culture, including Burqas (and all that goes with it!) are very much a part of the indigenous culture.

harimou#109:

LOL!

"The Election Commissioner of Canada is an idiot."

Fortunately, he doesn't work under the sharia laws, otherwise he would have followed your advice.

hahahah Malaysia as a beacon of multiculturalism. Kaal bhaijaan, Malaysia is a predominantly muslim country. Whereever there are muslims as a large minority there are problems..pick a place any place.

Kaal

Yes, and a country that understands religious freedom is Saudi Arabia.... Man, you are nuts... :)

kaal#113:

"don't know what the French system is, but is it cognizant of and immune to the power of numbers?"

I am not sure what the power of numbers is? Are you saying that when a group attains a critical mass, it is entitled to certain group rights?

"I think a country that understands multiculturalism better than most is Malaysia."

Is it another indication of your newfound admiration for Islamic systems?

dost_mittar, that is my point. Where does indigenous begin and end? I believe that throughout the New World, the original inhabitants are the only ones that are indigenous. How much did white Canadians acculturate to the First People? How do they have the right to ask immigrants to assimilate when they themselves did not even come in peace?
Otoh, if Muslims identify with the outsider rather than the Indian, I think it is reasonable of the BJP to say you have been here 100s of years, you need to start doing some things the way we do. I think whether you are first, second or 100th generation, some things do not change.

KaalChakra, try to see beyond neembu and myself, please.

The earliest settlers of North America found a no-man's land and at least the religious ones like the puritans percieving themselves as the new Israel considered that 'Garden' as the promised land and found it their obligation to fight the indigenous ungodly people.

But now the new immigrants can't think in their right state of mind that they'd tell the indiginous -- in this case the western societies -- what human development means.

dm sahib, numbers are one of the basic currencies of cultural power in any individualistic polity. The other is relative level of commitment to the separate group itself.

A multicultistic polity that doesn't understand the role of group power in shaping group behavior is simply blind as a bat.

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mohar,

Saudi Arabia does practise multicultism better than any other country.

Have you EVER, EVER heard of religious riots there?

EVER heard a Saudi Arabian Hindu complain? A Saudi Christian complain? A Saudi Jew complain? About even the smallest, tiniest issue?

I haven't. Now compare that with India - where we claim to have coped "amazingly well." It houses the world's champion whiners. Always has, and will (like sadna, you may call me a whiner too. LOL).

Malaysia may not be as lucky as Saudi Arabia. But given whatever it is stuck with, it is doing a great job of managing multicultism.

Only when they have as many religious riots as they have, as many people killed, and places of worship destroyed, will we be able to say we can barely match them.

Ref kaalchakra #113

[I think a country that understands multiculturalism better than most is Malaysia.]

Since you are absolutely clueless about Malaysia, here is a sample clue.

Thursday May 31, 3:22 PM
Malaysian woman criticises court in religious conversion row

AFP

The woman at the centre of a religious controversy in Malaysia has accused the country's highest court of denying her fundamental rights in rejecting her bid to be legally recognised as Christian, her lawyer confirmed Thursday.

Lina Joy's comments came a day after Malaysia's Federal Court rejected her attempt to win recognition of her conversion from Islam.

Joy, 43, had sought the removal of the word "Islam" from her national identity card.

But the Federal Court, the highest secular legal body, threw out her case and said only an Islamic sharia tribunal could legally certify her conversion.

"I am disappointed that the Federal Court is not able to vindicate a simple but important fundamental right that exists in all persons," she said, according to her lawyer, Benjamin Dawson.

Joy was referring to the right to believe in the religion of one's choice, and the right to marry a person of one's choosing.

She cannot legally marry her Christian partner because Malaysian law requires non-Muslims to convert to Islam to wed a Muslim.

"The Federal Court has not only denied me that right but to all Malaysians who value fundamental freedoms," Joy said.

"I am hoping that my case would have made a difference to the development of constitutional issues in the plight of many others."

Dawson told AFP that he and Joy were considering their next move but the options were very limited.

He declined to reveal Joy's whereabouts, saying she just wanted to be left alone.

While a coalition of Muslim groups welcomed the verdict, rights activists said the court had failed to address concerns over religious freedom in the country.

A member of parliament for the Chinese-based Democratic Action Party (DAP), Teresa Kok, called for a constitutional amendment that would make explicit the civil courts' superiority over sharia courts in all matters.

Islam is Malaysia's official religion. More than 60 percent of the nation's 27 million people are Muslim Malays.

But while the constitution defines the ethnic majority Malays as Muslims it also guarantees freedom of religion. The country's minority Chinese and Indians are mostly Buddhists, Hindus or Christians.

Joy's appeal to the Federal Court centred on whether she must go to a sharia court to have her renunciation recognised before authorities delete the word "Islam" from her identity card.

In his verdict, the chief justice said the National Registration Department (NRD), in charge of issuing identity cards, had the right to demand that the sharia court certify Joy's conversion.

But the only non-Muslim judge on the three-member judicial panel disagreed.

Judge Richard Malanjum said the NRD's demand was "discriminatory and unconstitutional," and it was unreasonable to expect a person to "self-incriminate" herself before a sharia court.

Renouncing the faith is one of the gravest sins in Islam.

The court's verdict comes amid mounting racial and religious tensions in multiracial Malaysia, where minority religious groups fear their rights are being undermined, even though the country is traditionally seen as moderate.

source: http://sg.news. yahoo.com/ 070531/1/ 48xs7.html

Harimau

Anna, there is nothing unusual or exceptional in that case. Anything else, would be, actually and truly, a surprise.

We criticise Malaysia because we Indians, Hindus specifically, ourselves have no clue what multiculturism is.

Sometimes it is better to get out of our frog in the well mindset. Let's conduct a poll on Chowk asking people which country is doing a better job of managing multiculturism - Malaysia or India. I don't think Malaysia would fare as badly as Indians might imagine.