Limits of Multiculturalism

#59 Posted by dost_mittar on September 21, 2007 8:31:24 am


If you read carefully, I am saying the same thing.


No, you're not..you're using the few and far between sikh examples to gloss over the fact that non-assimilation is mostly a muslim problem..

Urstruly#50:

"Western governments can be compared to that father who is loving to his children, provides them affluent living, arrange for them high education in the best schools possible. But outside of his house he is corrupt and dangerous man."

I do agree with you to some extent. But we are talking here about these societies. 'We' have become 'them' now and as long as the 'father' loves us equally, we do have to live by the rules of the house, don't we? Of course, being part of the family, we can always ask our father to be as just and kind outside the house as he is inside.

khurram#62:

"DM, what is your opinion? What should be expected of newcomers?"

Quite simply, I would expect us to follow the norms of the house in which we live. The problem, I am trying to point out, is that the norms of the house need to be clearly defined.

arjun2#65:

Muslims who came to Canada or the US during the sixties or earlier adjusted quite well. It is when political leaders in these countries started catering to the so-called community leaders that the problem started. And they are still doing it. The opposition party in the provincial election now taking place in Ontario has pledged to provide taxpayers' funds for faith-based schools, which would of course include Madrassas. Now, who is going to ensure that what they learn during the Madrassas is in conformity with the values of tolerance, gender equality, etc. that are the fundamental values of this society. A few months ago, many federal and provincial politicians including MPs and Premiers took part in a Sikh parade in British Columbia where the pictures of mastermind of Air India bombings, Parminder Talwar, were carried.

Re: # 63

dost,

..... regardless of the fact that it killed mickey, multiculturalism is okay as long as it is restricted to chickan tikka and bhangra - as a matter of fact, as much as you might hate it, fusion music is a great example of 'good' multiculturalism ...... in a small way, i have made my contribution to racial harmony by introducing some white friends to spicey channa mix to replace insipid beer nuts and deadly pretzels that almost killed a great president .....

... the problem arises when people like urstruly try to bring in more serious stuff like the washing of feet in public restrooms and women who refuse to show their face - from there it is a small step to public beheadings and stoning of adulterers .........

..... i agree with arjun that this is largely a muslim problem ...... the horrible hindoos, by and large, are quite willing to change and adapt to their new environment, even though some of their attempts at assimilation are rather comical ...... the sad part is that a lot of muslims seem to be passing on their primitive tribal customs on to their children - with most hindoos and other infidels it is a one generation problem .......

#68 Posted by dost_mittar on September 21, 2007 9:18:30 am

right..and radical islamic indoctrination had nothing to do with the radicalization of the generation born here...

the generation of islamofascists didn't just stumble upon the radical ideology...this isn't pokemon pal..it's not a passing fad..25% of young muslims think suicide bombing is ok...and this is because guiliani attended a pakistan day parade or something?

there have been a bunch of american/canadian born muslims who have been busted in terrorism plots...what about them? bear in mind..these are muslims born and raised here who are willing to go to war with the countries of their birth and kill their fellow citizens...

apologists like you are the problem..you make the islamofacsists into equal victims and justify their radicalization...

hamidm: I have good news for you. No more footwashing in bathroom sinks with automatic wuzu machines to be sold for good profit by non-muslims to pious pagans...I mean muslims.
This is the link:

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2006-05/19/article01.shtml

arjun: like putting lipstick on a pig, no? yeah man!! arjun gora man speakee english like amreekan!!

Wherever there is multiculturalism amd muslims, it will always cause friction. In melting pots when you have to dilute your traditions, you invariably be better assimilated into the greater fabric of the society. Lose the burkha and wear a pant suit if you want to succeed..or go back to herding camels.

arjun2#70:

I am quite aware of the problems of political islam. The greatest multicultural society in the world, India, has been able to assimilate all comers but did not succeed to do so wrt Muslims, resulting in the two-nation theory. I have written about these aspects at chowk on various occasions, but the topic here is broader than Islam and Muslims and I hope that you can recognise this.

Re: # 53 kaal, confused soul

Secular education seeks to give you an open and rational outlook to the world... that's all... that usually leads a person to practice his life [and even faith] in a rational humanistic way - not in a dogmatic religious fashion...

It will not create a "better islam" - there is no such thing - that's not the goal anyway...

It works in US, europe and other advanced countries... it has worked for hindus in india - it will work muslims too...

hamdim:"i still remember the first time i went to my ancestral village i had to squat in the fields to relieve myself ...... the wheat, or what passes for wheat in the potohar, had just been harvested and the darn stalks were sticking six inches above the ground so that i had to stick my ass up in the air "
------------

hahaha i think we can all emphathise with you..even the ones who did it that way daily.:)

dm sahib, it is not a matter of individuals deliberately wearing masks. Most people are actually very sincere, and try to do the best they can for themselves and for others. But group behavior and group strategy is different from individual behavior and individual strategy. Nor does it depend upon the actual intentions of its constitutent individuals.

Let me put the crux of the matter, in somewhat general terms.

There is a fundamental, absolute, currently irresolveable problem with (Western) multicultism.

Mutlicultism is an argument about different cults (that's my short for cultures). Cults are GROUP-LEVEL phenomenon.

That means, multicultism speaks about/promotes a specific group-level phenomenon.

BUT it does so ONLY in societies that are based, almost entirely, structurally, morally, intellectually, on the notion on individualism, indivdidual rights, respect for the individual etc. As if the frikking individual were some kind of a little god.

That is like trying to create ice inside a fire furnace, or fire inside a refrigerator.

Societies that are based on the notion of the groups, really know what multicultism is. So they don't promote it (except India, but no one knows what Indians know or don't know. Hope they themselves try to find that out while they still can.)

DM
[...The problem, ... is that the norms of the house need to be clearly defined....]

Bullsh!t.... "Norms of the house" is clear to everybody else, most other groups of people are thriving in it... Whys shouldn't it be clear to muslims?... you, as usual, are being an apologist for these backward minded losers...

The problem is with the horse, which refuses to drink the water... there is NO probem with water itself which is clear and healthy...

mohar11, I agree. The norms are clear. But I also don't believe the problem is with the 'horse' :)

The whole concept is flawed. It assumes a world that does not exist - a world in which we can speak of individuals and groups almost interchangeably, or a world wherein all groups are more or less similar among themselves, and none far too important.

Mutlicultism can work only if cults don't really matter.

Chalthahi was telling me he has just discovered the 11th dimension. That might be a place to try it.

Once again Kaal and I agree on the truth but have different paths to get there. ;) Mohar is right..the problem is with the horse or as in Islam's case..the Zebra. When put in the stable with the others horses, he just can't fit in because the stable wants him to remain a Zebra and enjoy his differences and his penchant for grazing open fields and unthered life of the Wild. IN a melting pot model, the stable gives the directive..lose the figging stipes yuo chutiya or get out of the stable. So the Zebra throws away his stripes and and becomes part of the stable by regaling everyone with his stories of the Wild but accepting the harness that is put upon him.