Democracy, not terror, is the engine of political Islam

#61 Posted by Naqshbandi.

1) I don't see a civil war ala Iraq at all. There's no sectarian divide in Pakistan. Iraq's situation is that there's an ethnic cleansing of Sunnis going on by the occupying forces and their collaborators i.e. some factions of Shias who're in Government. Baghdad has already been ethnically cleansed, and now the attempt is on the entire central Iraq. There's no parallel.

2) Islamic parties reality is what I stated in the post below. So one can discount them without any further ado.

3) Leadership exists, except that it is non-political so you seldom hear about them.

4) An Islamic General? But surprisingly they only become Islamic and join the Tableeghi party after having retired. But yes that's a possibility. I just don't think any exist anymore. All were purged after the Javed Nasir and Hameed Gul episodes.

#60 Zeemax
"These are all 'Sarkari Mullahs'. Latest evidence is Falur-Rahman's distancing from the resignations by APDM after having agreed in the London APC".

Isn't it sickening? No wonder ordinary muslims get pissed off. With champions of faith like our maulana diesel, who needs opportunists?

"matA'e dIn-o-dAnish luT ga'I Allah vAloN kI
yeh kis kAfir adA kA ghamza'E KhUNrEz hae sAQI"

zeemax #58 No one considers the popular resistance in Pakistan to Musharraf's attempts at stepping over the basic rights of Pakistanis to be "extremism" when itis expressed as peaceful demonstrations against Musharraf's attempts at perpetuating his military dictatorship in Pakistan, and when it is expressed by the courageous stand of the Chief Justice.

Such resistance has won respect and recognition of the Pakistani people (led primarily by lawyers and journalists), and no one would label it extremism. This resistance has proved effective, forcing an arrogant dictator to go running to dubai attempting to strike "deals" with Bhutto, forcing the world to take notice of the Pakistani people, and causing even Bush to fall in line and echo the CJ's call for free and fair elections.

What is considered "extremism" normally is not the above. It is something quite different - it is attacks on innocent people in buses, planes, marketplaces.

Hope this clarifies. :-)

zeemax,
isn't the problem with that though that we will have civil war a la iraq and that it will be the ordinary man and woman who will suffer?

then again, other than revolution what is the alternative for real change? i suppose the islami parties could come in to power via the ballot box but it is inevitable that these elections will be massively rigged so that mushy's party wins.

problem is--where is the Charismatic Mainstream Muslim Leader to lead the Inqilaab? In Iran, the majority of Iranians were Shias and so could accept Khomweini as Rahbar e Azam. In Pakistan the majority Muslim population (Sunni Barelvi) does not, as yet, have a political religious figure whom everyone can unite behind.

An army-led coup which puts an islamic general in charge? This might actually be the best chance.

To expand on the following statement in the previous post:

... there are enough turncoats and opportunists in every political party's ranks...

This is where Dalrymple is wrong when he mentions the Islamo-political parties in Pakistan i.e. MMA. These are all 'Sarkari Mullahs'. Latest evidence is Falur-Rahman's distancing from the resignations by APDM after having agreed in the London APC. Even though resignations mean nothing other than depriving the presidential elections of some legitimacy, these would have led the way for the ONLY way to prevent musharraf's election i.e. in dissolution of the NWFP assembly. It is obvious this is not going to happen now, and musharraf will be duly elected by the SAME assemblies on 6 October and his ugly face will be on show for another 5 years, with BB as PM, the w.o.t will continue on track, and the bombs will continue to go off in increasing numbers.

Besides, the very same Qazi Hussain, who is complaining now about the SC's remarks, was the same person who gleefully ushered in the 17th amendment in exchange for power in two provinces.

So, Bait-Ullah Mehsud Zindabad !

SalimChauhan: You are entitled to consider what I write to be (to use your epithets) nonsensical, flatulent. You dont burden yourself with identifying what I wrote that you are commenting on, let alone provide the reason why you consider it nonsensical and flatulent. This makes it impossible for me to determine what it is that you consider "nonsensical and flatulent" and to thus improve myself.

You also call me a hypocrite and wish death upon me. And for this you mention the one issue ("Stranded Pakistanis") which you have been using for years on chowk to abuse me without burdening yourself with what my views are on this issue and the reasons for those views.

There is nothing I can do to stop you from this kind of behavior on chowk. But rest assured that I am not intimidated by such bullying.

#57 Posted by viqarm,

But for extremism, mankind would not have know freedom.

This is true. As it stands, you see one man ... just one man, holding the entire Pakistan nation by the scruff of its neck and thrashing it about here and there, and having a jolly good time doing it. And with what? With the backing of the military which is not only fed and clothed but also housed in luxury by the direct and indirect taxes of the very same poor people whom they're trampling under their boots.

So what do you do? Go the courts? Wrong. Courts can only do so much because they have their future to worry about. They can all be sent packing if the 'man' really decides to go the limit. Demonstrate in the street? Maybe but there are enough turncoats and opportunists in every political party's ranks to sabotage any mass movement. Suffer silently? Yes that's the best course for the ordinary harry particularly when it is mitigated with some petty handouts in the form of atta and/or sugar subsidies. Alla Alla Khair Salla!

But there's another way. Blow up the status-quo alongwith those who perpetuate it to kingdom come with bombs and bullets and guillotines, and start again with a new system which guarantees egalitarianism and justice, and cruel punishments for those who attempt to subvert it.

That's the only way, and it is gladly observed that it is being satisfactorily furthered.

All these concocted terms like "extremism", and "political Islam" is meaningless jargon that keeps terrorism experts and analyst employed. Ordinary experience - if only the eyes are not deliberately "widely shut" - shows that just about anyone of us can be cornered into being a "so called" extremist.

Two simple examples from the TV show "Live with Talat" yesterday:

"We will surround the election commission building, we will break in and enter, and we will tear up the papers. Let him, who can, stop us ...".

These words were not uttered by a lunatic, but by a very senior ** lawyer ** of the supreme court of Pakistan, who was on the panel.

From another panelist:

"There is no rational answer to aave hi aave. If you push my back against the wall, there are only two possibilites. I will either be at your feet, or against your throat".

When will people wake up and realize that anyone denied all legal/ethical recourse is bound to take extreme steps, rich or poor, educated or illetrate, secular or religious, fascist or democrat. It does not make any difference.

But for extremism, mankind would not have know freedom.

"The usual US response has been to retreat from its push for democracy when the "wrong" parties win. This was the case not just with the electoral victory of Hamas, but also in Egypt"

That ** was ** the case in Egypt and Palestine; but I am surprised the author has chosen to ignore what is happening ** right now **, in broad daylight, in Pakistan. A dream set up of convenience is being contrived to be put in place, in the near certain hope that it will solve all problems of the West in that region of the world. Somehow - I don't know how - even the recently rejuvenated supreme court seems to have been successfully subverted.

All this, in no way, guarantees that the nightmare is over; it may yet be upon us, the hapless bystanders ...

#21 GT
"But the question is: will the violence go much further? This indeed is a terrifying question and one simply cannot sit back and wait and watch till it happens".

More importantly, will the violence solve anything? The only prediction that can be safely made is that there will be unimaginable devastation and a lot of blood on the floor everywhere.

The terrifying feeling one has is that of a person in the middle of a highway, tied to a rock, mouth gagged, eyes fixed at the headlights of the oncoming truck still at a distance.

He can't free himself, cannot move, and cannot scream ...

Re: # 52

And Clitfon would then move further west because he would not want to be stained with malodorous sweepers of indian origin.

But then he would find himself with the sweet smelling camel and the sheikh

regards

Re: # 48
So Clif, you must be a punjabi ?

regards

ok, so the Mullahs kills the Liberaloon Pakistanis who wanted Pakistan - That is the first step.

Then the Mullahs (who are actually pro-Gandhi and Hindu Muslim togetherness - as per Manto) come to Power in Pak.

Then, Pakistan and India reunite - as the Mullahs and Gandhi wanted.

Then Osma Bin Laden becomes Khalifa / Grand Mughal of India - no biggie, we Hindus also lived under Aurangzeb.

So Muslims have to live under Islam rule but Hindus are exempt as Dhimmis.

Then Osama the Arab is killed by some local Muslim - kinda repeat of slave dynasty / Mughal succession wars.

Then Muslims kills each other - Sunni Hanafi against Wahabbi against Shia etc. Hindus continue living as Dhimmis. Local Muslims look on enviously as Hindus drink alcohol, have entertainment whereas Muslims are forced to live by Sunnah.

Ultimately, the Islamic Caliphate is reduced to Red Fort area of Delhi. Descendants of Islamic Shaikh Bin Laden and others become degenrate drunk whoremongers.

Life carried on for Hindus as before.

Could it be inferred that right now democracy would turn the wheel of history backwards because of the backward looking 'demos' still dreaming of the old saintly times, confusing the currently unattainable social justice and good governance with the personal just acts of great religious personalities centuries ago thus letting themselves led by the wish to relive history.

lol...oh the irony!!! the identity of india and pakistan alright !!!(paki heavy)

Clifton:

And this is an article on demo crazy? ...huh..