Democracy, not terror, is the engine of political Islam

#205 Jayp - I do once in a while call people "names", typically "liar". But then I substantiate this "name" by pointing to what some lie that he wrote.

As for contributions to chowk, I have contributed a few articles to chowk (all positive in nature), and when exchanging posts with posters interested in issues rather than personal insults, I refrain from that. Those articles are still there for any objective person to readily see, and my thousands of poss are there as well.

So, once again I have caught you lying. Once again I offer you the chance to disprove this, or else remain exposed as a shameless liar.

And talking of having contributed nothing to chowk other than personal insults - show me one article you have contributed to chowk. And tell me honestly if 95% of your posts over the past 10 years on chowk have been anything other than hate-mail about muslims and/or Pakistanis.

harish_hyd: The "countless" threads I have written against stereotyping have to do with Indians painting muslims/Pakistanis as terrorists. Including this one to "bubba" that you find irritating (ignoring the crap writen about muslims by him).

Get your basic facts right, then come talk to me.

Re: # 201

Dear Babbu Sahib,

Contrary to your assimilation between forward looking pagans and Muslims the bridge not only between them and their corresponding backward looking brethren but also between them remains insurmountable. Forward looking Muslims don’t disavow God but continue to believe in the oneness of God with all fundamental tenets of Islam. The theological system remains the same. What differs is their unwillingness to carry with them through the centuries the cultural aspects of Islam’s earliest history which is undoubtedly Arabic and their assertive and critical view of religious thought bringing in the changed realities on the ground which were then unknown to the people and this is in contrast with the backward looking Muslims who remain stuck in a time warp of Islamic earliest history and will not settle unless they’ve restored the circumstances of that phase of humanity in their lives.

Despite these differences, the forward looking Muslims unlike forward looking pagans keep believing in the oneness of God and hence remain alien to each other.

Other than calling people names, tahmed has not contributed anything to discussions on chowk. The man has no views on anything, other than condemning people. All his posts are personal attacks on some one or the other.

Re: # 196

"of course these are the only kind of 'muslims' which are acceptable to our friends like laddu sahib."

Naqshabandi ji,

you are a wolf in sheep's clothing- that is now clear to me. If you had shown even a bit of guts and said "La illahi.." then perhaps I would have thought that your sufism has some depth.
But , you are no different from the Moududi crap followers. and are certainly exposed from your willingness to accept violence towards idolators and payment of Gunda Tax called Jizya by them.
I do not care if Salman Khan or any muslim prays to Lord Ganesha or not - if he does good for him- his vighnas would certainly subside if he has the correct faith.
I am only worried about the the violence that faithfuls like you clearly INTEND to commit against me because I am an idolator who has rejected the message of hate arising out of Quran.
The approval of violence against idolator hindus from so -called sufi followers is even more disturbing because of the false propaganda of 'peace loving' sufism that is eing spread when the reality is completely different.
Sufis like you do not form part of the Gnostic tradition that Martin Ling talks about - you are a slur in the name of Gnostic tradition!!

#202 by tahmed32

This is what I find most irritating about you. On countless other threads, especially anything that pertains to the US and Americans, you wax eloquently about how we should avoid generalizing and stereotyping. Yet at every other place and especially pertaining to Indians and Hindus and even Muslims, you jump in quickly to label them. Perhaps Salim bhai is right about you.

Sri "Bubba" Clinton #201 Alas, if only we muslims were rational and logical like hindus. :-( I understand that the perfectly rational Sri Spock of Star Trekpura fame was a hindu too.

Re: # 200

Good theory, but does not apply to most muslims' thoughts. Rational thoughts have no place in Islamic theology. When it comes to beliefs there is no place for mind, or mind keepers, whether forward looking or backward looking. If you place importance to mind being the sole executioner of Islamic faith then there could be no difference between practicing muslims or the pagans, who are being persecuted.

It appears that those pagans who have forward looking minds would be similar in their beliefs to muslims who have forward looking minds. If this is true, then there is no difference between these two groups of people. Is there?

If the forward looking Islamic mind rejects the five pillars of Islam, does he still remain a muslim?

Re: # 193

Dear KaalChakra,

You’ve raised an important question regarding the discord among Muslims with firm believe in the oneness of God, which not only induces as you’ve also said brotherhood among the believers but requires it. In this discordant picture, however, the overwhelming set of similarities can not be overlooked by an honest enquirer. You’ll hardly find discord about the oneness of God, the tradition of prophethood and its completion by Prophet Muhammed, Quran being the word of God, the responsibility before God, the system of prayers – though here you might find some minor differences in the rituals.

But I think you’ve raised this question in a socio-political context. The notion that Muslims ‘can’t take care of their business’ would have to be reconsidered when applied to earlier Muslim states very progressing in literary and political terms like Spain. Coming back to the present time, it must be accepted, however, that Muslims are in a state of disarray and disorientation with regard to the developments in the world.

In my opinion, we’ll have to distinguish between two mindsets: backward and forward looking who are involved in a tug of war. Whereas the earlier look toward the time when the Prophet lived for their understanding of the problems of the present time thus denying the existence of a clear direction given to the history by God -- which is certainly in the forward direction – and blocking the flow of ideas which results in and caused by an anti-progress state of mind, the latter don’t want to deny the existence and significance of the knowledge that the mankind has accumulated since the passing of the Prophet and see the God-given forward direction to the history and accept it. The backward looking mind in its urge to follow the prophet in order to achieve salvation wants to relive history believing that a step not in line with that of the Prophet would take the believer away from the right path and so would cost him heaven. The forward looking sees the same things but doesn’t forget the context and is able and willing to differentiate between history and the core message of religion which is and must be timeless and cultureless but able to unfold itself in any culture following certain lines. The backward looking mind feels insecure when the historical picture is no more to be seen and strives to create the same and well-acquainted situation where the believer could be certain about the ‘right’ path without the need to fathom out this way in a new situation which increases the odds of ending up in the fangs of Satan who casts doubts. Here you’ll see at least great reservations and in the extreme case an outright rejection of democracy, which is rooted in a negative image of man who could very easily be incited by Satan into erring thus overstepping his role as the slave of God by overwriting God’s will by his own which is to be seen as an affront to God.

The forward looking though no less God-loving and earnest in his search for the ‘right’ path rejects the reliving of the history and relies more on his God-given faculties to find his way in a new situation in a post-Prophet era thereby taking the risk of being abducted by Satan but his trust in God along with the conviction in the forward direction of history helps him overcome his fear. Such a mind believes that everyone possesses partial truth and no one possesses absolute truth. You’ll find here less fear of ideas and more elements of modernity like democracy. This faith in democracy is not only the result of a more positive image of man but also of fear of becoming the slave of some human being playing the vicegerent of God though without possessing the absolute truth.

I hope other friends could add a lot to this.

Re: # 198

Easy - Naqshbandi just needs to strap his suicide belt and blow up the apostate... allah will be very pleased and wil have a special batch of gilmans for him...

Freking bedouins and their stupidity - it never ends... :)

#195 Posted by Naqshbandi on September 24, 2007 2:34:25 pm


clearly said that salman apostated from his religion


apostasy? Doesn't that require you to behead him?

Lets see if you have the guts to carry that out in India..

#195
Do bareilvi see any film which is allowed by the faith.If so which movie does not have a apostate if you mean any non muslim.
Forget about laddui who listen to that lunatic bizerk fools advise

of course these are the only kind of 'muslims' which are acceptable to our friends like laddu sahib.

btw, talking of islam, the noble scholars of bareilly sharif, UP, have issued a fatwa of kufr against salman khan the actor for doing pooja at a ganesha temple and for taking an idol of the elephant-nosed idol home and doing ganpati or whatever. astaghfirullah. rightly, the scholar--and remember bareilly sharif is the headquarters of the sufi-orientated traditional islam of indo-pak--clearly said that salman apostated from his religion and if he wishes to be a muslim he must repent and read the kalimah again.

i am not going to watch that apostate's films again.

#190 SalimChauhan: My conscience is clear. I dont go running around chowk labelling people hypocrites and wishing death upon them because I dont agree with their views on any issue.

Zahid, you are most welcome. Patently, you will add significantly to our store of knowledge. As part of welcome, allow me to place before you a query that came to mind reading # 189. It's not a 'trick question' but something that non-Muslims might ask you.

Muslims, undoubtedly, have a clear universal message and an innate sense of brotherhood. Pagans, as you correctly identified, have to struggle against a patchwork of beliefs, a full rolodex of gods, and no message of any specificed brotherhood.

Yet, Muslims seem to disagree more among themselves (even in such a trivially small world as that of chowk), not only theologically but also about what they should be doing with their own societies, or with those of others.

Liberal and sufi-loving Hindus and even many muslims offer (as you must have found on chowk already) very uncharitable explanations, implying that Muslims (the people, the leaders, or both) inherently can't take care of their business, allowing internal conflict and confusion and external manipulation. This strikes me as possibly wrongheaded.

I will check back tomorrow, and would love to know your views. Thanks.