Farewell to Shimla

I studied in shimla for four years and believe me even with the rampant constructions and the swarm of holidayers it still has its charm...

Feel sad reading about the riots of 47, indeed extremes were committed on both sides of the border and it is unfortunate that simple could turn into such daemons at the behest of a few disturbed sociopathic elements.

Ofcourse the Internet is a vast repository of news items and "previously undiscovered" "confidential" reports on who killed who and what not would be popping in from time to time...i feel at the end of the day its the past....yes i will never understand the pain of loosing family members or being witness to gross violations by swarms of zealots...but then just ranting about the past conflicts will only stoke silenced fires into raging furies...peace

Mountbatten is mainly to blame. He wanted to get back to becoming the First Lord of the Admiralty and rushed Partition forward by one full year. Nehru, Jinnah and most of the others welcomed an early date without understanding the consequences. Gandhi seems to have been the lone dissenting voice.

People were surprised when Partition was announced and very few people knew about where the boundaries of the Radcliffe award were going to be. Everyone vaguely knew that Hindu strong areas would go to India and Muslim strong areas would go to Pakistan so there was a big motive in trying to evict the minorities that bagan such horrible bloodshed.

There were few people who could control the massacres. The British troops were recalled to barracks to be repatriated to Britain and the British Indian armed forces were in a confused turmoil as Hindu and Muslim officers and men going to the other country had no idea where they should report in the new countries. Thus the local cops closely allied to the local towns and villages were only too happy to look the other way.

Murad Ali Baig

Quite a description of the lovely place Shimla, a place where all came with a spirit of joy and happiness and to have a great time. I have not even dreamt about it but have heard a lot from my late Ammi, as it was often that her entire family would visit Shimla in summer time, couple of things she mentioned about shimla's will always be stuck in my mind as I aspire to be able to visit one day.
Whenever she discussed Shimla & it's beautiful scenery and high mountains she mentioned that often one would experience a cloud breezing through the home as you leave doors & windows open, while she also mentioned about the abundance of monkeys that they used to prowl freely and would pick up anything that you would leave sitting outside.
In my opinion you have described Shimla like someone drew a painting of that lovely place all over.
I am not sure if I will ever be able to go and visit all those places my parents mentioned with such pride, including Shimla, Bhopal, Agra, Banaras and Hyderabad which was their final home before migrating to Pakistan.
God only knows if it was right or wrong we all can only go so far in drawing our own conclusions taking into account the current affairs, the loss of family members and splitting of the families.
I dont find myself worthy of blaming one side or the other as to who was right and who was wrong since I was not around to experience firsthand their reasoning and the consequent decisions while I feel that all we have now is the history which is transcribed by several people in several different ways. So what's in an argument about something we know superficially specially holding our side of story none of us are going to win this argument and may only culminate bitter taste.
I feel that we should allow the be gones to be by gones and live happily ever after adding a sparkle to our lives and if we can contribute a little to others lives that could be even more wonderful.
After all we are all humans and we also know that to err is human so what is griping worth specially all these decades later when we are able to fly into all these no fly zones without tickets or visa on the internet ride and can communicate with each other.
Shouldn't we forget the wounds and start getting over them now as this has become and ever bleeding wound for all of us be it someone on the east or west side of the border.
Best wishes to all.

Re: # 1
Dehliwala:

I can assure you that this was not to point out any community for particular violence. Mob has all kinds of people and do not care about any religion.

I have a large number of Sikh friends and respect Guru Nanak for his love and empathy for common people. I have also know Sikhs who faced similar kind of atrocities in Western Punjab by the socalled Muslims.

A good friend Sardul Singh Minhas narrated his experience when his father was killed while migrating from Pakistan to India.

We have to move on while learning from the past.

Re: # 89

Mishra:

I believe it is our collective responsibility to bring out honest and true history of partition from the standpoint of common people.

I have read a number of books written by people who were in high places. We have to look at our common humanity first and keep everything else at second place.

I believe it would be worthwhile effort to create an online repository.

The key to communal harmony is to place ourselves in other people shoes and understand their point of view. In these messages, I have read very strong opinions from both sides.

My reading of true history tells me that both Hindus and Muslims suffered. The research shows that Hindus lost a great amount of property, money and businesses but muslims lost more lives.

This also makes a logical sense. The muslims at the time of partition were lagging behind in education, businesses and money.

Ultimately poor people suffered more regardless of their religion.

Nasim Hassan

IB:

"dost mitter , so who was responsible for the riots? killings?"

The beast within us and religions, which, despite what religious people say, have the potential of awakening that beast.

DM,

Ur point makes sense but Nehru is a bit eccentric. He's an internatioanalist. Even b4 Indian independence he's convening intl conferences on colonialism 4 the liberation of colonies all over the world.

The NWFP referendum preceded his somersault on Kashmir, it looks obvious though I cant make a watertight case. It's my conjecture.

Re: # 374,
dost mitter , so who was responsible for the riots? killings?

I agree with the post about Nehru/Abdullah and Lady Mountbatten's usage to make a pledge on Kashmir.

Re: # 374,
dost mitter , so who was responsible for the riots? killings?

I agree with the post about Nehru/Abdullah and Lady Mountbatten's usage to make a pledge on Kashmir.

VRV:
"The same wud have happened in Kashmir that's why Nehru backtracked."

But didn't Nehru know this when he made that pledge? Indeed, the communal atmosphere was stronger in 1947 than in the 1950s. This is why the Abdullah friendship and Edwina factor that I pointed out in post 374 makes sense.

borivilli#

There are two separate issues here; I do not agree with you on the first but do on the second.

Did Nehru need Abdullah's approval? No, he didn't. Indeed, the accession to India was delayed because of Nehru's insistence that his friend be released and be a party to the accession. He did it over the objection of everyone else in the Indian cabinet and the Dewan of Kashmir at that time, Justice Mehar Chand Mahajan, who incidentally had also served on the Punjab Boundary Commission and whose book I have read.

Why he did so? Partly because of friendship and partly because this way Nehru could claim that the accession was also supported by the largest political party in the valley, though this was not legally required. It was out of his friendship that he also insisted that the Maharaja leave his own state - this was a mean act and did not even strengthen India's moral position vis-a-vis the accession.

Another reason is provided by the recently released diaries of Edwina Mountbatten by her daughter. She claims that Mountbatten used his wife's influence over Nehru to soften his position on Kashmir, implying that without such influence, Nehru would not have made the pledge over Kashmir that he did.

On the second issue of Nehru going back on his promises, I agree with you.

BE,

Referendum is a different game. U know in NWFP, the ppl didnt elect AIML for power even in 1945-6 elections but Congress Group.

However when referendum was announced in 947 ppl voted en masse for Pakistan. The magic is the AIML drummed up the campaign as if it Hinudism Vs Islam.

The same wud have happened in Kashmir that's why Nehru backtracked.

Instead of Muslims (middle class & rich) in our subcontinent preferring live in kaffir countries in the west they must ask for creation of west-like economies and social conditions so that ppl wont ask abt religions but good lives.

I have this question for all Kashmirs wo prefer to live in UK and USA where they are more happier than they are in native Kashmir/India/Pakistan. It's civil, religious, economic rights and social security there.

Not only that Nehru after puting the sheikh in prison rigged the elections repeatedly and got his rubber stamp parliaments to pass all the accession documents, abolish sovereignty and integrate kashmir with India now we know where busharraf learnt his tricks

Nehru was one cunning sob, ofcourse he was assisted in this by quislings like abdullah's own bro in law.

VRV
Yes I saw he is being welcomed with flowers, if he was smart he would have held the referendum then

Dost Mittar i you are strong u need no ones agreement but he wanted moral and international legitamacy so he fooled abdullah, but as soon as abdullah realised so and protested, he put him in a jail and threw away the keys, if that is not hindu cunning than what is?

BE,

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BGlcCNJSKwI

That's a different Kashmir then.

#352:

"But we must ackowledge nehru was one cunning brahmin, he even fooled abdullah of kashmir into agreeing to the acsesion ."

Sheer nonsense! there was no absolutely no need for Abdullah's signature for accession, which required only the Maharaja's consent. It was Nehru's friendship which made him force the Maharaja to release Abdullah from the prison and insist that Abdullah agree to accession before accepting the Maharaja's request.

majumdar:

You cant argue with someone who changed history, created a country and all that.

Hmm.. created a country where Muslims are dominant so much so that they make an explicit rule that President/PM/army chief etc..should be Muslim.. Ok..

But isn't it the same before 1947, that Muslims were dominant in the regions that constitute Pakistan now. What's new that Jinnah brought?.

Muthu,

(He is more of a Don-quixote like character.)

You cant argue with someone who changed history, created a country and all that.

Regards

laddu:

How about "Muhn mein Allah bagal mein Chura" !!!
That would not appear contradictory at all!!

that's right..

majumdar:

I won't call Jinnah a genius by any stretch. He is more of a Don-quixote like character.

Re: # 358

Pakis would call 9/11 , an event that happened a few years back , a propaganda .

The Jewish holocaust for them is another propaganda.

For them no muslim is capable of killing any one without a 'valid' reason. So, they would certainly DENY your reports a 'propaganda'.
For them, hindus did not get slaughtered during partition - they killed themselves out of shame like in Godhra!!

Re: # 361

How about "Muhn mein Allah bagal mein Chura" !!!

That would not appear contradictory at all!!

I saw a Rushdie interview on Youtube , he said that if you bow down to the violence - it increases - that is what a dhimmi hindu is supposed to do according o the PAkis- bow down and acceept a Paki momen's blows till his head is reduced to pulp!!!

Muthu,

Ranjit has already converted to our cause.

But jokes apart the man was a genius and a man far ahead of his times in may ways particularly in the context of the IM community of his time. My major grouse against him is that he was not born in a Gujju baniya household while the "Hindu racist, casteist, fascist, misogynist, bigited freak" shud have been born in a Punjoo Sunni household.

Regards

Majumdar:

I think we can easily convince many Indians of the service done to India by Jinnah (though through the Don-quixote way) and make him a candidate for Bharat rathna.

maybe if we have enough support print his face on the one rupee note too. we should debate on this, though.. :-)

sorry borivili,

you already know that, what you guys say in hindi/urdu about hindus.. that "... ram,ram ..baagal me.."

Borivilli mian,

(I thought nhru would keep his word but he was two face like most hindus )

What are you referring to?

Regards

PS: You were supposed to visit some public libraries and prove Mohar and Laddu to be liars. What happened?

Masana I thought nhru would keep his word but he was two face like most hindus

Mantolies,

VRV may be a funny guy nut you are the liar.

Why not read Muslim League Attack on Sikhs and Hindus in the Punjab 1947
Compiled for the SGPC
by
S. GURBACHAN SINGH TALIB at

http://bharatvani.org/books/mla/

Let us have a look at chapter 11 Sind which according to you was "not really affected"

SIND

In Sind the Sikh population was not large, though the Hindus formed about 30% of-the population of the province. Out of the total non-Muslim population of 14 Lakhs, now1 only about 2 lakhs are left in Sind, the rest having come to India as refugees. The turning out of non-Muslims from Sind is very amply illustrative of the naked policy of turning out of Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan, for no other reason whatever except that they were not Muslims. There was a policy of systematic terrorization of Hindus. Their business premises were looted, their womenfolk molested, and the avenues of normal respectable life entirely closed to them. Thus, through terror and intimidation, within the period of less than a year twelve lakhs out of the fourteen lakhs of Hindus in Sind have been forced to migrate to India. This has happened in spite of the fact that in the words of Shri Mansukhani, Secretary, Sind Congress Refugee Relief Committee, New Delhi, ?not one single Muslim lost his life at the hands of Hindus in any act of retaliation or self-defence, not to talk of any act of aggression; but where from the first day of the birth of Pakistan, Hindus have been systematically done to death, by the knife, by the bullet. by the throwing out of the windows and doors of running trains. The object has been one and the goal clear. Pakistan has desired that it should be a theocratic state in the sense that all its citizens should be Muslims. This battle has been remorselessly waged on one long front of Western Pakistan.?

Hindus? houses were forcibly occupied, in Karachi and everywhere else, their property and land snatched from them, and no option left for them but to, seek a safer life free from unbearable indignities, in India.

Other portions from Shri Mansukhani?s article, quoted above. are: -

?Soon after August 15, 1947, was organised the ousting of Hindus and Sikhs from their residences and business premises, from their agricultural lands and industrial concerns.

?No Hindu?s house was his castle, he had to retreat at the point of the dagger and run away from the back-door. The Police of the Province and the War-time established Rent Control Department helped ?legally? to throw out the members of the minority community.

Traces of Hinduism Erased

?It is not an uncommon phenomenon for prominent Hindus who are sticking on to the soil of Sind to be accosted while going about even on the main streets by Muslims and threateningly asked to either embrace Islam or go out of Pakistan.

?Hindu passengers can travel by railway only for short journeys and during day time and that too at great risk of their lives.

Our Shrines

?Our Gurmandir in Karachi became lately the residence of Sydney Cotton, the smuggler of arms to Nizam?s Hyderabad of yesterday. Most of our religious places, shrines, temples and Gurdwaras have been occupied by Muslims. The scriptures have been destroyed and the valuables have been pilfered and safely appropriated. Some of these places have also been turned into mosques where the Faithful congregate and read their Friday prayers to Allah. All educational institutions are similarly occupied and converted into the Schools and Colleges for Muslims.?

(?The Tribune?-January 16, 1949)

As for the Sikhs, their elimination and extermination began at about the same time as in West Punjab. By August all Sikhs in large towns had left Sind, and came over to the Punjab. It was not infrequent for trains carrying these Sikh refugees to be attacked on the way. On the 2nd of August, Sikhs were attacked in several villages in Nawabshah District.

On the 1st September, 1947 one train was stopped at Nawabshah, and the Sikh passengers attacked. Of these 15 were killed, and 17 injured.

The only Sikhs in Sind after August, were those in the interior-small tradesmen, pedlars and craftsmen. These began to be evacuated. Their condition was described in news agency reports as being extremely miserable and pitiable, as they could not ply any trade, and were in the last stage of destitution.

So much were the Muslims indoctrinated with the gospel of hate preached over years by the Muslim League, that on the 6th January, 1948, long after killing had stopped in East Punjab, a terrible massacre of evacuee Sikhs, awaiting embarkation for India occurred at Karachi. That this was no isolated incident of its kind in Pakistan is witnessed by the terrible Gujrat massacre of the 11th January, 1948, and the Parachinar massacre of the 23rd January, 1948. These three huge massacres of Sikhs and Hindus occurred in such quick succession at a time when all attacks on the Muslims in Indian territory had ceased three months before.

Certain details of this above mentioned Karachi massacre are of interest as revealing the conspiracy, cynicism and heartlessness of the Government of Pakistan, in the matter of getting Sikhs murdered.

As for the details of the massacre, the District Magistrate?s report from Karachi is reproduced below:

?Communal trouble started in Karachi today when 184 Sikhs arrived from Shikarpur by the morning train. From the station they went to a Gurdwara near Ratan Talao. A mob of nearly 8,000 gathered on the arrival of the Sikhs and surrounded the Gurdwara and set fire to it, and started stabbing and killing and a number of persons2 were killed,?

In the town of Karachi ?there was looting in several quarters and there were four cases of arson.?3

There was looting on the next day as well, in the houses of Hindus. The situation was described in ?an appeal?, issued by the Editors of several Karachi newspapers as ?appalling? while admitting that some Muslims gave shelter to ?the Hindu victims of mob frenzy.?

In the Gurdwara, where the massacre took place, women and children were also killed, as admitted by the Sind Premier in his statement.

The result of the disturbances of January 6 was described in ?The Civil and Military Gazette? in these words:

?There was negligible loss of life suffered by the minority community (Hindus) compared to the looting that took place throughout the city?? The lives of members of the minority community (Hindus) were saved at the expense of their property.?

About 10,000 Hindus had to be kept in refugee camps, and Hindus had to be evacuated early to India, to save them from being murdered by Muslims. Looting went on uninterruptedly. So bold and open was this loot, that police and employees of the Chief Court of Sind openly participated in it. The Chief Court building was used as a dump for this loot. The Chief justice, an Englishman, his patience exhausted, had at last to intervene and stop the loot from being stacked at least in the Chief Court Building. This was the limit of the collapse of the law and good government in Pakistan.

Further facts in the situation are:

(1) About 800 Sikhs were killed in Karachi and not 184, as stated in the Pakistan communique.

(2) Not a word of regret was expressed by any responsible person in Pakistan over this tremendous loss of Sikh life. The Sind Premier made only the insulting statement that the sight of these Sikhs ?provoked? the Muslims and only added the still more insulting directive that Sikhs be not brought to Karachi ?in open carriages.? The Premier?s statement also makes it clear that no police precautions were taken for the protection of these Sikhs, whose lives were evidently so cheap that any one was at liberty to take them without the Pakistan Government moving its little finger.

The Governor-General of Pakistan, Mr. Jinnah, who sent a message of sympathy for the sufferers, did not so much as mention the Sikhs, who had been killed in overwhelming numbers. All that he said was that he had sympathy for the Hindus in their losses.

This was symptomatic of the attitude of the Pakistan Government, which did not regard Sikh life as worthy of any kind of protection and as meriting any sympathy.

The masses in Pakistan knew very well what their Government thought of any attack made on the Sikhs.

Jinnah?s statement was, furthermore an attempt to create a rift between Hindus and Sikhs, which the Muslims have been trying to, by posing to dislike the Hindus less than the Sikhs.

All these happenings occurred at a time when in India, Mahatma Gandhi undertook his last fast to get better treatment for the Indian Muslims. That was the response in Pakistan to the Mahatma?s gesture, and the faithfully carrying out of the Mahatma?s instructions by Hindus and Sikhs. Exactly when Delhi was being made safe for Muslims, in Karachi 800 Sikhs were massacred, and all Hindus looted and despoiled, had to move into refugee camps.

Footnotes:

1January, 1949.


2These were Sikhs exclusively.


3This is the Pakistan report of widespread looting of Hindu houses that went on unchecked in Karachi for a day or longer.

CARE TO DISPUTE ANY OF THIS MANTOLIES

Manto mian/Borivilli mian

Re: Partition: Don’t really have much to add except what I have said in the past. If it was OK to divide a country don’t see why it is not OK to divide a province. As far as division of Hindu majority provinces is concerned, fact is apart from maybe Malda no other district in India (including Kerala) had a Muslim majority in 1947 so your arguments hold no water.

Re: “Our white master”: Again let me quote what I had said earlier. Two parties to a dispute send lawyers to settle their dispute. One lawyer bends over and pleases both the judge and his wife, the other calls himself a rose and the judge and his wife two thorns. Who wins the case? Don’t you guys think the client of the losing side ought to whoop their lawyers behind?

Re: Kashmir: Borivilli mian has raised the point that India had double standards on the Princely States issue. And yet the fact is that Pakistan could have had Kashmir had ML declared categorically that these states fate should be decided by the faith of their people not the ruler. But they didn’t and tried to get Hyderabad, Bhopal, Junagadh and the Rajputana principalities (aided and abetted by Zubeida of Karishma Kapoor fame, a fact which pseudo secularist Benegal conveniently overlooked in the movie) into Pak. In 1947-48 India was more interested in integrating Hyderabad rather than Kashmir and would have readily settled the issue. But as rumours go Pakis were unwilling to exchange “half a continent for a piece of rock” and resorted to double standards too. So it came down to “jiski lathi uski bhains” and as the Injuns had a bigger danda, they won.

Muthu,

(I'd thank Jinnah for that and ask the Indians to award him Bharat ratna)

Yo!!! Me too all for it. Bharat Ratna for MAJ (pbuh).

Regards

PS: Ought to have been online last evening. Seem to have missed a lot of action.

Masan,

Yes I've travelled this road in the past with Manto but he writes as if there's a new audience for his falsehoods and he rations the facts to hoodwink the gullibles and cook-up new versions of history.

Ubtil u pointed out abt communal electorates he's coming up with half-baked points and half-truths.

Jinnah wanted the whole of Punjab and Bengal based ONLY on the votes of Muslims i.e he excluded the 45-49% of ppl as inconsequential.

Wasn't it racism? What is special abt Muslims? He forgets that Shias opposed Pakistan as they didnt want to live under Sunni domination (though Jinnah himself is a Shia Khoja).

Only an insane person like Manto would second such arguments.

VRV:

That's the msg of history. Well said.

nothing special in it. Anyone with a common sense can figure it out.

It is amusing to see the arguments here. Mantolives is angry that "upper caste/class" Hindus refused to be dhimmis and chose their own path.

But we must ackowledge nehru was one cunning brahmin, he even fooled abdullah of kashmir into agreeing to the acsesion .

later after the deflowering when abdullah protested that this was not the deal, he was supposed to be an equal partner not the hindu's b!@#$ he made him the prison b@#$%


yeah that's right, what else were u thinking??..
:-)

#351 Posted by masanamuthu on October 10, 2007 5:42:38 pm

That's the msg of history. Well said.

But we must ackowledge nehru was one cunning brahmin, he even fooled abdullah of kashmir into agreeing to the acsesion .

later after the deflowering when abdullah protested that this was not the deal, he was supposed to be an equal partner not the hindu's b!@#$ he made him the prison b@#$%

By any account Muslim league and Jinnah ended up losers.. One thing they did successfully was to relegate Muslim political power to obscure corners of the country.. (I mean British India and the princely states)

:-)

Kaura,

I wanted to go to Simla but contended with Dalhousie. I travelled from Amritsar to Dalhousie via Gurdaspur and Pathankot. Becoz of my green T-shirt and my suitcase (I think) I was checked at all effing bus stations.

Once I reached Dalhousie, it's picture perfect holiday.

Simla I was told is more congested and commercial.

Nostalgia -- it flourishes in our memories...If we NRI's go home, we are also saddened by the loss of our homes that we left in childhood.....

The "Lahore" and "Punjab" our brethren and elders left doesn't exist either.....It died with them too.

Muslims were not majority in Gurdaspur....because "Ahmadiyas" are not muslims ;-)) according to plate pissers....

Here is my tale of Simla travel (1989),
Simla is 2-4 hours from rural Punjab....a quick trip for prostitution and or "hill station" vacation.

They told me that there was a 'chakar' at the top of the town.....So, I walked for 2 hours.....didn't find any 'chakar'....only more houses.....it was a "chakar" that went to waste....

It was June and hot, cursed with Delhi Belly,all I had was two litres of Verka milk - fake kind...

I met a 'Sant' (holy man)aka kanjar who said he was an excellent Sant because he has 7 Fiat cars. The accommodations at the local Gurudwara, which was filled with rural bachelors from Punjab (some slept in the bathroom due to overcrowding), were not suitable for him, so, his chamchas took him to another resort for the night.....
Simla was polluted by fumes, apathy, locals looked like extras from a cheap Hindi movie.....

it is ur own so called citizens, the kashmiris , who are not cooperating with u, or is it u playing tough cop?

dude we dont want kashmir! just solve the problem amicably with the kashmiris and we can be back to being good neighbours

be,

Jinnah said the same goody goody things that once Pakistan is given we can live in eternal peace like the USA & Canada.

Once Pakistan is given the bar was raised for other princely states. Now u guys want more.

Next u'd ask for Agra & Dehli. There's no end to it.

Even now u are using strong arm tactics in Kashmir, it will never work becaus the kashmiris thmselves dont want u any more at the first oportunity they will bolt from u union.

still nothing is lost swallow ur pride and settle the issue amicably or u wil have to do it in distress on a less favorable date

VRV if u guys had not snatched Kashmir we might not have interfered in ur squabbles, the u interfered in bengal, making it inevitable that we would do he same

#340 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on October 10, 2007 3:58:58 pm

..we have another word for a person who may be honest, principled, but loses out because of someone else being shrewd, clever, and resourceful - while maybe not totally stupid, such a person is called a SUCKER.

I guess the sucker is Jinnah?

LOL!!

Manto #334

Manto Payee,
In America, as you well know, we have another word for a person who may be honest, principled, but loses out because of someone else being shrewd, clever, and resourceful - while maybe not totally stupid, such a person is called a SUCKER.

Jinnah tried to live in England in the early thirties, but the situation in India was such that he was being invited by Leaguers to take over as the tallest muslim leader outside the congress, and he himself was not happy away from the action leading a life of no consequence

Good night fellas. I am done here since people are arguing in a circular fashion and not answering the questions raised.

Re: # 334

No they shouldn't have. That would have meant nothing for their constituents.

The issue here was not whether one liked the medicine or not but whether the medicine was honestly administered.

In this case... had the medicine been honestly administered by Dr. Mountbatten and his orderly Nehru... it would have still worked.

But they were not honest people.

If by assuming that they were honest... Jinnah is held to be stupid, then the speciousness of that argument, I can no longer comment on.

the congress didnt agree just like that, the british threatened them with just withdrawing without passing on sovereignty to anyone i.e. the states would be frre to go their way it was a threat of Plan Balkan

u let us use them, before the 80s we couldnt even when we wanted to, dont blame neighbours for ur marital/domestic problems

Manto,

Either Mr. Jinnah was so stupid (which everyone seems to agree was not the case) or he was so desperate that he was willing to go to any extremes, offer any sacrifice, consider any fate, just to get a "moth-eaten" Pakistan. When offered choices we don't like or drugs we shouldn't want, we are taught to just say NO.

I have more respect for Nehru, Patel, and the Congress in steering the ship of Indian independence so capably that they attained for their constituents much much more than what the British would have ever given them. (T) Conceding partition of India only after agreeing to a partition of Bengal, Punjab, and Assam (without even discussing the partition of UP, CP, Bihar, or Kerala) was a clever and brilliant move. This is the point where Jinnah and AIML should have said NO.

Kashmir is the legacy of history but Gujarat is the legacy of Jinnah and his politics.

We still live with Jinnah's AIDS in India.

be,

When didnt Pakistan use IMs for its benefit. Jinnah used them all through & as a leagacy u guys want to use them.

Reality is u never stopped using them.

you can try your luck but do keep spanking/slapping your wife (kashmir, gujrat) etc it only increases our pleasure. we have and still are enjoying ourselves,)

Manto #326 {"Please be honest and see I did not raise the issue of UP, Kerala. "}

Manto,
I was not being dishonest. I do agree with you that you raised UP, Kerala as points in an argument to show the fallacy in Congress TNT position. Mind you, Jinnah NEVER exploited this point and once again I hold him to be a stupid and easily intimidated leader. I am also sincere when I accuse the Pisser-e-Zameen (Sons of the Soil) in Pakistan for not really caring about Kerala, UP, or Bihari Muslims - whether Indian or Pakistani.

I love the way you deftly circumvented the whole "stranded Pakis in BD" point I raised. You are a real lawyer sir. :)

kandivili,

She is not our wife, he is a brat, and the only way
he learns is hard way, and is learning after some
thappads.

And after liberating Bengalis, Indians are slowly
gazing towards west and see so many opportunities,
so many people need to be liberated, just like
Bengalis, Baluchis, Mohajirs, Ahmadiyas, Pakhtuns.
OK, time to get to work on all these.

ZK #287 {"my name not being mentioned by either you or IB as a fellow traveler (angry icon) and all I can think of is what Salim is angry about is... and there you said it yourself: "We are left with being unpopular, disdained, and unrewarded."

and ZK #309 {".thus acknowledging how you always condemn the massacre of the defenceless. You are a good man Salim.
...I am sure we will meet on one of our 'travels'. Till then I wish you Peace"}

ZK Sahiba,
Thank you for your posts and I sincerely apologize for both IB and myself not jumping at the chance of including you in our fellow travelers' caravan. Noting from your posts, I would love to share the dusty road with you and other fine people. Hope to "see" you again.

But MB wasnt the brightest bulb in town, honestly said Jinnah wasnt very intellectual either but he was a sharp lawyer

though he was cornered in the end by the british

he is supposed to have said to his doctor teating him in the end some baksh that it was a his biggest mistake (partition)

Re: # 321

Dear Salim,

Please be honest and see I did not raise the issue of UP, Kerala.

I merely pointed out the logical extension of what Congress' cynical use of the Two Nation Theory entailed... as opposed to Muslim League's TNT which sought to reconstitute provinces in a new federation.

Facts do speak louder than "creative" arguments. I hope you would understand that.

{"by the way the inide scoop on mountbaten is that he was gay, and edwina had a string of affairs with men before nehru, thats why MB turned a blind eye"}

Borivilli,
I have heard that too. It is said the Edwina went for black men and had several such lovers in the hot Carribean area and in America in earlier times. Now that is an awful truth for a Brahmin lover boy like Pandit Nehru. :)

shitapa u were the one who was boasting of slapping ur wife, we are only "helping" her when she came looking for a shoulder to cry on.

by the way the inide scoop on mountbaten is that he was gay, and edwina had a string of affairs with men before nehru, thats why MB turned a blind eye.

Kandivili,

bring it on. I am sure you will be sitting somewhere
in the nice corner of a nice house and cheering
some hapless lads, brainwashing them to accomplish
your wet dreams.

Manto Payee,
You raised the issue of parts of UP or Kerala being included in Pakistan. While it is a good argument on your part, what is missing (a la Tahmed Butteeswi) is any element of sincerity. Someone accused your position of being pro-land and not pro-people - regardless of faith. Unfortunately, I happen to agree with this negative remark. You can't be for TNT, you can't be for Muslims in Kerala, UP, or Bihar and then turn your back on the repatriation of 300,000 "stranded Pakis" in Bangladesh. Similarly, I think that the only reason, Pakis raise the Kashmir issue is that the source of much of our water is there. It has nothing to do with poor suffering Muslims occupied by Indian troops. Sorry, but the facts speak much louder than your effective and creative arguments.

dont blame us if ur wife comes to the neighbour

If you treat your muslims like gujrat and kashmir we have much to help

we wont even abandon the rest of the muslims in India, will always asist them whatever way we can

"It bleeds you more than it bleeds us"

Precisely what Jawaharlal Nehru said. This is the kind of mentality that led to partition violence.

as long as the kashmiris want to bleed you thats fine, its the duty of a muslim to help them against hindu demons no matter what, wont abandon them like Gurdaspur, that was then this is now

Kandivili_passenger,

Do not worry, India will be fine. India has given
enough thappads to them, the nasha of religion is
getting down, they are behaving much better these
days. Few more thappads and Kashmiris will return
back to civilized ways. You will see.

be,

It bleeds u more than it bleeds us.

Kashmir will always be a thorn in your side

VRV utar aya apni aukaad pe? thats why you have to deploy 700,000 troops ther and still your soldiers keep fregging that is the term for shooting fllow soldiers and seniors by the dozens.

That is why our kashmiri brothers and mujahids will never let you walk around without a gun

VRV utar aya apni aukaad pe? thats why you have to deploy 700,000 troops ther and still your soldiers keep fregging that is the term for shooting fllow soldiers and seniors by the dozens.

That is why our kashmiri brothers and mujahids will never let you walk around without a gun

I am afraid the great professor Masadi has no point. He has sound bytes which make no sense.

Muslim League nor its voters in Kerala or UP ever imagined that the creation of Pakistan would mean complete severance of ties with India in all possible ways. They did not imagine that the Congress would at the end act like a power hungry monster.

They voted for Muslim League's reconstitution of provinces in a new federation within or without the over all Union of India. Congress did not win any victory. By dividing Punjab and then by going back on Gurdaspur issue, Congress alone remains culpable for the violence that was unleashed. Hardly a victory on behalf of its "voters"...

It is ironic... that you change goal posts... carve up Punjab and Bengal and then claim victory on the basis of cheating?

Salim, #287 should read: and all I can think of is what Salim is also angry about...thus acknowledging how you always condemn the massacre of the defenceless. You are a good man Salim.

After Andrew Roberts had written the article, excerpts of which I presented earlier, I asked him where he had got the information to write about Jinnah in such glowing terms. He looked at me in a quizzical manner and said he was a historian. As such he had shifted through all the information and come up with the truth. Its all there, he said!

I am sure we will meet on one of our 'travels'. Till then I wish you Peace.

be,

Take Kashmir if can by force. U tried it 3 & half times. Wanna try again?

Mantolives:

That is just ridiculous as an argument.

Why so?. Congress fighting for the rights of its voters and winning is perfectly right..

Why then shouldn't pockets of UP and Kerala joined Pakistan according to Congress logic... since most of them voted for the Muslim League.

You should redirect the question to the losers of Muslim league. Do you understand masadi's point now?. that Jinnah and his Muslim league was a disaster to the Muslims of what constituted British India and the princely states..

if a pat of indh should hae gone to India then parts of UP, Bihar, Hyderabad, Gujarat, Bhopal and Delhi should have gone to Pakistan

And if hyderabadand junagadh was to go to india because of their hindu majorties then Kashmir should have gone t pakistan, if viceversa then hyderabad and junagadh should have gone to pakistan

Manto,

I dont consider AIML's argument as sacrosanct. It's flawed prima facie.

Masan,

It's 13% of the ppl who vote in elections and how a 13% voting represent the complete masses of any province? Manto is as usual trumpeting the dead instruments.

another flip flop, amritsar, ferozepur and ludhiana/jlandar had contiguos muslim majority tehsils and went entirely to India, Gurdaspur whic had three muslim majority tehsils and was a muslim majority district went to india, with one tehsil for pakistan

the boundary was to be divided on muslim and hindu majority contigous areas but then other factors were added by nehru to which liaqut and jinnah agreed thinking that the rivers would be the boundary thereby giving amritsar which lied on the other side to pakistan but no amritsar which lied on the pakian side of sutlej went to India entirly and even gurdaspur which lied on the other pakistan side of sutluj went to india, the reason ofcourse was kashmir. nehru wanted it despite it being muslim majority

but in all this let me say it was Pakistani leader ship which was equally to blame

PS: That there is a Pakistan and Hindustan in every village of India was the logical extension of Congress' cynical use of Two Nation Theory to carve up Punjab and Bengal.

It had nothing to do with Muslim League or its Two Nation Theory.

VRV,

Try and get what the argument is. It is precisely because of that ML based its demand on provinces reconstituting a new center... because it was not absolute.


Masanamuthu,

That is just ridiculous as an argument.

Why then shouldn't pockets of UP and Kerala joined Pakistan according to Congress logic... since most of them voted for the Muslim League.

So I am afraid there is no justification for Congress' insistence on partition except that it did so at the barrel of its majoritarian gun.

Mantolives:

It was Muslim League which won the election on the basis of Two Nation Theory. Congress won the election on the basis of its own vision of India. Thus the final workings of the Two Nation Theory were to be interpreted by the party that got the mandate to interpret it.

First, the mandate is based on communal electorates.

Just as the Muslim league won the votes of upper class Muslims, Congress won the votes of the upper caste/class Hindus. There was no universal suffrage and the best number I read was that only around 28% of the people are eligible for voting. and it is based on land holdings / education / govt. employment etc.. (I think)

As you rightly argue that Muslim league won the mandate of the upper class Muslims on the issue of partition, why should the Congress give up the rights of the people who actually voted for them, (let's say the Hindus of Punjab or Bengal). It makes no sense that they should voluntarily become dhimmis.. :-)

India carved out punjab and bengal on the basis of TNT but took Kashmir on the basis of secularism, then took hyderabad because it had a hindu majority and a muslim ruler, then overturned junagarh ecause a muslim ruler hadno right to accede with a majority hindu pop. but trumpetd to the world he instrument of accesion sig by a hindu/sikh ruler of a 80 t 90% ajority muslim province that is as big or bigger flip flop than secular-communal-secular

Manto,

What's a perfect argument? Why AIML had suzerianty over the lives of the unwilling population of Punjab and Bengal? How can AIML that won few provinces be the master of the outcome of constitutional developments in whole of India?

If TNT is absolute why didnt they take whole population of Muslms into Pakistan?

Insane?

Actually Jinnah's TNT is alive and kicking in all towns and villages of Gujarat. You'd like it that way that there's Pakistan & Hindustan in every village and town of Gujarat.

That's what u and Jinnah meant by TNT?

Congress did remarkable job in taking care of its
constituents, Hindus, Sikhs, and Muslims all over
India.

But AIML/PML were only too happy to assist in any
way they can in hounding out impurities all over
Pakistan, which was to be expected.

Indians obviously did not believe in TNT.
Securing Punjab and Bengal was obviously to protect
the Congress constituency which was the duty of the
Congress and it did that.
It was not about to let go its people to the
bigoted butchers, that is what their fate would have
been at the hands of psychotic AIML leaders and
their people.

No you are just too stupid to understand a perfectly good argument.

It was Muslim League which won the election on the basis of Two Nation Theory. Congress won the election on the basis of its own vision of India. Thus the final workings of the Two Nation Theory were to be interpreted by the party that got the mandate to interpret it.


Congress cynically used the same theory - for which it had no mandate- to carve up two provinces. By Congress' logic many districts of Kerala should have also gone to Pakistan.

#292 Posted by MantoLives on October 10, 2007 2:05:59 pm

Are u insane?

If AIML leaders had any shame and sense of justice,
they should have handed down parts of Sindh to India
based on 70% - 30% ratio, at least one third, that
is contiguos to India on that principle.

I guess it is too much to ask from these uncouth
bigots.

Congress had no locus standi in interpreting the Two Nation Theory.

Yeah, that's right, how dare they stopped being dhimmis..?

Buddy, what's the time there?. or r u out of the pureland?. Take some rest now..

VRV,

That is where you are wrong again:

Muslim League won the election on its platform which included a grouping of existing provinces as one state within or without the Indian Union. Since it was Muslim League's theory, and the only reason the Two Nation Theory was being accepted as a political factor was because of the League's massive victory. So in any event the partition of Bengal and Punjab went against the grain of the Muslim League's demand which was of existing constituent units to be grouped in a federation within or without the Indian Union.

Congress had no locus standi in interpreting the Two Nation Theory.

I think there will be no end to this debate.. :-)

I'll add my 2 cents.

During the early 1900s, upper caste Hindus felt that they should stop being dhimmis and acted on the plan and upper class Muslims worried that they'd lose their power and privileges acted accordingly.

Inspite of Jinnah/Nehru/Patel/Gandhi whatever happened was bound to happen and it is all GOOD. I'd thank Jinnah for that and ask the Indians to award him Bharat ratna or similar awards for his service..

'The partition was far from perfect. Congress used its majority to get Punjab and Bengal divided based on the two nation theory that it said it didn't believe in.'

Yasser,

Congress was forced to believe in that effing TNT. Therefore Congress forced Jinnah to believe the TNT within Punjab and Bengal. Jinnah again forced Congress to believe in that effing TNT in Assam.

So there...!

In all this argument, U kept of the ppl out in favour of land... u effing Manto. U wanted the land of Punjab and Bengal and didnt want the Muslims living elsewhere. Pathetic philosophy, to say the least.

The tail is curled back.

Typical sound byte. It is historically untrue and Salim knows it.

All historians hold Jinnah to be selfless. It is also well known that the decision to become the governor general was not taken till Mid-July of 1947... a whole month after June 3rd Plan... and it is also clear that Jinnah was going to retire and not play active role... but it was due to the absence of Hamidullah Khan of Bhopal that Jinnah was forced to come in to stop Mountbatten from taking over.

So I am afraid Salim Chauhan's sound byte does not make sense.

In reality the people who died at partition died just to make Nehru the Prime Minister of India.... and to give Congress a free hand. Millions were displaced because Mountbatten brought forward the date of partition and refused to reveal the exact borders till after indepedence... all to serve the Congress' nefarious agenda.

'Too bad tens of millions had to move and a million had to die just to make Jinnah a Governor General. I think that Nehru and Patel should have listened to Gandhiji and let the egotist have his one year in the throne. '

Salimbhai,

Wah wah.

Salim, how's it going? I have just come back from a plane trip and am trying to formulate my reply to you. But "More Tar Ma Bezamir Bhutni" (laughing icon) and my name not being mentioned by either you or IB as a fellow traveler (angry icon) and all I can think of is what Salim is angry about is... and there you said it yourself: "We are left with being unpopular, disdained, and unrewarded."

Salim Chauhan,

It is quite sad to see someone who claims to speak logically take a view that is so at odds with the reality of the situation.

The partition was far from perfect. Congress used its majority to get Punjab and Bengal divided based on the two nation theory that it said it didn't believe in. It used the same Two Nation Theory that it professed against cynically even though it did not have the mandate to interpret the TNT according to its wishes.

Look... Muslim League won the election on its platform which included a grouping of existing provinces as one state within or without the Indian Union. Since it was Muslim League's theory, and the only reason the Two Nation Theory was being accepted as a political factor was because of the League's massive victory. So in any event the partition of Bengal and Punjab went against the grain of the Muslim League's demand which was of existing constituent units to be grouped in a federation within or without the Indian Union.

The problems that you highlight are because of Congress' insistence of using its majority as a weight. Add to this the last minute machinations of Mountbatten over Gurdaspur and you'll see who did what.

Accusing Jinnah - who according to all historians was neither self seeking and who had not till mid July even decide to become the Governor General- of something that he tried to prevent all along is illogical. I hope that people like you atleast stop trying to act as "neutral" and making truth a casualty.

#283 IB {"423 Cars / Bikes Stolen in Gulshan Town !!!!"}

IB Sahib,
This is clear as mud. Obviously, More Tar Ma Bezamir Bhutni is coming to town and she will need a motorcade. :)

IB Sahib,
The problem with people like us is that we say what appears to be logical to us - regardless of the consequences. We do not subscribe to the collective Kool-aid prescribed by our political, religious, or provincial leaders. We are neither jingoistically nationalist like many Indians here. We usually are not in direct communication with Allah as Brother Urstruly, and we certainly don't believe in the Trinity of Jinnah, Muslim League, and the Holy & Perfect Partition like Manto Payee.
We are left with being unpopular, disdained, and unrewarded. But I am honored and pleased to call you a fellow travler. Thanks.

Salim Bhai,
more important things to sort out ....
more then 423 Cars / Bikes Stolen in Gulshan Town !!!!

Re: # 281 Salim Bhai, the thing I love about you is your 'on the face' attitude...I agree with almost all of your posts!
although leave Manto pls, he's a gem! he might have opted Lahore - now maybe not then!
(fingers crossed)

#278 IB {"the reason why he gave Lahore to Pakistan was because (according to his versioin ) he gave away Calcutta to India!!!"}

IB Sahib,
Thus the logic of the British in implementing the "perfect" partition referred to by Manto Bhai.

#277 Manto {"Salim Chauhan,
I am afraid you've gotten your population numbers wrong again.... Congress used its majority to create absurdity in a perfectly logical partition."}

#279 Manto {"The choice was between Calcutta and Lahore. I am glad Lahore came our side."}

Manto Payee,
Your puzzling elation over getting Lahore would seem to suggest that you think the British were giving away "free prizes" to ungrateful Indians and Pakistanis. It's not like they were distributing Manchester, Edinburgh, or Liverpool. Come on, my friend, they were allocating our own cities and destroying them and their unfortunate inhabitants in the process.

Your biased elation over getting Lahore instead of Calcutta is exactly the type of bigotry that earned us the disloyalty and anger of Bengalis in the ensuing years.

As for my population numbers, please understand that I don't buy the British manufacture of demographics to justify the partition awards. Distributions of 51% vs 49% just seem too conveniently fine and meticulously "perfect" to me - and there was nothing perfect about that stupid partition.

Delhi had an overwhelming Muslim majority since the Sultanate days and it was only diluted after 1857 and especially since the days when the Brits moved their Indian capital from Calcutta to Delhi. Calcutta was considered a Muslim majority city as were Lucknow (just the city and not the district), Muradabad, Meerut, AligaRh, Bijnor, Muzaffarnagar, and Panipat. Also, Amritsar, Guradspur, and Ferozpur were Muslim majority areas. The Brits gave Amritsar to India because it was the Sikh holy city. Other cities in Punjab went to India to preserve the Sutlej as the guiding "natural border."

On the other hand, one could argue that many urban centers in Sind had Hindu majorities, but went to Pakistan because Sind was not being divided like Punjab and Bengal. It had already been detached from Bombay and thus the Muslim majority area of Kutch went to Gujarat in India.

I am not taking a jingoistic attitude toward partition. I consider the whole matter and the stupid process used to effect it as comical, tragic, and insane. Too bad tens of millions had to move and a million had to die just to make Jinnah a Governor General. I think that Nehru and Patel should have listened to Gandhiji and let the egotist have his one year in the throne.

The choice was between Calcutta and Lahore. I am glad Lahore came our side.