Good on ya Bangladesh!

I was about to write a similar post but you did a much better job. Great piece of writing. If only we could that same chain of events right now.

Ibrahim M Khalil

this is good news...now that the unfortunate soles are accepted, soon the legs will follow.

Ahmer: For 36 years, Bangladesh refused to give nationality to individuals living on its soil, virtually all of them born in Bangladesh and having spent their entire lives there.

So, please tell me why you are applauding the Bangladesh government?

#3
Bangladeshi government needs to be applauded for accepting the traitors (which is a soft word)_ those who sided with Pakistan Army in pillaging, murdering, killing, and raping of the bangladeshi nation. It take a big heart to forgive and accept them.

Unlike the Mohajirs of Pakistan who have yet to become a part of this country and still call themselves Hindustani. I think anyone calling himself hindustani ( i am myself part of the community) should be sent to India to live in camps along the lines of stranded Pakistanis.

vanguard #4 agreed. i was just questioning whether 36 years late deserves these accolades.

and just to add to #5: you cant brand an entire community to be traitors or berate them in any way. the bangladesh government, if it wanted to do the right thing, should have investigated and tried any individuals suspected of war crimes (i.e. killing of unarmed civilians), rather than tainting the entire community and leaving it in limbo.

as for mohajirs in Pakistan, i dont have a problem with what anyone among them chooses to call himself. my problem is with the mqm-types among them - individuals who berate other ethnicities in Pakistan and individuals who support the dictatorship on the basis of ethnic affiliations.

Tahmed: r u seriously griping at bangladesh for not giving medal of honors to the community that was inherently against the inception of there country not just only on theoratical level but actually fought to prevent it? R u really this dense or r u pretending?

#7 abu safwan: please read carefully what I have written, and you will see that far from calling for medal of honors i am saying that "should have investigated and tried any individuals suspected of war crimes (i.e. killing of unarmed civilians)". Yes, I am distinguishing between guilty individuals and the entire community, and I hope you dont think that is an invalid distinction.

Ref vanguard #4 and abu_safwaan #7

Don't try to have a reasoned discussion with Chowk's resident mullah. He would be for not branding all Biharis in Bangladesh as traitors while simultaneously branding all Hindus black for the retaliation against Muslims AFTER they torched a train carrying Hindu pilgrims in a Hindu-majority country.

He has one standard of justice for Pakistanis, one for Muslims and another for the rest of the world. And Bangladeshis, not being tall or fair and not wearing shalwar-kameezes, cannot be Muslims!

#9 harimau: i am glad truth i told you years ago is still hurting you. and is this truth so hard to bear that you have to make up lies (in true idiotlogue fashion) about my branding all hindus black, when i never said anything of the kind. The truth is that it is you who has been justifying (and still stick to this view, per your post below!!) the brutal killing of thousands of muslims in their homes as being justifiable revenge for the "torching of hindu pilgrims in a hindu-majority country".

And i never said the rest of your bs (tall fair crap).

This must be the first post i have written to you in the past couple of years - and it is the last. You are incapable of changing your mindset, and will be reborn as a caterpillar along with jay thakeray and the rest of your RSS goons.

Tahmed sahib,

Der aaye durust aaye. Govt. of Bdesh may have been late in acknowledging the stranded Pakistanis but finally they did, the Govt. of Pak has yet to acknowledge. Kudos to the B'deshi people and their Govt.

Regards

PS: How come Salimbhai hasn't joined in yet.

Ref Mullah32 #10

[#9 harimau:

You are incapable of changing your mindset, and will be reborn as a caterpillar along with jay thakeray and the rest of your RSS goons.]

When I am born a caterpillar, you would still be my sh!t.

harimau#12 that was a very clever reply.

of course, it fails to respond to anything i wrote about your lies (an idiotlogue specialty it seems) and about your inability to understand why there is no excuse for murdering innocent people.

majumdar #11 what would be correct is if the pakistan government did what i suggested earlier below the bangladesh government should have done and never did - i.e identify those individuals living in pakistan and bangladesh respectively who were guilty of war crimes (i.e. attacking innocent people) and bring them to justice.

wrt to transfer of populations, there was never any explicit formula drawn up as far as i know, and so the de facto rule applied was to allow individuals domiciled in former west pakistani provinces to return to pakistan, and for individuals domiciled in former east pakistan to stay there. So, contrary to what you believe and what this article indicates, the pakistan government never had the same obligation to accept these people, and so the bangladesh government has merely permitted 36 years to pass before doing what it should have done right away.

Tahmed sahib,

The "stranded Pakistanis" had migrated from India to Pakistan, not Bdesh. During the 1970-71, many of these people fought on the behalf of Pakistan against Bengalis. After Bdesh broke up, they wanted to be citizens of Pakistan, not Bdesh. There may not have been a legal obligation to repatriate these people to Pakistan but I do see a clear moral obligation towards them.

And if there was no legal obligation towards them the GoP may well have said so openly "Look it was your mistake to have fought for us and to want to be Pakistanis now. But there is no legal obligation on our side so we aint taking you back, so get lost"

Regards

#15 by majumdar

The "stranded Pakistanis" had migrated from India to Pakistan, not Bdesh.

Even if there was no legal obligation, not even Pakis bitterly opposed to their acceptance deny that these folks fought for Pakistan, so it is the moral obligation of the Paki govt. to have accepted them. Instead we find folks like tahmed32 vehemently arguing against their repatriation to Pakistan. If this is what the average Paki thinks (thankfully there are scores arguing against this position), B'deshi citizenship is the best thing that could have happened to them.

#15 majumdar: On the moral aspects, I think the real injusties done in 1971 were the killings of innocent people - i.e. not one individual was tried for war crimes in either Pakistan or in Bangladesh, not one cold blooded murderer brought to justice. And atrocities were committed on both sides as I can say first hand - the principal of Chittagong Public School was a family friend of ours and he was killed in cold blood by mukti bahini e.g. I also know many Bangladeshis who never wanted separation and who would, if they could, have moved to Pakistan as well. No one considers Pakistan morally bound to give them citizenship.

As far as I can tell (and I am no apologist for any Pakistani government), it was for Bangladesh to do the morally correct thing which it never did until now. Like I mentioned, this would have been to bring to justice those among the bihari community it considered as having committed war crimes, and to permit the rest of the community to full citizenship rights like all other individuals domiciled in former east pakistan province regardless of ethnicity. That is why I dont see any reason to applaud the bangladesh government for doing what it should have done 36 years ago as a moral as well as de facto legal responsibility.

harish_hyd: If by "fought for Pakistan" you mean the paramilitaries (urdu-speaking and islamic parties) that fought alongside the pakistan army, then remember that the Pakistani army was headed for POW camps in India, and was hardly in a position to take them anywhere with them. Also, talking of morality, these paramilitaries did some of the worst atrocities on civilians.

So, it is easy in a vacuum to say what is morally right - but look at the realities and a different picture emerges.

#18 by tahmed32

....then remember that the Pakistani army was headed for POW camps in India, and was hardly in a position to take them anywhere with them.

tahmed32 Sahib, I'm not talking about the time in the immediate aftermath of 1971, but the almost 3 decades since then. The Paki Armymen in the PoW camps were repatriated (and some like Tikka Khan went on to preside over more atrocities in Balochistan) without ever being questioned about their role in the butchering of Bengalis, yet the Biharis found no forgiving godfathers in West Pakistan.

Also, talking of morality, these paramilitaries did some of the worst atrocities on civilians.

And what about the atrocities committed by the Pakistani Army? Were they any less than those committed by these Biharis? Why hold the Paki Army to a different standard from the one applied to these folks?

#19 harish_hyd: I have already noted that Pakistan should have investigated and tried those charged with war crimes, so you dont need to convince me on this point. As for what happened in the three decades - like I said, legally and morally it was for bangladesh government to have done what it has done now (i.e. give citizenship to individuals domiciled in former east pakistan, regardless of ethnicity). So ask the bangladesh government why it took them so long to do what it finally did now.

harish_hyd: I have to go now, and so may not respond to anything you write right away. Have a good day.

Tahmed sahib,

(On the moral aspects, I think the real injusties done in 1971 were the killings of innocent people)

Yes. And injustice includes killing of Urdu speaking non combatants by Mukti Bahini/general as much as Bangla speaking citizens of Pak by Army/Irregulars. And both sets of perpetrators should have been brought to justice.

(I also know many Bangladeshis who never wanted separation and who would, if they could, have moved to Pakistan as well. No one considers Pakistan morally bound to give them citizenship.)

Now it is for Pakistanis to decide whether they have a moral duty to give citizenship or not. In any case Bengali speaking citizens of B'desh have been accepted as Bdesh citizens so at least these guys have not been left high and dry unlike "stranded Pakistanis" who were until recently.

Regards

Ref Mullah32 #13

In your next incarnation as caterpillar sh!t, you would be better off than your current incarnation as cockroach sh!t.

I just got a thought. does this mean Pakistan is not about islam? If so, should not they accept any Muslim who wants to be a citizen of pakistan? thinking further, are people in Azad Kashmir still pakistani? I am not sure whether they fought with pakistan army or indian army. I guess the majority are muslims.

er, good one Bangladesh !!!
here thanks to Punjabigardi, the Ponjabi's feels that Pakistan is Punjabistan and no one else belongs there.
MQM tried very hard to bring the Beharis back but apart from 1200 off families the Punjabis never gave the go-ahead.

tahmed,

as you continue calling me names, read this from a rare fellow pakistani.

from jang opinion column of today

As a general rule, Pakistanis are not happy with opinions that differ from their own. And we are unable to convey our dissatisfaction in a parliamentary, professional manner. Our Achilles' heel is to confuse the other person's difference of opinion as a personal attack on us. And, God help us, we launch into the greatest ad hominem attack there can be. Suddenly, the discussion is gone, but parents and ancestors have been exhumed and reburied. Maternal raising of children is criticised and, Lord help me, one's opponent in the argument is now either illegitimate or spreading his seed far and wide! Amazingly, one would think that the fair sex would not indulge in this Internet street-like behaviour. But alas, anger really produces a brief psychosis, and words burn my computer screen as they do the heart.

People form informal alliances based on these discussions, for it is hard to forget that insult on your laptop and the comfort that came from another friend right after. We forget the argument and begin to concentrate on personalities.

There is somethinmg no pakistani wants to talk about.

There are more than a million bangladeshis in pakistan who were working in pakistan at the time of war, and have not been given citizenship by the pakistanis.

These are the bengali muslims of pakistan, who cannot be muslims according to tahmed definition, not fair, period.

This is teh tragedy of pakistan, there is YLh whose only claim to fame is that his ancestry can be traced to saudi.
The man is supposed to be educated, and all that he is proud of is his blood line.

If ylj is the educated, even allah cannot save the illiterate

I agree 100% with jayp on this one!

Tahmed sahib,

If what Jayp has written "There are more than a million bangladeshis in pakistan who were working in pakistan at the time of war, and have not been given citizenship by the Pakistanis" is true, then this is a serious charge against the GoP.

Jayp,

The aforesaid charges that you have raised are serious enuff. But the question is have they been staying there since 1971 and have they ACTUALLY requested for a Pak citizenship. In case they haven't asked for Paki citizenship then one can't blame the GoP for it.

Regards

Re: # 29,
according at the time of fall of Dhaka, virtually all the Bangali's working in West Pakistan were Pakistani Nationals it was illegal migration from Bangladesh afterwards.

#27 Posted by jayp

“There are more than a million bangladeshis in pakistan who were working in pakistan at the time of war, and have not been given citizenship by the pakistanis.”

You are really not worth my time but #28 Posted by IB agreeing with you made me check your post.
IB,

All Bengalis had Pakistani citizenship whether they lived in Pakistan before or after 1971. So there was no need to give them citizenship again. Benaglis living in Bangladesh chose to get a new citizenship of Bangladesh. There was no need to give citizenship (in this case Bengalis in West Pakistan) to people who already had it in Pakistan.
There are tons of Bengalis in Karachi now that are Pakistani citizens. Gulshan ara syed went back to Bangldesh and came back with her husband and now lives in Isloo with her Husband Shoukat (a friend of mine) and they both have Pakistani citizenship. Shabnum and her husband Robin Ghosh lived in Pakistan long after 1971 and both had Pakistani citizenship.

Getting Pakistani citizenship is the easiest thing. All you got to do is get an ID card (it costs money, grease the palm of the ID clerks) and apply for the Passport. Lots of Bengalis who came to Karachi long after 1971 for jobs hold Pakistani ID cards and can get the Passport.

I just can’t believe that you don’t have basic information about Pakistan and pretend to be some IB officer.

#29 Posted by majumdar

Dada,
It seems to me that you are losing it too. Put you thinking hat on before posting!

jayp is worth no one's time. Poor guy is still scalded from something some Pakistani did to him 10 years ago.

He is a poignant commentary on the inferiority complex that every Indian harbors towards Pakistan really.

HP Sahib,
Sir, if you go back to my posts – what I said ‘ that the illegal migration from Bangladesh started post – 1971 fiasco.

On applying for a Permenent Pakistani Residence – one of the most difficult / major step is to get a NoC Letter from F.I.A and establish genuine grounds for your stay in Pakistan.
As to your mis-conception about greasing clerks and getting a Pakistani Citizen – that could have been a fair assesment uptill 2002 but not now thanks to a better co-ordination from NADRA, Local Councils, FIA and Ministry of Interior.
For Aliens in Pakistan – very few people know that there’s a organization formed by the Pakistani Government named National Aliens Registration Authority (NARA). It is claimed by some that the atleast 10% of the whole population of Karachi is illegal ( majority of them Afghan Nationals , Bengalis and Burmese).
The classical case of any illegal to come to Pakistan was to first get a NIC domicile certificate – which thanks to NADRA , Local Councils and relevant agencies stopped.
Bengali Community ( apart from others ) constitutes a high percentage of MQM votes where on occasions Town Nazim’s , Councellers of atleast Orangi Town were Illegal Bengalis.
FIA has a large stake in promoting illegal’s so that they could blackmail and get money from poor Bengalis, Burmese and Afghans to get money.
These Bengalis , Burmese are hard working people – and are very poor ; I personally believe that GoP should give them a chance – although GoP started a Refuge Registration Card for Afghans ; we somehow forget those who migrated from our eastern borders!
Sucide Bomber which killed Alama Turabi in Karachi turned out to be a illegal Burmese.

PS. Sir, I never claimed that I am a IB officer - I work for the police. You are more than welcome to have a cup of tea ,coffee . A message away!

Re: # 33

Hmm this is interesting.
Sochanewali baat hai kay, why should Indians harbor
inferiority complex towards Pakistan?
What does Pakistan has that India is lacking?
I think only thing ahead Pakistan is ahead is
mistreating its minorities, may be squash and
billiards, and hockey.
But what else is there to feel inferiority about?
May be geographic location????

Okay, I somehow missed on a point that there’s a systematic bias against illegal Bengalis, Burmese and Srilankan(s) in Pakistan ; whereas GoP gave over 2.15 million ‘Afghan Registration Cards’ – while ignoring over 1 million other illegal nationalities in Pakistan.
As opposed to Bengalis, Burmese who are generally law abiding people , Afghans are involved in all sorts of crime – such as encroachments, drugs, prostitution, Islamic Extremism, propagation of banned-religious hate literature and suicide bombings.

#6 Tahmed

"as for mohajirs in Pakistan, i dont have a problem with what anyone among them chooses to call himself."

I have a BIG problem if a Pakistani were to call themselves a Hindustani. That is why I object to anyone calling me a HindustanRaa. Or whatever. Formation of Pakistan was never for me – or mine – a beeelundur!

"my problem is with the mqm-types among them - individuals who berate other ethnicities in Pakistan and individuals who support the dictatorship on the basis of ethnic affiliations."

So we are speaking the same language then. I too say my problem is with the jaag panjabi jaag-types who berate other ethnicities in Pakistan and individuals who support political leaders on the basis of affiliations. I would never vote for a party whose leader calls me a chooha.

As for the name Mohajir re Pakistan - so last century!

United we stand…and grow and prosper.

JAAG PAKISTANI JAAG

#36 Posted by IB
“there’s a systematic bias against illegal Bengalis, Burmese and Srilankan(s) in Pakistan ; whereas GoP gave over 2.15 million ‘Afghan Registration Cards’ – while ignoring over 1 million other illegal nationalities in Pakistan.”

Again you make wrong assumptions. The Bengalis, Burmese and the Srilankans are illegal immigrants whereas the afghanis are legitimate refugees and they have been given this status by both Pakistan and the UN.
Afghanis are given registration cards based on their refugee status. I am surprised at your putting this as bias where there is none, at least officially.

Afghani involved in crimes is a different matter and that needs to be handled by the police and other crime prevention agencies.

Thanks for your offer.

#35 Posted by shishapa on October 3, 2007 6:16:39 am

Oh you just have an inferiority complex because manto's dad drives a maybach(cough cough) and yours doesn't.

Are any refugees legit?
Afghans came to Pakistan illegally just as Bengalis came to Pakistan. What would you call Refuges who never reported to the Refuge Camps? It is estimated that 2/3 of the Afghan’s never reported to any authorities in Pakistan and still they were offered Registration Facilities whereas, other nationalities were ignored. There is certainly institutional bias against Bengalis – where they are left out to be hounded by FIA and sometimes Police. Thanks to MQM – a lot of them become nationals.

T-Ahmed you wrote,
"my problem is with the mqm-types among them - individuals who berate other ethnicities in Pakistan and individuals who support the dictatorship on the basis of ethnic affiliations."

Aha, I think it’s the Ponjabi’s through there Punjabigardi are the one’s creating divisions amoung Pakistanis. They presume that Pakistan is Punjabistan and that other ethnicities living are alien creatures.
MQM – supports Mushraff not because he’s a urdu speaking man but because he is fair to other provinces apart from him being a liberal and a honest man unlike Punjabis who hate Muhsraff just because he’s not Punjabi.

Stop all this philosophical crap!! Those Bangla Desis did not have real estate to bring with them, unlike kashmiris about whom Pakis have wet dreams that they will bring one to the Land of Pure.

Fking Pakistani they got Pakistani in the name of All the muslims of Indian subcontinent its another matter people like Moulana Azad ,Himayun Kabir and Even Dilip Kumar Saira Banu were saw these idiots wanting everything but giving nothing sala cheat

shishapa,

The way you guys spend your entire lives abusing Pakistan and Pakistanis makes one think that you guys have pathetic personal lives... and even less confidence in your "shining" India.

The only hindoo women ..in america specially... that hate pakistanis r usually the ones that pakistanis refuse to date. Now thats not fair...i know that they need reall beef eating men 2 but wat r we suppose to do with our sense of smell? N if its really a matter of life n death for them than can't they find a friend who would have running water in there bathrooms n maybe they can take a shower..n while they r thRowing caution to the wind ..deodrant might not be bad idea either...ohh yeah n wipe that disgusting dot as well...one last thing i promise...its called cooking oil..please leave it for cooking...ur head is not capable of frying onions

First of all Ahmer Sahib, you need an Editor.

But that said (I often use an Editor too)

you have written an article that is not only right on the

money but better than what many of us could have written.

This issue has been a major problem with the GOP.

tahmed sahib and others should put a cork in it this time.

I was recently thinking about the "Right of Return" of

Nawaz Sharif and how citizens of Pakistan cannot be kept

away. I had agreed with that but would someone please file

a lawsuit against the GOP for keeping the Stranded

Pakistanis in Bangladesh away from this same right?

Maybe the "new found" powers of the Supreme Court can be

used here too.

And just maybe someone we know can take up this case when

he has time and energy left over from putting down Gandhi

and now ZAB.

The plight of the stranded Pakistanis is a national shame.

And I have heard every excuse possible for denying them

the right of returning to Pakistan. The worst excuse was

that Bangladesh was a brotherly Muslim country and should

take them.

I can only wait for the day when these hypocrites will

shut up and someone will do the right thing.

I spent years with these people called "Biharis"

This is personal!

Ras

Re: # 43

Cool, now you are expert in psychobabble also?
You Pakistanis are amazing, no wonder you needed
a country for yourselves!

Re: maffrejal #24
“I just got a thought. does this mean Pakistan is not about islam? If so, should not they accept any Muslim who wants to be a citizen of pakistan? thinking further “

There you go again, taking pot shots at the Pakistani identity. Any attempt to answer your questions would confuse the hell out of an average Pakistani.


Regards,

Faruk

Re: # 47
Probably the recommendation to seperate religion from state makes sense?

HP # 31


Pl do not dismiss the calim based some pakistani view that teh bangladeshis are all illegal immigrants , well how did they come in such large numbers????

What pakistanis call as illegal immigrants are actually erstwhile east pakistanis, bengali speaking, who were denied citzenship by an amendment to teh citizenship act...now read on
///////////////// if you care check up on the legislation and other matters.

"While many Bangla speakers in Pakistan arrived relatively recently, there is also the challenge of adjudicating the citizenship claims of Bengalis whose residence dates to the 24 years between the 1947 partition and Bangladeshi independence. The same federal committee that issued the recommendation about white passports also proposed granting Pakistani citizenship to Bengalis – not Bangladeshis – living in (West) Pakistan before the Bengali nationalist capture of Dhaka on 16 December 1971. After Bangladesh’s war of independence, fewer than 25,000 Bengalis opted to remain in Pakistan, according to NARA director general Shaikh, while most of the rest migrated to the former eastern wing. A 1978 amendment to the Citizenship Act nullified the Pakistani citizenship of those domiciled in erstwhile East Pakistan. Bengalis remaining in Pakistan were required to submit a Form E-I to the home department of their province of residence and apply for citizenship, although according to the Sindh home department, no Bengalis submitted such forms in that province after the war. Many of these people have led a precarious legal existence for the past three decades.

The government committee also held meetings with Bengali community representatives and, in response to concerns that they lack documentary proof of residence, proposed that local police officials be empowered to recommend the granting of citizenship after verification. Critics, however, say that this proposal would only lead to massive corruption among police officers. Another widely shared concern among non-citizen residents is the suspicion that the entire government registration process is merely a plot to launch deportation proceedings once particulars are known to authorities. Interior ministry officials dismiss this claim, and note that none of the 35,000 migrants registered to date have been deported. “On the contrary, we are trying to resolve their civic and social problems, including extending them educational, health and other facilities”, says one official. He also discloses that the government committee has been asked to review other countries’ immigration and citizenship policies in order to suggest improvements in Pakistan’s system."

HP 31

Some specific comments to your posts

"All Bengalis had Pakistani citizenship whether they lived in Pakistan before or after 1971. So there was no need to give them citizenship again."

That is incorrect. The change to the citizenship act in 1978 required them to get new Id. Many did not do that because it was used to make them comparable to teh urdu speaking beharis who wnated to come to pakistan from bangladesh. the negalis who lived in pakistan were so long were made pawns

"Benaglis living in Bangladesh chose to get a new citizenship of Bangladesh. There was no need to give citizenship (in this case Bengalis in West Pakistan) to people who already had it in Pakistan."

As I said before, the afghan illegals could set up business, corner the transpot sector because they were not black like the bengalis. The bengalis live in slums near the karachi port authority land eking out a living doing menial jobs, all becasue they are not fair complexioned.

There is nothing wrong with this fair complex, not many pakis dare to admit it as the reason for the plight of the bengalis vis vis that of the afghans.

Re: # 50, Jay Bhai-ya,
I agree with you 100% and that's what I had been advocating here . There's a systematic bias against people who migrated from our Eastern Borders.

Another example is of Indian Consulate in Karachi - which is close ( although there is some work going on regarding the re-opening ) but Karachi Consulate is closed just because of good'ol Punjabi's think people living in South especially Mohajirs will do something! another case is opening of borders / trade from Sind Route ?

Why my brothers/sisters from North fail to accept some facts and stop defending such actions is something I could not understand!!!!

IB: Ask Jay Thakeray about the low-caste converts who came running to Pakistan.

Jay Thakeray: Ask IB about the hindu property and jobs his papa came running to find in Pakistan in 1947.

PS: The above is an evil Pakistani plot to create rifts between mqm and rss. ;-)

#50 Posted by jayp

“The change to the citizenship act in 1978 required them to get new Id.”

I am just amazed at your persistent idiocy. First you claimed that one millions have been denied citizenship when that was shown to be false you come back with this 1978 gig.
So no one was denied citizenship and some were asked to adjust their status in 1978. That change was important as the residents of the Former Pakistan were technically still Pakistani. But that legal definition is clearly beyond your puny little brain.

“the afghan illegals could set up business, corner the transpot sector because they were not black like the bengalis.”

Afghans as long as they enjoy the refugee status granted to them by the UN are not illegal. However, I do agree that they should remain confined to the Refugee camps. They have not cornered the transport sector. For your limited knowledge of Pakistan you certainly make tall claims. The transport sector in Pakistan is controlled by Pathans of Mianwali and not by Afghans or even the pathans of NWFP. They work as drivers and conductors and cleaners. So much for your stupid arguments and lack of knowledge about Pakistan. ( Mainwali is in Punjab. Imran Khan’s constituency.)

That ends my conversation with you.

#51 Posted by IB
IB,
You continue to amaze me. To read the unintelligent comments from some one who claims to have gone thru the CSS academy is painful.

#53
"residents of the Former Pakistan were technically still Pakistani. "

Fornmer east Pakistan were technically still Pakistani.

HP Sahib,
Sir someone wise said , ‘character is higher than intellect. A great soul will be strong to live as well as think’
 
And Character we lack as a nation , where we ridiculing facts on basis on of someone's nationality ( Jay-P's valid statement about bias against Pakistanis of Bengali Origin as oppose to Afghans) .
 HP Sahib
a) I agree with your points about the time frame of illegal Bengali Migration to Pakistan (post 1971)
b) I agree with your point regarding Former East Pakistanis was technically still Pakistanis but ‘techicially’ they were considered Aliens. Yes, those Bengalis who were physically present in West Pakistan during the time of Dhaka Fall had no problems.
c) My argument being is that there’s a strong opinion in Karachi and Hyderabad that the Bengalis and other illegal nationalities are discrimination as opposed to Afghans. Why a average Bengali, Burmese is not allowed to open up Business in Lahore? Is my question!!
d) Transport Sector in Karachi at least is controlled by phatans of Attock, Mianwali, Abbotabad and Tribal Areas – Afghans in Karachi are into Carpets ( used as a proxy to export drugs ) , gun crimes, car snatching and spreading religious extremism.
HP Sahib, There are always four sides to a story: your side, their side, the truth and what really happened – with due respect, branding someone idiot or unintelligent just because he/she does not take your view is a bit harsh. ( I do respect your opinions Sir , been a fan since almost 6-8 years )
t-ahmed bhai,
to your dodgy question:
a)      Refuge Properties in Karachi were incidentally distributed by great-great grand father Zafar Ahmed Chishti (who worked was one of the first ICS officers) . I could safely and proudly claim that none was used / abused during his tenure at least from (1947-1949)
b)      We personally left our pensions and estates at Fatehpur Sikri as Direct Decedents of Sheikh Salim Chishti to move to Pakistan to live in a two room government quarter named as Marton Quarters.

#55 Posted by IB

“My argument being is that there’s a strong opinion in Karachi and Hyderabad that the Bengalis and other illegal nationalities are discrimination as opposed to Afghans. Why a average Bengali, Burmese is not allowed to open up Business in Lahore? Is my question!!”

Any allegation such as this requires an authentic reference as to when and where the Burmese or the Bengalis were denied to open businesses in Lahore. Recently, I was watching about an NGO which operates schools in Machar colony, a primarily Bengali dominated area, all the businesses such as stores or the small vendors clearly were of Bengali origin. The Fish processing business at least to the point of contractors providing labor were Bengalis. So Bengalis do own the businesses in the area they dominate.
Small businesses in Pakistan are not regulated anyone can open a store or start a thela business anywhere. That has been the tradition in the subcontinent.

I am afraid your statement: “My argument being is that there’s a strong opinion in Karachi and Hyderabad that the Bengalis and other illegal nationalities are discrimination as opposed to Afghans” is just a statement. There are no Bengalis in Hyderabad so how people from Hyderabad could possibly have an opinion about that? Second, since when the urdu speaking from Hyderabad or even Karachi have become the champions of the Bengali rights in Pakistan.

I will refrain from saying something harsh but this new found love for the Bengalis is against the history of Urdu Speaking and Bengali relations in Pakistan especially during the turmoil of 1971 when the Urdu speaking were at the forefront of the campaign against Bengalis not only in East Pakistan but also in West Pakistan.

My thinking is that the Urdu speaking despite the privileges they have been provided in Pakistan, have not been able to overcome the communal sentiments they harbored in central Indian provinces. Their political unity in India depended on communalism and they continue to communalize all the issues in Pakistan also.

Well before the afghan crisis, the Afghans used to come to Pakistan and sell carpets door to door. People all over India before the partition were also familiar with this traditional business that Afghans had for over 100 years or so. I am surprised that your knowledge of our culture, our customs and regular features of our society is pathetically low bordering on ignorance. You comments show a clear lack of knowledge and understanding.

I recommend instead of cheap and fabricated stories you hear from the MQM leadership, you concentrate on learning about Pakistan and its people.

Re: # 56, thats the best you could come up with?
Punjabi Bias at best!
this is so disgusting that replying to your post would be a waste .some people never learn!

#57 Posted by IB
"Punjabi Bias at best! "

And I am not a punjabi. who is biased here?
Unfortunately, you just can't get over your communal tendencies! Before partition it was Hindu and now everyone is punjabi.

IB:
In my opinion many punjabi's were pro-musharraf until very recently. What changed was May 12th...

But I agree with you on authorities turning a complete blind eye to afghani criminal activities, mqm's no-go-area's could not have been anything like Al-Asif Square in their wildest dreams.

Re: # 58

Arrey HP bhai, why curse IB? Aap ke log bhi kuch
kam nahi the, inme aur aapme kuch farq nahi tha tab.
Just like Hindus relented and gave you guys a country, give these guys their own country, they will
stop bothering you, you will not have to worry about
them.

"Hindus relented and gave you guys a country, give these guys their own country,"

Sindh is not Hind that one can divide it easily.
You are mourning after the fact and we don't intend to mourn ever.

Re: # 61

Man, you are too cocky for a Sindhi!
Anyway, I think one of these Mohajirs is going to teach you guys a lesson one of these days, bus,
dekhtay rah jaogay.

Re: # 61

HPji,

Your attitude is almost like Raja Dahir.
Be warned, one of the mohajir M B Qasim is going to
kick your utt someday.

#62 Posted by shishapa

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]

We know history!

Who is George Satyanarayana?

Anyway, I do not think you now history.
Otherwise, you would not have tolerated a third
dictator for one day!

OK, enough bs from me. But I must say

Mohajirstan (area around Karachi up2 H'bad) Zindabad
Jinnahpur (Karachi) Zindabad

#63 Posted by shishapa
"Your attitude is almost like Raja Dahir.
Be warned, one of the mohajir M B Qasim is going to
kick your utt someday. "

utt khay kick deenda si tay hoonju moot vi pean pondoo. Sindh is not Hind!

Re: # 65, Shishapa, with all due respect - mind you own business - no one wants Jinnahpur , heck it was all madeup it been proved at the courts ; atleast on two occasions.

Sindis, have a serious genetic disorder problem - can not not progress!

Re: # 64
He was modern American ( quite rare as americans are like Punjabis practical people) philosppher and wrote few good books including I have read reason in science, and other reason in religion( not ) sure .

I look at this event differently. This has exposed "hollow claims " of MQM leadership to good extent.
Sindhi ( natives) opposed tooth and nail as they correctly new if allowed over million b.desis will pour to pakistan just like if gates are open to usa for desi india and pakistan will be empty. Pakistni expanding economy is far preferable slowly sinking in water land of B.D. Last time in floods 50% of BD was under water. So rational people will like to jump from sinking ship.
Sindhi's were always fearful when they think of aftermath of partition is biggest loosers were natives. As energetic, people from India poured they were hungry for land and it was struggle for survival , no place for fairness and just like Red Indians of USA Sindhis have retreated to back waters. Two largest cities of Karachi and Sindh are not sindhi cities but Urdu speaking cities. They have legitimate complaints but their complaints have no value as similar to red indians against immigrants. The overlords of sind are not sindhis but MQM. To bring more Urdu speakers could have devastating effect on unitary nature of state. Bringing Urdus even moraly correct but in practical consideration was suiciadal as sindhjis bave retreated quite long and they are depressed and can help "Sindhi nationalist" by staring and and pouring petrol on fire.All defeated can be peaceful even in defeat if equilibrium is maintained.No body can blame sindhi speaking natives. Only person travelled at rural areas sindh can understand the anguish they feel. They maynot like punjabis but they hate MQM supremacy in Sindh.
This has exposed insincerity of MQM as they were rulers of Pakistan for atleast last 5 years of general rule. They could have brought govt to knees. But they did not care much , they gave big mouth and almost I feel they want to keep problem as sore to galvanise.Bengal Govt has exposed MQM hollowness of "crying for Biharis".They never demanded about Biharis to be brought in real sense all crocodile tears. Many times people claim one of big aim of organization and then it is washed out without whimper.
Good morning everybody.

Ahmed Madani sahib,

(just like if gates are open to usa for desi india and pakistan will be empty. )

ROTFL.

One of the truest words ever spoken in chowk. Just wonder how the native gora Americans wud react to a billion plus desis landing up in USA.

Regards

Re: # 70 Mr.Mujumdar....What is that acrinoym ROTFL stands for. never read before.
I assume your are bengali babu. Always wonder what is caste indian political leaders of years years extremist specially from that area namely Charudutta Muzumdar , Kanu Sanyal, Jangal Santhal. First is dead what about others. What was/is caste composition of CPM leadership which is from bengal of yesteryears and today.
thanks for reading comment, you are kind to comment with appreciation.
Good day.

Re: # 66 Yes MQM are dangerous people, very good to friends and worst to their enemies.All sindhis know the bitter truth. Now those Sindhis tell differently are two types one group is foolish and others are damn scared to utter.

Ahmad Madani sahib,

(ROTFL stands for)

ROTFL means rolling on the floor with laughter, which is my usual reaction after reading ur posts. Sahib, you bring out the truth in very earthy language and I always look forward to ur posts.

(I assume your are bengali babu.)

Yes.

(Always wonder what is caste indian political leaders of years years extremist specially from that area namely Charudutta Muzumdar , Kanu Sanyal, Jangal Santhal.)

Mr. Sanyal is Brahmin, Santhal a tribal, Mazumdar I dunno Majumdar is not a caste specific surname really.

(What was/is caste composition of CPM leadership)

All sorts. Buddhadeb Babu is Brhamin, Jyoti Basu Kayastha, Mr. Anil Biswas SC. WB CPM is fairly non-casteist in outlook. The ONLY good thing than can be said about them, else a complete bunch of retards.

Regards



which is from bengal of yesteryears and today.

Re: # 73
Thanks for explainung .

HP 53,

Thanks for agreeing with my assertions and here are my specific comments




"I am just amazed at your persistent idiocy. First you claimed that one millions have been denied citizenship when that was shown to be false you come back with this 1978 gig.
So no one was denied citizenship and some were asked to adjust their status in 1978."

In the earlier post you said that east pakistan was part of pakistan and hence they were naturally pakistani citizens.

Now you are telling that their status need to eb adjusted. That implies that the bengalis were not naturally pakistani citizens, their status needed to be " ADJUSTED". What does that mean my friend, an adjustment that was not required for non-bengalis.

"That change was important as the residents of the Former Pakistan were technically still Pakistani. But that legal definition is clearly beyond your puny little brain."

If they were still legally pakistani citizens, what was this adjustment, which I am sure none on chowk can understand. It is important to note that this adjustment was only for bengalis, which only your TNT infused mind can understand.



"Afghans as long as they enjoy the refugee status granted to them by the UN are not illegal."

So the afghans had a legal status as refugees because of teh UN, but the bengalis who are from east pakistan needed adjustment, eventhough according to you they were citizens of pakistan. Because of the UN, they were allowed to go anywhere in pakistan, but because of the adjustment requirements, the bengalis are in slums in port karachi.

Your arguments may make sense for the TNt educated pakistanis, but it cannot make any sense to other other than that bengalis are treated differently because of tehir colour. There is noithing wrong with it, what scout and hamidm talks about as teh beauty of pakistanis is a deeply engrained social value that guides pak policies.

I would appreciate you will accept the fact, another reality information for the pakistanis.

YLH,

I liked your new picture in the ilog. Long time since I saw a man with cuff links, button down collars and some shining things on the table.

I undestand that 70 percent of teh clothing in pakistan are second hand imports, that explains your old style outfit.

Re: # 76 Mr.Jay are you getting obsessed with YLH or what ?
As you said so went and checked YLH attire. There nothing wrong , its standard dress people in court system use. My honest suggestion leave this stuff start doing something you enjoy than just writing with poisened pen. You really get kick by criticizing any thing with named or related to pakistan.
Any way good evening for you and all.

MQM clientel has been playing the mantra of 'stranded Pakistanis' and Pakistan's responsibility toward them for a long time certainly not because of the pain of these Pakistanis which was overwhelming. Had human pain and suffering been the real issue then the same clientel would also have raised a loud voice against the pain and suffeing of the bonded labor in Pakistan -- stranded on the island of slavery. Strangely not a hiss was ever heard.

It's hard to say whose pain is more cruel -- of those who're abandoned in the camps and had to live without human dignity or of those who were also abandoned by the state to fall prey to the feudals and criminal busines mafia and have to live and work without human dignity as slaves -- but the callous and persistent silence of MQM clientel on the pain of the Pakistani bonded labor is immoral. This happens for the obvious reason that the MQM clientel has blood ties with these stranded Pakistanis in Bengladesh and not with the people in the Pakistani villages working as bonded labor.

mr. madani #77 well put. please feel sorry for miserable man, mr. jayp - he has to live with his misery 24/7, and can share his misery with the rest of chowk only part-time. :-)

zahid #78 good point.

madani saab,

If one puts up a picture of oneself on chowk, and keeps changing it, it is a fair game for any kind of criticism. YLH is one of the very few who puts up a picture of himself on chowk, and naturally he expects people to know and comment on his photo.

Mdani saab,

Do you have any advice to the thousands of madrassas of pakistan, other than being an apologist for them by telling that what they are teaching not islam. Any plans to have an article or a post to tell that madrassas are the source of terror.

Some where some has to counter the reality of pakistan, poisoned pen is no match for poisoned madrassas with such spectacular results as 9/11 and bhumian statues.

From jang of today, a piece by a pakistani, very different from you,

"In breeding and nurturing religious militancy, madressahs have played a lethal role. The pen, it seems, is bloodier than the sword and this is perfectly applicable to our madressahs. They teach negation, and hence rejection, of doctrines, rituals and moral standards different from theirs. Hence, those who profess a different creed or have a different moral standard are looked upon as an evil. Women who do not put on veil or men who do not have a beard are considered impious. Men and women who mix with one another are regarded as essentially wicked. Those who listen to music commit a grave sin. All such wicked or impious people have to be reformed -- by the use of force if need be.

The education imparted in madressahs, instead of inculcating in students a dispassionate quest for truth or at least enabling them to take to some socially useful profession, indoctrinates in them hatred for other creeds. The students are taught that only their creed is based on truth, whereas the rest are an incarnation of evil whose elimination is a most sacred duty of theirs. The reward of performing that duty, they are taught, is an everlasting life of pleasure in the paradise. Most of the students owing to their impressionable age come to believe this stuff. Hence, when they leave their institutions, their hearts are filled with the strong desire to carry out their 'sacred' duty. They also churn out sectarian propaganda in the form of inflammatory literature, which denounces followers of rival creeds as kafirs, who must either be coerced into conversion or exterminated.

Re: # 81 Mr. Jayprakash , I saw picture manto is all right and atleast not hard on my eyes.
I understand your deeper point of self adulation of male is not very appetising. But such things should be left to person himself, self pleasure and persuit happiness is fine. I will request you as elder member to understand note and forget. This are individulal things. I have learnt bad way. when my daughters grew up their mother brought cosmetic and stuff. When my daughter came to me all painted looking very pretty and wanting to know how I look became angry and threw all stuff. And blamed wife and went out out to work and evening came back it was silence. Then my wife said little sick and does not want to collge then i got worried. And asked to calm down but she was very sad, she said she can go collge to college and etter to be dead.That shattered me me as I loved little too much. I took elder and brought stuff and only my condition my wife can do such childish things. And things went good. Basically let them do that ever plaeses, why not.
Women go on grooming all time and looking in mirror I think they want to get married to good man who can protect her and her children and and take care of her children if she dies and take care in old age, so they can mature gracefully. So good looking marry guly and bald men also. Women never really fell in love as men feel like riding to haven, women are very calculating and they are analytical as children are important. But men are at problem. they never marry for women for children but for just pleasure and children is punishment when they are born as punishment. Women are so happy to have child but men are just stunned and feel oh what calamity and responsibility so shy and confused holding children, miserable.I have heard many men even in west do not shave on week end and go on sleeping. Always telling women to keep figure but he is fat he does not care about figure. If women starting kisking men for not keeping figure things can improve.
My female cat goes on grooming so she looks pretty while male cat just goes on sleeping, in summer some times with legs up in air.
So this trend if men feel happy with good attire and picture is good sign to me.

Re: # 82 hope you are not in funny mood but serious. Your points are right at therotecal level.
Now we go to real school wher more than 40 % boys and over 50% females in rural areas never go to school as their parents can not afford to feed them forget about you "ARJUNS famous petting zoo army school". In such situation these deeni madrassas are doing much more than any body can do. They are parting some basic knowledge otherwise there will be nothing. Well to do people send children to english medium getting ready to collges for exports to west. Then below one tier send children to urdu school. Rest are with parents who can not afford. So left is only avenue is is madrassas. They are doing job, I tell not to say bad words as you do similar something or shut up. Nation is not worried about education they have different prioritie. The president and primeminister our pak lands are always v out and for change they visit. These frequent vistis or visits only there is no substance. I once calculated in whole 5 years indian present rarely went out of country our is flying president.
Main reason is they do not care or love people the trait started from start. Madrassa may be medival still they impart some things, it is better to have religious school than no school. Please do not criticize poor mullahs at they have sense to know education is must , other liberals as good as dead. They are not sincere to put efforts they can start schools they do not , at least mullahs are better in they act for they believe. Our great liberals are good for talk , but always missing in action. There are sysmatic problems with liberal well meaning good people, good for nothing. Actions speak more than talk. Few liberal schools now coming are just started by "education Barraons". Taking thousands of rupees and dishing out, they have no fee schools like "mullahs". I like mullahs for they act in what they believe.
People do no individual basis, like me many times give tution for half for deserving poor student but should be hard working.
Things are complex very large of Churchillan magnitude need saviour like Churchill lead nation here on education front but no Churchill on site.
All nation is mesmarized in seeing drama of saving of skin of president and lady is waiting. Most of these characters if lined up and shot nothing anybody will miss. Its very disgusting i always felt even life under british emperial power may not be so miserable, i laugh and tears come rolling when they take of moderation, enlightment, democracy.
Any way things will improve by default,education is not even least priority. People get what they deserve, they will elect gereal. When you do good things results giving good things take time, now all sinful drama is bad things will give poison frouts and then people who helped will feel anguish will cry in wilderness.

Re: # 78 Good observations about plight of poorfarm lands, surfdom is well and alive.
Bonded labor and even labors working on farm are site of misery and its well kept secret. As population increases and modern equipments comes on farms things will even get worst. They do not as a organised group so no value and written of as worthless. Other places in world/3rd world countries have farmer labor unions.Till unions does not exist pight will continue. There are some but effect on grand scale is zero.

Re: # 79
Arjun and jayp are miserable as they show us our image in our words. Most times they are giving pakistani sources so we have to shut up. They are useful for people to think. Problem is there are good things also. I will like both of them atleast mention some times which will even good for them. They do not give good suggestions but just condemn any thing about or related to pakistan. No point on wasting of this arajun and Jayp company of bad news specialists.

Re: # 76 JAYP... your comment about 60% reused clothe is unfortunate.
They should encourage that practice all over world to save world from garbage. Reduce,reuse and recycle is modren way.
I call it ecotextile and people should make then popular.

Well said Ahmer

Its such a bezti to Pakistan! If Pak is to progress we have to put ethnicity and stuff behind and move forward as one country... the least Pak could do is give those guys dual-nationality (Pak Bengali), if it doesnt want to pay for their repatriation... but no they are too concerned getting Mushy re-elected!