The Melting Pot

masadi: You should know that, like all other plant and animal life on earth, chowk staff are in the pay of the (drum roll) E-e-e-e-e-e-evil Eli-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-te!!

Yaar Masadi, maybe they are picking on you bevcause you are FULL OF SHIT..dunno..maybe.

Even your response below is stupid. Status in the western world depends on how you look? wherever did you get this idea..ok..never mind..the immigration offical who kicked your ass back to pakiland..must have held some exalted status.

Now why the Chowk staff didn't check Kulharee's use of explicit curses but censors me when I even imply a curse is beyond reason but that is what we have come to expect of them

Kulharee writes "Wao Masadi, touched a little raw nerve there, didn’t it? But you referring to western women as “low status” is your divine calling"

It is safe to assume people whose brains are full of HD (Horse ...) cannot understand much. I was not referring to "Western Women" as low status, in fact you don't have a clue about "status", status is the position a person occupies in a society, it is the dominant in a society based on whose ideas positions are relegated, so if a fat woman (like your wife) is considered low status in the USA, and that is a fact, low status because a womans status in that country is assigned largely based on the attractiveness scael, then it is neither my problem nor the problem of Islam. Get it fool?

Wao Masadi, touched a little raw nerve there, didn’t it? But you referring to western women as “low status” is your divine calling, but god forbid someone shows you a little mirror to look at your own filthy face. Again, as I said before, you are not really very bright, and you are a self-absorbed inlovewithyourself moron who is a total outcast even in his own society. Grow up a little you little piece of pigeon shyt. Will you?

Re #120, Kulharee, the truth is always bitter especially for the self deceived. Feel free to vent on here because I give less thought to your posts than I give to the pigeon droppings outside in the driveway of my apartment. Your sewer mentality is clearly revealed by your post, and it deserves to be taken note of by Chowk Staff.

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How many of you experts on inter-racial inter-faith marriages are actually involved in one? I know Masadi is married to a Nazi (actually a Nazi married to a Masadi – a match made in haven), who else here is married to outside of their puny little circle?

#98
nb
Sorry the confusion is b/c discussion started in #26 with Ahmed sb All praise for western laws and concepts .I personnaly was not siding with the agreived husband ...not to appreciate some sort of protectiong for women .I just ratteled up the "opposite" view for the heck of argument:)

Fosa, is the whole thing a cut and paste? You can't tell from the post. I sitll wonder why your loyalties lie the way they do.

#90
Arjun bhai "this is a bad thing how"

While the white women attend PTA meeting ,watching Martha Stewart and having multiple parteners like desperate house wives in Connecticut -:)

#90 Posted by masadi on October 5, 2007 10:47:16 pm


but Asian families on average have more people working per family


Hmm....more people working means both the man and woman are working...

this is a bad thing how?

Re: # 90

How does this relate to SA Model Minority Myths? You see, we seem to think that whites, blacks and spanish people dont work very hard or are educated as we, or dont want to be. We also think that it isnt necessary for women to be breadwinners, or that SA working class communities exist or are relevant to any of our discussions. Do we really allign ourselves with the Asian American middle class because we make concrete linkages or are we just grabbing onto an Asiatic racial group more historically established than us? Any comment on the number of Asian intermarriages?

Re: # 82n.b.
"However, my question was relevant to your carrying on about women abusing the law. You seem scarred"
My little sister you dont have to be animal to fight for animal rights.You for got to notice as usual that was 'cut and paste' obviouly from the voluminous post by an indian husband

"#62 Posted by neembu on October 5, 2007 10:13:34 am
Re: # 60

There are interreligious, interracial and cross class line marriages taking place. Sorry to burst that bubble, but I know several couples who fit the above criteria. "

You are just pricking the bubble to get into it

There is exception to rule..'I have seen 'statstics

I have seen protestent versus mormon & catholic interriligous.Also irish versus Italian inter rascial & donald trump versus Marle Maple inter Class line marriages..he he he

ooops early morning after the night before blues.....

that #91 should have read


Thank you MASADA Complex. Thank you for being succinct and very lucid.

Those two posts were very informative compared to the ones previous to this (posted by you (on all threads) and many other others on this thread).

Thank you once more for not going hyperbolic!

#90 #89

MASADA Complex. Thank you for being siuccint.
Those were very informative and carried more weight the posts previous to these -

Thank you once more for going hyberbolic!

Sometimes crude (aggregated) numbers given out to show "model minority" status of the Asian Americans are highly misleading, when you disaggregate them the true picture emerges. For example you might have numbers showing parity of family incomes between white and Asian families but Asian families on average have more people working per family or they might reside in clusters in higher income/cost of living areas than whites which reside all over the country:

Read this section from


The Model Minority Myth


http://www.totse.com/en/ego/literary_genius/modelmin.html

(Quote) Their comparisons of incomes between
Asians and whites fail to recognize the regional location of the
Asian-American population. Concentrated in California, Hawaii, and
New York, Asian Americans reside largely in states with higher
incomes but also higher costs of living than the national average:
59 percent of all Asian Americans lived in these three states in
1980, compared to only 19 percent of the general population. The
use of "family incomes" by Reagan and others has been very
misleading, for Asian American families have more persons working
per family than white families. In 1980, white nuclear families in
California had only 1.6 workers per family, compared to 2.1 for
Japanese, 2.0 for immigrant Chinese, 2.2 for immigrant Filipino,
and 1.8 for immigrant Korean(this last figure is actually higher,
for many Korean women are unpaid family workers.) Thus the family
incomes of Asian Americans indicate the presence of more workers in
each family, rather than higher incomes.
Actually, in terms of personal incomes, Asian Americans have
not reached equality. In 1980 the mean personal income for white
men in California was $23,400. While Japanese men earned a
comparable income, they did so only by acquiring more
education(17.7 years compared to 16.8 years for white men twenty-
five to forty-four years old) and by working more hours(2,160 hours
compared to 2,120 hours for white men in the same age category).
In reality, then, Japanese men were still behind Caucasian men.
Income inequalities for other men were more evident: Korean men
earned only $19,200, or 82 percent of the income of white men,
Chinese men only $15,900 or 68 percent, and Filipino men only
$14,500 or 62 percent. In New York the mean personal income for
white men was $21,600, compared to only $18,900 or 88 percent for
Korean men, $16,500 or 76 percent for Filipino men, and only
$11,200 or 52 percent for Chinese men. In the San Francisco Bay
Area, Chinese-immigrant men earned only 72 percent of what their
white counterparts earned, Filipino-immigrant men 68 percent,
Korean-immigrant men 69 percent, and Vietnamese-immigrant menu 52
percent. The incomes of Asian American men were close to and
sometimes even below those of black men(68 percent) and Mexican-
American men(71 percent).
The patterns of income inequality for Asian men reflect a
structural problem: Asians tend to be located in the labor
market's secondary sector, where wages are low and promotional
prospects minimal. Asian men are clustered as janitors,
machinists, postal clerks, technicians, waiters, cooks, gardeners,
and computer programmers; they can also be found in the primary
sector, but here they are found mostly in the lower-tier levels as
architects, engineers, computer-systems analysts, pharmacists, and
schoolteachers, rather than in upper-tier levels of management and
decision making. "Labor market segmentation and restricted
mobility between sectors," observed social scientists Amado Cabezas
and Gary Kawaguchi, "help promote the economic interest and
privilege of those with capital or those in the primary sector, who
mostly are white men."
This pattern of Asian absence from the higher levels of
administration is characterized as "a glass ceiling" -- a barrier
through which top management positions can only be seen, but not
reached, by Asian Americans. While they are increasing in numbers
on university campuses as students, they are virtually nonexistent
as administrators: at Berkeley's University of California campus
where 25 percent of the students were Asian in 1987, only one out
of 102 top-level administrators was an Asian. In the United States
as a whole, only 8 percent of Asian Americans in 1988 were
"officials" and "managers," as compared to 12 percent for all
groups. Asian Americans are even more scarce in the upper strata
of the corporate hierarchy: they constituted less than half of one
percent of the 29,000 officers and directors of the nation's
thousand largest companies. Though they are highly educated, Asian
Americans are generally not present in positions of executive
leadership and decision making. "Many Asian Americans hoping to
climb the corporate ladder face an arduous ascent," the Wall Street
Journal observed. "Ironically, the same companies that pursue them
for technical jobs often shun them when filling managerial and
executive positions."
(end quote)

HP writes "Interracial marriages are so far and few that drawing any conclusions at this time would be too early and too ridiculous"

True, that is exactly what the numbers show but some self-deceived people here think its free for all, because in the West according to them, deeds matter more than race- not so. Actually out of the 2% of married couples in the UK that are interracial, the largest chunk of that 2% is made up of "mixed race" marrying the white and not an exclusive ethnicity which further shows that even interracial marriage in the puny percent is acceptible when the other has some "white" in them.

Regarding ejazharoon's post, the kind of university you will attend is skewed by race and class itself and the kind of university you attend determines your life chances and chances of success in the power structure thereafter. Except for Japanese Americans no other "Asian Americans" have reached par with the white population in income and employment, and except for white Jews no other minority is proportionately represented in the US power structure . Race is still very much a factor in the "life chances" available in the US and the Caucasians are fully incharge of power positions disproportionately in both corporate, military and the political arena...

Re: # 85

Thinkingstorm:

I'm out in the bayou backwaters of Louisiana, near Nawlins. I have lived in various states over the last 11 years, but with middle age approaching one tends to grow nostalgic about the country of origin. So here I am. Louisiana is the armpit of America and is a lot like India and Pakistan (corrupt politicians, racial and religious bigotry, potholed roads, spicy food, even a guy named Jindal running for governor).

Who says you can never go home?

Much respect,

Ejaz

sorry, the last one was for kulharee
with much respect,
thinking storm

Kaal-

you said:

"However interesting the discussion over inter-racial relationships is, what is more pungent is the missing of Arbi-Paki relationship. Pakistanis have been living in their Ummah Lands for at least 3 decades, but it is rare (impossible is more like it) to see any, e.g., Saudi-Pakistani couples (65 year old sheikh marrying 12 year girls don’t count). Why that might be the case? "

There are 2 very simple reasons for it. The saudi arabs are very race oriented (i.e. racist), and do not marry outside thier race, and especially not with the brown muslims...who they often do not consider to be real muslims.

Actually that was only one reason :)
with much respect,
thinking storm

Ejaz...

"my idea of how God manifests himself (and you can all laugh at this one) is that he is the homeless guy on a cold winter's night on skid row, with nothing to his name but the jacket on his back"


beautiful.


Are you in LA? The mention to Skid Row got me wondering.
with much respect,
thinking storm

Ejaz...

"my idea of how God manifests himself (and you can all laugh at this one) is that he is the homeless guy on a cold winter's night on skid row, with nothing to his name but the jacket on his back"


beautiful.


Are you in LA? The mention to Skid Row got me wondering.
with much respect,
thinking storm

Interracial marriages are so far and few that drawing any conclusions at this time would be too early and too ridiculous.

From a personal pov and the people I know; One Pakistani girl via karachi, Bahrain and Chicago is married to a white artist. Her sister is married to a black dude and they both are engineers. Both girls are my nieces. When the first one married a white guy people said, "Haan!". When the second one married a black guy, people said Hoooon! Last I heard both are happily married and have kids.

One Pak girl that I knew of in Wash,DC married a white dude after ten years and two kids they are now divorced. One Indian woman I know was married to a white guy twice her age. I asked, what gives? She said, "Green Card"! I don't know if they are still married or he is dead!

Re: # 59 no, none of the above except Australia...no chowkies have met me either,so they are in no position to comment, and one chowkie thinks I am actually a man, but I would rather be single than be with a lot of the people around and on chowk. However, my question was relevant to your carrying on about women abusing the law. You seem scarred?

jang#80:

Interestingly, I know of two Hindu couples here who adopted an African daughter and raised her as a Hindu from childhood until her marriage.

DM is spot on but if the african is well educated, he is very much welcome. i know at least two couples with an african (does carribean background count?) american grooms. they show up for community events etc and seem very comfortable...sure initially there are some stares but no shunning. muslim is a tougher...hindu kids are explicitly asked not to chase muslim partners..they still do it anyways.

Re: # 78
I think it is some what in correct to compare performance of average Caucasian with post graduates of other color/race as it makes it difficult to isolate the impact of racial differences. For us to mke some judgement we have to compare people with similar education levels but different skin colors. If in a very large sample, post graduates of different skin color are performing the same than it is more accurate to say that racial differences do not matter much.

Re: # 60:

Masadi, you are right that there is not a level playing field here in the 'states. I think, though, that the dividing lines are education and initiative, not race per se. College educated and post-graduate professionals of any color and ethnic origin tend to do much better than the average Caucasian. These differences tend to persist as socially and financially successful parents open more opportunities for their offspring. The same holds true for immigrants who may lack formal education but more than make up for it in entrepreneurship and initiative. Bottom line, its not where you're from, its what you do that matters most.

#75, sorry- misunderstanding

#74, it is not that simple, it is you who are lost in the stats because you do not know what to make of them:

1. We are talking about percentage of marriages, not percentage of the population, and you have to take out the proportion of the never married from each group which will be higher for the UK whites which will alter the percent.

Next, you have to look at the age structure which will alter the percentage of the population again, most immigrant as well as third world populations have a younger population which will again alter the population percent-

Even with this crude measure you are using it still is widely unrepresented for me to conclude that most people marry within their own race i.e. are intolerable of interracial marriage, with the mainstream UK society (mostly white) being more intolerable of it than immigrants.


Arjun- shut up, you merely borrowed my point about Pakistani and Saudi inter-marriage and restated it as if it was something original you came up with. As proportion of all marriages, interracial marriages are almost non-existant, disproportionately low even given that point....

masadi that was for abu_safwaan.

Re: # 71
masadi
since coloured minority are only 10% of UK's population, if each and every one of them married white spouse that would only be 10% of UK's marriages being inter-ethnic.

#68 Posted by masadi on October 5, 2007 10:54:43 am

it doesn't work that way..you can't apply the same numbers to the majority because, well, there's more of them.

The chances of a white person meeting a white person are high
The chances of a desi meeting a white person are high

put the cw mills down and pick up a good book on statistics.

Cobra writes "Abu, what I find funny is despite your love for all things muslim and Ummah and strict marriage code you are in America!!"

Don't be an idiot and a bigot, and to put your soul at ease, I'm not in America even though America is big enough to accomodate peons like yourself from both Pakistan and India inspite of the fact that each of them "peons" is busy convincing the other to leave as if he or she will steal from their newfound "heaven". What a sorry excuse for a human being....

#70 aslam 644 wrote "masadi
you have a veeeeeery veeeery poor grasp of maths so its no point discussing it with you"

Of course once your point is disproven all you can do is hide behind slogans. Your numbers only show that the immigrants are "more accepting" of interracial marriage than mainstream white UK society, and that inter-racial marriages are still almost non-existant in UK society being a mere 2% of all marriages

masadi
you have a veeeeeery veeeery poor grasp of maths so its no point discussing it with you.

Abu, what I find funny is despite your love for all things muslim and Ummah and strict marriage code you are in America!!

Do you know there's a possibility that your siblings or their progeny may marry outside Islam or even convert!!

In order to save them from that tragedy shouldn't you rather be in a Muslim majority country where your sons can marry Arab girls!!

Now to bust the entire thesis of this article's claim of Western enlightenment and openness:

Look at aslam's stat on Pakistanis 5.2% and compare that to the total inter-racial/ethnic percent of married couples in the UK of 2%- which proves that all of the immigrant groups in the list are more accepting of inter-racial/ethnic marriage than Brit society at large (5.2 vs 2)- which puts the nail in the coffin of so-called Muslim/Immigrant backwardness and less tolerance....

#65 neembu

a "rise" in inter-class marriage does not mean that inter-class marriage has become the norm, it can increase from one out of a million to two and be a 100% increase, that still does not mean most people marry outside of their own class and that class barriers do not exist to inter-class marriage. Do your research, you'll find the same as what I am saying, and I was talking about the class structure of the US and not North Africa

#64 aslam, actually the UK is much worse, since only 2% of the marriages are inter-ethnic or inter-racial, what your stats show is not how open UK society is to inter-racial/ethnic marriage it only shows what the second generation immigrants are doing, who are a small percent of the population themselves, which proves my point of the non-white immigrant being more accepting of marrying a white spouse than a white person of marrying an immigrant- because of social status- that's why around 2% of marriages in the UK are inter-ethnic/inter-racial

Re: # 64
Masadi
It seems UK has a better record of inter-ethnic marriages.

Second generation - proportion with a white spouse or partner
Overall
Black African 15.3%
Black Caribbean 38.1%
Chinese 73.5%
Bangladeshi 11.4%
Pakistani 5.2%
Indian 14.2%
Mixed 76.3%

Men
Black African 20.9%
Black Caribbean 47.1%
Chinese 61.3%
Bangladeshi 10.4%
Pakistani 8.8%
Indian 13.0%
Mixed 81.5%

Women
Black African 9.6%
Black Caribbean 29.0%
Chinese 85.6%
Bangladeshi 12.4%
Pakistani 1.5%
Indian 15.3%
Mixed 71.1%
Source
http://acsr.anu.edu.au/APA2004/papers/2E_Muttarak.pdf

Re: # 64

Actually Masadi Sahib, its your bubble that is really busted now-women are generally better educated than men in urban areas-this summer we saw two articles, one from New York City another from North Africa, documented the rise in cross class marriages. Thats right, marriages in which educated women married men who may not have the same educational background, nor pull a corresponding income, but were marriageable material. Some women say that there arent enough educated men (supply-demand) that want an equal partner, so they marry some 18 year old, others marry for similar interests and mutual respect.

But do feel free to read my ilog in the future -I'll post evidence supporting this dynamic.

#62 neembu writes "There are interreligious, interracial and cross class line marriages taking place. Sorry to burst that bubble, but I know several couples who fit the above criteria"

You cannot bust any bubbles with that kind of "knowledge". Around 4% of married couples in the US are inter-racial, inter-ethnic of the kind you suggest are not even on the radar of social statistics. Just because you know "several", three, four, ten .....proves nothing...

In addition to #61 the segregation of males and females in SA, where the Pakistani immigrant has little chance of contact with a Saudi female on casual terms and vice versa would be another reason.....

Re: # 60

There are interreligious, interracial and cross class line marriages taking place. Sorry to burst that bubble, but I know several couples who fit the above criteria.

Kulharee writes "Pakistanis have been living in their Ummah Lands for at least 3 decades, but it is rare (impossible is more like it) to see any, e.g., Saudi-Pakistani couples "

You need to check the profile of the Pakistani immigrant that goes to Saudi Arabia versus the profile of the Pakistani immigrant (like yourself) that goes to the US, it is more of a "class" prejudice together with age difference between the immigrant that goes for education to the US and the one that goes to do manual labor in Saudi Arabia, also supplemented by language barriers rather than ethnicity per se. At higher class (wealth income profession) levels, per eligible immigrant there would be equal if not greater par of inter-ethnic marriage as the US. Unlike the US where even the higher class immigrant who wants to borrow status from a "white" wife (as you did), the norm is the lower status white female (one that is not valued in her society, either old or fat) is the one that find the Pakistani acceptible- as yours probably did. If you try to cross that barrier, then the relatives and friends of the woman "kick in" to cause all kinds of problems...

The author writes "America is a melting pot, where people are judged by their deeds and not by their ethnicity, except that people who are fortunate enough to come to this country and make it their home bring with them the prejudices of their former homeland."

Unfortunately the author does not understand either America or what prejudice is about. America is not a melting pot. America is a molding factory where everyone is molded into a particular social type where he or she will give up everything human for fakery because that is what the "market" will reward- the mold is predetermined for them they do not choose it, their elite have designed it. That mold itself though enslaving all, enslaves some more than others because...guess what... it is stratified by race, class and gender. Ethnicity is still very important in the US if you happen to have a darker skin tone, and if you happen to be black you face double jeapordy of being in a group that is deliberately and purposefully segregated on a social level from the mainstream, relegated to low paying jobs, overpopulated in the prison system and the unemployed percent even though they are a minority.

Regarding inter-ethnic marriages, have you ever tried to cross the class-line in America? There is no inter-class marriage, except as a rare exception, regarding race it is equally rigid with inter race marriage being a rare exception. Most people marry within their own class, race and religion in the US- this tells us that it is not the great "melting pot, where people are judged by their deeds". Next, the desis are much more accepting of marrying a caucasian than caucasians are of marrying desis. The reason is status in the global system where the desi wants to brush off status from a "higher status" mate while the other one will be doing a deed of charity, as they do when they hand out crumbs and then make big noise about "aid" even though they rob us blind. Now I also know through personal experience of how rigid certain U.S. parents are when their offspring dates someone of (what they consider) an "inferior" race/religion/nationality", at both extremes those living in palaces are equally bigoted as those living in trailers....So quit this happy imagery of the US when that is mere media BS that naive people have come to accept and believe....

Re: # 57
Are you wrinkilled old lonely spinstrees in Australia..atleast that some one fouched for..LOL

Re: # 57
Are you wrinkilled old lonely spinstrees in Australia..atleast that some one fouched for..LOL

You are posting unusually weird posts, even for you.

Studebaker, have you been caught out beating up women in your family? or has someone else been? For shame!

#52

In India atleast many girls marry muslim or unconditional union without dowry.
Some time with tacit consent of family too.
That does not stop the rss goons danger and risking your LIFE

Re: # 52

aslam mian,

.... but there is a difference - i have attended two hindoo weddings where the bridegroom was a non-hindoo ....... at one of these weddings there was a hindoo ceremony with a pundit, fire and all that other hindoo mumbo jumbo followed by - and get his - followed by a muslim ceremony conducted by a imam ........... needless to say, the muslim groom's parents were absent and the imam was fired from his job at the local mosque (he was already on thin ice for his 'unorthodox' views) ........

Re: # 49
To continue with discussion as you want .Conditions of Developing countries as opposed to developed industrialised Advance wht have you countries is like proverbial comparing apples and oranges.

There is special twist to laws meant to protect women in india.
Families are broken because economic condition being so it can and being used to black mail husband family and in laws


Few years back until we faced the reality with the situation of IPC498a (non-bailable, non-compoundable offence) which is worse than TADA or POTA, we never consider the effect of the misuse of the same and how this will spoil the basic foundation of institution of marriage of Indian Society. Seating on fence one will feel the same situation. With all our sincere respect to all of you, we request one of you to go the court, check with lawyer and judge. They will tell the real stats and misuse of act and abuse to age old mothers, sisters (including pregnant), father and husbands.

If you don’t believe please go though at least this three article :-
- WHO Report – Elder abuse by Daughter In LAW is the biggest problem in India .
- US Government Caution warning for marriage in India .
- ZEE TV Andha Kanoo Programe.

In Internet in Goggle Search , please search for 498 , you will find huge no of misuse story by different well known social organization and writers .

Now to kill the left out family and spoil the institution of marriage this Domestic Violence Bill Proposed by a gang of people who are secretly working .

Regarding DV Act Peco Chakravatru says: "In case of 498a, often it is possible to
prove in a black and white way that you are innocent. You can show
Cheque books, credit card bills and bank statements. But Domestic
violence is very vague to define. If you shout a bit loud, even that
can considered as DV. Now, they are saying it will be non-bailable.
The bank accounts will be frozen. The man would be thrown out of his
house and woman can stay (right to matrimonial home). Moreover, man
has to keep paying maintenance to woman by default even if she does
not apply for it."

We must understand, putting a Criminal Case against some one is not a Joke or ordering a PIZZA. If you punish a single innocent and send to jail for atleast for a day also, definitely he will come in contact to other real Criminal and after coming out from Jail what he will do???

So our sincere request to review the same immediately , as already 498a – A strong Blood Cancer already there , this DV Act will totally Kill the Institution of Marriage .
Resulting the Crime against women, illegal business, dishonest way to earn the money , blackmailing will reach in world top most level . Whole world will make us fool and will be able to weaken our basis foundation of the Indian Society. They will make fun of our Judiciary and Criminal Cases. Because in India still we fight for our Mother, sister. We can’t tolerate if any one try to abuse and send them to Jail in false case.

So if you really want to save the Institution of Marriage

 Stop abuse of elders at the name of IPC Criminal LAWS.
 Stop blind arrests innocents, without any investigation
 Stop encouraging single parenting and family breakup
 Strong Legal action against those who implicate innocents or catalyze this abuse.
 All family maters to be considered as Civil Matter case only as Criminal Case is not a Joke.

Re: # 51
Hamidm

What I gather from dost mitter’s post hindus are just as much prejudice when it comes to muslims and Africans, the question, is being selectively prejudice any better than muslims against all non-believers.

damn hypocrites

..... in the past year or so i have not been invited to two weddings that were not held because the bridegroom was an infidel .... and this despite the fact that the parents were quick to tell anyone who would listen that the guy had converted to islam ......... maybe the weddings were cancelled because the poor guy was recovering from a ritual circumcision !

........... there is something particularly abhorrent about a religion which forces parents to turn their back on their child simply because she marries outside the stinking faith !

...... and then they have the audacity to go around starving themselves for a whole month, washing their bums five times a day, and preaching love and peace on earth ....... damn hypocrites !

#48 chaltahai: of course what i write comes from my head - last i heard, that is the organ dedicated to higher level thinking (if one assumes that is what is going on on chowk). that is why i invited you to correct the figures that i recalled reading somewhere.

btw: i dont bask in reflected glory, so rest assured i am not bound to "prove" that pakistanis are better than indians or vice versa. so relax - and give me numbers if you have them from a reliable source.

Shah: I know what you mean - it is much more fun to vent disagreements on chowk than agreements. :-)

On the other hand, the discussion actually moves forward (rather then spin in a downward spiral when some Mr. Negativity joins in to switch the focus from the issue to the posters) if you agree on something to note the agreement and then add some additional insights...

Tahmed, it is only in your head..it is not true..I have heard this idiocy before and it is unfounded.

What is true is that there is a 8:1 dominance in pakis picking up sawaris at JFK tho..alhmidollahhullahgullahrasgullahallah

chaltahai: btw, taking respective indian and pakistani total populations into account, there are far more pakistani doctors than indians (i.e. while population is perhaps 8:1, doctors in the US are 2:1 as i recall reading the figures somewhere - and someone can check and conform or correct). But dont let me start an india-pakistan fight here, and stick to the subject.

It has more to do with the immigration patterns from South Asia than whitey not wanting to work at night. In the late 60's and early seventies when institutiojns like AIIMS in INdia sent truckloads of doctors was because of the shortage of trained doctors due to the draft for the military in the US. there was also a population explosion due to post war affluence.

the kids of these immigrants went into positions that their parents knew..i.e. medicine. that is why a large crop of Indian doctors are roaming the halls of medical institutions.

If you look at the kids of INdian immigrants that came in late 70's and early 80's they tend to go into a wider range of professions.

But we are not debating that are we?

We are talkign about what makes an idiot desi condemn his daughter if she marries someone other than her race and/or religion.

Re: # 43

Nor do i want to know .Non of my business .Neither do you know me

Re: # 26
Sorry My silence meant i aggee with you and not other wise but with a qualifier.
There are lot of things wrong among us.But there prejudeces against us too not to llok beyond our ethinicity.I would not mind if same acclode was given to marrying INTO our culture .I think those who have done so personally in there life have no chioce but to GLORIFY it.There two point of view .Not knowing or caring who you marry is just as admirable nor bad to choose who you want to marry

Re: # 41

Excuse me, anon multi nic choos, YOU DON'T KNOW ME. And yet, because you are a coward, you sit behind your anon nic, shaking your goat knees and posting your crap to women who don't want anything to do with you.

We've all noticed that you have ignored Tahmed's post to you, correcting your stupid excuse of an answer.

Now kindly refrain from interacting with me.

The reason you have Indians and Pakistanis doctors in the west is because, the white mieddle class didn’t find medical profession appealing because of nightshift and weekend work, one reason why you have over supply of lawyers.

#39
Samina i have been long enough to know you as as Samina Shah And thru your self admittence in up that Neembu was you.'
Wife Beater has become 'Takiya Kalam' for you i wont be upset by you .
you have called worse thinks on up .may be you are justified for i have seen worse things called by others To YOU

Re: # 26

Tahmed-Shah2 Sahib will not actually truthfully acknowledge what you are saying. But I think someone should research the rates of domestic violence in desi-gora marriages and desi-desi marriages...what do you think the outcomes would be?

Shah2 is a perfect example of defective desi thinking and misguided entitlement-he hides behind his anon nic, and refers to women's real names. What a typical example of the desi male coward and probably wife beater.

Chalta Yaar

Wher did i say Asians are NOT doctors .And they are good catch for any body including WHITE.

shah yaar, if you are gonna talk to me, you gonna have to stop stutering. what the heck are you talking about? Do you think the Italians and jews who lived on teh alower east side for generations before earning their due don't look at Lennox hill hospital and think..what the fuck..how come evey second doctor is an Indian or chinese?

#20,30
Atleat in Usa i have seen too many muslim marrying goras.Lucky Goras both Hindus And muslims dont discriminate against them.
That will open the genetic pool for both hindus and muslims

However interesting the discussion over inter-racial relationships is, what is more pungent is the missing of Arbi-Paki relationship. Pakistanis have been living in their Ummah Lands for at least 3 decades, but it is rare (impossible is more like it) to see any, e.g., Saudi-Pakistani couples (65 year old sheikh marrying 12 year girls don’t count). Why that might be the case? Any insight into that? This Abu dude should be able to shed some light on this phenomenon (or lack of it). I know the next argument will be that because Arabs as a nation are very insular, blah blah blah.. well not really, many Arabs outside of Arabia marry non-Arabs (somehow Pakis are missing from that equation). You should ask yourself, what would Prophet Mohammad do? Would he marry a Desi girl? How about a White, or a Japanese, or Mexican? Yes, he would.

Re: # 30

Mittar Sahib, I think you're right, it seems to be an OK thing with many Indian non-Muslims. I stand corrected.

Re: # 25

Chalta yar this rock and melting is also not equal.a white is not pleaed if the grom is Latino or Black or Taxi Driver Asian.May be if they are doctor or Ph.D.thinking this may improve there genetic pool.Hindua dont take it kindly to Black & muslim ( dialogue in movie Bend it like Beckham)Muslim also polish the rock atleast (hintConversion)May be thats why they killed John Lenon

Re: # 25

Chalta yar this rock and melting is also not equal.a white is not pleaed if the grom is Latino or Black or Taxi Driver Asian.May be if they are doctor or Ph.D.thinking this may improve there genetic pool.Hindua dont take it kindly to Black & muslim ( dialogue in movie Bend it like Beckham)Muslim also polish the rock atleast (hintConversion)May be thats why they killed John Lenon

Re: # 25

Chalta yar this rock and melting is also not equal.a white is not pleaed if the grom is Latino or Black or Taxi Driver Asian.May be if they are doctor or Ph.D.thinking this may improve there genetic pool.Hindua dont take it kindly to Black & muslim ( dialogue in movie Bend it like Beckham)Muslim also polish the rock atleast (hintConversion)May be thats why they killed John Lenon

Haroon Saheb:

This is more a Pakistani/Muslim problem than an Indian/Hindu problems. Indians and Hindus are okay as long as the partner is not Afro-American or Muslim. In fact, majority of the marriage receptions I have attended had a non-Indian partner and nobody even talks about his/her religion. Of course, if the partner is a Muslim or Afro-American, there won't be any reception and nobody is invited, in that case, one comes to know of such unions only through party gossips.

Inter-religious/racial unions are unavoidable. These are happening more and more even back home, at least in India. And Islam is no protection against such marriages either. Sometimes back, I read an account by a former British Muslim jehadi that he and his friends found in Islam, a nice answer to their parents' pressure to marry within their own community; the Imams in the Masjid told them that they could marry anyone as long as she was a Muslim and even better if she was not but willing to convert.

tahmed, it is a disease more than simply anachronistic thinking. people like saima like to have their cake and eat it too. They want to piss in the POT, at the same time take every advantage of the restaurant. What makes some desis think they are so much more different or better than every fucking immigrant that has come to the US? what is so special about their religion, culture etc. that the rules have to be bent in their favor? this is the disease that needs to be surgically removed. the interacial/faith marriage issue is a mere symptom of this disease. God knows if they woudl open up their gene pool a bit, the kids would live longer, be smarter and better looking. :-)

Oops Saima my Bad post # 24 is meant for SAMINA

chaltahai #25 saima shah talk of "imperialists" and "colonies" reinforces my belief that chowk is in fact a timewarp machine, where people living in the 17th century can submit posts of the world as they see it. :-)

shah jee: rest assured that when all is said and done, US (and I assume UK) are miles ahead of Pakistan (or India, I assume) wrt to preventing and correcting domestic violence. that is:

1. divorce laws take the shirt off the back of the husband in the US. i know a fellow who tried to get a divorce in Pakistan for this reason, which left his wife empty handed basically. She sued him in the US, which kicked him out of his house and put his wife and children back in there, made sure he paid for the children's education and for the upkeep of his wife for the rest of her life or if and when she remarried.

It is amazing how a little court justice works to put the fear of God on would-be wife abusers.

2. abused women shelters - the parents home is the only shelter available to most women in Pakistan. Unless they happen to be poor, in which case there are hadood laws through which they can be accused of illicit sexual relations and put behind prisons, as has happened to thousands of women in Pakistan.

3. economic independence - due to the job opportunities available, women are much less at the mercy of men.

4. joint family abuse - the flip side of the joint family system

5. social abuse - women being treated as sex objects and not as human beings with as much dignity (and indeed much more more) than any bemedalled general-president with artificially blackened hair spouting enlightened moderation talk while doing the most unenlightened things, any village elder with artifically reddened beard.

Hope you will take these facts into account before jumping to conclusions.

Saima's desire to throw the rocks(let's call them potatoes necause they are ingredients in the recipe rather than impediments towards a delicious outcome) out go againt the very nature of what a melting pot is. If u are not prepared to lose a bit of yourself (for muslims this is invariably religion) to gain so much more, then there are other places for u. Like Bradford or canada.....where they might cater to your ROCKS a little more.

Re: # 11

I think Saima Shah this is hitting too close home.
Mrs Macdonald the immigrants did not IMPORT domestic violence with there visas.It has been intricate part of your enlightened culture all along before you bnecame expert on south asia without ever visiting the whole sample and not slice of it,,,,

"Estimates are that only about a third of cases of domestic violence are actually reported in the US and UK. In other places with less attention and less support, reported cases would be still lower. According to the Centers for Disease Control, domestic violence is a serious, preventable public health problem affecting more than 32 million Americans, or more than 10% of the U.S. population (Tjaden and Thoennes 2000)."

I do not deny domestic violence occur in south asian home too both in inter racial and intra rascial.There is no quick fix to domestic violence by marrying outside get rid of this endemic problem whic even in local population is not reported so how would you know genious coco nut?

ejazharoon #20 you wrote "I think that the most sacred places on earth are libraries, where you can get closer to God by gaining new insights into his creation"

How true!! Indeed, this is what separates man from beast - the latter struggles for food and mating, the former has pretty much solved the problem of food (through domestication of plants and animals) and of mating (through domestication) and spends (or should spend) his remaining time in extending the boundries of human knowledge of creation.

blah blah blah blah blah...thats gr8...my point is that we need to be comfortable in our own skins...as long as WE r cool with our own beliefs and are at peace with meeting the LORD and quite confident that it would be a 'fruitful' conversation than i m good w/ it cause i dont have to answer for no one. I do suspect that you 'enlightened' r confused as hell...u want to be gay and be able to drink and have orgies ..but u want to have a Islamic label on that process....thats why we see these mixed prayers and Muslim homos united and mirzaee's...ohh bhai do whatever u want...its a free country..what is this fascination with posting a seal of approval from Islam on all ur absurdities. Thats my only question

Re: # 20

or that god/godesses/gods/good manifests itself through our actions, reflection, expression, creation. that fluidity and openess to all possibilities is a human instinct.

Re: # 17:

I gotta say I'm with Neembu on this one. Since I was a teenager back in the 80's, my idea of how God manifests himself (and you can all laugh at this one) is that he is the homeless guy on a cold winter's night on skid row, with nothing to his name but the jacket on his back. Well, God see's a stray dog shivering in that cold night, and God takes off his jacket and wraps it around the dog.

Also, I think that the most sacred places on earth are libraries, where you can get closer to God by gaining new insights into his creation.

OK so I'm a heretic. Hey this is a free country. Isn't that wonderful?

ohh nahii yarr... i dont have the keys...i just wanted to understand ur lunacy...n u for some reason r running away from it

Re: # 12

Hmm, was he Muslim or not? I'm not sure. Faith is such a personal thing. I do hope that he can be true to his faith while understanding and accepting that of his in-laws.

Re: # 16

In other words, you have stolen the keys of the chawkidar and are just sitting in front of the gates running your mouth as usual...?

neembu...no one did...r u capable of understanding english? i want to know ur understanding....i m not juding ...i m just saying what is that u believe Allah swt wants us to do...other than making a fool of urself 24-7

Re: # 13

And who gave you the chawkidar's keys to the gates of heaven?

Mixed marriages are on the rise in UK, but Pakistanis are lagging behind in this field.
There has been number of honour killings amongst the Pakistani community, so I think for this reason girls have to be very careful who they saddle up with. There are some brave Pakistani girls who defy their parents and marry outside the community.

Some Sikhs are just as conservative with regard to their daughters marrying outside the community, they formed a vigilante group in Birmingham the SHER-E-PANJAB group to protect the honour of Sikh girls from muslim boys.

This is for ppl who claim to be muslims...monkey-worhsippers n bhangis (i say it with love) ill smack u later for now just whither away.

Could any of you einsteins explain to me like i am a 2 yr old..what does being muslim mean 2 ya? Are you muslim just because you were unfortunate enough to be not born in Champoo-lal pujari's house or do you actually give a shit about what God and his messenger asks us to do. I am not goin to get in to a debate whether its an injunction from God that muslim women shouldnt marry non-muslims and even muslim men r asked to prefer women of faith even if they are poor, ugly over good looking non-muslims. Whether you believe in it or not my question is that do you believe that you actually will stand in front of the creator himself and there will be an interview?

What will the creator be interviewing over....i dunno maybe he'll ask about daily prayers, fasting, dealings w/ human beings etc. ...do you brain-surgeons believe in all-0-that or is it just something ur crazzy old dada jaan told u or maybe he didnt...n thats what the problem is.

Never the less i really want to know from 'enlightened moderates' what is your theory about here-after..is there sucha thing as heaven and hell.....n who would be going there...if in fact God did ask us thru his messanger to act in a certain manner n not sleep around n drink n cheat than dont u think that its rather stupid to gratify ourselves in this mere 70 yr life at the expense of a life that will be forever...off course if you believe in that kindda thing...if u dont than party on biatchess

So, Ejaz, was he Muslim or not?? Thanks for that rarity, a readbale article on chowk.

Re: # 5

what a heartbreaking story-one i'm sure abusive husbands tell their wives as they are beating them.

Re: # 6

There is a very interesting point here-and that is the privillege involved in claiming an "authentic" Muslim identity. On UP, I asked why Muslim interfaith marriages among Indo-Carribean populations was never included in "our" discussion of Muslim/subcontinent marriages. Have the exigencies of class, labor and diaspora made Indo-Caribbean Muslims no longer pukka Muslims in the eyes of the Institutional Ummah?

Saima,

I dont think that desi men are more abusive per se than any other racial/ethnic group of men-however I do think that we as a community enable, excuse, rationalize and deny the abuse -and it does exist in SA American communities- and call it "our culture".

On another note, since I am impressed by the intellectual prowess of these interactors, let me make a shameless plug for the best book I have read this year. It is titled "The Americanization of Benjamin Franklin", by Gordon Wood. This is a must-read for those of you who have always wondered what made Ben Franklin tick but were too afraid to ask.

Thanks y'all for your comments.

I think there is an implicit tradeoff involved when one immigrates to America: Your kids (and their kids) will be very different from yourself and your parents. In all likelihood, they will live life more fully, be more open to new ideas, and explore new things. And inevitably they will make some decisions that folks like us may find somewhat upsetting. In the end one has to accept that this is their life and they (when they blossom into competent, rational adults) will seek to maximize their happiness.

Which, if you think about it, is not a bad tradeoff.

Ejaz

Ejaz, for a colonized people in an imperialist world, marrying into the race that you secretly hate is difficult. I think the discomfort is common in both goras and desis. And the difference in how the issue is stated is linguistic rather than an issue about double standards. For desis everything is expressed in terms of religious identity--even racism. It is a great achievement of the post modern world, that they have unique words to describe racism. However, naming the beast doesnt mean that there is no racism here, quite contrary, there is a lot of racism everywhere.

The great melting pot has quite a few rocks in it. Instead of turning up the heat to melt us all, perhaps the melting pot should pick the rocks out. By rocks I mean the loss of identity that people suffer in the post modern world. The fear of becoming something unrecognizable, the loss of languages, ethnicities, the fact that everything western is mainstream and everything not western is termed ethnic. The fact that the language of colonized people is not their own, that their way is seen as fundamentally flawed and that is justified as a sort of survival of the fittest rather than the brutal annhilation of a civlization which is what it is.

I don't think desis are that bad or 'abusive'. That characteristic is common across race. Date a gora who drinks and watch what he is capable of. Or not only that watch the kind of movies that make him laugh and then wonder what the heck (e.g., Borat). Or hey, haven't you heard the stories of the gora who after 10 years and a kid, turns around and says I am bored, i want a divorce. Somehow abandoning a marriage and kids for 'boredom' isnt that common (yet) among the desis.

Yes, the discourse is crude rather than real. That sadly it is expressed as 'Muslim' vs. The world rather than, 'O dear, this means that in the future you won't even know what your ancestors were about, that your children will not speak their native tongue, and that though you have a good companion, it means that the very purpose of marriage to perpetuate children and a way of life is negated by this marriage.' And yes, we must grin and bear it, because this is how it is going to be in a homogenous world where we each are just cogs in a machine owned by someone else. That being ethnic is the fashion statement of a privileged few while the rest of us live it out in grey and blue. Today it is you, tomorrow it will be my children. That I am disturbed is true, but I have no platform to talk about my worry and so I must talk to you in terms that you find distasteful, namely, 'Is he Muslim?'

M/sNimbu
America still will not choose 'Nice Little Well Behaved' black or Asian boy (until they are Mr.Tibbs with above average education )OVER there own white boy.

Mr. Haroon,

I think you raise some interesting questions in terms of the double standards we apply to gender in the South Asian American community.

I would go even further and point out that a Pakistani/Indian' groom actual religious beliefs are considered irrelevant during a marriage within the Muslim community. For example, it is quite acceptable for the groom to be an atheist, an agnostic, a closet Buddhist/Hindu/Yoruba priest-the ceremony and marriage will go on and everyone will turn a blind eye. He will be spoken of affectionately by relatives and no one will in any real way care.

A South Asian Muslim/Hindu/Christian can have dated every strip worker in Las Vegas, drunken enough to make Pete Doherty look like a member of AA, but on the day of his shadi, he is everyone's golden ganesh boy, surrounded in his halo/wreath of roses. He can beat his wife, be a complete bigot, qualify as a bipolar psychotic, but at least he's one of ours.

So one thing I will point out is that it is becoming increasingly clear that the white boys that the daughters of our community are beginning to marry care about their fiancees enough to convert and at least follow traditions, norms and values of familial respect that a number of desi men are too spoiled to. The same people who ask if the gora groom has converted like it less when said gora groom treats the bride and her fam with respect, love and dignity. Sadly, I know that in some fams, marriage to a gora means not excommunication, but that the daughter will not have to put up with the nonsense of an abusive desi husband.

I wish it were different, but this aspect cannot be ignored.

periphery is important kulleee jee, it defines an extended family and community.

Unfortunately, most often, it is not supportive, and o