Musharraf’s New Ordinance Hoopla

...correction not anywhere.

#243 Posted by HP,

That is a very sane and well-considered opinion. I would agree with you except for one thing:

The drug trade is in the Khyber Agency, and not nowhere in N/S Waziristan, Bajaur or Malakand etc..

If the tribal decide to have an independent Islamic State of Waziristan, it will be the first state wholly owned by the drug pushers and the mullahs. A match made in heavens!
The mullah will have free hashish before the Maghrab namaz!
Hehehe!

#239 Posted by zeemax
"So I see you're willing to allow them to have a 'sanctuary' for Usama and Zawahiri and Mullah Umar as long as a 'referendum' supports it ..."

If that means the heat is off Pakistan, I support it. An independent Islamic emirate of Waizrstan will have to deal with the US armies and not Pakistani armies. Pakistan's role in the WOT would diminish considerably and the civilian politicians would not have to deal with the havayoon and malaoon suicide bombers in Islamabad.

This would be a win-win situation for Pakistan. However, we need to have an acceptable system of finding out what the tribal want. If they still want to remain in Pakistan, then the Drug smugglers will have to be dealt with as much force as possible and if that needs help from the US army, I will support it.

#240 Posted by HP,

This post is agreed. Now please teach the murtids like hamidm2 as well that you cannot win this war.

HP: while in the business of conducting a referendum in the tribal areas, perhaps they could also conduct a referendum in the rest of pakistan on whether khalifa musharraf would look more dashing in a new uniform (one with prison stripes).

From a civilian perspective, a continued war in the tribal areas creates a justification for the continued army involvement in the Pakistan state under the excuse that they need to fight these Havayoons and malaoons.

The war in that area benefits the army and the army would attempt to continue this war too.
The civilians in Pakistan should ask for a referendum in those areas and if the majority decides for an independent Islamic Emirate of Wazirstan, then let that become a buffer between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Pakistan should understand that it is time for Pakistan to back off from its strategic and political positions in Afghanistan. This maybe a temporary strategic retreat(as Pakistan cannot forever extract itself from that area) but eventually it will strengthen Pakistan in the Central Asian political drama that will continue for another five decades or so.

#238 Posted by HP,

So I see you're willing to allow them to have a 'sanctuary' for Usama and Zawahiri and Mullah Umar as long as a 'referendum' supports it ...

LoL ... it really appears the 'malaoon' liberals have wet their pants quite badly :)

The Havayooon and Malaoon in the tribal area are attempting to set up an "Islamic Emirate of Wazirstan" in the tribal area.

If the majority of the tribal population supports this, then the Pakistan government should not use force to stop independence and find a political settlement to this issue.

However, in those areas there is no civilized way to find out what the majority of the population wants. Assumption is that most of the tribal still support Pakistan and a small group of Arab inspired maliks, Khans, a group of drug smugglers, poppy cultivators, and Heroin distributors are behind this push for Islamic emirate of Wazirstan.

On the face of it, it appears to be a collaboration of the criminals of that area and I am sure that they are supported by some elements in the army. We know that the army has always tolerated and in some cases allowed these drug pushers in Pakistani politics for the sake of building support for the army takeovers in Pakistan.

I think the Pakistani government should allow for a referendum in those areas and seek how badly these havayoon and the malaoons want the Islamic Emirate of Wazistan.

If these malaoons want separation, then imo, no force or power can keep them in Pakistan for long and it is best to find a peaceful workable solution with them.

#236 Posted by hamidm2,

Yeah only the DG ISPR is using this martyr terminology. All the press otherwise is using "Jaan Behaqe'd" for all. Do you only listen to ISPR?

Besides the figures are all wrong. The casualties have been equal on both sides plus 30 paramilitary have been abducted, and the entire Mehsud Scouts has refused to fight.

As for the tribesmen, if you leave them alone in their area they will not bother you. Otherwise your prospects are grim.

But dreaming is not a crime :)

zeemax,

the headlines read : N. Waziristan: 45 troops martyred, 150 militants killed in 3 days

according to geo and other paki newspapers the miscreants/militants/taliban are simply being killed like ordinary hindoos and the kafirs of mecca while our brave soldiers are being martyred like the forces of medina ...... doesn't this bother you ? ..... it makes me happy - very, very, happy - because i have always advocated that these people should be exterminated like the vermin that they are ....... if you remember, i had proposed dropping a couiple of twenty thousand pound bombs on jamia hafsa to make sure that these women don't go out and breed more jihadis .... but no, nobody wanted to listen to me then .....

.... as for all this tribal bullshit - we should take a page out of the hindoo book - the way they have handled their tribesmen in the northeast is the way to go ...... there is no room for primitive tribalism in a a modern state ..... and i say this despite tht fact that many of my relatives live in and around batagram .....

I thin Indians are right there were a couple of pashtuns in Kashmir but this i just another order of magnutude

... as for "It will end up only undermining the Pakistani state and the Pakistani civil society", yes probably it will. Unless Pakistani administration wises up and leaves them alone as per the original pact with them. They have their own foreign policy, and Pakistan cannot impose its participation in WOT upon them.

majumdar/harish_hyd.

It appears both of you believe Pushtoons were involved in the Kashmir Jihad through the references to 'non-state' actors and 'utilise them for Pakistani expansionist aims in Kashmir'. This is completely false. The tribals were never involved with the Kashmir issue (except in 1948 and later Kargil which were both full-scale invasions on the behest of Pakistan), and all the Kashmir Jihad infiltrators were/are Punjabis or AJK Kashmiris.

So, all this thing that Indians say re 'blow back' for own doings is completely untrue. Pakistan never used Tribals in the Kashmiri insurgency.

Tribals are a different nation, even distinct from Pushtoons of the Pakistani settled areas, and have been completely loyal to Pakistan so far as per their pact at the time of partition. Even now, their agenda is NOT to gain power in Pakistan but simply for Pakistan to stop meddling in its affairs regarding tribals' support to Taliban in war in Afghanistan.

The Lal Masjid massacre though has created a perception amongst them for Pakistan as enemy (as openly declared now by them) because many of those male/female students were from their tribes, and they will exact fitting revenge from those responsible. Apart from that, they are the least interested in Pakistani power games.

Zeemax sahib,

(Now, the Tribals believe Pakistanis have apostated and are Kafirs as well because they are helping Kafirs against Muslims.That is sound logic.)

The original jehad against USSR ended in 1988 and that shud have been the end of story- the Pashtoon jihadis would have gone back to what they do best- kill each other which is what they basically did after 1988 and for much of the first half of 1990s. It is then that the great white hope- Bhootni and her team- got into the act deciding to utilise them for Pakistani expansionist aims in Kashmir and in Afghanistan. The rest you guys know anyway.

But tell me one thing. Who will the jihad benefit? It will end up only undermining the Pakistani state and the Pakistani civil society without giving the jihadis what they want- power in Pakistan or a Nizam e Mustafa. In short pave way for India's domination of Southern Asia. In a sense my friend YLH's crib about the jihadis being "the Hindu racist, casteist, fascist, misogynist bigoted freak" parting gift to Pakistan will come true.

Regards

"The point here is that if states to use need military force...."

should read:

"The point here is that if states need to use military force....."